[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
While I complained earlier that Molinaro's pieces are sometimes unplayable, many of the pieces fit the lute very well, and don't seem to be just transcriptions from the keyboard. (For example Fantasies No. 3 or 5) There is a possibility to finger some passages with a sliding barré - something that needs to be planned and does not occur naturally by just intabulating the keyboard score. André Nieuwlaat suggests that some of the pieces could actually be intabulations by John Dowland. Anyway, the polyphony in above mentioned pieces sounds extremely beautiful on the lute, and are surprisingly playable in relation to the effect. On 29.04.20 01:46, Ron Andrico wrote: Yes. First and foremost, tablature was created to serve as a short score of polyphonic music and printed or manuscript tablatures of polyphonic music were meant to serve as a reservoir of information. While the ideal is to play every note, I firmly believe that lutenists always made adjustments, as you have described, for practical purposes. The idea of 16th-century lute tablatures being compared to a form such as the preludes by Villa-Lobos, in terms of notes that must be conquered through disciplined technique, is an absurdity imposed upon historical music by 20th century guitarists who took up the lute. The point of 16th-century tablatures was to gain an understanding of the musical intent in the score and the greatest technical challenge is to realize the polyphony to the best of one's ability. I have read V. Galilei's Fronimo forward and backwards, and his remarks about not making concessions in intabulating polyphony for the sake of fingering are an admonition to avoid altering the content of the piece to reduce fingering difficulties because a tablature score is meant to represent the music. Overcome the difficulties or not, but don't change the polyphony. Molinaro was an organist and his tablatures show what is possible but are certainly influenced by his conscious or unconscious reference to keyboard practice. Terzi was a freak if he could play all those notes in his intabulations while observing the tactus. Not bloody likely. He's probably laughing at us from another world. If there is one thing I have absorbed over thirty years of lute-playing and creating countless intabulations of sixteenth century polyphony, the score is a reservoir of information. It was always meant to be so. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:15 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de Cc: LuteList ; lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Yes. First and foremost, tablature was created to serve as a short score of polyphonic music and printed or manuscript tablatures of polyphonic music were meant to serve as a reservoir of information. While the ideal is to play every note, I firmly believe that lutenists always made adjustments, as you have described, for practical purposes. The idea of 16th-century lute tablatures being compared to a form such as the preludes by Villa-Lobos, in terms of notes that must be conquered through disciplined technique, is an absurdity imposed upon historical music by 20th century guitarists who took up the lute. The point of 16th-century tablatures was to gain an understanding of the musical intent in the score and the greatest technical challenge is to realize the polyphony to the best of one's ability. I have read V. Galilei's Fronimo forward and backwards, and his remarks about not making concessions in intabulating polyphony for the sake of fingering are an admonition to avoid altering the content of the piece to reduce fingering difficulties because a tablature score is meant to represent the music. Overcome the difficulties or not, but don't change the polyphony. Molinaro was an organist and his tablatures show what is possible but are certainly influenced by his conscious or unconscious reference to keyboard practice. Terzi was a freak if he could play all those notes in his intabulations while observing the tactus. Not bloody likely. He's probably laughing at us from another world. If there is one thing I have absorbed over thirty years of lute-playing and creating countless intabulations of sixteenth century polyphony, the score is a reservoir of information. It was always meant to be so. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:15 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de Cc: LuteList ; lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite craz
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Yes. First and foremost, tablature was created to serve as a short score of polyphonic music and printed or manuscript tablatures of polyphonic music were meant to serve as a reservoir of information. While the ideal is to play every note, I firmly believe that lutenists always made adjustments, as you have described, for practical purposes. The idea of 16th-century lute tablatures being compared to a form such as the preludes by Villa-Lobos, in terms of notes that must be conquered through disciplined technique, is an absurdity imposed upon historical music by 20th century guitarists who took up the lute. The point of 16th-century tablatures was to gain an understanding of the musical intent in the score and the greatest technical challenge is to realize the polyphony to the best of one's ability. I have read V. Galilei's Fronimo forward and backwards, and his remarks about not making concessions in intabulating polyphony for the sake of fingering are an admonition to avoid altering the content of the piece to reduce fingering difficulties because a tablature score is meant to represent the music. Overcome the difficulties or not, but don't change the polyphony. Molinaro was an organist and his tablatures show what is possible but are certainly influenced by his conscious or unconscious reference to keyboard practice. Terzi was a freak if he could play all those notes in his intabulations while observing the tactus. Not bloody likely. He's probably laughing at us from another world. If there is one thing I have absorbed over thirty years of lute-playing and creating countless intabulations of sixteenth century polyphony, the score is a reservoir of information. It was always meant to be so. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:15 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de Cc: LuteList ; lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite craz
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
It is very interesting to compare the Vincenzo Galilei intabulations in Il Fronimo to the music he published elsewhere particularly in his manuscript collection. The music in Il Fronimo is didactic -- and often awkward because of too many voices -- and in the MS collection it is mostly easy to play dances, very native to the lute without complicated or tortured chord shapes. Note that Il Fronimo is widely available on the Net while his manuscript music is harder to find, at least until recently. Enough to significantly skew the idea we have of that venerable father of Italian lute music. I think the 19th century saw an active industry of piano reductions of full orchestra scores. In the 16th century - and even the 17th - the lute took the place of the piano to bring popular vocal scores to the public. Part deux: I made an experiment to intabulate 17th century pieces for 3 viols for a 9-course lute to see if composers could actually use a lute or theorbo to play together - and / or even compose! - consort music. The idea was that Jenkins and William Lawes both had lutenist or theorbist in their official contracts, not violists. Yet both composers left barely any lute/theorbo music behind while leaving tons of viol consort music. So what happened to that plucked music? The other idea is that lute music - and the vieil ton - did not die quite as fast in England. Again, did the light go off on the vieil ton lute overnight? Quite possibly there was a gradual transfer of skills from the G-tuning to the theorbo (same chord shapes), a process made less clear perhaps by the convenience of figured bass. You can check that [1]experiment here if you want - I think the (84) pieces for bass and 2 treble fit remarkably well on the 9-course G-tuning lute. It is also interesting I think since we have so little written out lute music from England after 1620. Finally, reductions can be kind of useful as long as confinement does not really allow you to play easily with your buddy viol players ... On 4/28/20 2:15 PM, Guilherme Barroso wrote: Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barr̮̩s with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 ̮ s 23:04, [2]<[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barr̮̩s with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barr̮̩ with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 ̮ s 20:50, [3]<[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite crazy! >> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal >> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical >> experience I had to ask m
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite crazy! >> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal >> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical >> experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina >> and >> me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on >> traverso - >> so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked >> quite >> well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the >> voices. >> Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), >> I >> decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a >> perfect >> voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the >> madrigals >> recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner >> >> voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for >> the >> lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a >> good >> phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If >> you're >> interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces >> we >> recorded on youtube. >> Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns >> intabulations, >> Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the >> same >> time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now >> (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal >> exactly? At >> the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music >> existed, so >> maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the >> intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which >> role >> the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" >> parts >> on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or >> third >> fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. >> >> All the best, >> Yuval >> >> Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: >>> Dear Lute collective, >>> For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the >>> intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your >> ideas. >>> When
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Sure. Here it is: [1]https://we.tl/t-cKblbeN4wz Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 às 22:40, Jurgen Frenz <[2]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> escreveu: most unfortunately this forum's service provided doesn't allow photo attachments. Can you upload the example elsewhere and post the link to it here? That would be great. Thanks Jurgen âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:25 PM, Guilherme Barroso <[3]guilhermesbarr...@gmail.com> wrote: > --0c0ca105a45ecdc0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from 1582. In > the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible to play (this > chord appears often in this publication and also in Terzi's books), the > next two bars are not better. even if you find a way to do it by some kind > of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 às 20:50, [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de escreveu: > > > Dear Guilherme, > > it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be nice > > to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, and > > he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all kind > > of tablature fluently - quite crazy! > > To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal > > experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical > > experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina and > > me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on traverso - > > so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked quite > > well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the voices. > > Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), I > > decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a perfect > > voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the madrigals > > recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner > > voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for the > > lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a good > > phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If you're > > interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces we > > recorded on youtube. > > Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns intabulations, > > Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the same > > time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now > > (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal exactly? At > > the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music existed, so > > maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the > > intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which role > > the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" parts > > on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or third > > fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. > > All the best, > > Yuval > > Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > > > > > Dear Lute collective, > > > For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the > > > intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. > > > When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to > > > the > > > lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to > > > play. > > > Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some > > > times present passages that are not only very demanding technically > > > but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book > > > about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of > > > Galilei's > > > intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to > > > be > > > played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli > > > for > > > solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and > > > another version for lute and bass solo (where the lu
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: Dear Yuval, Thanks a lot for your answer. I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some places. Of course with your lute, even worse. But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not possible. I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 às 20:50, escreveu: Dear Guilherme, it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be nice to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, and he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all kind of tablature fluently - quite crazy! To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina and me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on traverso - so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked quite well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the voices. Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), I decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a perfect voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the madrigals recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for the lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a good phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If you're interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces we recorded on youtube. Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns intabulations, Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the same time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal exactly? At the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music existed, so maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which role the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" parts on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or third fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. All the best, Yuval Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: Dear Lute collective, For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to the lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to play. Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some times present passages that are not only very demanding technically but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of Galilei's intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to be played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli for solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and voice version for sure was intended to be performed while the other might be intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the same as making a score for study purposes. There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are more concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work then making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several composers and several p
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
most unfortunately this forum's service provided doesn't allow photo attachments. Can you upload the example elsewhere and post the link to it here? That would be great. Thanks Jurgen ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:25 PM, Guilherme Barroso wrote: > --0c0ca105a45ecdc0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from 1582. In > the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible to play (this > chord appears often in this publication and also in Terzi's books), the > next two bars are not better. even if you find a way to do it by some kind > of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 às 20:50, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de escreveu: > > > Dear Guilherme, > > it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be nice > > to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, and > > he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all kind > > of tablature fluently - quite crazy! > > To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal > > experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical > > experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina and > > me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on traverso - > > so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked quite > > well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the voices. > > Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), I > > decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a perfect > > voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the madrigals > > recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner > > voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for the > > lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a good > > phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If you're > > interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces we > > recorded on youtube. > > Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns intabulations, > > Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the same > > time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now > > (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal exactly? At > > the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music existed, so > > maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the > > intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which role > > the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" parts > > on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or third > > fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. > > All the best, > > Yuval > > Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > > > > > Dear Lute collective, > > > For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the > > > intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. > > > When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to > > > the > > > lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to > > > play. > > > Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some > > > times present passages that are not only very demanding technically > > > but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book > > > about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of > > > Galilei's > > > intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to > > > be > > > played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli > > > for > > > solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and > > > another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is > > > extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and voice > > > version for sure was intended to be performed while the other might > > > be > > > intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the same > > > as > > > making a score for study purposes. > > > There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are more > > > concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work then > > > making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. > > > Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several > > > composers > > > and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for example, > > > is > > > more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he says > > > that > > > the "playability and beauty should come first". > > > But even
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
--0c0ca105a45ecdc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Yuval, Thanks a lot for your answer. I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some places. Of course with your lute, even worse. But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not possible. I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 20:50, escreveu: > Dear Guilherme, > > it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be nice > to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, and > he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all kind > of tablature fluently - quite crazy! > To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal > experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical > experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina and > me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on traverso - > so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked quite > well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the voices. > Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), I > decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a perfect > voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the madrigals > recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner > voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for the > lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a good > phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If you're > interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces we > recorded on youtube. > Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns intabulations, > Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the same > time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now > (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal exactly? At > the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music existed, so > maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the > intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which role > the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" parts > on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or third > fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. > > All the best, > Yuval > > > > > Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > > Dear Lute collective, > >For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the > >intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. > >When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to > > the > >lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to > > play. > >Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some > >times present passages that are not only very demanding technically > >but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book > >about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of > > Galilei's > >intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to > > be > >played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli > > for > >solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and > >another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is > >extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and voice > >version for sure was intended to be performed while the other might > > be > >intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the same > > as > >making a score for study purposes. > >There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are more > >concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work then > >making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. > >Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several > > composers > >and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for example, > > is > >more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he says > > that > >the "playability and beauty should come first". > >But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be played, > >like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a > >"Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly prefer > > to > >maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite of > > the > >diffculty to play. > >What do you think about this? > >When you play this repertoire, do y
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Dear Guilherme, it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be nice to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, and he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all kind of tablature fluently - quite crazy! To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina and me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on traverso - so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked quite well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the voices. Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), I decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a perfect voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the madrigals recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for the lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a good phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If you're interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces we recorded on youtube. Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns intabulations, Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the same time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal exactly? At the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music existed, so maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which role the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" parts on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or third fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. All the best, Yuval Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: Dear Lute collective, For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to the lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to play. Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some times present passages that are not only very demanding technically but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of Galilei's intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to be played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli for solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and voice version for sure was intended to be performed while the other might be intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the same as making a score for study purposes. There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are more concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work then making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several composers and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for example, is more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he says that the "playability and beauty should come first". But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be played, like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a "Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly prefer to maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite of the diffculty to play. What do you think about this? When you play this repertoire, do you try to keep all notes? Do you omit certain notes to make it more playful? Do you make decision based on the musical flow? I am very curious to hear your ideas. All the best, -- Guilherme Barroso [1]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] About vocal intabulations
Dear Lute collective, For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your ideas. When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations to the lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult to play. Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, some times present passages that are not only very demanding technically but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his book about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of Galilei's intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, not to be played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i Colli for solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) and another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and voice version for sure was intended to be performed while the other might be intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the same as making a score for study purposes. There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are more concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work then making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several composers and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for example, is more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he says that the "playability and beauty should come first". But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be played, like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a "Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly prefer to maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite of the diffculty to play. What do you think about this? When you play this repertoire, do you try to keep all notes? Do you omit certain notes to make it more playful? Do you make decision based on the musical flow? I am very curious to hear your ideas. All the best, -- Guilherme Barroso [1]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sixteenth century lute treatises by Hiroyuki Minamino
Dears, Recently i have acquired the Thesis. Thanks a lot for all your help. All the best, Guilherme Barroso Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 07:49, T.Kakinami <[1]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp> escreveu: I tried to contact Hiroyuki Minamino, but I couldn't find where he is now. Then there might be some ways to request the library. for example, [2]https://webvoyage.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB =local&BOOL 1=all+of+these&FLD1=OCLC+Number+%28OCLC%29&CNT=20&SAB1=oc?18969226 Kakinami -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arthur Ness Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 2:43 AM To: [5]guilhermesbarr...@gmail.com; [6]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp Cc: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sixteenth century lute treatises by Hiroyuki Minamino Possibly you mean Hiro's doctoral dissertation at the U. of Chicago. He worked with Howard Mayer Brown (!!!): "Sixteenth-Century Lute Treatises with Emphasis on Process and Techniques of Intabulation." Available through ProQuest (?) Check AMS Doctoral Dissertations in Musicology for info. --AJN -Original Message- From: Guilherme Barroso <[8]guilhermesbarr...@gmail.com> To: T.Kakinami <[9]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp> Cc: LuteList <[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tue, Apr 21, 2020 6:23 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sixteenth century lute treatises by Hiroyuki Minamino Dear Toshiaki Thanks for your reply. There are very interesting articles there but i could not find the thesis i am looking for in that link. Em ter., 21 de abr. de 2020 C s 12:04, T.Kakinami <[1][1][11]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp> escreveu: You mean ? [2][2][12]https://escholarship.org/search?q=Minamino%2C%20Hiroyuki%E 3%80%80 Sixteenth%2 0 Toshiaki Kakinami -Original Message- From: [3][3][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4][4][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:01 PM To: LuteList Subject: [LUTE] Sixteenth century lute treatises by Hiroyuki Minamino Dear collective, Would anyone of you have a pdf from the thesis Sixteenth century lute treatises by Hiroyuki Minamino? Or maybe have an idea where i could find it? Thanks a lot and stay healthy! -- Guilherme dos Santos Barroso [1][5][15]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. [6][5][16]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7][6][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Guilherme dos Santos Barroso Hagenbachstrasse 36 CH-4052 Basel Schweiz Tel: +41 767488925 [8][18]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. mailto:[7][19]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp 2. [8][20]https://escholarship.org/search?q=Minamino, HiroyukiC#Sixteenth%2 3. mailto:[9][21]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[10][22]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [11][23]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 6. [12][24]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 7. [13][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. [14][26]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ -- References 1. mailto:[27]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp 2. [28]https://escholarship.org/search?q=Minamino%2C%20Hiroyuki%E3%80%8 0 3. mailto:[29]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[30]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [31]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 6. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[33]tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp 8. [34]https://escholarship.org/search?q=Minamino, 9. mailto:[35]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:[36]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. [37]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 12. [38]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 13. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. [40]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ -- Guilherme dos Santos Barroso [41]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. mailto:tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp 2. https://webvoyage.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin
