Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one.
Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1][email protected]> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2][email protected]> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite crazy! >> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my personal >> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical >> experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when Martina >> and >> me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on >> traverso - >> so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which worked >> quite >> well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the >> voices. >> Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, 67cm), >> I >> decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a >> perfect >> voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the >> madrigals >> recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the inner >> >> voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic for >> the >> lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a >> good >> phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If >> you're >> interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces >> we >> recorded on youtube. >> Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns >> intabulations, >> Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the >> same >> time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and now >> (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal >> exactly? At >> the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music >> existed, so >> maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the >> intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which >> role >> the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" >> parts >> on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or >> third >> fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. >> >> All the best, >> Yuval >> >> Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: >>> Dear Lute collective, >>> For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the >>> intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your >> ideas. >>> When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations >> to >>> the >>> lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult >> to >>> play. >>> Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, >> some >>> times present passages that are not only very demanding >> technically >>> but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his >> book >>> about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of >>> Galilei's >>> intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, >> not to >>> be >>> played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i >> Colli >>> for >>> solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) >> and >>> another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is >>> extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and >> voice >>> version for sure was intended to be performed while the other >> might >>> be >>> intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the >> same >>> as >>> making a score for study purposes. >>> There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are >> more >>> concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work >> then >>> making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. >>> Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several >>> composers >>> and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for >> example, >>> is >>> more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he >> says >>> that >>> the "playability and beauty should come first". >>> But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be >> played, >>> like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a >>> "Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly >> prefer >>> to >>> maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite >> of >>> the >>> diffculty to play. >>> What do you think about this? >>> When you play this repertoire, do you try to keep all notes? >> Do you >>> omit certain notes to make it more playful? Do you make >> decision >>> based >>> on the musical flow? >>> I am very curious to hear your ideas. >>> All the best, >>> -- >>> Guilherme Barroso >>> [1][3]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1] >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. [4]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ [2] >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html [3] > > -- > > Guilherme Barroso > [6]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] [7]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com > [2] [8]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > [3] [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Guilherme Barroso [10]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 4. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 7. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 8. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
