[LUTE] Rethorique des Dieux, English translation of preface?
Dear collected mind. Could someone direct me to such, if available? David -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Numbers in a battle (Eysert), part 2
They seem to indicate the duration of rests. In this case there are no red notes. I wonder if there is a intabulation of the second choir's part elsewhere in the manuscript. See: https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/145459/sv06 Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. kirjoitti 8.9.2020 klo 18.47: After bars 2, 5, 13, 17, 22, 26, and 31 in this piece, there are numbers, like #°6, #°13, etc. Can anyone help me figure out what this might mean? --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website:http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
Am 08.09.2020 um 17:55 schrieb howard posner: On Sep 8, 2020, at 3:18 AM, Rainer wrote: According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when played by Liszt. He wrote presque une heure - even slower. Playing everything as asked for by Beethoven makes 32 minutes. As far as I know there is not a single recording that lasts 32 minutes only. I am not really interested in Liszt's tempo and I am convinced that some modern players can play faster than Liszt. I am interested in other people's opinions regarding the metronome markings in those days. Some pieces by Czerny are ridiculously fast in modern interpretation. Some Pieces by Schumann are totally ruined unless played at half the speed. On the other hand Chopin#s etudes played at half the speed sound somewhat boring. I simply do not know... See for example https://youtu.be/7PwoFoZTTHU Sometimes his arguments are not really convincing nor are his music examples, but there is certainly some truth in it. Rainer PS Even Korstick is slower :) And a certain Alfred Brendel said "Das vorgeschriebene Tempo des ersten Satzes zumal ist von keinem Spieler, und sei es der Teufel persönlich, auf irgendeinem Flügel der Welt auch nur annähernd zu bewältigen." Liszt said something of the sort in a letter written 40 years after the performance Berlioz reviewed. For all we know, he hadn’t played it in years and didn’t recall accurately. Or he took the fast movements slower as time went on. Or he took the slow movement, or the sections that don’t have metronome markings, more slowly. And for all we know, Berlioz didn’t mean to say specifically that Liszt played at Beethoven’s indicated metronome markings, only that he didn’t play around with the tempo once he started. And even if he did, maybe Berlioz, sitting in a theater with the sheet music but without a metronome, couldn’t tell the difference between quarter note = 144 and quarter note =130. This all pretty much exemplifies the problems of discussing tempo in the pre-recording age. I haven’t found any source saying Lizst was unable to play the sonata at the indicated tempi. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Luth Doré
everything is fine. My provider treated the order confirmation as spam :( Rainer Am 08.09.2020 um 16:00 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, has anybody ordered something form Le Luth Doré ? I have placed an order and already paid via PayPal but not received an order confirmation. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
> On Sep 8, 2020, at 3:18 AM, Rainer wrote: > > According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when > played by Liszt. Liszt said something of the sort in a letter written 40 years after the performance Berlioz reviewed. For all we know, he hadn’t played it in years and didn’t recall accurately. Or he took the fast movements slower as time went on. Or he took the slow movement, or the sections that don’t have metronome markings, more slowly. And for all we know, Berlioz didn’t mean to say specifically that Liszt played at Beethoven’s indicated metronome markings, only that he didn’t play around with the tempo once he started. And even if he did, maybe Berlioz, sitting in a theater with the sheet music but without a metronome, couldn’t tell the difference between quarter note = 144 and quarter note =130. This all pretty much exemplifies the problems of discussing tempo in the pre-recording age. I haven’t found any source saying Lizst was unable to play the sonata at the indicated tempi. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Numbers in a battle (Eysert), part 2
After bars 2, 5, 13, 17, 22, 26, and 31 in this piece, there are numbers, like #°6, #°13, etc. Can anyone help me figure out what this might mean? --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website:http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Luth Doré
Yes, ordered a couple of editions from them earlier in the year. Received both a PayPal receipt and an automated receipt from their webshop. The order took a few months (mostly due to COVID/La Poste I think), but Miguel was responsive and nice over email when I had queries about this, so I would send them an email if you are unsure. Jim On 8 Sep 2020, 16:02 +0200, Rainer , wrote: Dear lute netters, has anybody ordered something form Le Luth Doré ? I have placed an order and already paid via PayPal but not received an order confirmation. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Le Luth Doré
Dear lute netters, has anybody ordered something form Le Luth Doré ? I have placed an order and already paid via PayPal but not received an order confirmation. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
The applause was probably included :) :) T* On 08.09.20 12:18, Rainer wrote: According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when played by Liszt. This is much slower than some modern performances. Rainer Am 08.09.2020 um 01:09 schrieb howard posner: On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Rainer wrote: Even List could not play the Hammerklavier Sonate at Beethoven's metronome markings - if they are meant as they are today. Hector Berlioz seems to indicate otherwise in an 1836 review of a Liszt concert in the La Revue et Gazette musicale de Paris: "Liszt has explained the work in such a way that if the composer himself had returned from the grave, joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added (I followed the performance with the sheet music), not one alteration was made in the tempo that was not indicated in the text (….) It was the ideal performance of a work with the reputation of being unperformable. Liszt, in bringing back a work that was previously not understood has shown that he is a pianist of the future.” This quote is from "Early Performances of Beethoven’s ‘Hammerklavier’ Sonata op. 106 in France and England” by Marten Noorduin: https://www.ripm.org/cnc/?p=592 Here’s a different translation: "A new Oedipus, Liszt, has solved it, solved it in such a way that had the composer himself returned from the grave, a paroxysm of joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added . . . no inflection was effaced, no change of tempo permitted. Liszt, in thus making comprehensible a work not yet comprehended, has proved that he is the pianist of the future." I haven’t seen the original Berlioz article in French (and it wouldn’t do me much good if I did). The real problem with Beethoven’s metronome marks is that they were ignored in the early 20th century, and by time the early music movement got to Beethoven there was a performance tradition going back a few generations, and zillions of recordings establishing an accepted range of tempi. Some of them worked even though they were ridiculously wrong as a matter of performance practice: the Allegretto second movement of the Seventh Symphony played as if it were a slow movement comes to mind. If I’m not mistaken, the Hammerklavier was the only piano sonata Beethoven published with metronome marks. There are far more of them in the orchestral works. Roger Norrington, in his recordings of the Beethoven orchestral works, adhered to the metronome markings, and often offers explanations of them in his written notes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when played by Liszt. This is much slower than some modern performances. Rainer Am 08.09.2020 um 01:09 schrieb howard posner: On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Rainer wrote: Even List could not play the Hammerklavier Sonate at Beethoven's metronome markings - if they are meant as they are today. Hector Berlioz seems to indicate otherwise in an 1836 review of a Liszt concert in the La Revue et Gazette musicale de Paris: "Liszt has explained the work in such a way that if the composer himself had returned from the grave, joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added (I followed the performance with the sheet music), not one alteration was made in the tempo that was not indicated in the text (….) It was the ideal performance of a work with the reputation of being unperformable. Liszt, in bringing back a work that was previously not understood has shown that he is a pianist of the future.” This quote is from "Early Performances of Beethoven’s ‘Hammerklavier’ Sonata op. 106 in France and England” by Marten Noorduin: https://www.ripm.org/cnc/?p=592 Here’s a different translation: "A new Oedipus, Liszt, has solved it, solved it in such a way that had the composer himself returned from the grave, a paroxysm of joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added . . . no inflection was effaced, no change of tempo permitted. Liszt, in thus making comprehensible a work not yet comprehended, has proved that he is the pianist of the future." I haven’t seen the original Berlioz article in French (and it wouldn’t do me much good if I did). The real problem with Beethoven’s metronome marks is that they were ignored in the early 20th century, and by time the early music movement got to Beethoven there was a performance tradition going back a few generations, and zillions of recordings establishing an accepted range of tempi. Some of them worked even though they were ridiculously wrong as a matter of performance practice: the Allegretto second movement of the Seventh Symphony played as if it were a slow movement comes to mind. If I’m not mistaken, the Hammerklavier was the only piano sonata Beethoven published with metronome marks. There are far more of them in the orchestral works. Roger Norrington, in his recordings of the Beethoven orchestral works, adhered to the metronome markings, and often offers explanations of them in his written notes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
