Re: (serious/popular)
Ed, Looks as if he was sending in rich text rather than plain text. An option on most software. An option to be avoided on lists as not all have the software set up to read it. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:04 AM Subject: Re: (serious/popular) It is certainly not by chance, tha= t Bakfarks first book ends with the intabulation of Verdelot's Ultimi mei sospi= ri while the Cracow lute book with Josquin' Faulte d'argent. It has been pr= obably immediately understood by his contemporaries as a kind of joke. Kind of goes over my head. What was the joke? -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Ed, Bakfark finished his Lyon lute book with the piece my last sighs (Ultimi mei sospiri), and the Cracow lute book ends with a reference to the lack of money (Faulte d'argent). Best regards, Peter - Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (serious/popular)
It is certainly not by chance, tha= t Bakfarks first book ends with the intabulation of Verdelot's Ultimi mei sospi= ri while the Cracow lute book with Josquin' Faulte d'argent. It has been pr= obably immediately understood by his contemporaries as a kind of joke. Kind of goes over my head. What was the joke? -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear friends, James A Stimson wrote: [DEL:Just because Francesco didn't include an= y dances in his publications :DEL] [DEL: doesn't mean he never played them. :DEL] Of course not. They had to play much dance music. And beside so= los much ensemblemusic, too. Also, they played to diners and the like, where probab= ly not the lute music was the loudest... Thus this is how they worked in real life, but their editions, = the tablatures of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark show what they considered themselves, highb= row musicians, composers of serious music. They choose carefully what to prese= nt in their editions: fantasias and intabulations, and no dance music and the li= ke. Also, as Denys Stephens rightly put, they were choosing even their intabulations= not without considering what the text says. It is certainly not by chance, tha= t Bakfarks first book ends with the intabulation of Verdelot's Ultimi mei sospi= ri while the Cracow lute book with Josquin' Faulte d'argent. It has been pr= obably immediately understood by his contemporaries as a kind of joke. Best wishes, Peter- Peter Kir=E1ly Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Peter, You wrote: If we have a look on 16th century lute tablatures, it is also obvious, that some musicians published only 'serious/highbrow' music. Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. I can see where you are coming from on this, and that you can make a good case for your view. I like to think, though, that Francesco was not completely humourless. He does give us quite a number of intabulations of pieces by Claudin de Sermisy whose chansons, when you get to know them, have quite a bit of humour and sexual innuendo. Judging by the quantity of surviving settings Claudin's music was certainly very popular. Francesco gives us settings, among others, of Vignon vignetta, a drinking song in praise of the vine and Martin menuyt. The latter, for those not familiar with it, is about Martin and his girlfriend Alix who decide to make love whilst taking their pig to market. To avoid losing the pig they tie it to Alix' ankle - unfortunately the pig gets frightened and runs away, taking Alix with it! The piece is suitably frenetic if played at the right speed and would be quite a tour de force on the lute. Music like this surely must have raised a few smiles in Francesco's audience, even when played on the lute? Best wishes, Denys
Re: (serious/popular)
Both TLdeVictoria and delEncina were clergymen, but the difference in mindset is rather noticeable RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org Dear Jurek and All: Just because Francesco didn't include any dances in his publications doesn't mean he never played them. A musician of his caliber may not have needed an intabulation to play a dance. Yours, Jim Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Jurek (Jerzy), you are absolutely right saying 'there were always some kind of= distinctions in style and organisation There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' If I my memory does not fails, Weiss received the highest salar= y at the Dresden court. It was definitely the case with Bakfark while he served Emperor Max= imilan. He was the best paid court musician of the Emperor. There is also much historical data, which prove, the best music= ians wanted sometimes enormous high payments. During the mid 1570s the Bavarian Duke tried to get Lorenzino into his services. But Lorenzino, a young musician = at that time, wanted such a high salary, which, according to the Duke, never have = been paid in his land any good musician, even not the best. And this is written= by a monarch, whose Kapellmester happened to be Orlando di Lasso, not a cheap o= ne at all. If we have a look on 16th century lute tablatures, it is also o= bvious, that some musicians published only 'serious/highbrow' music. Look at for example the= editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music = like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or d= ance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction be= tween serious and popular. Best regards, Peter - Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (serious/popular)
Hi, hasn't some intavolations of Francesco being found? I think I bought a book containg song settings attributed to Francesco (although owning my copy for a while I haven't looked at it carefully) - Arthur will know ... Several of Francescos recercare and fantasia definitly are based on vocal models ... Best wishes Thomas Am Fre, 2003-12-12 um 12.31 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), you are absolutely right saying 'there were always some kind of= distinctions in style and organisation There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' If I my memory does not fails, Weiss received the highest salar= y at the Dresden court. It was definitely the case with Bakfark while he served Emperor Max= imilan. He was the best paid court musician of the Emperor. There is also much historical data, which prove, the best music= ians wanted sometimes enormous high payments. During the mid 1570s the Bavarian Duke tried to get Lorenzino into his services. But Lorenzino, a young musician = at that time, wanted such a high salary, which, according to the Duke, never have = been paid in his land any good musician, even not the best. And this is written= by a monarch, whose Kapellmester happened to be Orlando di Lasso, not a cheap o= ne at all. If we have a look on 16th century lute tablatures, it is also o= bvious, that some musicians published only 'serious/highbrow' music. Look at for example the= editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music = like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or d= ance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction be= tween serious and popular. Best regards, Peter - Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: (serious/popular)
Thanks for joinin, Peter, On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 12:31 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' .. Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Jurek and All: Just because Francesco didn't include any dances in his publications doesn't mean he never played them. A musician of his caliber may not have needed an intabulation to play a dance. Yours, Jim Jerzy ZAK [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wp.pl cc: Subject: Re: (serious/popular) 12/13/2003 06:16 PM Thanks for joinin, Peter, On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 12:31 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' . Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
