[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
God question, Anthony. In absence of any evidence anywhere of making thumb picks for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done. ed At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this MH Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg www.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:57:24 + (GMT) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought To: Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist! In 1890, say, not so much respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and antiquarian circles. OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been so brutal. Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle attic Martyn Martyn Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at least. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple,
