[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-08 Thread Edward Martin
God question, Anthony.  In absence of any evidence anywhere of making 
thumb picks for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done.


ed



At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a very
long
time.  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for a very long time.

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before
1907),
perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a
Heckel looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son
of the
house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of
Music, in

South

Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by
Stradivarius, Ganeri,
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-08 Thread Martyn Hodgson
Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this

  MH
  
Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Jaroslaw
Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and 
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. 
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is 
mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing 
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure 
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an 
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these 
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.

 Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
 theorbo
 tuning mentioned by Baron?
 Are Vidar Boye Hansen

Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :

 Anthony,
 Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from 
 guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium 
 length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The 
 result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with 
 small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was 
 very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my 
 fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
 fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low 
 tension and rather low string action in the place where the right 
 hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in 
 a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the 
 places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This 
 however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact 
 that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
 Best wishes

 Jaroslaw

 -Original Message-
 From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
 To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - 
 another thought

 Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
 through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
 similar marks?
 Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
 extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
 Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
 sharktoothpickproducts.html
 They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
 construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
 Anthony

 Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :

 No trouble at all, Martyn.

 Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
 lute, as
 I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
 the
 rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
 position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks
 would be
 mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
 course, down
 to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
 accordingly. So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the
 rose, but
 marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
 pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.

 The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
 not from a
 strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
 also asked
 the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
 lutenist
 would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
 playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is
 amazing.

 The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to 
 the
 pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very
 long
 time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
 baroque
 lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a
 musician playing close to the bridge.

 ed

 At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
 played in
 its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
 dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 
 13th
 courses would run?

 Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
 still
 have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
 You'll
 know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
 relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
 Padovetz,
 Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
 courses
 were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
 playing
 a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
 www.harpguitars.net has many pictures.

 MH

 Edward Martin wrote:
 Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
 playing
 a 13 course lute

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-08 Thread Anthony Hind

Jaroslaw
	Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and  
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings.  
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is  
mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or finger attachment for playing  
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure  
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an  
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these  
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.



Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
theorbo
tuning mentioned by Baron?
Are Vidar Boye Hansen


Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :


Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium  
length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The  
result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with  
small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was  
very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my  
fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the  
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low  
tension and rather low string action in the place where the right  
hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in  
a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the  
places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This  
however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact  
that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota -  
another thought


Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
sharktoothpickproducts.html

They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to  
the

pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a very
long
time.  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to  
13th

courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for a very long time.

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-07 Thread Martyn Hodgson


Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:57:24 + 
(GMT)
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
To: Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

   
  I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is 
why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist!  In 1890, say, not so much 
respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and 
antiquarian circles.
   
  OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes 
and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that 
an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been 
so brutal.
   
  Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle 
attic
   
  Martyn
   
  Martyn

Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at
least.

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-07 Thread Edward Martin
No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as 
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the 
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this 
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks would be 
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down 
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, 
accordingly.  So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the rose, but 
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc 
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a 
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked 
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist 
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and 
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the 
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long 
time.  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque 
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a 
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in 
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they 
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th 
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still 
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll 
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became 
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, 
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses 
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing 
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg 
http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the
castle attic for a very long time.

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
 movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907),
 perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?
 
 MH
 
 Edward Martin wrote:
 Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in
 storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked
 at them, and put back into storage in the castle..
 
 ed
 
 .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   Thank you for this.
  
  Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound
  a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have
  been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I
  realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not
  have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the
  house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
  attic..
  
  MH
  
  
  Edward Martin wrote:
  Dear ones,
  
  I have an interesting story.
  
  Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in 
 South
  Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many
  lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars
  by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri,
  Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.
  
  The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for
  about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They
  have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm
  mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
  Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted
  to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in
  1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of 
 bird's
  eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
  
  What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these
  lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me
  that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so
  it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played
  near the bridge, due to smudge  dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
  the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One
  player played close to the rose , and 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

2008-02-07 Thread Anthony Hind

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking  
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving  
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of  
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.

Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to  
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.

Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course  
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near  
the

rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks  
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th  
course, down

to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the  
rose, but

marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and  
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have  
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque  
lutenist

would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is  
amazing.


The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a very  
long
time.  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different  
baroque

lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was  
played in

its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might  
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.  
You'll

know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,  
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more  
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums  
playing

a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from  
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were  
in the

castle attic for a very long time.

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before  
1907),

perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to  
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a  
Heckel looked

at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the  
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.  
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th  
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they  
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son  
of the

house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of  
Music, in

South
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have  
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also  
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by  
Stradivarius, Ganeri,

Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined  
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,  
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is  
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps  
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were  
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer  
instrument in

1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of

bird's

eye maple,