[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Re spotlights: different colored strings will react differently. Coincidence? Plausibly not a coincidence. Different colors absorb radiant heat differently. For example, if you want to stay cool in sunlight, you'd wear red or white clothing, which reflects infrared.* Conversely, to get maximum heat our of sunlight, you'd wear blue or black. Although a higher temperature (known informally as heat) itself probably does not make a gut string expand, it does drive moisture out of the string. And, in the case of nylon, it might act more directly. Practically, if you wanted to make a thermal protective sleeve for your instrument case, the silverly stuff people put in the their car windshields would be a good choice of material. It would be a good choice even when there was no direct sunlight, like in a hot car trunk where there is still lots of ambient infrared literally shining out from the hot metal. In Googling the subject, I even found a California regulation in the works dealing with car color, its effect on air conditioner power consumption, and the resultant effect on air pollution (ie, no black cars in California). Physically, the phenomenon is described by saying that the frequency of infrared light and microwaves corresponds to the resonant frequency for the molecular vibratory motion which is heat. You can pursue further reading by looking for the physics terms radiant heat and bremstralung. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
As has been alluded in many replies, lutes don't necessarily stay in tune when subject to variable environments. The question might be more appropriately phrased as What makes lutes going out of tune less problematic? One thing I have not seen mentioned is minimizing friction over the nut. This better balances the tension of the vibrating string with the tension stored behind the nut. Well-smoothed nut slots help. Winding strings so they come off the nut in as straight a line as possible also helps. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Herbert Ward Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:59 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] What makes a lute stay in tune? Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying in tune a sign of a good lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
A casual, oft-made observation: Gut seems to me to react more to humidity while synthetics and wound strings react more to temperature. Wire-wound organic multiilament strings (like silver-wound silk) are a double wammy. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Benjamin Narvey Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:54 AM To: Franz Mechsner Cc: David van Ooijen; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? Dear Franz, Both: the lighting produces incredible amounts of heat, as does the crowd. The crowd also produces lots of humidity. Both of these factors are normal last-minute changes to concert environments, but my lute was more than usually unstable yesterday. In fact, I wasn't supposed to be using it at all: it had just had surgery (re-drilled the bridge and changed the spacing, meaning the strings were all in different places) and all the strings were changed last week. In particular, the loaded strings lose 0.5 Kg of tension in the first month, so not only do they suffer the normal instability of gut, but in this case they were particularly unstable since they were not even finished stabilizing on the instrument yet. The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Best, B 2010/1/18 Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Mo 18.01.2010 09:40 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Absolutely, Eugene. While my nylgut or nylon strings remain quite stable day to day, I find myself having to retune the wound strings daily. Mostly downward (they get sharp). So obviously they are binding at the nut. I really must take them off and see if I can file the nut grooves smoother and/or somewhat larger. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Mo 18.01.2010 09:40 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
It is the heat from the lighting. Actually it is because light units as used on stage are very low performance contraptions. They tend to generate more heat than light. LvS Op 18 jan 2010, om 09:42 heeft Franz Mechsner het volgende geschreven: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Mo 18.01.2010 09:40 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Dear Franz, Both: the lighting produces incredible amounts of heat, as does the crowd. The crowd also produces lots of humidity. Both of these factors are normal last-minute changes to concert environments, but my lute was more than usually unstable yesterday. In fact, I wasn't supposed to be using it at all: it had just had surgery (re-drilled the bridge and changed the spacing, meaning the strings were all in different places) and all the strings were changed last week. In particular, the loaded strings lose 0.5 Kg of tension in the first month, so not only do they suffer the normal instability of gut, but in this case they were particularly unstable since they were not even finished stabilizing on the instrument yet. The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Best, B 2010/1/18 Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Mo 18.01.2010 09:40 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com wrote: In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! Been there, done that. |-( David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? It's not heat in itself that affects the tuning, but humidity, which is relative to the temperature: hot air contains more water than cold air. Stage lighting can be _very_ hot, causing performers to sweat and gut strings to go out of tune. It's also very local, causing air flows between the colder hall and the stage. Draught is not good for tuning stability either. An audience coming in from the rain with wet coats, just opening the door of the church to let the cold outside air come, someone kindly opening a window to create a cooling draught on stage, all of this can wreak havoc on a carefully tuned early music ensemble. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
After tuning the organ it is always fun to put both arms down on the keyboard after unplugging it to push all the warm air out. Re spotlights: different colored strings will react differently. Coincidence? dt At 12:54 AM 1/18/2010, you wrote: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Stupid question: How does lightning dis-balance the tuning? Is it heat? Or maybe the human warmth of the crowd instead? It's not heat in itself that affects the tuning, but humidity, which is relative to the temperature: hot air contains more water than cold air. Stage lighting can be _very_ hot, causing performers to sweat and gut strings to go out of tune. It's also very local, causing air flows between the colder hall and the stage. Draught is not good for tuning stability either. An audience coming in from the rain with wet coats, just opening the door of the church to let the cold outside air come, someone kindly opening a window to create a cooling draught on stage, all of this can wreak havoc on a carefully tuned early music ensemble. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Hi Ed, It didn't seem to like the (very rare) dry weather in England when it was put under tension...the soundboard shrank due to the low humidity, and this caused the glue to give way, and the string tension did the rest Ouch. Just got word today that the repair is alomost done, so I'll swing past to pick it up in early February! Best wishes, B 2010/1/18 Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp: On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Do tell! Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Actually;--- from one contemporary source, approximately twenty-years of effort on behalf of the Lute player. - Original Message - From: Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Cc: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? Hi Ed, It didn't seem to like the (very rare) dry weather in England when it was put under tension...the soundboard shrank due to the low humidity, and this caused the glue to give way, and the string tension did the rest Ouch. Just got word today that the repair is alomost done, so I'll swing past to pick it up in early February! Best wishes, B 2010/1/18 Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp: On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Do tell! Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Yes, I think Mark has summed up the usual reason for a lute going out of tune. The ambient temperature of a room changes from overnight when it is at its coolest, to daytime when the temperature rises. I find this with nylguts here in the UK, so I guess many other parts of the world do too. The wound basses tighten in a warm temperature so they become sharp and need a tweak to tune them down. If you then choose to play when it is cooler, you will find the basses are flat (after the previous tuning) and now need to be tweaked up. The trebles on my 10-course seem relatively stable and if I practice at the same time every day, the instrument seems to be completely in tune for a few weeks. According to my son living in Sydney it has recently been 29C at night! Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Probert Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:46 AM To: Herbert Ward; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? At the risk of speaking out of turn here (I am not a maker)... HW HW Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what HW construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying HW in tune a sign of a good lute? HW Wood, by its nature, will absorb moisture. As it does so, it expands. Different woods expand at different rates. Glues also do the same, though to a less extent. So, the ambient temperature and humidity will influence each wood in its own way, until some sort of stability is reached. Given that lutes are made from a variety of woods, in a stable environment a well made lute will stay pretty much in tune. In a not so kind environment, such as the sub-tropical summer here in Sydney, tuning each time becomes an issue. Not because of the well-madeness of my instrument (it was perfectly stable in Victoria BC) but due to the swings in temperature and humidity (up to a daily 10C and 35%). As the wood acclimatises to Sydney (along with me!), it might get a little more stable. And, for reference, I am using Nylgut. Hope this helps a little. . mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
To say in tune, the lute must achieve equilibrium. To do that, it has to be constructed in such a way that after a while, it slows the inner movement to a very small amount. I would say of the ones I have played about ten to fifteen percent do this. Next, the string tension must be balanced or graded so that there is a synergy between the string tension and the construction. If the string tension is balancd, all strigs have the same pull, e.g. 3.5 Kg/N. If the strings are graded, there is a tapering of the tension. dt At 04:15 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: I would say that would be the job of well made and well set pegs. An argument could be made for the actual strength of the Lute's construction, making the assumption that the entire instrument may shrink or expand with the level of humidity but I find this specious. Is staying in tune the sign of a good Lute? I would not make that judgment unless going out of tune was such a big issue you could hear the pegs slip during the night. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] What makes a lute stay in tune? Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying in tune a sign of a good lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 11:41 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: If the string tension is balancd, all strigs have the same pull, e.g. 3.5 Kg/N. If the strings are graded, there is a tapering of the tension. Interestingly, among hip-string players Equal Tension is the buzz words for quite a while now. I've always thought this might be a valid concept for a single-strung theorbo, but I've never actually tried it. Anybody with hands-on experience? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
I use equal on my two continuo theorbos, and tapered for the solo instruments, the theorbo and the archlute. I think the equal is the most stable but the bass is too loud for solo work. dt At 02:47 AM 1/17/2010, you wrote: On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 11:41 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: If the string tension is balancd, all strigs have the same pull, e.g. 3.5 Kg/N. If the strings are graded, there is a tapering of the tension. Interestingly, among hip-string players Equal Tension is the buzz words for quite a while now. I've always thought this might be a valid concept for a single-strung theorbo, but I've never actually tried it. Anybody with hands-on experience? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
In answer to the question what makes a lute stay in tune? I respond: certainly *not* high-intensity lighting! I played a concert today with my newly gut-strung 11c (using Mimmo Peruffo's very laudable loaded bass strings) and a theorbo partially strung with Venice diapasons. The tuning was manageable, but when the technicians switched on the lighting just before the crowd came in - and after I thought the lutes had stabilised to the performance environment - I knew my work was cut out for me! All's well that end's well Best to all, Benjamin -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
I would say that would be the job of well made and well set pegs. An argument could be made for the actual strength of the Lute's construction, making the assumption that the entire instrument may shrink or expand with the level of humidity but I find this specious. Is staying in tune the sign of a good Lute? I would not make that judgment unless going out of tune was such a big issue you could hear the pegs slip during the night. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] What makes a lute stay in tune? Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying in tune a sign of a good lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
At the risk of speaking out of turn here (I am not a maker)... HW HW Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what HW construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying HW in tune a sign of a good lute? HW Wood, by its nature, will absorb moisture. As it does so, it expands. Different woods expand at different rates. Glues also do the same, though to a less extent. So, the ambient temperature and humidity will influence each wood in its own way, until some sort of stability is reached. Given that lutes are made from a variety of woods, in a stable environment a well made lute will stay pretty much in tune. In a not so kind environment, such as the sub-tropical summer here in Sydney, tuning each time becomes an issue. Not because of the well-madeness of my instrument (it was perfectly stable in Victoria BC) but due to the swings in temperature and humidity (up to a daily 10C and 35%). As the wood acclimatises to Sydney (along with me!), it might get a little more stable. And, for reference, I am using Nylgut. Hope this helps a little. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
