[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 torr...@lafayette.edu :
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 torr...@lafayette.edu :
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
On Dec 30, 2008, at 4:08 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: With Perrine, both gigues (p. 24f, the other p. 29f.) and La Poste have C (= 4/4). I'm sorry, but that is not correct, all of the gigues (pp. 7, 18, 24, and 29) in Perrine's 1680 publication pieces de luth are in cut time or 2/2 (evidenced by the vertical line that runs through the center of the C), or as he says in his Livre de musique from 1689 binarie mineur, p. 48. This is a two-pulse measure with half notes receiving the beats, one strong and one weak. They are not in common time or 4/4, like all the allemandes are. For Perrine, 4/4 is binarie majeur, and results in four beats to the measure. See his Livre p. 48 They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. Huge difference, yes. The only difference that I can discover, though, is that Perrine's gigue version of La Poste has most crotchet units, so to say, as dotted quavers and semiquavers. I would also relate it to the dance, which has a different stress in cut time (duple) than in 4/4 (quadruple). 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. I had hoped so 8) However, how do we interpret, then, the alla breve sign with Perrine's gigue version of La Poste? In duple rather than quadruple meter, and as you and others have suggested, more attention to the uneven rhythm, as Perrine demonstrates in his example. Notes inegales may be used, but not as a way of turning these duple meter pieces into a compound duple, in an effort to satisfy our need for these gigues to sound like the gigues we were raised on. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie Yes, ternary may not be an apt term. Perhaps, dotted or close-to- dotted is better? Yes, close to, but not exact. Perrine is clear about this as well when he says that the first of two notes within a beat should be longer than the one that follows. Perrine went to great lengths to rhythmically notate the possible rhythmic interpretations for notes separees, but did not provide a table of rhythmic equivalence for notes inegales. Instead, he simply states that the first of two notes within a beat should be longer than the one that follows. I believe that he is being intentionally vague. Best, Jorge Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 torr...@lafayette.edu : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du feu, etc. (so fast and double); however, I also found that the tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps later was used for other warning notes probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732 Anthony Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit : I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 torr...@lafayette.edu :
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I quite agree with Jorge Torres. After playing these pieces for a while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the 1st note of each semi-breve. DD Dear list: A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue. 1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time signature given. They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2, again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19. This makes a huge difference in the way we would play them. 2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19 3) There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played very fast. 4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8 or 12/8). The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie 5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces, but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic to me. All the best, Jorge Torres On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccāre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
damian dlugolecki wrote: G. Crona was kind enough to send a .jpg of the piece. At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' Damian The Livre de Tablature p.86-87 Goëss Théorbe 170-171 Are there general rules of performance for a French gigue in even metre like this one? I heard recordings of gigues by Froberger for the harpsichord (can't remember the performer) which were played extremely inegale, as though inegality was the major trait of gigues. Does the title (euqivalent to tocsin in modern French and English, I assume) indicate fast tempo? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tocsin is an alarm sounded by a bell f rom the Old French touquesain charles
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Hi all, My old dictionary gives this meaning... Tocsin: (tok-sin) [M.F. toquesing (O.F. toquer, to TOUCH, sing, SIGNAL)], n. An alarm-bell; the ringing of an alarm-bell, an alarm-signal. Church-bells have been used as an alarm in times past. Is this another possibility? Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:dlu...@verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 1:15 AM To: damian dlugolecki Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I would imagine it could be binary. Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 13:56, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I would imagine it could be binary. Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are gigues in 4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both gigues have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass note even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton). With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4 gigues, you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of playing by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both halves of his gigue. Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e. raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the conclusions of the 1st half. Mathias Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is musically depicted by the repeated bass notes. My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that alarm bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in case of emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be played that way, too? It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in December 2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES). Mathias Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Damian Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning. This would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal tocaseneh. It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly related to touch, comes from Latin toccre make a sound like toc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-touch.html and senh could be derived from Latin signum a sign - a signal, giving ancient French seing, later sein, and which took on the meaning of bell. My source is the historic dictionary of the French language, le Robert, but etymology of a single expression, even backed-up by such a dictionary is rarely safe. Around 1570 and for a certain period, the expression apparently took on a metaphoric meaning (Bossuet) to allert public oppinion. Best wishes Anthony Le 28 déc. 08 à 02:51, damian dlugolecki a écrit : You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Andreas Schlegel lute.cor...@sunrise.ch schrieb: Of course! Livre de Tablature p.86-87 Goëss Théorbe 170-171 Are there general rules of performance for a French gigue in even metre like this one? I heard recordings of gigues by Froberger for the harpsichord (can't remember the performer) which were played extremely inegale, as though inegality was the major trait of gigues. Does the title (euqivalent to tocsin in modern French and English, I assume) indicate fast tempo? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
G. Crona was kind enough to send a .jpg of the piece. At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' Damian The Livre de Tablature p.86-87 Goëss Théorbe 170-171 Are there general rules of performance for a French gigue in even metre like this one? I heard recordings of gigues by Froberger for the harpsichord (can't remember the performer) which were played extremely inegale, as though inegality was the major trait of gigues. Does the title (euqivalent to tocsin in modern French and English, I assume) indicate fast tempo? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
On Dec 27, 2008, at 5:14 PM, David Rastall wrote: but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? Yes, but with the sense of alarm. You'd sound a tocsin in case of attack or fire, not for celebration. That's in English, of course. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
You are quite right David. I just looked up 'tocsin' in my OED where the earliest usage in English is in 1598. I just assumed it was an earlier spelling of 'toxin' which led me to my incorrect interpretation. Never encountered the word 'tocsin' with that meaning. The OED reads, an alarm signal, sounded by ringing a bell or bells; used orig. and esp. in reference to France. Thanks for clearing that up. Damian Subject: [LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier I might have missed something here, getting into the discussion late (I rejoined today---hellew everyone), but doesn't the English word tocsin refer to the pealing of a bell? I always thought tocsin came from an old form of French. Could some form of the word have existed in French in the 17th century with a similar meaning? Used perhaps in similar sense to Vallet's piece depicting bells in a village church. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net On Dec 27, 2008, at 7:48 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: At the moment this is only a guess, but I believe the 'tocsin' of Mouton and that of D. Gautier have something to do with disease. The word 'toxin' only come into the English language during the 19th century. My OED defines it originally as A specific poison...produced by a microbe which causes a particular disease.' By this perhaps we can infer that this was closer to the original French meaning than to our current understanding of the word 'toxin' as some kinde of poison. There were many diseases like typhus, smallpox, cholera etc. that wiped out large numbers of people. I need to find a French dictionary like my OED. My Larousse does not have historical meanings or etymologies. In any case, the pieces by Gautier and Mouton are very similar, and it seems to me that the Mouton piece is transposition to f#m of D. Gautier's piece in e minor. The repeated low 'B' has a funerary feeling to me anyway and it appears throughout Mouton's piece as a low C#. But even though it is possible these 'tocsins' were about disease, they are gigues and should be played at faster tempos. Played in the salons of Paris during recurrences of 'la Peste' they were perhaps demonstrations of musical 'black humor.' -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Of course! Livre de Tablature p.86-87 Goëss Théorbe 170-171 The edition of the works of Denis Gaultier in Corpus des Luthistes Français is available and should be sold of every lute player... Andreas Am 26.12.2008 um 21:45 schrieb damian dlugolecki: Are there different versions of le Tocsin of Denis Gautier than the one in the Barbe ms? I recently listened to Claire Antonini's recording of the piece which is substantially different from the one that I know from Barbe. Happy Christmas and New Year! Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier
Thanks Andreas, And wouldn't you know it? My old photocopy ends at page 85. DD From: [1]Andreas Schlegel To: [2]damian dlugolecki Cc: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] le Tocsein de Gautier Of course! Livre de Tablature p.86-87 Goess Theorbe 170-171 The edition of the works of Denis Gaultier in Corpus des Luthistes Franc,ais is available and should be sold of every lute player... Andreas Am 26.12.2008 um 21:45 schrieb damian dlugolecki: Are there different versions of le Tocsin of Denis Gautier than the one in the Barbe ms? I recently listened to Claire Antonini's recording of the piece which is substantially different from the one that I know from Barbe. Happy Christmas and New Year! Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 [5]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch -- References 1. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 2. mailto:dam...@teleport.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
