Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
killermike wrote: I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using a mind mapping tool called Kdissert The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. I recently wrote a short paper using the Freemind mind-mapping application and LyX. I used Freemind to collect ideas, and to add text (sometimes as much as an entire paragraph) as it occurred to me. (Freemind supports long nodes that contain formatted text, URLs, etc.) Then I used Freemind's XSLT export feature, with a stylesheet I kluged up, to export the map into a LyX document, with the hierarchy of the mind map converted into nested Enumerate environments. That document couldn't be rendered by LaTeX due to the enumeration depth limit, but LyX displayed it properly, and I easily cut and pasted text from it into a Koma-article document that became the final paper. One of these days I'll fix up the stylesheet to use the proper schedule of environments for Koma-article, so that I can go right from the Freemind map to a skeletal LyX document that can then be flushed out. (There's supposed to be a Ruby script that converts Freemind documents to LaTeX, but it's apparently no longer available, and there are advantages to doing it with XSLT: you can export from within Freemind, and you're using an engine designed for this purpose, so you can concentrate on the transformations rather than the implementation.) -- Michael Wojcik
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
killermike wrote: I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using a mind mapping tool called Kdissert The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. I recently wrote a short paper using the Freemind mind-mapping application and LyX. I used Freemind to collect ideas, and to add text (sometimes as much as an entire paragraph) as it occurred to me. (Freemind supports long nodes that contain formatted text, URLs, etc.) Then I used Freemind's XSLT export feature, with a stylesheet I kluged up, to export the map into a LyX document, with the hierarchy of the mind map converted into nested Enumerate environments. That document couldn't be rendered by LaTeX due to the enumeration depth limit, but LyX displayed it properly, and I easily cut and pasted text from it into a Koma-article document that became the final paper. One of these days I'll fix up the stylesheet to use the proper schedule of environments for Koma-article, so that I can go right from the Freemind map to a skeletal LyX document that can then be flushed out. (There's supposed to be a Ruby script that converts Freemind documents to LaTeX, but it's apparently no longer available, and there are advantages to doing it with XSLT: you can export from within Freemind, and you're using an engine designed for this purpose, so you can concentrate on the transformations rather than the implementation.) -- Michael Wojcik
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
killermike wrote: > > I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using > a "mind mapping" tool called Kdissert > > The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in > graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists > of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. > > For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used > for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. I recently wrote a short paper using the Freemind mind-mapping application and LyX. I used Freemind to collect ideas, and to add text (sometimes as much as an entire paragraph) as it occurred to me. (Freemind supports "long nodes" that contain formatted text, URLs, etc.) Then I used Freemind's XSLT export feature, with a stylesheet I kluged up, to export the map into a LyX document, with the hierarchy of the mind map converted into nested Enumerate environments. That document couldn't be rendered by LaTeX due to the enumeration depth limit, but LyX displayed it properly, and I easily cut and pasted text from it into a Koma-article document that became the final paper. One of these days I'll fix up the stylesheet to use the proper schedule of environments for Koma-article, so that I can go right from the Freemind map to a skeletal LyX document that can then be flushed out. (There's supposed to be a Ruby script that converts Freemind documents to LaTeX, but it's apparently no longer available, and there are advantages to doing it with XSLT: you can export from within Freemind, and you're using an engine designed for this purpose, so you can concentrate on the transformations rather than the implementation.) -- Michael Wojcik
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Agreed. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Thanks and happy new year to all, Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3871 *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... But you have to take care that the outliner pane does not eat bindings from the main window. This is very tricky: http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3486 Jürgen
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I see. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. Well but you can view the big picture in the Outline dock. In there you can of course expand/collapse any node. You even have a slider to automatically open all nodes in the tree down to a given level. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. Please try 1.5 to understand what I mean. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Agreed. Keyboard access is the main thing to fix in LyX WRT outlining. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Action on whole trees is not yet implemented unfortunately. Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Some of these are possible in the Outline dock, but not all. Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. Checkboxes with percentage completion Sounds interesting. Interoutline linking I don't understand that one... Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Neither this one... Lightning quick interface for the touch typist This is missing. OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be interested in the challenge :-) Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi Abdel, thanks for your quick response ;-) Abdelrazak Younes schrieb: +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. Hopefully soon What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. Any other keyboard combination would be good for me *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... What are the lfuns associated to those? I'like to give it a try (have been experimenting already with bindungs ;-) Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Done #4456 Thanks and Happy New Year and happy LyXing in 2008 Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 04:56, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) That's very acceptable in an outline mode of bookwriting software, because you have body text in normal mode. In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. Checkboxes with percentage completion Sounds interesting. Yes, you could check a subtree when it's complete, and when you come to work in the morning you know what areas still need work. Interoutline linking I don't understand that one... Unnecessary in a bookwriter software, but just for fun I'll explain what it means. In VO, I have one outline called master.otl. It has links _tag_bicycles, _tag_clarinets, tag_family_tasks, and many more. Each has another outline (i.e. /data/otl/bicycles.otl, /data/music/instruments/clarinets.otl and the like). When the cursor is on a link, if you press Ctrl+K, you go right into the outline of the link. From there, pressing Ctrl+N gets you back to where you came from. This feature can be used to build an outline of outlines. So on my computer, my /data/otl/master.otl is the root of what I call a single knowledge tree. Every outline can be navigated to from master.otl. The only trouble with this single knowledge tree is it works only with outlines. But wait, there's more... Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Neither this one... Remember my single knowledge tree, and how all outlines are in the tree, but unfortunately only outlines? I lied, you can place any content in the tree, using executable lines. Let's say you want to have carpicture.jpg in your outline. You'd put the following executable line in your outline: Car picture _exe_kuickshow /data/cars/images/carpicture.jpg. With your cursor on that line, you press the key sequence ,,e and shazam, you're in kuickshow viewing your car. I've had videos in my outlines. I can run LyX on the book from my outline. In other words, between interoutline linking and executable lines, you can have a single tree of knowledge for every piece of knowledge on your computer. You'd start at the top and drill down to what you needed. Lightning quick interface for the touch typist This is missing. Until LyX had this, I wouldn't dream of building the outline from scratch in LyX -- it would slow me down. A second reason I might continue to use VO to outline lyx-destined books is that VO is so darned familiar to me. I use VO hundreds of times a day. All my books. My todo list. The menu layout for my computer (I use UMENU instead of the start menu that comes with Mandriva 2007). My shopping list. My phone lists. When you're that familiar with a computer program, it often makes sense to use it even when, with equal experience in another program, the other program might make more sense. OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be interested in the challenge :-) Good luck on that. Vim is a modal editor, LyX is not (thank goodness), and therefore I don't think you could ever get as good a keyboard interface with LyX. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi, While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports links, keyboard navigation, folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. Daniel
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 16:31, Daniel Lohmann wrote: Hi, While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports links, keyboard navigation, folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. Daniel This is roughly what I use too. :) The Ruby script I use to convert from FreeMind to LaTeX is mm2latex.rb, which I modified so as to give me headings and text if the node contained a new line. Mateo.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Agreed. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Thanks and happy new year to all, Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3871 *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... But you have to take care that the outliner pane does not eat bindings from the main window. This is very tricky: http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3486 Jürgen
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I see. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. Well but you can view the big picture in the Outline dock. In there you can of course expand/collapse any node. You even have a slider to automatically open all nodes in the tree down to a given level. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. Please try 1.5 to understand what I mean. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Agreed. Keyboard access is the main thing to fix in LyX WRT outlining. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Action on whole trees is not yet implemented unfortunately. Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Some of these are possible in the Outline dock, but not all. Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. Checkboxes with percentage completion Sounds interesting. Interoutline linking I don't understand that one... Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Neither this one... Lightning quick interface for the touch typist This is missing. OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be interested in the challenge :-) Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi Abdel, thanks for your quick response ;-) Abdelrazak Younes schrieb: +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. Hopefully soon What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. Any other keyboard combination would be good for me *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... What are the lfuns associated to those? I'like to give it a try (have been experimenting already with bindungs ;-) Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Done #4456 Thanks and Happy New Year and happy LyXing in 2008 Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 04:56, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) That's very acceptable in an outline mode of bookwriting software, because you have body text in normal mode. In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. Checkboxes with percentage completion Sounds interesting. Yes, you could check a subtree when it's complete, and when you come to work in the morning you know what areas still need work. Interoutline linking I don't understand that one... Unnecessary in a bookwriter software, but just for fun I'll explain what it means. In VO, I have one outline called master.otl. It has links _tag_bicycles, _tag_clarinets, tag_family_tasks, and many more. Each has another outline (i.e. /data/otl/bicycles.otl, /data/music/instruments/clarinets.otl and the like). When the cursor is on a link, if you press Ctrl+K, you go right into the outline of the link. From there, pressing Ctrl+N gets you back to where you came from. This feature can be used to build an outline of outlines. So on my computer, my /data/otl/master.otl is the root of what I call a single knowledge tree. Every outline can be navigated to from master.otl. The only trouble with this single knowledge tree is it works only with outlines. But wait, there's more... Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Neither this one... Remember my single knowledge tree, and how all outlines are in the tree, but unfortunately only outlines? I lied, you can place any content in the tree, using executable lines. Let's say you want to have carpicture.jpg in your outline. You'd put the following executable line in your outline: Car picture _exe_kuickshow /data/cars/images/carpicture.jpg. With your cursor on that line, you press the key sequence ,,e and shazam, you're in kuickshow viewing your car. I've had videos in my outlines. I can run LyX on the book from my outline. In other words, between interoutline linking and executable lines, you can have a single tree of knowledge for every piece of knowledge on your computer. You'd start at the top and drill down to what you needed. Lightning quick interface for the touch typist This is missing. Until LyX had this, I wouldn't dream of building the outline from scratch in LyX -- it would slow me down. A second reason I might continue to use VO to outline lyx-destined books is that VO is so darned familiar to me. I use VO hundreds of times a day. All my books. My todo list. The menu layout for my computer (I use UMENU instead of the start menu that comes with Mandriva 2007). My shopping list. My phone lists. When you're that familiar with a computer program, it often makes sense to use it even when, with equal experience in another program, the other program might make more sense. OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be interested in the challenge :-) Good luck on that. Vim is a modal editor, LyX is not (thank goodness), and therefore I don't think you could ever get as good a keyboard interface with LyX. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi, While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports links, keyboard navigation, folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. Daniel
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 16:31, Daniel Lohmann wrote: Hi, While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports links, keyboard navigation, folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. Daniel This is roughly what I use too. :) The Ruby script I use to convert from FreeMind to LaTeX is mm2latex.rb, which I modified so as to give me headings and text if the node contained a new line. Mateo.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Agreed. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Thanks and happy new year to all, Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: > > *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of > > contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction > > seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). > > Right, this should be fixed. http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3871 > > *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the > > toc window. > > Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course > define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... But you have to take care that the outliner pane does not eat bindings from the main window. This is very tricky: http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3486 Jürgen
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I see. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. Well but you can view the big picture in the Outline dock. In there you can of course expand/collapse any node. You even have a slider to automatically open all nodes in the tree down to a given level. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. Please try 1.5 to understand what I mean. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - drag sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Agreed. Keyboard access is the main thing to fix in LyX WRT outlining. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Action on whole trees is not yet implemented unfortunately. Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Some of these are possible in the Outline dock, but not all. Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. Checkboxes with percentage completion Sounds interesting. Interoutline linking I don't understand that one... Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Neither this one... Lightning quick interface for the touch typist This is missing. OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be interested in the challenge :-) Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi Abdel, thanks for your quick response ;-) Abdelrazak Younes schrieb: +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). Right, this should be fixed. Hopefully soon What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) Problems is that shift-tab might be used for editing inside tables and math. Any other keyboard combination would be good for me *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. Those were left out for lack of imagination. But you can of course define your own bindings in the bind file. We are open to ideas... What are the lfuns associated to those? I'like to give it a try (have been experimenting already with bindungs ;-) Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? If they are not already there please do. Done #4456 Thanks and Happy New Year and happy LyXing in 2008 Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 04:56, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: > Steve Litt wrote: > > Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) > That's very acceptable in an outline mode of bookwriting software, because you have body text in normal mode. > In LyX the body text doesn't show of course in the dock, only headlines. > > > Checkboxes with percentage completion > > Sounds interesting. Yes, you could check a subtree when it's complete, and when you come to work in the morning you know what areas still need work. > > > Interoutline linking > > I don't understand that one... Unnecessary in a bookwriter software, but just for fun I'll explain what it means. In VO, I have one outline called master.otl. It has links _tag_bicycles, _tag_clarinets, tag_family_tasks, and many more. Each has another outline (i.e. /data/otl/bicycles.otl, /data/music/instruments/clarinets.otl and the like). When the cursor is on a link, if you press Ctrl+K, you go right into the outline of the link. From there, pressing Ctrl+N gets you back to where you came from. This feature can be used to build an "outline of outlines". So on my computer, my /data/otl/master.otl is the root of what I call a "single knowledge tree". Every outline can be navigated to from master.otl. The only trouble with this single knowledge tree is it works only with outlines. But wait, there's more... > > > Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline > > Neither this one... Remember my single knowledge tree, and how all outlines are in the tree, but unfortunately only outlines? I lied, you can place any content in the tree, using executable lines. Let's say you want to have carpicture.jpg in your outline. You'd put the following executable line in your outline: Car picture _exe_kuickshow /data/cars/images/carpicture.jpg. With your cursor on that line, you press the key sequence ,,e and shazam, you're in kuickshow viewing your car. I've had videos in my outlines. I can run LyX on the book from my outline. In other words, between interoutline linking and executable lines, you can have a single tree of knowledge for every piece of knowledge on your computer. You'd start at the top and drill down to what you needed. > > > Lightning quick interface for the touch typist > > This is missing. Until LyX had this, I wouldn't dream of building the outline from scratch in LyX -- it would slow me down. A second reason I might continue to use VO to outline lyx-destined books is that VO is so darned familiar to me. I use VO hundreds of times a day. All my books. My todo list. The menu layout for my computer (I use UMENU instead of the start menu that comes with Mandriva 2007). My shopping list. My phone lists. When you're that familiar with a computer program, it often makes sense to use it even when, with equal experience in another program, the other program might make more sense. > > OK, thanks for sharing your thought. Maybe some developer will be > interested in the challenge :-) Good luck on that. Vim is a modal editor, LyX is not (thank goodness), and therefore I don't think you could ever get as good a keyboard interface with LyX. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi, While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports links, keyboard navigation, folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. Daniel
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Thursday 03 January 2008 16:31, Daniel Lohmann wrote: > Hi, > > While I have neither used VimOutliner, nor am I a professional book > writer, I usually do outline my texts before starting the actual > writing. I use the mind-mapping tool FreeMind > (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/ ) to do the outlining, which supports > links, keyboard navigation, > folding/unfolding and so on. I then convert the FreeMind mindmap to > LaTeX using a (slightly adopted) Ruby script (supposed to be available > at http://www.duminil.info/doku.php?id=freemindtolatex, but currently > down) and import the resulting LaTeX document into LyX. > > Daniel This is roughly what I use too. :) The Ruby script I use to convert from FreeMind to LaTeX is mm2latex.rb, which I modified so as to give me headings and text if the node contained a new line. Mateo.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? Cheers Hellmut Steve Litt schrieb: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? Cheers Hellmut Steve Litt schrieb: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, I'm also a great fan of outlining serious texts and have also made some experiences with kdissert (being a fan of MindMaps still much longer than of any advanced text system). OTOH I'm using LyX-1.5.3 now for quite a while and am VERY content for my (restricted) expectations. Using the outlining possibilities also to some degree. To answer Abdel's question on the functionality lacking (I just checked with 1.5.3 official release as of Dec 17th, 2007): +++ It is already very helpful to be able to move entire paragraphs using the keyboard when working in the text window. *** keyboard driven jump between the text window and the table of contents window . AFAIK this is not yet possible. The other direction seems to work simply with tab (and to my surprise with shift+tab too). What about shift tab for the lacking jump. Would be similar to other apps like e.g. thunderbird (to jump between folders panel and messages panel) *** keyboard accessibility of the 5 buttons at the lower border of the toc window. This would mean that everything, i.e. writing and outlining could be done using only the keyboard. IMHO this is by far the most efficient way to produce texts. Should I enter enhancement requests into bugzilla? Cheers Hellmut Steve Litt schrieb: On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - drag sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. - dragdrop sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is missing in LyX outlining facilities? I can think of two: - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so helpful for some. IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by clicking in the outlining dock is enough. - drag sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click one of the 4 outline buttons. Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find a volunteer to implement them ;-) If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. Abdel.
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 05:11, Abdelrazak Younes wrote: > Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) > > and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is > > eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. > > > > It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be > > ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this > > led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert > > to LyX. > > > > Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and > > have everything come out well in the end. > > > > This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough > > draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. > > Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this > > is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to > > have the book really take shape in LyX. > > So why don't you use LyX-1.5 directly then? Or more specifically what is > missing in LyX outlining facilities? He Abdel, I haven't yet used 1.5, but when I do I'm pretty sure I'll find one thing missing in its outlining facilities: speed. VimOutliner (VO) was built for speed from the bottom up. 100% keyboard driven, no need to reach for a mouse. It uses the ultra touch-typist-friendly Vim as an engine, and adds ultra-quick ,, commands for managing the outline. I can compose and organize as fast as I can think -- a huge advantage when planning a book. > I can think of two: > > - section folding/unfolding: I don't really understand why this is so > helpful for some. I couldn't live without folding (which in general outliner-speak is called expand/collapse. It allows you to view the big picture and then drill down. It's a way of impedance matching the work to the mind. It's not about navigation, it's about getting the optimal view of the work. > IMO, the ability to jump from section to section by > clicking in the outlining dock is enough. That sounds like an excellent feature. Perhaps it can be put into VimOutliner. > - drag sections in the outlining dock: right now you have to click > one of the 4 outline buttons. Yes, it sounds like dragdrop section moving would speed things up. VimOutliner doesn't have it either. With VO, you collapse the section you want to move, delete with dd, move to its desired destination, and press p or P as appropriate. This sounds very Mickey Mouse when described, but it's not that bad. > > Both features are not too difficult to implement provided that you find > a volunteer to implement them ;-) > > If you (and others) could describe what you would like to have in the > Wiki, it would certainly be helpful. I'm not too good with a Wiki, so I'll describe VimOutliner's features right here: Promote/demote -- headlines or whole trees Expand/collapse (also called folding) Expand/collapse by headline, by tree, and outline wide Body text that wraps (headlines don't wrap) Checkboxes with percentage completion Interoutline linking Executable lines -- any content can be viewed/executed from an outline Lightning quick interface for the touch typist I'm not sure all of the preceding are necessary for an document's outline mode. HTH SteveT Steve Litt Books written in LyX: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. Fortunately, recent versions of LyX include an outline mode similar to what MS Word has had forever. This means that in all stages of development, outlining methods can be used. Early, when outlining speed is paramount, VO is used for speed, but some writing and formatting capabilities are available.. Later, when writing and formatting capabilities are most important, LyX is used, with the advantage that some outlining capabilities are still retained. Stay tuned... SteveT Steve Litt Author: Universal Troubleshooting Process books and courseware http://www.troubleshooters.com/
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
This is quite interesting to me as I am also interested in writing a book with Lyx. I think I have seen some of your discussions in using VIM, and I guess now VIM outliner, with Lyx. Could you provide links to documents on your website and possibly posts on the Lyx user's mailing list where you discuss the use of VIM with Lyx? TIA Bob
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my alternative experience. I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - outline, etc. My first experience was with Thinktank back in the prehistoric era. It had a neat feature called Hoist: one part of the outline was made to appear as the whole - a chapter in a book could be hoisted for that day's work and the rest of the material was well and truly out of the way. It is a form of folding. This hoisting is **very** valuable when writing longer texts. Emacs can be made to behave the same way with outline-minor-mode and foldout. The hoist is actually the foldout-zoom-subtree command. You can use outlining and write directly in LaTeX. So, what I do is much as described by Steve except at the end I can import a LaTeX file into LyX. Of course, it depends on whether you like emacs. I understand that not all people do :-). It would be a valuable feature to add directly to LyX (in case the developers have a lot of extra time on their hands!!!). Cheers, Alan
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 03:54:28 Typhoon wrote: Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my alternative experience. I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - outline, etc. I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using a mind mapping tool called Kdissert. You can see some of its output in this posting (scroll down): http://www.unmusic.co.uk/index.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=29 The great thing about outlining graphically, is that you can put an idea down on the page without having to decide where it appears in the structure. This is useful for forgetful people like myself as I don't have to keep things in my head. The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. In the case of a detailed pitch, outlining and composing the pitch can be combined. I hear that 1.6 may contain folding section features? If so, this will make LyX even more plausible as an outliner. For the book that I am writing, I am hoping that I can start creating chapter outlines from my written notes using the graphical tool. Once this is done, I can start writing the actual chapters by flitting between the written notes and the graphical mind-map. -- http://www.unmusic.co.uk - about me, writing, music, gender, geek sitcom etc.
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. Fortunately, recent versions of LyX include an outline mode similar to what MS Word has had forever. This means that in all stages of development, outlining methods can be used. Early, when outlining speed is paramount, VO is used for speed, but some writing and formatting capabilities are available.. Later, when writing and formatting capabilities are most important, LyX is used, with the advantage that some outlining capabilities are still retained. Stay tuned... SteveT Steve Litt Author: Universal Troubleshooting Process books and courseware http://www.troubleshooters.com/
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
This is quite interesting to me as I am also interested in writing a book with Lyx. I think I have seen some of your discussions in using VIM, and I guess now VIM outliner, with Lyx. Could you provide links to documents on your website and possibly posts on the Lyx user's mailing list where you discuss the use of VIM with Lyx? TIA Bob
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my alternative experience. I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - outline, etc. My first experience was with Thinktank back in the prehistoric era. It had a neat feature called Hoist: one part of the outline was made to appear as the whole - a chapter in a book could be hoisted for that day's work and the rest of the material was well and truly out of the way. It is a form of folding. This hoisting is **very** valuable when writing longer texts. Emacs can be made to behave the same way with outline-minor-mode and foldout. The hoist is actually the foldout-zoom-subtree command. You can use outlining and write directly in LaTeX. So, what I do is much as described by Steve except at the end I can import a LaTeX file into LyX. Of course, it depends on whether you like emacs. I understand that not all people do :-). It would be a valuable feature to add directly to LyX (in case the developers have a lot of extra time on their hands!!!). Cheers, Alan
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 03:54:28 Typhoon wrote: Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my alternative experience. I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - outline, etc. I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using a mind mapping tool called Kdissert. You can see some of its output in this posting (scroll down): http://www.unmusic.co.uk/index.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=29 The great thing about outlining graphically, is that you can put an idea down on the page without having to decide where it appears in the structure. This is useful for forgetful people like myself as I don't have to keep things in my head. The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. In the case of a detailed pitch, outlining and composing the pitch can be combined. I hear that 1.6 may contain folding section features? If so, this will make LyX even more plausible as an outliner. For the book that I am writing, I am hoping that I can start creating chapter outlines from my written notes using the graphical tool. Once this is done, I can start writing the actual chapters by flitting between the written notes and the graphical mind-map. -- http://www.unmusic.co.uk - about me, writing, music, gender, geek sitcom etc.
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Hi all, For the first time I've gone beyond book outlining in VO (VimOutliner) and am actually writing the book (via body text) in VO. What this does is eliminate the artificial demarkation between outlining and writing. It's very possible, and in fact quite likely, that some chapters will be ready for writing long before others are fully outlined. In the past this led me to either retard writing certain chapters, or prematurely convert to LyX. Now, to an extent, I can write one chapter while outlining another, and have everything come out well in the end. This is not a rigorous process. The VO writing will be only a very rough draft. It can't include things like Tips, Notes, character styles etc. Well, it could, but not without time consuming difficulty. Instead, this is an informal extension of traditional outlining. The goal is still to have the book really take shape in LyX. Fortunately, recent versions of LyX include an outline mode similar to what MS Word has had forever. This means that in all stages of development, outlining methods can be used. Early, when outlining speed is paramount, VO is used for speed, but some writing and formatting capabilities are available.. Later, when writing and formatting capabilities are most important, LyX is used, with the advantage that some outlining capabilities are still retained. Stay tuned... SteveT Steve Litt Author: Universal Troubleshooting Process books and courseware http://www.troubleshooters.com/
I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
This is quite interesting to me as I am also interested in writing a book with Lyx. I think I have seen some of your discussions in using VIM, and I guess now VIM outliner, with Lyx. Could you provide links to documents on your website and possibly posts on the Lyx user's mailing list where you discuss the use of VIM with Lyx? TIA Bob
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my alternative experience. I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - outline, etc. My first experience was with Thinktank back in the prehistoric era. It had a neat feature called "Hoist": one part of the outline was made to appear as the whole - a chapter in a book could be "hoisted" for that day's work and the rest of the material was well and truly out of the way. It is a form of "folding". This "hoisting" is **very** valuable when writing longer texts. Emacs can be made to behave the same way with outline-minor-mode and foldout. The "hoist" is actually the foldout-zoom-subtree command. You can use outlining and write directly in LaTeX. So, what I do is much as described by Steve except at the end I can import a LaTeX file into LyX. Of course, it depends on whether you like emacs. I understand that not all people do :-). It would be a valuable feature to add directly to LyX (in case the developers have a lot of extra time on their hands!!!). Cheers, Alan
Re: I'm writing a book in VimOutliner
On Monday 31 December 2007 03:54:28 Typhoon wrote: > Since there seems to be some interest in this, I would like to offer my > alternative experience. > > I am a great believer in outlines for anything longer than a letter to > Mum. I also use them the way that Steve talks about - outline - write - > outline, etc. > I'm also a fan of outlining. For the last year or so I have a been using a "mind mapping" tool called Kdissert. You can see some of its output in this posting (scroll down): http://www.unmusic.co.uk/index.php?name=News=article=29 The great thing about outlining graphically, is that you can put an idea down on the page without having to decide where it appears in the structure. This is useful for forgetful people like myself as I don't have to keep things in my head. The problem with this tool is that editors don't usually accept pitches in graphical form. This means that the process of pitching an article consists of mapping it out and then writing it up, which is rather long-winded. For this reason, like Steve, I've started to wonder if LyX itself can be used for outlining thanks to the new outlining sidebar. In the case of a detailed pitch, outlining and composing the pitch can be combined. I hear that 1.6 may contain folding section features? If so, this will make LyX even more plausible as an outliner. For the book that I am writing, I am hoping that I can start creating chapter outlines from my written notes using the graphical tool. Once this is done, I can start writing the actual chapters by flitting between the written notes and the graphical mind-map. -- http://www.unmusic.co.uk - about me, writing, music, gender, geek sitcom etc.
