Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Michael Wojcik wrote:
 Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
 
   quote formats with space delimited paragraphs, quotation uses
   indented paragraphs.
 
 Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
 the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; 
...
 - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
 first paragraph with a little ERT.

You can set the first paragraph of the mode to non-indenting in the
FormatParagraph menu. (A generic solution would need some ERT or a
new Quotation layout, though.

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Michael Wojcik wrote:
 Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
 
   quote formats with space delimited paragraphs, quotation uses
   indented paragraphs.
 
 Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
 the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; 
...
 - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
 first paragraph with a little ERT.

You can set the first paragraph of the mode to non-indenting in the
FormatParagraph menu. (A generic solution would need some ERT or a
new Quotation layout, though.

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Michael Wojcik wrote:
> Rich Shepard wrote:
> >On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
> >
> > > "quote" formats with space delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses
> > > indented paragraphs.
 
> Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
> the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; 
...
> - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
> first paragraph with a little ERT.

You can set the first paragraph of the mode to non-indenting in the
Format>Paragraph menu. (A generic solution would need some ERT or a
new Quotation layout, though.

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Michael Wojcik]

Rich Shepard wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.
   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.
The description of the two environments in either the Tutorial or the 
User's Guide (I think the latter) emphasizes the distinction in 
paragraph-separation style as the difference between the two.  I don't 
recall it even suggesting that quote was for short quotations and 
quotation for longer ones.

Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; that'd 
better match most of my quotations that cross a paragraph boundary, 
since they often don't start at the beginning of a paragraph.  But 
that's minor - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
first paragraph with a little ERT.

--
Michael Wojcik

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Michael Wojcik]

Rich Shepard wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.
   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.
The description of the two environments in either the Tutorial or the 
User's Guide (I think the latter) emphasizes the distinction in 
paragraph-separation style as the difference between the two.  I don't 
recall it even suggesting that quote was for short quotations and 
quotation for longer ones.

Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; that'd 
better match most of my quotations that cross a paragraph boundary, 
since they often don't start at the beginning of a paragraph.  But 
that's minor - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
first paragraph with a little ERT.

--
Michael Wojcik

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Michael Wojcik]

Rich Shepard wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:
Did you ever try both of them? Actually, "quote" formats with space
delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.
   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.
The description of the two environments in either the Tutorial or the 
User's Guide (I think the latter) emphasizes the distinction in 
paragraph-separation style as the difference between the two.  I don't 
recall it even suggesting that "quote" was for short quotations and 
"quotation" for longer ones.

Personally, I'd like a quoting environment where all paragraphs except 
the first were indented, and without spacing between paragraphs; that'd 
better match most of my quotations that cross a paragraph boundary, 
since they often don't start at the beginning of a paragraph.  But 
that's minor - I imagine I can probably suppress the indentation of the 
first paragraph with a little ERT.

--
Michael Wojcik

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

Yes. But it was several years ago, and I forgot the details. The only thing
I remembered was actually from the thread that Richard mentioned.

 So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
 FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
 naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
 and Zitat (lang).)

Do you have a better translation?


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Georg Baum wrote:
 G. Milde wrote:
 
  Actually, quote formats with space
  delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.
 
  So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
  FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
  naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
  and Zitat (lang).)
 
 Do you have a better translation?

This one is tricky, as it should be reasonable short

People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
  
Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

(ok, if you set a paragraph to Zitat, the status line will tell you the
English name)

Another option would be to tell about the difference

   Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)
   
This are the terms used in FormatDokumentAbsatztrennung.
However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
separation?

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:

 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

Günter,

   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.

Thanks for pointing this out,

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
http://www.appl-ecosys.com   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

 People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
 English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
   
 Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

Given the fact that the english names are simply Quote and Quotation
(without mentioning the paragraph separation) I think that this translation
is the best. People who know LaTeX know what is meant. People who don't
know LaTeX may be confused, but the current translation is misleading, too.

 Another option would be to tell about the difference
 
Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)

 This are the terms used in FormatDokumentAbsatztrennung.
 However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
 and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
 separation?

I don't think so. And even if this was clear we should tell the same in the
english original.


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Matej Cepl]

G. Milde wrote:
 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

The logic of these two environments (sorry, layouts :-)) I've got from some
LaTeX book (Kopka-Daly?) was that quotation is good for multi-paragraph
quotations, whereas anything shorter should use quote.

Matj

-- 
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488
 
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
   -- Dan Stanford

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

Yes. But it was several years ago, and I forgot the details. The only thing
I remembered was actually from the thread that Richard mentioned.

 So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
 FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
 naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
 and Zitat (lang).)

Do you have a better translation?


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Georg Baum wrote:
 G. Milde wrote:
 
  Actually, quote formats with space
  delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.
 
  So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
  FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
  naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
  and Zitat (lang).)
 
 Do you have a better translation?

This one is tricky, as it should be reasonable short

People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
  
Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

(ok, if you set a paragraph to Zitat, the status line will tell you the
English name)

Another option would be to tell about the difference

   Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)
   
This are the terms used in FormatDokumentAbsatztrennung.
However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
separation?

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:

 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

Günter,

   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.

Thanks for pointing this out,

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
http://www.appl-ecosys.com   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

 People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
 English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
   
 Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

Given the fact that the english names are simply Quote and Quotation
(without mentioning the paragraph separation) I think that this translation
is the best. People who know LaTeX know what is meant. People who don't
know LaTeX may be confused, but the current translation is misleading, too.

 Another option would be to tell about the difference
 
Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)

 This are the terms used in FormatDokumentAbsatztrennung.
 However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
 and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
 separation?

I don't think so. And even if this was clear we should tell the same in the
english original.


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Matej Cepl]

G. Milde wrote:
 Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
 delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

The logic of these two environments (sorry, layouts :-)) I've got from some
LaTeX book (Kopka-Daly?) was that quotation is good for multi-paragraph
quotations, whereas anything shorter should use quote.

Matj

-- 
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488
 
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
   -- Dan Stanford

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

> Did you ever try both of them? Actually, "quote" formats with space
> delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.

Yes. But it was several years ago, and I forgot the details. The only thing
I remembered was actually from the thread that Richard mentioned.

> So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
> Format>Document>Paragraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
> naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as "Zitat (kurz)"
> and "Zitat (lang)".)

Do you have a better translation?


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On 21.01.05, Georg Baum wrote:
> G. Milde wrote:
> 
> > Actually, "quote" formats with space
> > delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.
> 
> > So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in
> > Format>Document>Paragraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
> > naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as "Zitat (kurz)"
> > and "Zitat (lang)".)
> 
> Do you have a better translation?

This one is tricky, as it should be reasonable short

People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
  
Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

(ok, if you set a paragraph to "Zitat", the status line will tell you the
English name)

Another option would be to tell about the difference

   Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)
   
This are the terms used in Format>Dokument>Absatztrennung.
However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
separation?

Günter

-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, G. Milde wrote:

> Did you ever try both of them? Actually, "quote" formats with space
> delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.

Günter,

   How interesting! I have not noticed that although I use both in my book
and in reports. I guess that I never looked closely enough at the two of
them side-by-side to see that.

Thanks for pointing this out,

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

G. Milde wrote:

> People knowing LaTeX (or looking for info in LaTeX docs or asking the
> English-spoken lyx-users list) would be better of with
>   
> Zitat (quote)   vs.  Zitat (quotation)

Given the fact that the english names are simply Quote and Quotation
(without mentioning the paragraph separation) I think that this translation
is the best. People who know LaTeX know what is meant. People who don't
know LaTeX may be confused, but the current translation is misleading, too.

> Another option would be to tell about the difference
> 
>Zitat (Einrückung)  vs. Zitat (Abstand)
>
> This are the terms used in Format>Dokument>Absatztrennung.
> However, this could be misleading, as the quote itself is both, indented
> and space surrounded. Would it be clear that this means paragraph
> separation?

I don't think so. And even if this was clear we should tell the same in the
english original.


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Matej Cepl]

G. Milde wrote:
> Did you ever try both of them? Actually, "quote" formats with space
> delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.

The logic of these two environments (sorry, layouts :-)) I've got from some
LaTeX book (Kopka-Daly?) was that quotation is good for multi-paragraph
quotations, whereas anything shorter should use quote.

Matěj

-- 
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488
 
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
   -- Dan Stanford

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

Steve Litt wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
 environments. I remember one is for short quotes like to see her is to
 love her while the other is for long quotes like Four score and seven
 years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
 nation, conceived...

I read somewhere:

quote is short - short quotation
quotation is longer - long quotation


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Steve Litt]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 12:11 pm, Georg Baum wrote:
 Steve Litt wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
  environments. I remember one is for short quotes like to see her is to
  love her while the other is for long quotes like Four score and seven
  years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
  nation, conceived...

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation


 Georg

Thanks Georg!

I'll format the quotation appropriately, and continue writing my book now.

Steve

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation

Georg/Steve,

   Yup. There's a thread in the archives from last year when I asked the same
question. The mental neumonic (sort of) is short word == short (usually 1
paragraph) quotation, long word == long (multi-paragraph) quotation. It's
worked just fine for me this way.

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
http://www.appl-ecosys.com   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation

Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in 
FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
and Zitat (lang).)

However, as by default, quotation indents also the first paragraph, it
is indeed better to use quote for 1-paragraph quotes. 

Now we have some quantificatin of short and long, as well as the
second dimension paragraph-separator:


indented paragraphs space-delimited paragraphs
    --- --

 1 par quotequote   quote
(or quotation with
\noindent)

 2+ par quote   quotation   quote


Günter



-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

Steve Litt wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
 environments. I remember one is for short quotes like to see her is to
 love her while the other is for long quotes like Four score and seven
 years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
 nation, conceived...

I read somewhere:

quote is short - short quotation
quotation is longer - long quotation


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Steve Litt]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 12:11 pm, Georg Baum wrote:
 Steve Litt wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
  environments. I remember one is for short quotes like to see her is to
  love her while the other is for long quotes like Four score and seven
  years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
  nation, conceived...

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation


 Georg

Thanks Georg!

I'll format the quotation appropriately, and continue writing my book now.

Steve

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation

Georg/Steve,

   Yup. There's a thread in the archives from last year when I asked the same
question. The mental neumonic (sort of) is short word == short (usually 1
paragraph) quotation, long word == long (multi-paragraph) quotation. It's
worked just fine for me this way.

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
http://www.appl-ecosys.com   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:

 I read somewhere:

 quote is short - short quotation
 quotation is longer - long quotation

Did you ever try both of them? Actually, quote formats with space
delimited paragraphs, quotation uses indented paragraphs.

So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in 
FormatDocumentParagraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as Zitat (kurz)
and Zitat (lang).)

However, as by default, quotation indents also the first paragraph, it
is indeed better to use quote for 1-paragraph quotes. 

Now we have some quantificatin of short and long, as well as the
second dimension paragraph-separator:


indented paragraphs space-delimited paragraphs
    --- --

 1 par quotequote   quote
(or quotation with
\noindent)

 2+ par quote   quotation   quote


Günter



-- 
G.Milde web.de

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Georg Baum]

Steve Litt wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
> environments. I remember one is for short quotes like "to see her is to
> love her" while the other is for long quotes like "Four score and seven
> years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
> nation, conceived..."

I read somewhere:

quote is short -> short quotation
quotation is longer -> long quotation


Georg

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Steve Litt]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 12:11 pm, Georg Baum wrote:
> Steve Litt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The book document class gives you both the quote and quotation
> > environments. I remember one is for short quotes like "to see her is to
> > love her" while the other is for long quotes like "Four score and seven
> > years ago today, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new
> > nation, conceived..."
>
> I read somewhere:
>
> quote is short -> short quotation
> quotation is longer -> long quotation
>
>
> Georg

Thanks Georg!

I'll format the quotation appropriately, and continue writing my book now.

Steve

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:

> I read somewhere:
>
> quote is short -> short quotation
> quotation is longer -> long quotation

Georg/Steve,

   Yup. There's a thread in the archives from last year when I asked the same
question. The mental neumonic (sort of) is short word == short (usually 1
paragraph) quotation, long word == long (multi-paragraph) quotation. It's
worked just fine for me this way.

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: When to use quote and quotation

[G. Milde]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Georg Baum wrote:
>
> I read somewhere:
>
> quote is short -> short quotation
> quotation is longer -> long quotation

Did you ever try both of them? Actually, "quote" formats with space
delimited paragraphs, "quotation" uses indented paragraphs.

So, IMHO you should use whatever suits to the general layout you have in 
Format>Document>Paragraph-separation.  (This is also why I object to the
naming of quote and quotation in the German translation as "Zitat (kurz)"
and "Zitat (lang)".)

However, as by default, "quotation" indents also the first paragraph, it
is indeed better to use "quote" for 1-paragraph quotes. 

Now we have some quantificatin of "short" and "long", as well as the
second dimension "paragraph-separator":


indented paragraphs space-delimited paragraphs
    --- --

 1 par quotequote   quote
(or quotation with
\noindent)

 2+ par quote   quotation   quote


Günter



-- 
G.Milde web.de