Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Michael Wojcik]

rgheck wrote:
 Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
 I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually
 not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.

 What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too
 the-non-tex-way ?

 I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in
 Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are
 re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that
 it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks?
 But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at
 least during the document-creation process.

I think even that statement might be a more-generous take on the
matter than I would have.

There are two ways a LaTeX editor could show page breaks: by guessing,
which is likely to be inaccurate (so of little value), not to mention
a huge amount of work; or by continually rerunning the toolchain (as
with Instant Preview, but greatly aggravated), which is impractical
and a waste of resources.

More importantly, looking for formatting results such as the location
of page breaks from LyX contradicts the entire design philosophy
behind late-formatting document production toolchains. There are
early-formatting toolchains (so-called WYSIWYG word processors) for
those who want early formatting. TeX, LaTeX, and LyX are not designed
that way.

And, as Richard says, early formatting conflates content and
presentation. There's a reason why the Greek rhetors put style and
delivery in separate canons: we can only concentrate on so many
details at once.

As with most things, there are different benefits and costs to early
and late rendering. Trying to make one tool do both is likely to
produce something with the faults of each.

That doesn't mean it's not useful to ask these questions, of course.
Understanding why LyX doesn't show page breaks means understanding the
principle of late rendering, and hopefully why it's valuable.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric  Writing, Michigan State University

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Michael Wojcik]

rgheck wrote:
 Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
 I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually
 not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.

 What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too
 the-non-tex-way ?

 I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in
 Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are
 re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that
 it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks?
 But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at
 least during the document-creation process.

I think even that statement might be a more-generous take on the
matter than I would have.

There are two ways a LaTeX editor could show page breaks: by guessing,
which is likely to be inaccurate (so of little value), not to mention
a huge amount of work; or by continually rerunning the toolchain (as
with Instant Preview, but greatly aggravated), which is impractical
and a waste of resources.

More importantly, looking for formatting results such as the location
of page breaks from LyX contradicts the entire design philosophy
behind late-formatting document production toolchains. There are
early-formatting toolchains (so-called WYSIWYG word processors) for
those who want early formatting. TeX, LaTeX, and LyX are not designed
that way.

And, as Richard says, early formatting conflates content and
presentation. There's a reason why the Greek rhetors put style and
delivery in separate canons: we can only concentrate on so many
details at once.

As with most things, there are different benefits and costs to early
and late rendering. Trying to make one tool do both is likely to
produce something with the faults of each.

That doesn't mean it's not useful to ask these questions, of course.
Understanding why LyX doesn't show page breaks means understanding the
principle of late rendering, and hopefully why it's valuable.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric  Writing, Michigan State University

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Michael Wojcik]

rgheck wrote:
> Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
>>> I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually
>>> not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.
>>>
>> What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too
>> the-non-tex-way ?
>>
> I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in
> Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are
> re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that
> it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks?
> But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at
> least during the document-creation process.

I think even that statement might be a more-generous take on the
matter than I would have.

There are two ways a LaTeX editor could show page breaks: by guessing,
which is likely to be inaccurate (so of little value), not to mention
a huge amount of work; or by continually rerunning the toolchain (as
with Instant Preview, but greatly aggravated), which is impractical
and a waste of resources.

More importantly, looking for formatting results such as the location
of page breaks from LyX contradicts the entire design philosophy
behind late-formatting document production toolchains. There are
early-formatting toolchains (so-called WYSIWYG word processors) for
those who want early formatting. TeX, LaTeX, and LyX are not designed
that way.

And, as Richard says, early formatting conflates content and
presentation. There's a reason why the Greek rhetors put style and
delivery in separate canons: we can only concentrate on so many
details at once.

As with most things, there are different benefits and costs to early
and late rendering. Trying to make one tool do both is likely to
produce something with the faults of each.

That doesn't mean it's not useful to ask these questions, of course.
Understanding why LyX doesn't show page breaks means understanding the
principle of late rendering, and hopefully why it's valuable.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric & Writing, Michigan State University

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Manveru]

2008/12/16 Nicolás becon...@gmail.com:
 You say nor the TeX way. Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere
 front-end for TeX, so you should say nor the LyX way. :-)

Both are true in this case...

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Nicolás schreef:

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. 
They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's 
desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to 
your

wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to 
answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that way. 
What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, 
in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful and 
comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks 
to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on their 
own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be 
fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. 


I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in 
LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.
What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


Vincent

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually 
not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.


What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in 
Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are 
re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that 
it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks? 
But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at 
least during the document-creation process. One should only want to see 
(and one only really needs to see) page breaks once the document is 
nearly done. At that point, one can ViewDVI, and fix as necessary.


A good implementation of reverse search would solve most of the problems 
that this workflow creates.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Manveru]

2008/12/16 Nicolás becon...@gmail.com:
 You say nor the TeX way. Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere
 front-end for TeX, so you should say nor the LyX way. :-)

Both are true in this case...

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Nicolás schreef:

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. 
They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's 
desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to 
your

wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to 
answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that way. 
What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, 
in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful and 
comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks 
to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on their 
own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be 
fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. 


I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in 
LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.
What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


Vincent

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually 
not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.


What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in 
Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are 
re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that 
it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks? 
But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at 
least during the document-creation process. One should only want to see 
(and one only really needs to see) page breaks once the document is 
nearly done. At that point, one can ViewDVI, and fix as necessary.


A good implementation of reverse search would solve most of the problems 
that this workflow creates.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Manveru]

2008/12/16 Nicolás :
> You say "nor the TeX way". Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere
> front-end for TeX, so you should say "nor the LyX way". :-)

Both are true in this case...

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Nicolás schreef:

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. 
They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's 
desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to 
your

wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to 
answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that way. 
What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, 
in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful and 
comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks 
to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on their 
own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be 
fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. 


I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in 
LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.
What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


Vincent

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
I guess he was just not aware that [showing page breaks] is actually 
not feasible in LyX, as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.


What if it would be feasible ? Would it be an added value or is it too 
the-non-tex-way ?


I don't see the value myself. As I said before, in LaTeX (unlike in 
Word) page breaks can change by the character, as paragraphs are 
re-broken and floats are repositioned. I guess that makes me think that 
it isn't even feasible---where do floats appear, vis-a-vis page breaks? 
But even if it were, it encourages one to think in the wrong terms, at 
least during the document-creation process. One should only want to see 
(and one only really needs to see) page breaks once the document is 
nearly done. At that point, one can View>DVI, and fix as necessary.


A good implementation of reverse search would solve most of the problems 
that this workflow creates.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Nicolás]

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on

the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that 
way. What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful 
and comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on 
their own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in LyX, 
as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.

You say nor the TeX way. Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere front-end for TeX, 
so you should say nor the LyX way. :-)

Cheers,
Nicolás

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Nicolás]

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on

the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that 
way. What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful 
and comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on 
their own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in LyX, 
as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.

You say nor the TeX way. Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere front-end for TeX, 
so you should say nor the LyX way. :-)

Cheers,
Nicolás

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Nicolás]

Rich Shepard wrote:

  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance 
items on

the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich



Well, I found this answer to be a little rude, and this moved me to answer. Maybe it was not the intention, but it looks to me that 
way. What is wrong with asking LyX to be adapted to one's needs? Nothing, in my opinion. If LyX is becoming a more and more powerful 
and comfortable to use tool is thanks to the developers, but also thanks to all the people that suggest feature improvements (based on 
their own needs). A different thing is demanding your request to be fulfilled! But that was not what bigblop did. He was just wondering 
about any potential plans for showing separate pages in LyX. I guess he was just not aware that this is actually not feasible in LyX, 
as Richard G. Heck kindly explained.

You say "nor the TeX way". Well, if I am not wrong, LyX is not a mere front-end for TeX, 
so you should say "nor the LyX way". :-)

Cheers,
Nicolás

Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[bigblop]

Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Show-pagebreaks-in-the-editor--tp1647346p1647346.html
Sent from the LyX - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

bigblop wrote:
 Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
 instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

No.

 Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
 when pages are shown separately in the editor.

This does not make sense in the LyX context.

Jürgen

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

bigblop wrote:
  

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.



This does not make sense in the LyX context.

  
To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way 
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a 
single character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something 
completely different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or 
maybe you're outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the 
traditional sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, rgheck wrote:


To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a single
character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something completely
different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or maybe you're
outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the traditional
sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[bigblop]

Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Show-pagebreaks-in-the-editor--tp1647346p1647346.html
Sent from the LyX - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

bigblop wrote:
 Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
 instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

No.

 Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
 when pages are shown separately in the editor.

This does not make sense in the LyX context.

Jürgen

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

bigblop wrote:
  

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.



This does not make sense in the LyX context.

  
To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way 
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a 
single character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something 
completely different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or 
maybe you're outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the 
traditional sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, rgheck wrote:


To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a single
character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something completely
different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or maybe you're
outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the traditional
sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[bigblop]

Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Show-pagebreaks-in-the-editor--tp1647346p1647346.html
Sent from the LyX - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

bigblop wrote:
> Are there any plans in the future to show separate pages in the lyx editor
> instead of one long background with potential unlimited margins?

No.

> Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
> when pages are shown separately in the editor.

This does not make sense in the LyX context.

Jürgen

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[rgheck]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

bigblop wrote:
  

Even though I much prefer LyX over Microsoft Word it just looks much better
when pages are shown separately in the editor.



This does not make sense in the LyX context.

  
To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way 
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a 
single character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something 
completely different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or 
maybe you're outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the 
traditional sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


rh

Re: Show pagebreaks in the editor?

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, rgheck wrote:


To elaborate: LyX relies upon LaTeX to do the formatting. LyX has no way
of knowing where LaTeX might decide to break the pages, and even a single
character one on page could cause LaTeX to do something completely
different several pages before (because it moves a float). Or maybe you're
outputting HTML, in which case there aren't pages in the traditional
sense. So, as Jurgen said, this isn't The LyX Way.


  Nor the TeX way. If someone wants a WISIWIG writing tool there are
multiple word processors that are specifically designed for that. They'll
show page breaks, different typefaces, and all the other appearance items on
the screen as the document is being written. If that's what's desired, use
those tools and don't ask that a totally different tool be adapted to your
wants.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863