Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
In article , > Well we either need more buffer on the Model T side or > (counterintuitively) less buffering on the PC side. Heh, a varient of this got hashed out in, what, the 200x's or the 201x's, with IP flow control. > For FTDI devices on Windows you can set the buffers to trigger > data-ready events on 1 byte. I don't want to, but I guess I should get my hands on a semi-current windows machine. :-( > -- John. -- Willard Goosey goo...@sdc.org Socorro, New Mexico, USA I search my heart and find Cimmeria, land of Darkness and the Night. --Robert E. Howard
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:24 PM Willard Goosey wrote: > > I wouldn't be surprised if modern MacOS has the same issues. Why not throw > a couple Kbytes at the serial driver for buffer? RAM is cheap! > > Well we either need more buffer on the Model T side or (counterintuitively) less buffering on the PC side. For FTDI devices on Windows you can set the buffers to trigger data-ready events on 1 byte. -- John.
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
At these low speeds I'd be surprised if the server needs to buffer anything but anything's possible. I don't recall having any problems when connected over a 'real' RS-232 port using Hyperterm on WIN but I guess I'll have to revisit this one day. Back in the days when we first put the M100 on the internet ISTR that the issue was the fact that the 'modem' (or USB<>RS-232 adapter) sends packets instead of one-byte-at-a-time as with 'real' RS-232, and reducing packet length to 1 character solved the problem. There's also the issue of whether the USB adapter honors XON/XOFF... In any case, a blanket statement that file transfer at any higher baud rate than 600 or 1200 bd is never reliable is a little misleading. m - Original Message - From: John R. Hogerhuis To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB? On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willard Goosey wrote: It's basically bufferbloat on the other side. The PC/Mac/whatev recieves an XOFF and sticks it in a large recieve buffer and goes on with blasting bytes at the M100. By the time it gets around to actually *processing* the XOFF it's already overrun the M100's buffer. :-( Faster serial transfers work best with things like old DOS term programs that don't know about 16650 FIFOs. ;-) I never had any trouble with Procomm under msdos on a 386. Minicom under Linux is nothing but trouble! My experience is the same. I've found it to be Linux specific. That's why hardware flow control, or inserting some delays is the only way to avoid overrun. Also the USB-Serial drivers add some buffering so that's another variable. Windows doesn't seem to have the problem based on most reports. I think the fix would be for Linux to read ahead in its buffers for XOFF character to see if it needs to flow-off. But I doubt the maintainer will fix. At some point it was Alan Cox. I don't think there's any way to fix this outside the kernel. -- John.
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
In article , John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > My experience is the same. I've found it to be Linux specific. That's why > hardware flow control, or inserting some delays is the only way to avoid > overrun. I wouldn't be surprised if modern MacOS has the same issues. Why not throw a couple Kbytes at the serial driver for buffer? RAM is cheap! > -- John. Willard -- Willard Goosey goo...@sdc.org Socorro, New Mexico, USA I search my heart and find Cimmeria, land of Darkness and the Night. --Robert E. Howard
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willard Goosey wrote: > > It's basically bufferbloat on the other side. The PC/Mac/whatev recieves > an XOFF and sticks it in a large recieve buffer and goes on with blasting > bytes at the M100. By the time it gets around to actually *processing* the > XOFF it's already overrun the M100's buffer. :-( > > Faster serial transfers work best with things like old DOS term programs > that don't know about 16650 FIFOs. ;-) > > I never had any trouble with Procomm under msdos on a 386. Minicom under > Linux is nothing but trouble! > > My experience is the same. I've found it to be Linux specific. That's why hardware flow control, or inserting some delays is the only way to avoid overrun. Also the USB-Serial drivers add some buffering so that's another variable. Windows doesn't seem to have the problem based on most reports. I think the fix would be for Linux to read ahead in its buffers for XOFF character to see if it needs to flow-off. But I doubt the maintainer will fix. At some point it was Alan Cox. I don't think there's any way to fix this outside the kernel. -- John.
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
In article , > I thought this too, but I couldn't get sustainable transfer using > anything above 58e1e (I also tried without the parity check but it > didn't work better). > It seems the serial buffer of the M100 is too small for reliably use > xon-xoff. It's basically bufferbloat on the other side. The PC/Mac/whatev recieves an XOFF and sticks it in a large recieve buffer and goes on with blasting bytes at the M100. By the time it gets around to actually *processing* the XOFF it's already overrun the M100's buffer. :-( Faster serial transfers work best with things like old DOS term programs that don't know about 16650 FIFOs. ;-) I never had any trouble with Procomm under msdos on a 386. Minicom under Linux is nothing but trouble! Willard -- Willard Goosey goo...@sdc.org Socorro, New Mexico, USA I search my heart and find Cimmeria, land of Darkness and the Night. --Robert E. Howard
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
Mike Stein wrote: > That's something you read in many places, but as long > as you've selected XON/XOFF handshaking at both ends > there shouldn't be an issue using 19,200 baud, especially > when uploading from the M100. I thought this too, but I couldn't get sustainable transfer using anything above 58e1e (I also tried without the parity check but it didn't work better). It seems the serial buffer of the M100 is too small for reliably use xon-xoff. However you do have a very good point about uploading the data. Assuming that the Mac on the other end has a a proper xon-xoff support you should be able to go full speed in this direction (you probably don't even need xon-xoff since this would be a very slow speed by today standards, but it shouldn't hurt to use it :o)). > You'll also find it will go faster if you use TEXT to load/save > (using "COM:98N1E" as the file name) instead of TELCOM > because the M100 won't have to scroll the screen which > really slows things down. Thanks for this trick. I'll try to remember it next time I cannot use TS-DOS. Eric
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
- Original Message - From: "Eric LK" To: Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB? > If you use TELCOM, I'd recommend you keep the speed at 1200 or 2400 bauds. > While the M100 can do 19200, I had a few issues using faster speed until I > got a proper cable and started using mComm/TS-DOS. -- That's something you read in many places, but as long as you've selected XON/XOFF handshaking at both ends there shouldn't be an issue using 19,200 baud, especially when uploading from the M100. You'll also find it will go faster if you use TEXT to load/save (using "COM:98N1E" as the file name) instead of TELCOM because the M100 won't have to scroll the screen which really slows things down. Sounds like a cool project; too bad those planes don't have bar codes ;-) m
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
" I tried to use them for a pet project of mine but the 250 records/table limit made it impossible" I suggest for data entry just use TEXT. You can use tabs or commas as field separators, CRLF as record separator and then import using tab separated CSV on your desktop. Very little overhead this way, maximizing use of your T's RAM. If you want to be able to search on the Pi, you can use the special ADRS.DO or NOTE.DO and ADDRSS or SCHEDL respectively to search. If you have data to search on and you want to distinguish between fields you can use graphic characters as separators as described in the David Lien book. If you want to get really fancy you could make a BASIC program that would process the DO file and format search results on screen. -- John. On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:31 PM Eric LK wrote: > Thomas Morehouse wrote: > > Thanks gentlemen. I'd used serial cables (null modem) for transferring > > files between DOS and Windows machines before. Forgot about the 100/102 > > Telcom method. > > If you use TELCOM, I'd recommend you keep the speed at 1200 or 2400 > bauds. While the M100 can do 19200, I had a few issues using faster > speed until I got a proper cable and started using mComm/TS-DOS. > > > I'm creating a database of all the aircraft we have at the New England > Air > > Museum. > > Sounds cool. :o) > > > Much easier to use my 100, walking from plane to plane, than my Win10 > > laptop. Once created, I'll import the data into our main ResourceMate > > cataloguing system. > > Are you using Super-rom? I was puzzled by the features of Lucid and Lucid > DB. > I tried to use them for a pet project of mine but the 250 > records/table limit made it impossible :o( > > Eric >
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
Thomas Morehouse wrote: > Thanks gentlemen. I'd used serial cables (null modem) for transferring > files between DOS and Windows machines before. Forgot about the 100/102 > Telcom method. If you use TELCOM, I'd recommend you keep the speed at 1200 or 2400 bauds. While the M100 can do 19200, I had a few issues using faster speed until I got a proper cable and started using mComm/TS-DOS. > I'm creating a database of all the aircraft we have at the New England Air > Museum. Sounds cool. :o) > Much easier to use my 100, walking from plane to plane, than my Win10 > laptop. Once created, I'll import the data into our main ResourceMate > cataloguing system. Are you using Super-rom? I was puzzled by the features of Lucid and Lucid DB. I tried to use them for a pet project of mine but the 250 records/table limit made it impossible :o( Eric
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
I thought of managing my weekly shopping list on a 102 since the typing would be much easier than "hunting and pecking" with my fingers on a smartphone. Don't know if the people at the supermarket would "freak-out" seeing someone wandering around with an obvious computer with everyone carrying a much more powerful computer (in their phones) all the time, how ironic? D. Szasz On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 8:51 AM Thomas Morehouse wrote: > Thanks gentlemen. I'd used serial cables (null modem) for transferring > files between DOS and Windows machines before. Forgot about the 100/102 > Telcom method. > > I'm creating a database of all the aircraft we have at the New England Air > Museum. > > http://www.neam.org/shell.php?page=aircraft_collection > > Much easier to use my 100, walking from plane to plane, than my Win10 > laptop. Once created, I'll import the data into our main ResourceMate > cataloguing system. > > Tom M. > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 6:18 PM Gregory McGill > wrote: > >> mac terminal: https://www.emtec.com/zoc/ >> probably can find minicom in brew or something too >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 2:06 PM John Graf wrote: >> >>> I have one or two serial to USB cables, but I can’t find a “Terminal” >>> app like there used to be on the older Macs, complete with the comm >>> settings. I’ve found one that doesn’t work on my newer Mac OS, though it >>> apparently does on some older style machines with early OS 10 versions. >>> >>> The only Terminal app I have is the Mac OS Terminal, found in the >>> Utilities folder of teh Applications folder. It’s the one smarter people >>> than me use to manipulate the machine’s behavior through command line >>> instructions. If you mean that application, can you explain (easily for an >>> old man!) what commands lines to type to set the comm and the destination >>> for the downloaded file? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> John Ph. Graf >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:52 PM, George Michael Rimakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Your best bet is to use a serial cable to connect your PC/Mac to your >>> Model 100. Then just use the Telcom program to send the data as text over >>> the serial, and capture it on Windows/Mac. >>> >>> For Mac you can use Terminal. For Windows you may want to try Teraterm. >>> >>> Just make sure your settings are the same on both machines. >>> >>> Best, >>> George >>> >>> >>>
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
Thanks gentlemen. I'd used serial cables (null modem) for transferring files between DOS and Windows machines before. Forgot about the 100/102 Telcom method. I'm creating a database of all the aircraft we have at the New England Air Museum. http://www.neam.org/shell.php?page=aircraft_collection Much easier to use my 100, walking from plane to plane, than my Win10 laptop. Once created, I'll import the data into our main ResourceMate cataloguing system. Tom M. On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 6:18 PM Gregory McGill wrote: > mac terminal: https://www.emtec.com/zoc/ > probably can find minicom in brew or something too > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 2:06 PM John Graf wrote: > >> I have one or two serial to USB cables, but I can’t find a “Terminal” app >> like there used to be on the older Macs, complete with the comm settings. >> I’ve found one that doesn’t work on my newer Mac OS, though it apparently >> does on some older style machines with early OS 10 versions. >> >> The only Terminal app I have is the Mac OS Terminal, found in the >> Utilities folder of teh Applications folder. It’s the one smarter people >> than me use to manipulate the machine’s behavior through command line >> instructions. If you mean that application, can you explain (easily for an >> old man!) what commands lines to type to set the comm and the destination >> for the downloaded file? >> >> Thanks. >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> John Ph. Graf >> >> >> >> On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:52 PM, George Michael Rimakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Your best bet is to use a serial cable to connect your PC/Mac to your >> Model 100. Then just use the Telcom program to send the data as text over >> the serial, and capture it on Windows/Mac. >> >> For Mac you can use Terminal. For Windows you may want to try Teraterm. >> >> Just make sure your settings are the same on both machines. >> >> Best, >> George >> >> >>
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
mac terminal: https://www.emtec.com/zoc/ probably can find minicom in brew or something too Greg On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 2:06 PM John Graf wrote: > I have one or two serial to USB cables, but I can’t find a “Terminal” app > like there used to be on the older Macs, complete with the comm settings. > I’ve found one that doesn’t work on my newer Mac OS, though it apparently > does on some older style machines with early OS 10 versions. > > The only Terminal app I have is the Mac OS Terminal, found in the > Utilities folder of teh Applications folder. It’s the one smarter people > than me use to manipulate the machine’s behavior through command line > instructions. If you mean that application, can you explain (easily for an > old man!) what commands lines to type to set the comm and the destination > for the downloaded file? > > Thanks. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > John Ph. Graf > > > > On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:52 PM, George Michael Rimakis > wrote: > > Hi, > > Your best bet is to use a serial cable to connect your PC/Mac to your > Model 100. Then just use the Telcom program to send the data as text over > the serial, and capture it on Windows/Mac. > > For Mac you can use Terminal. For Windows you may want to try Teraterm. > > Just make sure your settings are the same on both machines. > > Best, > George > > >
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
I have one or two serial to USB cables, but I can’t find a “Terminal” app like there used to be on the older Macs, complete with the comm settings. I’ve found one that doesn’t work on my newer Mac OS, though it apparently does on some older style machines with early OS 10 versions. The only Terminal app I have is the Mac OS Terminal, found in the Utilities folder of teh Applications folder. It’s the one smarter people than me use to manipulate the machine’s behavior through command line instructions. If you mean that application, can you explain (easily for an old man!) what commands lines to type to set the comm and the destination for the downloaded file? Thanks. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - John Ph. Graf > On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:52 PM, George Michael Rimakis > wrote: > > Hi, > > Your best bet is to use a serial cable to connect your PC/Mac to your Model > 100. Then just use the Telcom program to send the data as text over the > serial, and capture it on Windows/Mac. > > For Mac you can use Terminal. For Windows you may want to try Teraterm. > > Just make sure your settings are the same on both machines. > > Best, > George
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
Hi, Your best bet is to use a serial cable to connect your PC/Mac to your Model 100. Then just use the Telcom program to send the data as text over the serial, and capture it on Windows/Mac. For Mac you can use Terminal. For Windows you may want to try Teraterm. Just make sure your settings are the same on both machines. Best, George On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 4:37 PM Thomas Morehouse wrote: > Hi all. > > I'd appreciate advice on how I can get a text file from my 100 (or 102) > onto a flash drive, so I can use the file on a Windows or Mac? > > Or another way to transfer the file? > > I've got Ultimate Rom 2, and SuperRom, but have created the file (a CSV > database) using Text. > > I think I was a member of Club100 long ago. I vaguely remember doing some > PR for a "20th anniversary of the 100" event - I think. Brain isn't what > it used to be. > > Thanks. > Tom M. > Eastford CT > >
Re: [M100] 100/102 to USB?
You can use mComm or LaddieAlpha on your PC and it will act as a TPDD emulator. Since you have UR-II, you can load the ram version of TS-DOS with one function key and then transfer the file over. You will need the proper serial cable (and likely a usb to serial adapter) to make it work properly. Here is a link to mComm www.club100.org/memfiles/index.php?action=downloadfile=Setup250.EXE=Kurt%20McCullum& And one to LaddieAlpa http://bitchin100.com/files/linux/LaddieAlpha.EXE Kurt On Wed, Mar 20, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Thomas Morehouse wrote: > Hi all. > > I'd appreciate advice on how I can get a text file from my 100 (or 102) onto > a flash drive, so I can use the file on a Windows or Mac? > > Or another way to transfer the file? > > I've got Ultimate Rom 2, and SuperRom, but have created the file (a CSV > database) using Text. > > I think I was a member of Club100 long ago. I vaguely remember doing some PR > for a "20th anniversary of the 100" event - I think. Brain isn't what it used > to be. > > Thanks. > Tom M. > Eastford CT >
[M100] 100/102 to USB?
Hi all. I'd appreciate advice on how I can get a text file from my 100 (or 102) onto a flash drive, so I can use the file on a Windows or Mac? Or another way to transfer the file? I've got Ultimate Rom 2, and SuperRom, but have created the file (a CSV database) using Text. I think I was a member of Club100 long ago. I vaguely remember doing some PR for a "20th anniversary of the 100" event - I think. Brain isn't what it used to be. Thanks. Tom M. Eastford CT
