Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Mike Stein]

Thanks!


On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 11:34 AM Gregory McGill 
wrote:

> Sorry wrong link
> https://discord.gg/zauSrYSR3E is it
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2022, 8:28 AM Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes the discord is here https://discord.gg/5yNTCDG
>>
>> On Wed, May 4, 2022, 8:11 AM Mike Stein  wrote:
>>
>>> There's a Discord channel?
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Gregory McGill 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
 messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
 due to limitations on the importer
 Greg

>>>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

" some people apparently have the opinion that you shouldn't respond unless
you have a specific, substantive thing to say"

Yeah I hope that's not where we're at. There's a balance somewhere.

When someone asks a question and I don't have an answer or know where to
look for it I don't usually respond because I feel like my reply would
divert/ get in the way of the member getting their answer.

There's no real rule about it. But if people are following that
etiquette it might look like no one cares. I think the list folk are pretty
helpful and responsive. So if no one answers it's probably because no one
currently reading knows. Not a technical issue.

-- John.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Gregory McGill]

Sorry wrong link
https://discord.gg/zauSrYSR3E is it

On Wed, May 4, 2022, 8:28 AM Gregory McGill  wrote:

> Yes the discord is here https://discord.gg/5yNTCDG
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2022, 8:11 AM Mike Stein  wrote:
>
>> There's a Discord channel?
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Gregory McGill 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>>> due to limitations on the importer
>>> Greg
>>>
>>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Gregory McGill]

Yes the discord is here https://discord.gg/5yNTCDG

On Wed, May 4, 2022, 8:11 AM Mike Stein  wrote:

> There's a Discord channel?
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>> due to limitations on the importer
>> Greg
>>
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Russell Flowers]

Not speaking to your specific concern... but some people apparently have
the opinion that you shouldn't respond unless you have a specific,
substantive thing to say. I've seen people on this very list get mad & quit
over "unnecessary" traffic, messages not being snipped, etc.

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:03 PM Peter Vollan  wrote:

> I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they
> got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt
> McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to
> death if they have already seen it.
>
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 11:03, Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>> due to limitations on the importer
>> Greg
>>
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Mike Stein]

There's a Discord channel?

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Gregory McGill 
wrote:

> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
> due to limitations on the importer
> Greg
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Brian White]

I didn't see either one.

I can only say I have only tried to use mcomm for windows to test it's
bootstrapper to document how to use it and to verify what it can or can't
do (like can you supply an arbitrary payload, and if not what exactly is
built in) and I couldn't get it to work. It runs, but doesn't work.

I assume it probably used to work under earlier versions of Windows but I
couldn't get it to work by using compatibility modes or
run-as-administrator either. I didn't try actually digging out a Win7
machine because what's the point even if that does work, other than just to
document the fact? No source so I stopped worrying about it. On Windows I
use Laddie for tpdd and wrote tsend.ps1 for bootstrap.

If you mean mcomm for python, it required a little manual fixing but only a
bit. It has no bootstrapper, but otherwise worked fine, and it would be
simple to add a bootstrapper. I don't remember the details but it was
simple and I bet this wasn't what you meant anyway because I think you
would have had no problem either.

-- 
bkw

On Tue, May 3, 2022, 8:53 PM Peter Vollan  wrote:

> I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they
> got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt
> McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to
> death if they have already seen it.
>
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 11:03, Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>> due to limitations on the importer
>> Greg
>>
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 7:17 PM Daryn Hanright  wrote:

> Looks like you didn't break the list John!
>

Don't worry I'll get there

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Greg Swallow]

Through.

Sent from my iPad

> On May 3, 2022, at 6:22 AM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> 
> 
> I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.
> If this message gets through please respond.
> thanks
> Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[MikeS]

As John says, sometimes only a few people might have an answer to your question 
and they may not be reading the list at that very time.

There's an option in your list profile to see or not see your own posts; try 
turning that on if it's off.

m
  - Original Message - 
  From: Peter Vollan 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2022 2:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] is the list actually working?


  I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they 
got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt 
McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to death 
if they have already seen it. 


  On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 11:03, Gregory McGill  wrote:

A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the 
messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped due to 
limitations on the importer
Greg

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Daryl Tester]

On 4/5/22 11:18, John R. Hogerhuis wrote:


So I tried adding

Host: lists.bitchin100.com 
Type: TXT
Value: v=spf1 mx include:netblocks.dreamhost.com  
include:relay.mailchannels.net  -all

It accepted it... but not sure if this is right / what you meant.


Not seeing it externally yet, so I checked directly with all three of
dreamhost's name servers, and I can't see it there either.

$ host -t txt lists.bitchin100.com ns1.dreamhost.com.
Using domain server:
Name: ns1.dreamhost.com.
Address: 162.159.26.14#53
Aliases:

lists.bitchin100.com has no TXT record

May be some sort of update latency (e.g. cron job)?

Cheers,
  --dt

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Gregory McGill]

it got through

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:53 PM Peter Vollan  wrote:

> I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they
> got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt
> McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to
> death if they have already seen it.
>
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 11:03, Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>> due to limitations on the importer
>> Greg
>>
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

On bitchin100.com I have one TXT record

Host: @
Type: TXT
Value: v=spf1 mx include:netblocks.dreamhost.com include:
relay.mailchannels.net -all

I have a lists type A record under bitchin100.com which is the IP address.

So I tried adding

Host: lists.bitchin100.com
Type: TXT
Value: v=spf1 mx include:netblocks.dreamhost.com include:
relay.mailchannels.net -all

It accepted it... but not sure if this is right / what you meant.

Copying you directly Daryl in case I broke the list.

-- John.





On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:32 PM Daryl Tester <
dt-m...@handcraftedcomputers.com.au> wrote:

> There's still the SPF record fix to try:
>
> > John, tl;dr - copy the SPF TXT record from bitchin100.com to
> lists.bitchin100.com.  Completely
> > unsure if this resolves Google's issue or not, but it will improve the
> SPF side of things.
>
>
> On 4/5/22 02:00, John R. Hogerhuis wrote:
> > If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.
> >
> > For what it's worth I think emails are coming through. Seems like some
> are getting delayed or bouncing for some users.
> >
> > But I haven't personally noticed any gaps in the discussions.
> >
> > -- John.
> >
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Jeff Gonzales]

yes

On Tue, May 3, 2022, 8:53 PM Peter Vollan  wrote:

> I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they
> got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt
> McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to
> death if they have already seen it.
>
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 11:03, Gregory McGill 
> wrote:
>
>> A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
>> messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
>> due to limitations on the importer
>> Greg
>>
>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Daryl Tester]

I think only one other person actually cc'd Steve in on the reply.  If he's 
having
list problems, replying only to the list *probably* isn't going to help.

--dt

On 4/5/22 07:43, Alastair Wiggins wrote:

Received loud and clear here in Australia!

Alastair Wiggins

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Daryl Tester]

There's still the SPF record fix to try:


John, tl;dr - copy the SPF TXT record from bitchin100.com to 
lists.bitchin100.com.  Completely
unsure if this resolves Google's issue or not, but it will improve the SPF side 
of things.



On 4/5/22 02:00, John R. Hogerhuis wrote:

If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.

For what it's worth I think emails are coming through. Seems like some are 
getting delayed or bouncing for some users.

But I haven't personally noticed any gaps in the discussions.

-- John.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Alastair Wiggins]

Received loud and clear here in Australia!

Alastair Wiggins

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 11:55 AM Peter Vollan  wrote:

> I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my messages just so I know they
> got through. I have posted about the weird error I am getting with Kurt
> McCullum's Mcomm twice without a peep, and I don't want to bore people to
> death if they have already seen it.
>
>>
>>

Hi Peter --

We see them. But not everyone uses MComm/Python.

You are welcome to start a separate thread.

But if you don't get replies I'd guess it is more about few people using
the Python version of Mcomm, or some other reason than any technical issue.
I would say, if you do get replies make sure to close the loop on exactly
what worked and what didn't. People get frustrated if a problem is reported
but there's no follow-through.

You might also try a different server. LaddieAlpha, DLPlus, Desklink...
lots of choices. Whatever you can get to work.

-- John.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Gregory McGill]

A good way to tell is the discord email list channel, it has 99% of the
messages except the ones that exceed 2000 characters.. those are skipped
due to limitations on the importer
Greg

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Joshua O'Keefe]

> On May 3, 2022, at 10:02 AM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
> You say "messages will look a little different from these users." 
> Can you talk more about that? Are you talking about mail service software or 
> people reading the list?

End users (us!) will see messages from the list with a From: that says 
something along the lines of "From: John R. Hogerhuis via m100 
" which will show to the end user (depending on their MUA 
/ mail reader software) as "From: John R. Hogerhuis via m100" potentially with 
or without the  bit.  Many modern clients (iOS Mail, Outlook, many of 
the webmail clients I've seen) will show just the front bit and require a click 
to reveal the second bit, which will no longer be the submitter's email address.

This will work for the majority use case: mail traffic will show up in 
subscriber's inboxes, the submitter's name will be visible (if slightly 
different), and hitting the Reply button will send a reply to the list.  The 
submitter's email address will not (as far I can tell from the docs) be 
visible, making it just a little more friction to take a discussion off-list 
since you can't copy the email address off as easily.

Happy to continue the discussion or implementation details off-list.  I'm sure 
most of us don't need to read more of my strong opinions on running mail 
infrastructure.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

You say "messages will look a little different from these users."

Can you talk more about that? Are you talking about mail service software
or people reading the list?

If you think there are any likely side effects to the suggested fixes,
pluses and minuses it would be helpful to hear them.

Btw, this is on a web host (Dreamhost) as I've mentioned. I may have access
to all of these settings, I don't know yet.

Anyway a little more discussion on this (to get input of the community) and
then we can take it off list.

This is definitely the ultimate "metadiscussion" and it may turn some
members off.

-- John.






On Tue, May 3, 2022, 9:45 AM Joshua O'Keefe 
wrote:

> > On May 3, 2022, at 9:30 AM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
> > If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.
>
> Hi John,
>
> In my own opinion the safest thing to do is to sigh and implement one of
> mailman's two header munging policies:
>
> Option A is:
> set dmarc_mitigate_action to munge_from
> set (if not already enabled, it appears to be) reply_goes_to_list
> net result: mailman will look up the submitter's DMARC record, and if
> policy=quarantine or policy=reject is set, munge the header; messages will
> look a little different if submitted by one of those users.
>
> Option B is:
> set dmarc_mitigate_action to munge_from
> set dmarc_mitigate_unconditionally
> set reply_goes_to_list
> net result: mailman will always munge From: regardless of the submitter's
> ESP policy; messages will look a little different.
>
> Option C -- leaving well enough alone -- should be on the table as well,
> for a variety of reasons.
>
> Note also that I haven't run a mailman of my own for over a decade, well
> before the publication of RFC7489.  The suggested configurations are based
> on doc reading and applying the lessons of running (non-mailman) mail
> systems at work that deliver a million messages a day.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Joshua O'Keefe]

> On May 3, 2022, at 9:30 AM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
> If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.

Hi John,

In my own opinion the safest thing to do is to sigh and implement one of 
mailman's two header munging policies:

Option A is:
set dmarc_mitigate_action to munge_from
set (if not already enabled, it appears to be) reply_goes_to_list
net result: mailman will look up the submitter's DMARC record, and if 
policy=quarantine or policy=reject is set, munge the header; messages will look 
a little different if submitted by one of those users.

Option B is:
set dmarc_mitigate_action to munge_from
set dmarc_mitigate_unconditionally
set reply_goes_to_list
net result: mailman will always munge From: regardless of the submitter's ESP 
policy; messages will look a little different.

Option C -- leaving well enough alone -- should be on the table as well, for a 
variety of reasons.

Note also that I haven't run a mailman of my own for over a decade, well before 
the publication of RFC7489.  The suggested configurations are based on doc 
reading and applying the lessons of running (non-mailman) mail systems at work 
that deliver a million messages a day.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Josh Malone]

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 12:38 PM John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
>
> If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.

On the mailman server I used to manage, I had to bite the bullet and
enable munge_from

https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC

-Josh

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[John R. Hogerhuis]

If anyone has a suggestion that I can try in Mailman I'll try it.

For what it's worth I think emails are coming through. Seems like some are
getting delayed or bouncing for some users.

But I haven't personally noticed any gaps in the discussions.

-- John.

>

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Joshua O'Keefe]

> On May 3, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Cedric Amand  wrote:
> 
> By implementing DMARC records, you know who's trying to send mail "on your 
> behalf" and I noticed that in the DMARC reports, this mailing list's server 
> was one of them.

This is true for users who control their domain and can manage mail flow as a 
result of reports .  The vast majority of users do not: they use large public 
services that are highly incentivized to use DMARC records with adkim=s and 
asps=s, breaking customary email use cases and offering end users no choice in 
the matter of the policy selected by their ESP.

This is orthogonal to SPF failure: any non-broken implementation of SPF uses 
the envelope From, which would not interfere with mailing list deliverability.  
A message may pass SPF & DKIM, only to be rejected by DMARC because DMARC pins 
its mechanism (called "alignment" in the RFC) to the header From: 

Long story short is that the world has largely adopted strict DKIM alignment 
policies, for good or ill and as a result anyone who sends messages on behalf 
of end users has to munge the From: header or face deliverability problems and 
sender reputation degradation.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[you got me]

Zero percent degredation.


From: M100  on behalf of Lloyd Johnson 

Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2022 3:57 PM
To: m...@bitchin100.com 
Subject: Re: [M100] is the list actually working?


Received by me.



From: M100  On Behalf Of Stephen Adolph
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2022 8:23 AM
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Subject: [M100] is the list actually working?



I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.

If this message gets through please respond.

thanks

Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Lloyd Johnson]

Received by me.

 

From: M100  On Behalf Of Stephen Adolph
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2022 8:23 AM
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Subject: [M100] is the list actually working?

 

I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.

If this message gets through please respond.

thanks

Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Cedric Amand]

Exactly, Actually DMARC just let's you know what SPF records would already do 
on their own, but silently. By implementing DMARC records, you know who's 
trying to send mail "on your behalf" and I noticed that in the DMARC reports, 
this mailing list's server was one of them. In my case, SPF records limit who 
can send mail with a "from" mydomain.com And DMARC system let's me know who's 
sending such emails "without my consent" (= who's ignoring my spf records). I 
hope I'm making sense without getting too technical, but I guess there are many 
tech minded people in this list anyway. Le 2022-05-03 16:42, Joshua O'Keefe 
 a écrit : > > > > > > On May 3, 2022, at 7:09 AM, 
Cedric Amand  wrote: > > I did not investigate this much ; 
but I would look at the DMARC and « from » problems > DMARC is definitely one 
-- potentially the main -- issue here. If someone with a strict DMARC record 
submits a message to the list for broadcast, many list recipients will 
quarantine or reject the message unless the From: header is munged. > > > > 
Mailman has some potential mitigation strategies against this[1], none of which 
are great, but DMARC fundamentally broke the way email works by pinning its 
mechanism on the From: header.[2] > > > > [1] 
https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/dmarc-mitigations.html
 > > > > [2] RFC7489 §5 says, essentially: requiring trust in From: was the 
only way to make DMARC go. It doesn't actually justify doing so beyond saying 
(in §6.7) acceptance is a local decision. The RFC takes no responsibility for 
establishing a de facto status quo that is broken. >

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Joshua O'Keefe]

> On May 3, 2022, at 7:09 AM, Cedric Amand  wrote:
> I did not investigate this much ; but I would look at the DMARC and « from » 
> problems 

DMARC is definitely one -- potentially the main -- issue here.  If someone with 
a strict DMARC record submits a message to the list for broadcast, many list 
recipients will quarantine or reject the message unless the From: header is 
munged.

Mailman has some potential mitigation strategies against this[1], none of which 
are great, but DMARC fundamentally broke the way email works by pinning its 
mechanism on the From: header.[2]

[1] 
https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/dmarc-mitigations.html

[2] RFC7489 §5 says, essentially: requiring trust in From: was the only way to 
make DMARC go.  It doesn't actually justify doing so beyond saying (in §6.7) 
acceptance is a local decision.  The RFC takes no responsibility for 
establishing a de facto status quo that is broken.

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Niek van der Zwan]

Ok

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad

> Op 3 mei 2022 om 15:40 heeft Brad Grier  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> 
> Got it.
> 
>> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 7:24 AM incoming  wrote:
>> received
>> 
>> > On May 3, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
>> > 
>> > I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very 
>> > unreliable.
>> > If this message gets through please respond.
>> > thanks
>> > Steve
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -- 
> Brad Grier
> 
> 

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Cedric Amand]

There are multiple things that seem to be weird with the mailing list ; I for 
example receive DMARC complaints that your domain is sending email with a « 
from » of my domain ; which is nowadays asking for problems The « reply « field 
is also weird with multiple times the mailing list name in it I did not 
investigate this much ; but I would look at the DMARC and « from » problems 
Stephen Adolph mailto:twospru...@gmail.com)> 3 mai 2022, 
15:22:48 wrote: > > I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming 
very unreliable. > If this message gets through please respond. > > thanks > > 
Steve > >

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[~Art]

5 x 5

 

From: M100  On Behalf Of Stephen Adolph
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2022 9:23 AM
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Subject: [M100] is the list actually working?

 

I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.

If this message gets through please respond.

thanks

Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[George Goodman]

Yep. Got it. I'm using Fastmail, not Gmail.

george g.


On Tue, May 3, 2022, at 6:22 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote:
> I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.
> If this message gets through please respond.
> thanks
> Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Brad Grier]

Got it.

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 7:24 AM incoming  wrote:

> received
>
> > On May 3, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> >
> > I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very
> unreliable.
> > If this message gets through please respond.
> > thanks
> > Steve
>
>

-- 
-- 
Brad Grier

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[incoming]

received

> On May 3, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Stephen Adolph  wrote:
> 
> I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very unreliable.
> If this message gets through please respond.
> thanks
> Steve

Re: [M100] is the list actually working?

[Kim Holviala]

Yep, the list is working and at least I seem to get all of the messages 
normally (but then again I'm not using Gmail).



- kim


-- Original Message --
From: "Stephen Adolph" 
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Sent: Tue, 03 May 16:22:32
Subject: [M100] is the list actually working?

I find myself wondering if the mailing list is now becoming very 
unreliable.

If this message gets through please respond.
thanks
Steve