Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

['schoone...@btinternet.com' via Machinekit]

  
  

On 05/04/18 10:07, 'fishy' via
  Machinekit wrote:


  

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 16:41:46 UTC+1, Schooner wrote:

  
  
  It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal
  
  exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack
  of 
  detailed personalised instructions for their
  
  hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to
  contribute 
  anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that
  path.
  
  
  If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.
  
  



I am not sure if that is what was described by "tragedy of
  the commons" ?
  


I think it is, certainly it is a common trend.


  


I guess most open source projects get less than 1% of users
  actually contributing something back to the project?


I wonder if some autodoc system could be made to force
  people to contribute in order to get support from a real
  person? :lol


Unfortunately 99% of people are here to get free cnc
  software installed for zero cost, they are not interested in
  playing with software development as a hobby.
  


Yes and as someone who would not touch Microsoft or Apple with a
bargepole, it does gall somewhat.


  


As a start does machinekit have a easy access wiki system?
  (http://www.machinekit.io/community/contributing/)
  


Wiki's unfortunately are for people who commit a mind dump to a page
and then move on, leaving it orphaned and unmaintained.

Linuxcnc's documentation is full of wikis which refer to Ubuntu
Hardy and other long since deceased distros and you pretty
much need to know enough not to need the wiki in the first place, to
sort the wheat from the chaff.

  


Of course this forum may not be the best place to find
  linuxcnc help, as it is actually  here for discussion of
  machinekit, so maybe the original poster should start by
  updating the wiki
  (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BeagleBone) with all
  the information they have used and the steps they took to
  install machinekit on the beaglebone.  Then maybe some of the
  experts here could take time away from their most important
  work to review and analyse the problem?
  


If you read the wiki, it was originally largely written by Michael
Haberler, before he left Linuxcnc to found Machinekit.
It is well out of date.

It was the refusal of Linuxcnc to incorporate changes that would
allow ARM boards to run Xenomai and rt-preempt kernels so as to make
the use of an ARM board
possible, amongst many other changes, that led to the split and fork
to Machinekit.
They have since seamlessly incorporated some of the changes, as if
they had come up with them ;-) 

If someone has something to contribute and refuses to use the tools
provided because some perceived difficulty or other bias, I don't
care.

If they create a wiki and provide a link to it, we can cut and paste
the text into a proper asciidoc and incorporate it into the website.
When they move to other things, the wiki will wither and die from
lack of relevance and maintenance, but we will have a document that
could be updated as required.

There's the challenge, Word document, wiki, compilation cut and
paste from a number of forum posts (all of which can be searched
from the website anyway),
or any other format.

If it is of use we will use it.



  


  
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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

['fishy' via Machinekit]

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 16:41:46 UTC+1, Schooner wrote:
>
>
>
> It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal 
> exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of 
> detailed personalised instructions for their 
> hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute 
> anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path. 
>
> If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted. 
>
>
I am not sure if that is what was described by "tragedy of the commons" ?

I guess most open source projects get less than 1% of users actually 
contributing something back to the project?

I wonder if some autodoc system could be made to force people to contribute 
in order to get support from a real person? :lol

Unfortunately 99% of people are here to get free cnc software installed for 
zero cost, they are not interested in playing with software development as 
a hobby.

As a start does machinekit have a easy access wiki system? 
(http://www.machinekit.io/community/contributing/)

Of course this forum may not be the best place to find linuxcnc help, as it 
is actually  here for discussion of machinekit, so maybe the original 
poster should start by updating the wiki 
(http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BeagleBone) with all the 
information they have used and the steps they took to install machinekit on 
the beaglebone.  Then maybe some of the experts here could take time away 
from their most important work to review and analyse the problem?

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 07:36, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> But I know one thing, If I see a small error I'm not going to bother
> to fork a repository, edit the files and make a pull request, all the
> correct a typo.I'd bet the most users don't much understand what
> any of that is all about.  They are machinists, not software
> developers.

Try it out first time before forming this opinion. Then do it a second time to 
verify if it indeed is so hard.

If you "don't want to bother", then don't.

You don't have to be a dev to correct a typo, and if you are able to install 
Linux then creating a github account and push the "edit this page" link is easy.

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 07:36, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> Whatever the current policy is, it has resulted in the
> current state of the documents.

No. Devs not documenting first place and the general lack of manpower are the 
cause.

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 00:37, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> One thing that might help is to lower the barrier to contributors.
> Put the docs on a Wiki.

We have in fact a very low barrier. There's an "edit me" link for directly 
editing a page.

Putting docs on a wiki is not a solution. It's just another format which is 
structureless. 

And it should be maintained as well. And that is the core problem.


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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Chris Albertson]

On
> Beaglebone specifics notwithstanding, the documentation is still lacking. 
> Your explanation is the same one given by every open source project that 
> lacks documentation. No one wants to do it (some, like swift.org, are 
> excellent, but it's backed by an organization with deep pockets and it pays 
> people to work on it). But that doesn't change the fact that it's lacking.

Yes, I notice the same trend.  The open source projects that have
actual budgets and corporate funding tend to have better
documentation.

One thing that might help is to lower the barrier to contributors.
Put the docs on a Wiki.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Rick Mann]

> On Apr 4, 2018, at 08:41 , 'schoone...@btinternet.com' via Machinekit 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann  wrote:
> 
> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. 
> You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to 
> isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) 
> to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at 
> the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
> 
> The big problem to get across is that Machinekit is nothing to do with BBB.
> 
> The fact that you can get a BBB to work with Machinekit and 'X' hardware, 
> does not mean it is the desirable or optimum choice.
> 
> For the money you spent on a cape and BBB, you could buy an ex-corporate dual 
> core pentium computer and a Mesa card and have a setup which is 50 times more 
> capable
> and far easier to configure and work with.

I have my reasons for choosing a Beagelbone Black, but I will likely move to 
the Beaglebone X-15 when my system design is more refined. And I will be 
creating a board for it.

> 
> - Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than 
> anything else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does 
> that mean I can't use it on BBB?
>> Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone 
>> project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware
>> 
> 
> The documentation is legacy Linuxcnc, which was rtai kernel and parport or 
> rt-preempt kernel and hardware FPGA cards only.
> Where the docs diverge to include machinekit only areas, depends wholly upon 
> people writing them and submitting them for general usage.
> 
> It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal exceptions) 
> who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of detailed personalised 
> instructions for their
> hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute 
> anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.
> 
> If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.

I'd be happy to, when I understand enough about this to contribute something 
useful. I still barely know what's going on with MachineKit.

FWIW, I posted what I have so far, but this is NOT to the standard I would 
expect of actual docs. This is more so I don't forget what I was doing. 
https://jetforme.org/2018/04/machinekit-on-bbb/

Beaglebone specifics notwithstanding, the documentation is still lacking. Your 
explanation is the same one given by every open source project that lacks 
documentation. No one wants to do it (some, like swift.org, are excellent, but 
it's backed by an organization with deep pockets and it pays people to work on 
it). But that doesn't change the fact that it's lacking.

> 
> 
> -- 
> website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
> https://github.com/machinekit
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-- 
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com


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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

['schoone...@btinternet.com' via Machinekit]

On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann  wrote:

I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll 
still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB 
from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, 
but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly 
because I want all the right connectors on it).


The big problem to get across is that Machinekit is nothing to do with BBB.

The fact that you can get a BBB to work with Machinekit and 'X' 
hardware, does not mean it is the desirable or optimum choice.


For the money you spent on a cape and BBB, you could buy an ex-corporate 
dual core pentium computer and a Mesa card and have a setup which is 50 
times more capable

and far easier to configure and work with.


- Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything else so 
far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't use it 
on BBB?

Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone 
project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware



The documentation is legacy Linuxcnc, which was rtai kernel and parport 
or rt-preempt kernel and hardware FPGA cards only.
Where the docs diverge to include machinekit only areas, depends wholly 
upon people writing them and submitting them for general usage.


It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal 
exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of 
detailed personalised instructions for their
hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute 
anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.


If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.


--
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https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 3 Apr 2018, at 06:54, Roderick Mann  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 00:37 , Bas de Bruijn  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. 
>>> You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to 
>>> isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) 
>>> to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at 
>>> the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>>> 
>>> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up 
>>> and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, 
>>> and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces 
>>> in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken 
>>> priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that).
>> 
>> Hi Rick,
>> 
>> Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
>> here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit. 
>> http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/
> 
> So, here's just a small bit of how the documentation is lacking.
> 
> - There's no 30,000' view of how MachineKit is structured and runs. I'm 
> vaguely aware via osmosis that there are some layers, and possibility for 
> remote UI.

It's there. Legacy linuxcnc CNC stack but outdated

> - The Getting Started/Setting up machinekit on a platform really just tells 
> you how to get the software installed. Perfectly fine place to start, but 
> then says nothing more.
> 
> - So, I try the next line in the list of Getting Started links: System 
> Requirements. Well, that doesn't really help, and in fact adds confusion, 
> since I'm doing this on a Beaglebone Black, which doesn't meet the minimum 
> requirements. So I ignore that knowing people are successful with BBB.

Outdated, we're looking forward for any PR

> - Next is Stepper Quickstart, which "assumes you have done a standard install 
> from the Live CD," but the previous instructions make no mention of a Live 
> CD. Okay, ignore that, it's clearly out of date.

Indeed, Outdated, we're looking forward for any PR

>- Latency Test. I can probably ignore this because I'm on BBB.

Should work

>- Sherline & Xylotex. What? Okay, I know a Sherline is a brand of small 
> mill/lathe. I google Xylotex to see what that is. Some kind of DIY CNC? 
> Neither of these seems important to my setup, and certainly don't merit the 
> same level in the outline of Stepper Quickstart as Latency Test or Machine 
> Information.
> 
>- Machine Information. Okay, this looks like something to pay attention 
> to. But wow, is this sparse, and does it presume a lot of MachineKit-specific 
> knowledge. Good thing I know a fair bit about what it would take to implement 
> this stuff from scratch, so I can infer some of this, but I feel already like 
> some basic introductory material has been skipped.
> 
>(Note: these tables look like screen shots from a UI I have yet to 
> experience. This is the 10th time I've looked at this page, and only now do I 
> realize it's just a table showing the info I'm intended to gather. I think)
> 
>- Pinout Information: Talks about parallel port. Well, that's clearly not 
> applicable.
> 
>- Mechanical Information: Okay, I don't really care about this stuff right 
> now, I'm literally just trying to get one ClearPath stepper to work with my 
> BBB setup as a proof of concept. Back to Getting Started list.
> 
> - Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything 
> else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I 
> can't use it on BBB?

Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone 
project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware 

> Not sure. But I still don't know how to even get to this. Maybe the item 
> "Running MachineKit" I saw further down the list is helpful. Not sure why it 
> wasn't the first thing after installation.
> 
> - Mesa Configuration Wizard: Okay, I own a Tormach, so I know what "Mesa" 
> probably means, I'm gonna skip this one.
> 
> - Running Machinekit: Hey! Figured out how to run mk. Okay, I see there is a 
> pru_examples option in the configuration UI that pops up. There's no 
> information displayed with it, but let's choose it. It offers to copy it to 
> my home dir, then restarts machinekit. I see a splash screen, then it all 
> ends with some errors.
> 
> I'll write another post about those errors, but that's my initial feedback on 
> the state of the docs. I hope it helps.

Thank you for your feedback.

Documentation contains the legacy linuxcnc documentation and in some/a lot of 
cases is outdated. And yes, structure can be improved.

However there is a lot of documentation. And it's findable.

Developers always have good intentions regarding documentation but I've

Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Roderick Mann]

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 00:37 , Bas de Bruijn  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. 
>> You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to 
>> isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to 
>> experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the 
>> same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>> 
>> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and 
>> running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and 
>> there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in 
>> place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority 
>> (can't make room for the router until I finish that).
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
> here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit. 
> http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/

So, here's just a small bit of how the documentation is lacking.

- There's no 30,000' view of how MachineKit is structured and runs. I'm vaguely 
aware via osmosis that there are some layers, and possibility for remote UI.

- The Getting Started/Setting up machinekit on a platform really just tells you 
how to get the software installed. Perfectly fine place to start, but then says 
nothing more.

- So, I try the next line in the list of Getting Started links: System 
Requirements. Well, that doesn't really help, and in fact adds confusion, since 
I'm doing this on a Beaglebone Black, which doesn't meet the minimum 
requirements. So I ignore that knowing people are successful with BBB.

- Next is Stepper Quickstart, which "assumes you have done a standard install 
from the Live CD," but the previous instructions make no mention of a Live CD. 
Okay, ignore that, it's clearly out of date.

- Latency Test. I can probably ignore this because I'm on BBB.

- Sherline & Xylotex. What? Okay, I know a Sherline is a brand of small 
mill/lathe. I google Xylotex to see what that is. Some kind of DIY CNC? Neither 
of these seems important to my setup, and certainly don't merit the same level 
in the outline of Stepper Quickstart as Latency Test or Machine Information.

- Machine Information. Okay, this looks like something to pay attention to. 
But wow, is this sparse, and does it presume a lot of MachineKit-specific 
knowledge. Good thing I know a fair bit about what it would take to implement 
this stuff from scratch, so I can infer some of this, but I feel already like 
some basic introductory material has been skipped.

(Note: these tables look like screen shots from a UI I have yet to 
experience. This is the 10th time I've looked at this page, and only now do I 
realize it's just a table showing the info I'm intended to gather. I think)

- Pinout Information: Talks about parallel port. Well, that's clearly not 
applicable.

- Mechanical Information: Okay, I don't really care about this stuff right 
now, I'm literally just trying to get one ClearPath stepper to work with my BBB 
setup as a proof of concept. Back to Getting Started list.

- Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything 
else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't 
use it on BBB? Not sure. But I still don't know how to even get to this. Maybe 
the item "Running MachineKit" I saw further down the list is helpful. Not sure 
why it wasn't the first thing after installation.

- Mesa Configuration Wizard: Okay, I own a Tormach, so I know what "Mesa" 
probably means, I'm gonna skip this one.

- Running Machinekit: Hey! Figured out how to run mk. Okay, I see there is a 
pru_examples option in the configuration UI that pops up. There's no 
information displayed with it, but let's choose it. It offers to copy it to my 
home dir, then restarts machinekit. I see a splash screen, then it all ends 
with some errors.

I'll write another post about those errors, but that's my initial feedback on 
the state of the docs. I hope it helps.


> 
>> 
>> I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit seems 
>> to want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's necessary 
>> because of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be worth 
>> considering:
> 
> The PRU’s only do step generation. You basically want to have an RT kernel 
> because you want to update the commanded position and read out the current 
> position in a timely manner. RT preempt kernels are common enough not to have 
> them build yourself. The Beagleboard has RT kernels.
> 
>> .
>> 
>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 09:50 , Andrew Voelkel  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my 
>>> router machine control from Mach3 on Wind

Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Andrew Voelkel]

Hi and thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure why I need a board for isolation - my current setup doesn't 
have anything like that. I just have a ribbon cable that goes from my 
Ethernet Smooth Stepper to the Gecko motor driver. Maybe there is isolation 
in the Gecko or I don't understand something.

But the rest of your post gives me pause. I'm not looking for a research 
project - I have to get paid for that. It this is not something that is 
frequently done and therefore there is some tribal wisdom on it, I'll take 
another path. I was getting that vibe from the forum. If I run into the 
same thing with generic LinuxCNC and the Mesa ethernet, then I'll have to 
hold my nose and go with Windoze. I know that I can buy a UCCNC ethernet 
card for a little over a hundred bucks and the UCCNC software for 55 euros 
and I'll have a working system. I'm intrigued by the Linux solution and I'm 
sick of Windows, but my primary goal is to use my CNC, not to dink around 
with it.

I'd rather go with Linux, but I can't let religion get in the way of 
building (physical) things.

So thanks! Your cautionary tale is more valuable than you might think!

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-7, Rick M wrote:
>
> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. 
> You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to 
> isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) 
> to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at 
> the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it). 
>
> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up 
> and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, 
> and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces 
> in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken 
> priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that). 
>
> I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit 
> seems to want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's 
> necessary because of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be 
> worth considering: . 
>
> > On Mar 28, 2018, at 09:50 , Andrew Voelkel  > wrote: 
> > 
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch 
> my router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are 
> using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That 
> sounded attractive. 
> > 
> > (I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because 
> the x motor is mirrored.) 
> > 
> > So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that 
> much. It was pretty down in the weeds. 
> > 
> > What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and 
> the BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices 
> as far as I can tell: 
> > • Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as 
> stepper control. Ride off into the sunset. 
> > • Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard 
> LinuxCNC instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel 
> installed one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU. 
> > Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution 
> (and I save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that 
> is easiest to set up and most reliable. 
> > 
> > Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these 
> configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and 
> MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I 
> value my time so I don't want to get too experimental. 
> > 
> > Thanks for any help!! 
> > 
> > -- 
> > website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io 
> github: https://github.com/machinekit 
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Machinekit" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to machinekit+...@googlegroups.com . 
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/machinekit. 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>
> -- 
> Rick Mann 
> rm...@latencyzero.com  
>
>
>

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Andrew Voelkel]

After thinking about it, here's what I'm thinking I'll do. I'm going to 
abandon the BBB idea. It doesn't seem worth the time. I'll either end up 
with an ethernet system on Linux or an ethernet system on Windows, using a 
standard x86 CPU.

So I'm going to try running Linux on my existing CNC laptop from a bootable 
USB stick. That will enable me to try things out without zapping my Windows 
install. If that works, I'm up for getting the Mesa 7i92 and giving it a 
whirl. The cost of the Mesa is tiny compared to my time trying out 
something and having it not work, and then having to resinstall Windows.

But exactly what will I need then? Just getting an .iso and making a 
bootable USB stick and riding off into the sunset sounds great, but I'm not 
expecting anything that simple. Especially given posts I've seen on this 
forum and the necessity to have an appropriate real time kernel so I can 
run an ethernet interface.

I'm also interested in why MachineKit over LCNC. 

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR HELP!!

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Charles Steinkuehler]

On 3/29/2018 9:46 AM, Andrew Voelkel wrote:
> 
>> Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on 
>> an SD.
>> Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that 
>> step generation is done on the PRU.
>>
>> If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from 
>> the BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So 
>> only a PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.
> 
> I've been having trouble understanding this "isolation" issue, but your 
> email may have given me a clue. The PRU lines are just internal board 
> lines, not offboard I/O lines? Maybe even a level shifting problem? In any 
> case an extra board changes the landscape. More below ... 

All of the BBB digital I/O pins are only 3.3V and have fairly low
drive (typically 3 mA, it varies per pin).  If any of the signals
*EVER* exceed 3.3V (which is easy to do with EMI in a large machine)
the CPU on the BBB will be destroyed.

How much buffering and isolation you need depends on your specific
machine and environment, but it's generally worth while to use a few
inexpensive 74' series buffer ICs to protect the BBB and get
additional drive (eg: 5V @ 25 mA for a 74ACT244 which costs about $0.25).

>> Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I 
>> personally have no experience with this setup.
>>
>> You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to 
>> graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small 
>> segments. So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC 
>> (which IMO are not very expensive).
>>
> 
> People keep mentioning graphics on the BBB, but I am also having trouble 
> understanding why that is a concern. I do the CAM on my main workstation (a 
> Mac) and preview the machine paths there. So I really don't do any graphics 
> in the machine control program.

The BBB does not have (usable) 3D graphics acceleration, so the
preview window of the default Axis display is very sluggish on a BBB,
especially for complex parts (like 3D printed models).  If you're OK
with not having the preview window displayed, the BBB graphics work
fine for the rest of the UI.

> Understanding my perspective requires knowing what I'm doing now. I've got 
> an old laptop PC running Windows 10 and Mach3 with a Ethernet SmoothStepper 
> hooked up to my Gecko. I'm attracted to Linux because of the bloat and 
> constant updating in Windows. But at the end of the day I'm wanting to 
> build parts. In order to turf Mach3 I've got two choices, LinuxCNC (or 
> MachineKit) and UCCNC.
> 
> If I have to run an external PC and create an extra board to buffer the 
> PRU, then why am I using a BBB at all? Why not just run a Mesa 7i92 instead 
> for stepper control? And if I'm doing that, why am I using MachineKit 
> instead of generic LinuxCNC with a real time kernel which supports 
> ethernet? 

You wouldn't need an external PC.  If the graphics on the BBB are not
to your liking, you can use a remote interface (typically an Android
tablet).  Or you can switch from the BBB to a PC which has good
graphics and use Mesa hardware for the hard real-time signals.

> And if running ethernet is a road less travelled even with generic 
> LinuxCNC, then I have to ask myself why I'm not just buying a UCCNC 
> ethernet card for about a hundred bucks and using the UCCNC software which 
> is 55 euros, and just tolerating Windows. One thing about that setup is 
> that I know it will be up and working quickly.

There are lots of people using Ethernet with LCNC/Machinekit,
including the latest machines from Tormach (which currently use a 7i92
with a custom FPGA configuration).

> It's frustrating because I like the idea of non-bloated Linux and an 
> "embedded PC" which is part of the router and packaged that way, but I'm 
> beginning to think it isn't worth the effort. 
> 
> Given my perspective, do you have any advice?

If your machine needs Mesa hardware, I'd recommend using a standard PC
with either LCNC or Machinekit (of course we'd recommend Machinekit
here, but that choice is a whole different discussion!).

If you can get by with the BBB's limited graphics (or a remote UI on a
tablet) and buffering a few signals, the BBB is an inexpensive and
"non-bloated" solution.

-- 
Charles Steinkuehler
char...@steinkuehler.net

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Andrew Voelkel]

>
> Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on 
> an SD.
> Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that 
> step generation is done on the PRU.
>
> If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from 
> the BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So 
> only a PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.
>

I've been having trouble understanding this "isolation" issue, but your 
email may have given me a clue. The PRU lines are just internal board 
lines, not offboard I/O lines? Maybe even a level shifting problem? In any 
case an extra board changes the landscape. More below ... 
 

> Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I 
> personally have no experience with this setup.
>
> You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to 
> graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small 
> segments. So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC 
> (which IMO are not very expensive).
>

People keep mentioning graphics on the BBB, but I am also having trouble 
understanding why that is a concern. I do the CAM on my main workstation (a 
Mac) and preview the machine paths there. So I really don't do any graphics 
in the machine control program.

Understanding my perspective requires knowing what I'm doing now. I've got 
an old laptop PC running Windows 10 and Mach3 with a Ethernet SmoothStepper 
hooked up to my Gecko. I'm attracted to Linux because of the bloat and 
constant updating in Windows. But at the end of the day I'm wanting to 
build parts. In order to turf Mach3 I've got two choices, LinuxCNC (or 
MachineKit) and UCCNC.

If I have to run an external PC and create an extra board to buffer the 
PRU, then why am I using a BBB at all? Why not just run a Mesa 7i92 instead 
for stepper control? And if I'm doing that, why am I using MachineKit 
instead of generic LinuxCNC with a real time kernel which supports 
ethernet? 

And if running ethernet is a road less travelled even with generic 
LinuxCNC, then I have to ask myself why I'm not just buying a UCCNC 
ethernet card for about a hundred bucks and using the UCCNC software which 
is 55 euros, and just tolerating Windows. One thing about that setup is 
that I know it will be up and working quickly.

It's frustrating because I like the idea of non-bloated Linux and an 
"embedded PC" which is part of the router and packaged that way, but I'm 
beginning to think it isn't worth the effort. 

Given my perspective, do you have any advice?

-- 
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https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann  wrote:
> 
> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll 
> still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the 
> BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment 
> with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time 
> (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
> 
> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and 
> running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and 
> there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in 
> place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority 
> (can't make room for the router until I finish that).

Hi Rick,

Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit. 
http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/

> 
> I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit seems 
> to want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's necessary 
> because of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be worth 
> considering:

The PRU’s only do step generation. You basically want to have an RT kernel 
because you want to update the commanded position and read out the current 
position in a timely manner. RT preempt kernels are common enough not to have 
them build yourself. The Beagleboard has RT kernels.

> .
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 09:50 , Andrew Voelkel  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my 
>> router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are 
>> using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That 
>> sounded attractive. 
>> 
>> (I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x 
>> motor is mirrored.)
>> 
>> So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that much. 
>> It was pretty down in the weeds.
>> 
>> What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the 
>> BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as 
>> far as I can tell:
>>  • Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper 
>> control. Ride off into the sunset.
>>  • Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC 
>> instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed 
>> one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.
>> Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I 
>> save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is 
>> easiest to set up and most reliable.
>> 
>> Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these 
>> configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and 
>> MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I 
>> value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.
>> 
>> Thanks for any help!!
>> 
>> -- 
>> website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
>> https://github.com/machinekit
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Machinekit" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to machinekit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rick Mann
> rm...@latencyzero.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
> https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Bas de Bruijn]

Hi Andrew,

> On 28 Mar 2018, at 18:50, Andrew Voelkel  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my 
> router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are 
> using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That 
> sounded attractive. 
> 
> (I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x 
> motor is mirrored.)
> 
> So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that much. 
> It was pretty down in the weeds.
> 
> What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the 
> BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as far 
> as I can tell:
> Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper control. 
> Ride off into the sunset.
> Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC instead of 
> MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed one way or 
> the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.
Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on an 
SD.
Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that step 
generation is done on the PRU.

If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from the 
BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So only a 
PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.

Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I personally 
have no experience with this setup.

You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to 
graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small segments. 
So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC (which IMO are 
not very expensive).

> Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I 
> save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is 
> easiest to set up and most reliable.

In that case (depending on your budget) I’d go for a PC with a mesanet card, 
like the 5i25_7i76
Or depending on your skills, do some level shifting and take care of the BBB 
pins to your drivers. Which should definitely be doable.

> 
> Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these 
> configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and 
> MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I 
> value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.
> 
> Thanks for any help!!
> 
> -- 
> website: http://www.machinekit.io  blog: 
> http://blog.machinekit.io  github: 
> https://github.com/machinekit 
> --- 
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> .
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> .

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Re: [Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Rick Mann]

I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll 
still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB 
from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, 
but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly 
because I want all the right connectors on it).

So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and 
running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and there 
are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in place to 
try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority (can't make 
room for the router until I finish that).

I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit seems to 
want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's necessary because 
of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be worth considering: 
.

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 09:50 , Andrew Voelkel  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my 
> router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are 
> using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That 
> sounded attractive. 
> 
> (I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x 
> motor is mirrored.)
> 
> So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that much. 
> It was pretty down in the weeds.
> 
> What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the 
> BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as far 
> as I can tell:
>   • Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper 
> control. Ride off into the sunset.
>   • Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC 
> instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed 
> one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.
> Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I 
> save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is 
> easiest to set up and most reliable.
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these 
> configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and 
> MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I 
> value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.
> 
> Thanks for any help!!
> 
> -- 
> website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
> https://github.com/machinekit
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Machinekit" group.
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-- 
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com


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[Machinekit] LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Andrew Voelkel]

Hi,

I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my 
router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are 
using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That 
sounded attractive. 

(I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x 
motor is mirrored.)

So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that 
much. It was pretty down in the weeds.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the 
BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as 
far as I can tell:

   1. Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper 
   control. Ride off into the sunset.
   2. Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC 
   instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed 
   one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.

Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I 
save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is 
easiest to set up and most reliable.

Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these 
configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and 
MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I 
value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.

Thanks for any help!!

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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