Re: Perl for Panther
Folks, Apple has already given us considerable information about Perl in Panther. The release of the source files which correspond to the external opensource parts of the WWDC Panther seed includes the source for the version of perl which is on that seed. See: http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/7.0b1/index.html And Edward Moy, with the permission of his bosses, made the release notes for Perl in Panther publically available. According to those notes, there will be very little change between the version used in the seed and the final version. -- Dave
Re: Perl for Panther
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edward Moy) wrote: > Yes, I'd have to agree with Rich that Apple would be hesitant about a > Panther server farm with unrestricted access. But if a reasonably > secure proposal can be made, I can try to sell it to the higher ups. Would not Darwin 7 be suitable for most of the related purposes? -- Chris Nandor [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://pudge.net/ Open Source Development Network[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://osdn.com/
Re: Perl for Panther
On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 11:41 AM, Rich Morin wrote: At 11:20 AM -0700 7/2/03, David Wheeler wrote: Might Apple consider seeding SourceForge with a copy of Panther to install on server farm? I see two problems with this idea. Neither of them is (necessarily) a show stopper, but they must be addressed: * Having a copy on a server farm will only provide GUI-based access (e.g., to CB and Xcode) to folks that have physical access. How useful would this be? * Apple may be nervous about allowing large-scale access to the seed release (after all, if they wanted to make it freely available for download, they certainly know how to do that :-). Can you flesh out your suggestion a bit, addressing these points? If we end up with a plausible suggestion, I know someone in Apple who may be able to do something about it. Yes, I'd have to agree with Rich that Apple would be hesitant about a Panther server farm with unrestricted access. But if a reasonably secure proposal can be made, I can try to sell it to the higher ups. Edward Moy Apple
Re: Perl for Panther
At 11:20 AM -0700 7/2/03, David Wheeler wrote: Might Apple consider seeding SourceForge with a copy of Panther to install on server farm? I see two problems with this idea. Neither of them is (necessarily) a show stopper, but they must be addressed: * Having a copy on a server farm will only provide GUI-based access (e.g., to CB and Xcode) to folks that have physical access. How useful would this be? * Apple may be nervous about allowing large-scale access to the seed release (after all, if they wanted to make it freely available for download, they certainly know how to do that :-). Can you flesh out your suggestion a bit, addressing these points? If we end up with a plausible suggestion, I know someone in Apple who may be able to do something about it. -r -- email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm- my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series
Re: Perl for Panther
>>Might Apple consider seeding SourceForge with a copy of Panther to >>install on server farm? Edward, is there someone we can send a request > >I can probably wrangle up some contacts on this too, if necessary. Er. Nevermind. I meant "contacts at SF", not at Apple. Sigh. -- Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey ) Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ Buy My Book! http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596004605/disobeycom icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Re: Perl for Panther
>Might Apple consider seeding SourceForge with a copy of Panther to >install on server farm? Edward, is there someone we can send a request I can probably wrangle up some contacts on this too, if necessary. -- Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey ) Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ Buy My Book! http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596004605/disobeycom icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Re: Perl for Panther
On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 11:05 AM, Rich Morin wrote: I realize that this is not a perfect solution, but it seems to fit our needs and capabilities. Improvements are, of course, welcome. Might Apple consider seeding SourceForge with a copy of Panther to install on server farm? Edward, is there someone we can send a request to about this? Regards, David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm]
Re: Perl for Panther
David R. Morrison wrote: Of course, it's not just perl modules which will break during the upgrade. The goal (IMNSHO) is to update and test any affected code during the next several months, so that the official Panther release can be accompanied by a suite of compatible code. The unusual difficulty with this goal is that * only some of us will have access to the Panther seed release * the Panther seed release may differ from the official Panther release I don't see any "silver bullet" for these problems, but I can suggest a few resources we can develop: * a formal description of the (predicted, relevant) changes in the official Panther release * sets of upgrade notes (or better, upgrade scripts) that will let a non-seeded developer approximate the predicted configuration * build and regression test suites for Panther-specific changes * a table of volunteers, indicating their interests, seed status, and relevant skills Using these resources, we should be able to get past the "access" problem. If the build and regression test suites are available, we may be able to get someone within Apple to run them against internal versions of Panther, reporting any problems that arise. I realize that this is not a perfect solution, but it seems to fit our needs and capabilities. Improvements are, of course, welcome. -r P.S. I know of two Perlies in Apple and two seeded outsiders, but I'm sure that more can be found, with a little effort... -- email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm- my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series
Re: Perl for Panther
>Of course, it's not just perl modules which will break during the upgrade. >Anything which has linked to /System/Library/Perl/darwin/CORE/libperl.dylib >will break. This includes eperl and irssi. And my AmphetaDesk ;) ... -- Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey ) Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ Buy My Book! http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596004605/disobeycom icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Re: Perl for Panther
Of course, it's not just perl modules which will break during the upgrade. Anything which has linked to /System/Library/Perl/darwin/CORE/libperl.dylib will break. This includes eperl and irssi. -- Dave
Re: Perl for Panther
On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 03:24:34PM -0700, David Wheeler wrote: > On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 03:19 PM, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote: > > >>This is great news, Edward, thank you! I just hope that 5.8.1 is > >>finalized and makes it in before 10.3 is finalized. I'd rather see an > > > >You think I don't? :-) > > Heh, 'course not! I don't suppose you know yet just when 5.8.1 will be > ready? No. Have you ever juggled seven balls, an oiled sumo wrestler, a turned-on chainsaw, and an electric eel? -- Jarkko Hietaniemi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ "There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." -- Jack Cohen
Re: Perl for Panther
> This is great news, Edward, thank you! I just hope that 5.8.1 is > finalized and makes it in before 10.3 is finalized. I'd rather see an You think I don't? :-) > official stable Perl release than a pre-release included with Panther. -- Jarkko Hietaniemi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ "There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." -- Jack Cohen
Re: Perl for Panther
On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote: Heh, 'course not! I don't suppose you know yet just when 5.8.1 will be ready? No. Have you ever juggled seven balls, an oiled sumo wrestler, a turned-on chainsaw, and an electric eel? Just last week! You have to keep the eel away from the chainsaw. ;-) Thanks anyway, and for humoring my FAQ! Regards, David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm]
Re: Perl for Panther
On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 03:19 PM, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote: This is great news, Edward, thank you! I just hope that 5.8.1 is finalized and makes it in before 10.3 is finalized. I'd rather see an You think I don't? :-) Heh, 'course not! I don't suppose you know yet just when 5.8.1 will be ready? Thanks! David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm]
Re: Perl for Panther
On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 11:43 AM, Edward Moy wrote: Thanks, Rich. I got so busy at the Apple WorldWide Developers Conference, and then behind in my regular work that I just never got around to sending this out. We wanted to share this information about Perl and the future 10.3 (Panther) release of Mac OS X, so users and developers would not be taken by surprise about the incompatibility issues that they are likely to see. We hope the new features and capabilities of the new Perl will outweigh the temporary difficulties that will occur. This is great news, Edward, thank you! I just hope that 5.8.1 is finalized and makes it in before 10.3 is finalized. I'd rather see an official stable Perl release than a pre-release included with Panther. Regards, David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394 http://kineticode.com/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kineticode. Setting knowledge in motion.[sm]
Re: Perl for Panther
Thanks, Rich. I got so busy at the Apple WorldWide Developers Conference, and then behind in my regular work that I just never got around to sending this out. We wanted to share this information about Perl and the future 10.3 (Panther) release of Mac OS X, so users and developers would not be taken by surprise about the incompatibility issues that they are likely to see. We hope the new features and capabilities of the new Perl will outweigh the temporary difficulties that will occur. Edward Moy Apple On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 10:04 AM, Rich Morin wrote: --- Begin Forward --- Cc: Omni List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Edward Moy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Perl for Panther To: John Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.6 List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Discussions of Mac OS X List-Post: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/archive/macosx-talk/> X-Original-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:21:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:21:49 -0700 On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 5:41PM, John Adams wrote: Has anyone heard what version of Perl we should expect with Panther--5.6.0 again, 5.6.1, 5.8.0, 5.8.1 (imminent)? For the record, there is a release note included with the WWDC version of Panther, which I include here. Edward Moy Apple PATH Documentation >Release Notes Mac OS X 10.3.x Developer Release Notes: Perl 5.8.1 Release Notes Mac OS X 10.3 will ship with version 5.8.1 of Perl, which will have many new and improved features. The highlights of the 5.8 series include: * Better Unicode support * New IO Implementation * New Thread Implementation * Better Numeric Accuracy * Safe Signals * Many New Modules However, for Perl extensions (XS modules), the 5.8 series is not binary-compatible with earlier releases on Perl, including the 5.6 version that shipped on previous releases of Mac OS X. This means that developers will have to recompile their Perl extensions to use them in Mac OS X 10.3. With the 5.8.1 version, the standard distribution of Perl for Mac OS X makes the following changes: * Versioning - the Perl release will be installed in a 5.8.1 sub-directory of /System/Library/Perl and /Library/Perl . This allows multiple versions of Perl to be run on a user's system without conflict. * Two-level namespace support - Perl extensions will be compiled automatically with two-level namespace support, greatly alleviating the problem of duplicate symbols. * The Mac OS X version of Perl will also have the new ithreads support turned on, so Perl programs can be multithreaded. These changes in 5.8.1 will make it binary incompatible with not only previous versions of Perl, but even with the same version not built with this same set of features. For example, the ithread support alone changes the internal workings of Perl so that extensions are incompatible. To ameliorate these binary incompatibilities, the 5.8 series implements different names for the architecture-dependent directory depending on the compiled features. So instead of the familiar darwin directory, the new architecture-dependent directory for the Mac OS X release will be darwin-thread-multi-2level . The breaking of binary compatibility for 5.8.1 was unavoidable, but once made, Apple does not intend to change this any further in the 10.3 timeframe. Developers with prerelease versions of 10.3 may begin to recompile their extensions with assurance that the binary compatibility will not change when 10.3 is shipped. One final word about compatibility. The two-level namespace support uses a feature only available in 10.3. That means Perl extensions built under 10.3 can never be made to run under previous versions of Mac OS X. Perl extensions that need to run under both 10.3 and previous releases will need to have separate versions. Copyright © 2003 Apple Computer, Inc. --- End Forward --- -- email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm- my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series
Fwd: Re: Perl for Panther
--- Begin Forward --- Cc: Omni List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Edward Moy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Perl for Panther To: John Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.6 List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Discussions of Mac OS X List-Post: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/archive/macosx-talk/> X-Original-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:21:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:21:49 -0700 On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 5:41PM, John Adams wrote: Has anyone heard what version of Perl we should expect with Panther--5.6.0 again, 5.6.1, 5.8.0, 5.8.1 (imminent)? For the record, there is a release note included with the WWDC version of Panther, which I include here. Edward Moy Apple PATH Documentation >Release Notes Mac OS X 10.3.x Developer Release Notes: Perl 5.8.1 Release Notes Mac OS X 10.3 will ship with version 5.8.1 of Perl, which will have many new and improved features. The highlights of the 5.8 series include: * Better Unicode support * New IO Implementation * New Thread Implementation * Better Numeric Accuracy * Safe Signals * Many New Modules However, for Perl extensions (XS modules), the 5.8 series is not binary-compatible with earlier releases on Perl, including the 5.6 version that shipped on previous releases of Mac OS X. This means that developers will have to recompile their Perl extensions to use them in Mac OS X 10.3. With the 5.8.1 version, the standard distribution of Perl for Mac OS X makes the following changes: * Versioning - the Perl release will be installed in a 5.8.1 sub-directory of /System/Library/Perl and /Library/Perl . This allows multiple versions of Perl to be run on a user's system without conflict. * Two-level namespace support - Perl extensions will be compiled automatically with two-level namespace support, greatly alleviating the problem of duplicate symbols. * The Mac OS X version of Perl will also have the new ithreads support turned on, so Perl programs can be multithreaded. These changes in 5.8.1 will make it binary incompatible with not only previous versions of Perl, but even with the same version not built with this same set of features. For example, the ithread support alone changes the internal workings of Perl so that extensions are incompatible. To ameliorate these binary incompatibilities, the 5.8 series implements different names for the architecture-dependent directory depending on the compiled features. So instead of the familiar darwin directory, the new architecture-dependent directory for the Mac OS X release will be darwin-thread-multi-2level . The breaking of binary compatibility for 5.8.1 was unavoidable, but once made, Apple does not intend to change this any further in the 10.3 timeframe. Developers with prerelease versions of 10.3 may begin to recompile their extensions with assurance that the binary compatibility will not change when 10.3 is shipped. One final word about compatibility. The two-level namespace support uses a feature only available in 10.3. That means Perl extensions built under 10.3 can never be made to run under previous versions of Mac OS X. Perl extensions that need to run under both 10.3 and previous releases will need to have separate versions. Copyright © 2003 Apple Computer, Inc. --- End Forward --- -- email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm- my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series
