Re: Additional help needed with Reading line by line
Hi, It's only a chance thing. It's very, very unstable to use the arrow keys only. As those who can make it work will probably agree with. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:34 AM, carlene knight wrote: Hi: vo/left and right arrows will though. You might have to interact with HtML though. I have my Mac set so that the tab key will automatically interact. HOpe that helps. On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:29 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Nic, DOM mode doesn't allow me to do anything when just using the arrow keys except when Quick Nav is on, and in that case, the up and down arrows perform the action selected using the rotor (links, headers, etc.). I suppose if there's a table it's possible to move up and down. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: question about home, end, page up page down
Hi, Well, we figured out why. Vo doesn't track it. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:29 AM, carlene knight wrote: Neither can I. They do nothing. On Feb 5, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, Yeah, for some apparently it works great. I can't get Home and End to work on their own. But the manual said. :( Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Pete Nalda wrote: Ok. I'm sitting here playing while reading this. Here goes. Function Left= Home (top of document), Function Right arrow=End (end of document), Function Up is Page up, and Function down is page down. this is on the 2009 MBP 13. On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, Saying that, home and end are used to go to the beginning and end of documents. Of course, I can't get that to work myself, but oh well. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 5, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, They actually don't do anything unless you use them with another combination, or so I've found. Try turning on keyboard help. They're the right keys. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 5, 2010, at 7:44 PM, Carolyn wrote: Chris: It should, but it simply doesn't do anything. Boy do I feel dumb! Carolyn - Original Message - From: Chris Blouch To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: question about home, end, page up page down Function (which is the bottom-left most key on the whole keyboard layout) and the arrow keys makes up/down into PageUp and PageDown while left becomes Home and right becomes End. Hope that helps. CB Carolyn wrote: Hi Listers: I'm in a quandry. I have a MacBook Pro, and I'm having difficulty locating page up, page down, end and home. I was told they are functionkey plus the arrows, but they don't respond when I try to use them that way. Any clarification would be much appreciated. Alternatively, anyone living neaar Denver Co who might be interested in bringing a very slow rooky along with some tutoring should write me off list. TIA for anything. Carolyn CH:) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com
Using styles in pages 09 with Voice over
Hi everyone, I am having a small problem with Pages O9. I am unable to use different styles wwith Voice Over. Every time I select a new style, the style returns to normal whenever I navigate back to the body text area. Does anyone have any tips on how to control styles using VO in Pages 09 please? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: weird pdf document.
The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
On 2010-02-11, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO- cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. * I would agree that having used JAWS and a variety of browsers for Windows for years that my first transition to a Mac left the web- browsing experience wanting. While I was using Leopard I used Safari about 1% of the time and Firefox under Windows 99% of the time. Since upgrading to Snow Leopard the balance is more like Safari 30% Firefox 70%. Definitely some much appreciated improvements. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. * I completely agree with this point. The problem, isn't Safari, or any other browser. The problem is the paradigm shift that users, myself included, need to make between browsing a page in a virtual buffer / viewer, and browsing the web through interacting with the objects that make up the page. HTH, Everett -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I would love to help, but I am only just getting into programming. BTW, I tried to get in touch with Will Walker to pass on how sorry I was regarding his job loss and to find out what the current state of Orca was on Linux. This is indeed very disturbing and more than a little annoying. Just in case anyone else is trying to get hold of him at his Sun address, it no longer exists. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:53, Chris Hofstader wrote: With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I'm assuming you mean is it possible to highlight text on the web using shift and the arrows with voiceover off? I have no idea lol. I assume sighted people would just use the mouse to highlight selections. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:19 AM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
No, shift plus arrows does nothing for sighted users. Of course, they cannot use the rotor, item chooser or lots of things that VoiceOver provides for us blinks. The web browsing experience is very different for people with vision impairment than sighted users so trying to come up with some kind of keystroke parity is a very bad idea. We need keystrokes added to handle a boatload of things that sighties get either by diverting their gaze (a 5 millisecond process) or by pointing and shooting with the mouse which, for us, is shooting in the dark. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:19 AM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I'm in touch with both Willy and Mike and I'll pass on your regards. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, James Nash wrote: I would love to help, but I am only just getting into programming. BTW, I tried to get in touch with Will Walker to pass on how sorry I was regarding his job loss and to find out what the current state of Orca was on Linux. This is indeed very disturbing and more than a little annoying. Just in case anyone else is trying to get hold of him at his Sun address, it no longer exists. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:53, Chris Hofstader wrote: With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hello James, Sighted users of Safari usually have to click and drag to highlight text on a web page. However, if you want to highlight some text and shift plus arrows won't work with VO, try navigating to the item to the left of the text, routing the mouse to it, then double-clicking with the physical mouse (VO-Shift-Space Bar doesn't work), that will then let you use Option-Shift-Right arrow to highlight the text word by word. You can also route the mouse to a paragraph then triple-click to highlight the whole paragraph, then Command-Shift-Right Arrow will highlight each subsequent paragraph and add it to the selection. VO-F6 will read back what you have selected. Cheers, Anne On Feb 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:19 AM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? I have some vision and did try the above with zoom on. It won't do it with all text, I think it only does it on text that is not a header, and also you do have to double click a word first, then after that select more with shift arrow. Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi, CDH. It is very good to see you here. As usual, one of your messages has gotten me to think. You say: Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I agree with the fact that contextual information is usually left out in what I might describe, after Jaws, Wineyes, and SA, as the standard method of browsing on Windows. However, I'm a bit confused as to why this matters. Maybe I'm missing the glaringly obvious, but why would the contextual information interest me on most web pages? By contextual information, I assume you mean the placement of information on the page in relation to other aspects of the page. Maybe this is really vital to sighted users, and maybe I'd love it if I had it, but as it stands, I would put access to contextual information rather low on the list of priorities. The whole point of any web page, at least for me, is to use the information on that page, and any services the page offers, easily and quickly. I can see certain pages where the information is important, but for the vast majority of pages, where things are put, what they look like, etc, doesn't fill me with curiosity. How does contextual information, for a blind user, aid in this? Feel free to point me to an article explaining this if there is one. Thanks. Aman On 2/11/10, Chris Hofstader c...@hofstader.com wrote: I'm in touch with both Willy and Mike and I'll pass on your regards. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, James Nash wrote: I would love to help, but I am only just getting into programming. BTW, I tried to get in touch with Will Walker to pass on how sorry I was regarding his job loss and to find out what the current state of Orca was on Linux. This is indeed very disturbing and more than a little annoying. Just in case anyone else is trying to get hold of him at his Sun address, it no longer exists. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:53, Chris Hofstader wrote: With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to
RE: Status and Spotlight Menus
Thanks as well. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of carlene knight Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:37 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Status and Spotlight Menus Hi there: In addition to what Esther so wisely suggested, while in Spotlight, if you think you might not want the top hit generated by your search, you can use down arrow to see the top hits and press enter on the correct one. On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Linda Adams wrote: muchas gracias -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Esther Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:30 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Status and Spotlight Menus Hi Linda, The quick answer is that in order to get to these menus you need to press VO-M twice (for the Status menu) or three times (for the Spotlight menu). Alternatively, you can use the Mac OS X shortcuts for each of these options in place of the VoiceOver shortcuts: Apple menu and application menu items: press VO-M or press Control-F2 Status menu: press VO-M twice or press Control-F8 Spotlight menu: press VO-M three times or press Command-space As an example of using Spotlight to navigate to an application and launch it, you can press Command-Space, then type in the name of an application and press return to go to that file. Since it is an application file, the default open action is to launch it. If it were a text file, it would open up in TextEdit or Pages. A PDF file would open in Preview, etc. HTH Cheers, Esther Linda Adams wrote: I'm working through the Getting Started Guide, trying to find my way around my Mac Book. I have been looking at the menus and what is in them like the Apple menu and system preferences. the Guide says that the menu bar has a Status menu and Spotlight menu at the end and also says the Spotlight menu is very helpful for VO users to search for a file or other items. I pressed VO M from the Dock and also from the Finder window but neither has the Status or Spotlight in the menu. Can someone shed a little light on this for me? I'm interested in seeing how the Spotlight works. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2673 - Release Date: 02/07/10 07:22:00 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2679 - Release Date: 02/10/10 19:38:00 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi Anne, Thanks for this. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 14:46, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello James, Sighted users of Safari usually have to click and drag to highlight text on a web page. However, if you want to highlight some text and shift plus arrows won't work with VO, try navigating to the item to the left of the text, routing the mouse to it, then double-clicking with the physical mouse (VO-Shift-Space Bar doesn't work), that will then let you use Option-Shift-Right arrow to highlight the text word by word. You can also route the mouse to a paragraph then triple-click to highlight the whole paragraph, then Command-Shift-Right Arrow will highlight each subsequent paragraph and add it to the selection. VO-F6 will read back what you have selected. Cheers, Anne On Feb 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working
Skim, Preview, and Adobe Reader for PDF Viewing [was Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.]
Hi, To follow up on James' reply, there's Skim that is free and open source, with some nice annotation options, that is available from SourceForge: http://skim-app.sourceforge.net/ There's also Adobe Reader, also freeware, which has a recent new version release according to the Apple Downloads page: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/adobereader.html Primarily of interest for Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4) users, there's Travis Siegel's Softcon PDF Viewer, which modified the earlier version of Preview to allow continuous reading under Tiger when using VO-A instead of having to press a key at the end of each page: http://www.softcon.com/mac/ Skim came up in a recent list discussion where Dónal originally asked about being able to show PDF presentations that he had prepared with LaTeX (and a style package called Beamer) using Preview in Full Screen mode on a laptop. (This was a decision point in whether to buy a new MacBook Pro or to use an old Windows laptop.) The discussion had moved on to another thread on Keynote's accessibility for preparing presentations when I commented that if he simply used Skim instead of Preview, he could use Skim's presentation view mode (Command-Option-P) to directly display his large set of existing PDF presentations, along with any presentations he produced in either PowerPoint or Keynote that were written out as PDFs (as some meetings request, so there are no problems when the presentation files are displayed across platforms due to differences in available fonts between Windows and Macs). Further, there are presentation options to automatically play through the presentations in timed mode, or with selected transition effects etc. For all other purposes, Skim would basically work just like Preview, only with additional options. Note that the reason for this suggestion was primarily for presentation display, not PDF reading, although that's not how most list users would use Skim. I did follow up with a post on how Skim works, compared to Preview, which you can read in the archived post: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries%40googlegroups.com/msg15820.html Again, note that this post quotes a much earlier post made on another list, that wasn't primarily designed to answer the question about how to use Skim and its annotation features, but which addressed the issue of whether it was possible to get better results when using the Find operation in viewing PDFs (under Leopard). As for Adobe Reader, it uses text-to-speech instead of VoiceOver to read PDF files. I find its configuration unintuitive, so I usually have to read my notes on how this works in order to use it. For example, the speaking rate isn't set by your text-to-speech rate setting -- it's entirely ignored, and has to be set separately within Adobe Reader, along with the voice selection. In order to save you from reading through all the myriad menus (unless the Windows version is just like this, and you're already familiar with the structure), I'm pointing you to my archived list post that describes how to use Adobe Reader: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries%40googlegroups.com/msg08026.html I really don't use this very often -- Preview and Skim are much nicer to use -- and I haven't tried the latest version, so there may be some differences or new options. OT for this thread: you asked elsewhere about full-featured, free word processing options under Snow Leopard. I assume you don't use LaTeX, since that was also available to you under Leopard, through TeXShop. For most people, the steep initial learning curve won't make this a worthwhile alternative, but if you already use this as part of a linux or unix distribution, or have other colleagues in computer science who regularly use LaTeX, this could be an option. Second OT point: I posted a few days before you rejoined the list about O'Reilly's eBook bundles and the eBook Deal of the Day RSS feed they just started, where nearly every day a DRM-free eBook bundle is offered for $9.99. I recall that you've purchased online O'Reilly books before. The bundles are multiple DRM-free formats, so you can read PDF in Preview and ePub on a mobile device or through a web interface such as O'Reilly's Bookworm. This may be of interest since the iPad and iBookStore is supposed to use the ePub format. For more details, see O'Reilly's eBook site: http://oreilly.com/ebooks/ For the eBook Deal of the Day feed, check out: feed://feeds.feedburner.com/oreilly/ebookdealoftheday HTH Cheers, Esther James Nash wrote: Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org On 11 Feb 2010, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I beg to differ with the below, shift + arrows does work to highlight text after you selected one word. The text can not be a header though for some reason, at least that how it worked on Apple's Ipod touch site when I tried it. On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:32 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: No, shift plus arrows does nothing for sighted users. Of course, they cannot use the rotor, item chooser or lots of things that VoiceOver provides for us blinks. The web browsing experience is very different for people with vision impairment than sighted users so trying to come up with some kind of keystroke parity is a very bad idea. We need keystrokes added to handle a boatload of things that sighties get either by diverting their gaze (a 5 millisecond process) or by pointing and shooting with the mouse which, for us, is shooting in the dark. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:19 AM, James Nash wrote: Hi, Can sighted users use just the arrow keys with the shift keys to highlight text? Thanks TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 13:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no problem. There is lots of information on how to accomplish both tasks and perhaps a little research on your part will help. I'll give you a tip. If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy. You coming from windows and using IE may find DOM mode more like your browsing experience under windows using a windows-based screen reader. If your using Groups mode, you are going to find the navigation of the page not to be linear as is provided by DOM mode. Groups mode gives a more accurate representation of how the page is laid out unlike DOM mode. Once you have used Safari a while, I think you will find it will meet your needs just fine. I am not so sure that even if Firefox is made accessible, you will find the browsing experience significantly different. I think what you will find is some differences in browsing experience as far as how some sites behave, but assuming Mozilla leverages the accessibility hooks of VO, the navigation will likely be quite similar. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:59 AM, Lynn Schneider wrote: Oh I would so love to have an alternative to Safari! I'm a fairly recent switcher and I don't miss Windows at all except that I totally and absolutely miss the great accessibility I had with IE. I hate the fact that I can't read line by line or copy web page text to the clipboard and he disturbing thing with VO and Safari is that I find that whole parts of pages are not read at all. I think Safari is the app I most dislike on the Mac. Everything else about the Mac is wonderful. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
HI: I still use the good old item chooser. I can still hit vo/i and type the word of interest, then use the arrow keys to view the hits. I then use vo/a to read the contents. I really don't like the web item rotor. Vo/h takes you to headings, and my tab key seems to go through the links. I'll play with it some more, but sometimes the old way is best for me. :) The auto web spots can be handy though, but sometimes it's hard for me to choose them. Just my thoughts. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi Chris, Yup. I use Safari way more than I do I.E. now a days. I honestly couldn't stand the internet on my Mac with Leopard. But once Snow Leopard came out at the end of August, it changed the game for me. The rotor function along with the web spots really help things to move a long for me as far as navigating the web. Even the navigation with the arrows... when it decides to work) has made Safari on the Mac with voiceover a more enjoyable experience. It all depends on the situation too. I like using the internet on my Mac when working with sighted people. it is just a more seamless transition in my opinion especially if one has a track pad. But if I just want to gobble up a large chunk of info really quick I still think jaws and windows has an advantage. . On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use
Re: Download manager that works well with VO
Can't you just use the download manager in Safari? Best regards Søren Jensen Mail MSN: s...@coolfortheblind.dk Website: http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/ Den Feb 11, 2010 kl. 1:12 AM skrev Kimberly thurman: Hello Folks: Is there a download manager such as free download manager for the PC that works well with Mac and voiceover? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: where do widgets go
Mouse click on the Info image, and then put in a new zip code and click Done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
RE: where do widgets go
Awesome! I'm sure Cupertino is a nice place, but I got tired of looking at their weather. Actually, I was jealous as their weather was much nicer than ours. LOL -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Baxter Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:35 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: where do widgets go Mouse click on the Info image, and then put in a new zip code and click Done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
RE: Download manager that works well with VO
I was looking for something that would restart stopped downloads automatically. I downloaded Flox, and, so far, it is fairly accessible. There are some unlabeled buttons, which I am still experimenting with. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Søren Jensen Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:52 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Download manager that works well with VO Can't you just use the download manager in Safari? Best regards Søren Jensen Mail MSN: s...@coolfortheblind.dk Website: http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/ Den Feb 11, 2010 kl. 1:12 AM skrev Kimberly thurman: Hello Folks: Is there a download manager such as free download manager for the PC that works well with Mac and voiceover? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: where do widgets go
Hi, Speaking of widgets, can anyone get the currency converter to work? I can get it to change currencies, but I can't see the result. Might be me just missing something. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:00 PM, Kim Thurman wrote: Awesome! I'm sure Cupertino is a nice place, but I got tired of looking at their weather. Actually, I was jealous as their weather was much nicer than ours. LOL -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Baxter Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:35 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: where do widgets go Mouse click on the Info image, and then put in a new zip code and click Done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: where do widgets go
Hi again, Well, never mind. There is just an item that doesn't read as actually being an item before you try clicking on it, and a popup to choose a currency to convert to will then show up with an edit field next to it, showing the result. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, Speaking of widgets, can anyone get the currency converter to work? I can get it to change currencies, but I can't see the result. Might be me just missing something. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:00 PM, Kim Thurman wrote: Awesome! I'm sure Cupertino is a nice place, but I got tired of looking at their weather. Actually, I was jealous as their weather was much nicer than ours. LOL -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Baxter Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:35 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: where do widgets go Mouse click on the Info image, and then put in a new zip code and click Done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I've got to admit that I really miss the hot keys in JAWS such as c to jump to combo boxes, b for buttons, h for headers, and the like. I also miss the way it handles radio buttons. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi Chris, Yup. I use Safari way more than I do I.E. now a days. I honestly couldn't stand the internet on my Mac with Leopard. But once Snow Leopard came out at the end of August, it changed the game for me. The rotor function along with the web spots really help things to move a long for me as far as navigating the web. Even the navigation with the arrows... when it decides to work) has made Safari on the Mac with voiceover a more enjoyable experience. It all depends on the situation too. I like using the internet on my Mac when working with sighted people. it is just a more seamless transition in my opinion especially if one has a track pad. But if I just want to gobble up a large chunk of info really quick I still think jaws and windows has an advantage. . On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although like any browser and screen reader, Safari and VO has issues, but certainly not to the degree you seem to be having. Reading line by line is no problem at all and copying information to the clipboard is again, no
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Ok, and we need to know all of this for what reason? Carolyn - Original Message - From: Chris Hofstader To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:53 AM Subject: Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hello. You can hit control+option+command+h to jump forward through the headings and control+option+shift+command+h to go backward through the headings. You can also hit control+option+command+j to jump to the next element on a web page. On Feb 11, 2010, at 2:20 PM, carlene knight wrote: I've got to admit that I really miss the hot keys in JAWS such as c to jump to combo boxes, b for buttons, h for headers, and the like. I also miss the way it handles radio buttons. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi Chris, Yup. I use Safari way more than I do I.E. now a days. I honestly couldn't stand the internet on my Mac with Leopard. But once Snow Leopard came out at the end of August, it changed the game for me. The rotor function along with the web spots really help things to move a long for me as far as navigating the web. Even the navigation with the arrows... when it decides to work) has made Safari on the Mac with voiceover a more enjoyable experience. It all depends on the situation too. I like using the internet on my Mac when working with sighted people. it is just a more seamless transition in my opinion especially if one has a track pad. But if I just want to gobble up a large chunk of info really quick I still think jaws and windows has an advantage. . On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use
brail display and voice over
Hi all, If you mute voice over by checking the mute voice over check box in the voice over utilities is a braille display still usable. louie louiem...@wavecable.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I've written a whole lot about the importance of context in the blog and elsewhere. I'm really tired this afternoon so I'll get back to you with something coherent tomorrow. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Aman Singer wrote: Hi, CDH. It is very good to see you here. As usual, one of your messages has gotten me to think. You say: Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I agree with the fact that contextual information is usually left out in what I might describe, after Jaws, Wineyes, and SA, as the standard method of browsing on Windows. However, I'm a bit confused as to why this matters. Maybe I'm missing the glaringly obvious, but why would the contextual information interest me on most web pages? By contextual information, I assume you mean the placement of information on the page in relation to other aspects of the page. Maybe this is really vital to sighted users, and maybe I'd love it if I had it, but as it stands, I would put access to contextual information rather low on the list of priorities. The whole point of any web page, at least for me, is to use the information on that page, and any services the page offers, easily and quickly. I can see certain pages where the information is important, but for the vast majority of pages, where things are put, what they look like, etc, doesn't fill me with curiosity. How does contextual information, for a blind user, aid in this? Feel free to point me to an article explaining this if there is one. Thanks. Aman On 2/11/10, Chris Hofstader c...@hofstader.com wrote: I'm in touch with both Willy and Mike and I'll pass on your regards. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, James Nash wrote: I would love to help, but I am only just getting into programming. BTW, I tried to get in touch with Will Walker to pass on how sorry I was regarding his job loss and to find out what the current state of Orca was on Linux. This is indeed very disturbing and more than a little annoying. Just in case anyone else is trying to get hold of him at his Sun address, it no longer exists. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:53, Chris Hofstader wrote: With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
The arrow keys in conjunction with the rotor provide similar functionality but with the luxury of selecting a specific one from the rotor dialogue itself. On Feb 11, 2010, at 2:20 PM, carlene knight wrote: I've got to admit that I really miss the hot keys in JAWS such as c to jump to combo boxes, b for buttons, h for headers, and the like. I also miss the way it handles radio buttons. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi Chris, Yup. I use Safari way more than I do I.E. now a days. I honestly couldn't stand the internet on my Mac with Leopard. But once Snow Leopard came out at the end of August, it changed the game for me. The rotor function along with the web spots really help things to move a long for me as far as navigating the web. Even the navigation with the arrows... when it decides to work) has made Safari on the Mac with voiceover a more enjoyable experience. It all depends on the situation too. I like using the internet on my Mac when working with sighted people. it is just a more seamless transition in my opinion especially if one has a track pad. But if I just want to gobble up a large chunk of info really quick I still think jaws and windows has an advantage. . On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think you need to take some additional time to learn how best to use Safari with VOiceOver. I've been using the Mac for five years now and although
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Because the question of why Firefox sucks on Macintosh needs a complicated response as it is a complicated problem. On Feb 11, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Carolyn wrote: Ok, and we need to know all of this for what reason? Carolyn - Original Message - From: Chris Hofstader To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:53 AM Subject: Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard. Safari currently is weak. CB E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, This morning I posted a new blog article on my site: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard, which can be accessed at http://tinyurl.com/ygkfqoj Thanks,Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? Try pressing page down. That should move you to the next page. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny James: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? TIA Carolyn CH:) - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Go to: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/macbook_pro_users_guide.pdf Aloha, Charlie On Feb 11, 2010, at 10:51 AM, James Nash james.austin1...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? Try pressing page down. That should move you to the next page. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny James: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? TIA Carolyn CH:) - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to
FW: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Carlene, This was sad news for me. As a new user, I was still hoping that I would come across similar hot keys with my Mac. Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of carlene knight Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:20 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard I've got to admit that I really miss the hot keys in JAWS such as c to jump to combo boxes, b for buttons, h for headers, and the like. I also miss the way it handles radio buttons. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi Chris, Yup. I use Safari way more than I do I.E. now a days. I honestly couldn't stand the internet on my Mac with Leopard. But once Snow Leopard came out at the end of August, it changed the game for me. The rotor function along with the web spots really help things to move a long for me as far as navigating the web. Even the navigation with the arrows... when it decides to work) has made Safari on the Mac with voiceover a more enjoyable experience. It all depends on the situation too. I like using the internet on my Mac when working with sighted people. it is just a more seamless transition in my opinion especially if one has a track pad. But if I just want to gobble up a large chunk of info really quick I still think jaws and windows has an advantage. . On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: Hi, I was VP of Software Engineering at FS when we invented a lot of what is now the common user interface on Windows screen readers. I am proud of the work we did as we certainly moved the art forward. Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I use both DOM and Groups mode with Safari depending upon the site. A relatively linear site works best with DOM mode as it likes to function in a straight line. Busier sites, however, seem to prefer Groups mode as one can move from big chunk to big chunk rapidly while also learning where objects are in the layout and, by knowing what's near what, you can learn to navigate some sites really quickly and without a lot of caca in between items of value. The trackpad commander is awesome for web browsing but you need either a MacBook or MacBook Pro to enjoy this. A friend over at Serotek told me about a multi-touch trackpad that works both in Windows 7 and Snow Leopard that you can add onto other models but I haven't seen it in action. So, give Safari and the VoiceOver features a bit longer, use the rotor, the item chooser and learn the keystrokes that make web browsing easier and I think you will start to enjoy it more. Of course, JAWS introduced the original virtual buffer system for web browsing back in 1998 and has a lot of time for refinements. It is good but, especially regarding contextual information, is starting to fall behind newer and more forward looking ideas popping up around the AT world. cdh On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hello, I've been a Mac user for almost 2 years, and I personally don't find the web browsing experience on my Mac using Safari with voiceover to be on par with that of internet explorer and Jaws. For example, Look at the steps you explained to highlight and copy text If you interact with text, use VO-shift-return, you can initiate marking of text and use VO-cursor keys to navigate and mark that text, then use VO-shift-return to stop marking the text. FInally command-c will copy that text for you to paste where you choose. You can also interact with text and use command-a to highlight all text you can then copy... On I.E. you would just use shift and the arrows or some function of navigation commonly used throughout the Operating system. In Snow Leopard one should be able to use the arrows by them selves to navigate a web page and with shift to select. This is not the case most of the time. The folks didn't include this functionality into snow leopard by accident or just to appease windows converts in my opinion. They realized that the previous method was just a pain, not to mention labor intensive in regards to the task actually trying to be accomplished. I use Dom mode and sometimes voiceover indeed skips over chunks of information. I am not saying that Safari with Voiceover isn't serviceable but, by no means in my opinion is it as dependable as I.E. with Jaws. And this is coming from someone who Uses their Mac as their primary computer. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
James: Re using preview: I can get to a next page button, but it continues to say, next page Button Press Next page button. This is one thing that really is getting me frustrated about my Mac learningstuff that simply doesn't seem to work. The Electronic beast continues to outsmart me!:) Carolyn - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? Try pressing page down. That should move you to the next page. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny James: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? TIA Carolyn CH:) - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at
Short cut key for putting item on the Dock
Simon, It doesn't involve VO but the following will do it. Shift command T adds selection to the Dock Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Fogarty Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:40 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Ok, how do you get something on to the doc, using vo? -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Roberts Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2010 6:30 a.m. To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Control-F2 brings up the Menu Bar, and Control-F3 will take you to the Doc. Matt Roberts Sent from my iPhone using VoiceOver On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:25 AM, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: Thanks, I knew about the ones from the menus. I was thinking more along the lines of commands that weren't obvious. Like, I know there is a mac OS10 command to get to the menu bar. VO M replaces this redundantly. Same for the dock. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:53 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Erik, You can find most of the shortcuts in menus. The Go menu in the Finder has lots of useful ones. I don't know of any handy document with a comprehensive list of them. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:23 PM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Ann, Do you have an appendix or quick reference for MAc OS shortcut keys? I know that VO replaces many of them redundantly and I would be very interested to see what the system itself offers. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:18 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Carolyn, There are no dumb questions. The physical mouse depends on what kind of computer you're using. On a recent MacBook or MacBook Pro, it's the trackpad itself, on an older MacBook, MacBook Pro, PowerBook or iBook, it's the trackpad button, and on a desktop computer, of course, it's the mouse. If you have MouseKeys turned on, it's usually possible to click the mouse by using FN and the letter i. You can also use the number 5 on the Numpad with Numpad Commander turned on. Control-click is the same thing as VO-Shift-m, but sometimes, the VO command doesn't work whereas the standard keyboard shortcut does. I usually prefer to use standard keyboard shortcuts where they exist, probably because I was using Macs long before VoiceOver appeared. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Carolyn wrote: Anne: I'm following this trying to learn. I feel pretty dumb asking this, but where is the mouse you click? Is it on the tracking pad? Sorry for how ridiculous this sounds. Carolyn - Original Message - From: Anne Robertson To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Hello Everett, There seems to be a focus issue in Snow Leopard, but you can get round it by navigating to the sender's name then bringing the mouse cursor to the VO cursor with VO-Command-F5. Then Control- click to get the contextual menu and it works as before. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:59 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good evening, On Leopard I could interact with the message headers in Mail and bring up a context menu on the Senders address. That functionality seems to be missing in Snow Leopard. Am I crazy, has this moved somewhere? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this
FW: Short cut key for putting item on the Dock
William, You're right. When I looked back at my notes, it is written command shift T. Does it make a difference on the key sequence? i.e. shift command t vs. command shift t Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of william Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:26 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Short cut key for putting item on the Dock Hello Linda, I think it's I think command+shift+t in snow leopard best regards, William Op 11-feb-2010, om 23:17 heeft Linda Adams het volgende geschreven: Simon, It doesn't involve VO but the following will do it. Shift command T adds selection to the Dock Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Fogarty Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:40 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Ok, how do you get something on to the doc, using vo? -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Roberts Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2010 6:30 a.m. To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Control-F2 brings up the Menu Bar, and Control-F3 will take you to the Doc. Matt Roberts Sent from my iPhone using VoiceOver On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:25 AM, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: Thanks, I knew about the ones from the menus. I was thinking more along the lines of commands that weren't obvious. Like, I know there is a mac OS10 command to get to the menu bar. VO M replaces this redundantly. Same for the dock. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:53 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Erik, You can find most of the shortcuts in menus. The Go menu in the Finder has lots of useful ones. I don't know of any handy document with a comprehensive list of them. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:23 PM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Ann, Do you have an appendix or quick reference for MAc OS shortcut keys? I know that VO replaces many of them redundantly and I would be very interested to see what the system itself offers. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:18 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Carolyn, There are no dumb questions. The physical mouse depends on what kind of computer you're using. On a recent MacBook or MacBook Pro, it's the trackpad itself, on an older MacBook, MacBook Pro, PowerBook or iBook, it's the trackpad button, and on a desktop computer, of course, it's the mouse. If you have MouseKeys turned on, it's usually possible to click the mouse by using FN and the letter i. You can also use the number 5 on the Numpad with Numpad Commander turned on. Control-click is the same thing as VO-Shift-m, but sometimes, the VO command doesn't work whereas the standard keyboard shortcut does. I usually prefer to use standard keyboard shortcuts where they exist, probably because I was using Macs long before VoiceOver appeared. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Carolyn wrote: Anne: I'm following this trying to learn. I feel pretty dumb asking this, but where is the mouse you click? Is it on the tracking pad? Sorry for how ridiculous this sounds. Carolyn - Original Message - From: Anne Robertson To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Hello Everett, There seems to be a focus issue in Snow Leopard, but you can get round it by navigating to the sender's name then bringing the mouse cursor to the VO cursor with VO-Command-F5. Then Control- click to get the contextual menu and it works as before. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:59 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good evening, On Leopard I could interact with the message headers in Mail and bring up a context menu on the Senders address. That functionality seems to be missing in Snow Leopard. Am I crazy, has this moved somewhere? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en .
Re: Short cut key for putting item on the Dock
No. It makes no difference if you press command or shift first On Feb 11, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Linda Adams wrote: William, You're right. When I looked back at my notes, it is written command shift T. Does it make a difference on the key sequence? i.e. shift command t vs. command shift t Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of william Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:26 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Short cut key for putting item on the Dock Hello Linda, I think it's I think command+shift+t in snow leopard best regards, William Op 11-feb-2010, om 23:17 heeft Linda Adams het volgende geschreven: Simon, It doesn't involve VO but the following will do it. Shift command T adds selection to the Dock Linda -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Fogarty Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:40 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Ok, how do you get something on to the doc, using vo? -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Roberts Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2010 6:30 a.m. To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: shortcut keys was Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Control-F2 brings up the Menu Bar, and Control-F3 will take you to the Doc. Matt Roberts Sent from my iPhone using VoiceOver On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:25 AM, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: Thanks, I knew about the ones from the menus. I was thinking more along the lines of commands that weren't obvious. Like, I know there is a mac OS10 command to get to the menu bar. VO M replaces this redundantly. Same for the dock. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:53 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Erik, You can find most of the shortcuts in menus. The Go menu in the Finder has lots of useful ones. I don't know of any handy document with a comprehensive list of them. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:23 PM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Ann, Do you have an appendix or quick reference for MAc OS shortcut keys? I know that VO replaces many of them redundantly and I would be very interested to see what the system itself offers. Best, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com On 2010-02-10, at 9:18 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Carolyn, There are no dumb questions. The physical mouse depends on what kind of computer you're using. On a recent MacBook or MacBook Pro, it's the trackpad itself, on an older MacBook, MacBook Pro, PowerBook or iBook, it's the trackpad button, and on a desktop computer, of course, it's the mouse. If you have MouseKeys turned on, it's usually possible to click the mouse by using FN and the letter i. You can also use the number 5 on the Numpad with Numpad Commander turned on. Control-click is the same thing as VO-Shift-m, but sometimes, the VO command doesn't work whereas the standard keyboard shortcut does. I usually prefer to use standard keyboard shortcuts where they exist, probably because I was using Macs long before VoiceOver appeared. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Carolyn wrote: Anne: I'm following this trying to learn. I feel pretty dumb asking this, but where is the mouse you click? Is it on the tracking pad? Sorry for how ridiculous this sounds. Carolyn - Original Message - From: Anne Robertson To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Snow Leopard Mail: Message headers Hello Everett, There seems to be a focus issue in Snow Leopard, but you can get round it by navigating to the sender's name then bringing the mouse cursor to the VO cursor with VO-Command-F5. Then Control- click to get the contextual menu and it works as before. Cheers, Anne On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:59 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good evening, On Leopard I could interact with the message headers in Mail and bring up a context menu on the Senders address. That functionality seems to be missing in Snow Leopard. Am I crazy, has this moved somewhere? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Selecting text in Safari
As there was a question about selecting text in Safari with VoiceOver here are some instructions for doing this. 1. Interact with the text on the page and navigate to the start of the text you want to select. 2. If not already doing so move the mouse to the VoiceOver cursor 3. Click the mouse with control-option-space bar 4. make sure you have QuickNav off. Now use the right and left arrow keys to get to the start of the text you wish to select. You will hear each letter as you go over it with the arrow keys. 5. Hold down the shift key and press the right arrow key to select the part of the page you wish to copy. You can also select whole lines with the down arrow key. VoiceOver will read what you have selected and tell you that it is selected. 6. Copy the text with either a command-c command or with the menu. The selected text will now be on the keyboard. Hope this helps. Gregory Kearney Manager - Accessible Media Association for the Blind of Western Australia 61 Kitchener Avenue, PO Box 101 Victoria Park 6979, WA Australia Telephone: +61 (08) 9311 8202 Telephone: +1 (307) 224-4022 (North America) Fax: +61 (08) 9361 8696 Toll free: 1800 658 388 (Australia only) Email: gkear...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
So Linda, what is the difference between holding down a couple extra keys? I have to use Window-Eyes at work since I have to use windows and WE offers the same command set. The only difference is pressing h and h with three other keys that can easily be done with one hand. Not sure how you would miss the functionality since it does exists? Is the issue more the number of keys? I don't understand how you could feel sad about this. After all, I am assuming the switch to the Mac was your choice? You understood I assume the commands would be different and you surely understood you would have to leave behind a lot of what you understood about windows and how JAWS provided the user interface experience? When I read messages like these, I try to understand the thought process behind them and why someone would feel sad or unhappy about the change, especially when they made the choice to switch. On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Linda Adams wrote: Carlene, This was sad news for me. As a new user, I was still hoping that I would come across similar hot keys with my Mac. Linda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Hi Carolyn, In the View menu, check that you have selected the single page option. Then once you've interacted with the PDF, try using page down to move to the next page. Although, if it is saying dimmed, perhaps it is a single page PDF? If this does not work, perhaps you could contact me on Skype, so that we can try to figure out what is going on. My skype is: saulky1984 TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 22:16, Carolyn wrote: James: Re using preview: I can get to a next page button, but it continues to say, next page Button Press Next page button. This is one thing that really is getting me frustrated about my Mac learningstuff that simply doesn't seem to work. The Electronic beast continues to outsmart me!:) Carolyn - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? Try pressing page down. That should move you to the next page. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny James: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? TIA Carolyn CH:) - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Hi Carolyn, The behavior of Preview under VoiceOver is closely tied to the version of Mac OS X that you are running, so because I am not running Snow Leopard, and also because some of the details of behavior can depend on both your application settings and your VoiceOver preference settings (especially cursor tracking and, under Snow Leopard, whether you're using QuickNav), I haven't tried to post instructions about using this app. However, here are a few suggestions you can try: 1. Check what PDF Display mode is being used under your View Menu. (VO-M to the menu bar, press V to go to the View menu, arrow down to PDF Display, then right arrow to the PDF Display submenu option settings. Are you using Single Page or Single Page Continuous? There can be reasons for using one or the other, depending on the source of your document, but for Apple User guides I'll usually use Single Page Continuous if I want to read straight through without having to use a key stroke to move to the next page. This is true for both Preview and Skim, but only if you interact with the text page (VO-Shift-Down arrow), and use VO-A to start and resume your reading. I can't stress this enough. Interacting is not instinctive when you come over from Windows. The deceptive point here is that VoiceOver will start reading even if you don't take the time to interact once you're in the text area. Under Tiger (OS X 10.4), if I use Travis Siegel's Softcon PDF Viewer (since there's no Single Page Continuous option under Preview with Tiger), you can read books with VoiceOver and only discover, a hundred or more pages into the PDF file, that because you forgot to interact when you started reading your position in the document is lost when you stop/pause. 2. Crucial points: if you first interact with the text area of Preview or Skim when reading your PDF document, you can move around with your VO-arrow keys (e.g., VO-Up arrow to re-read a previous line, VO-Left or Right arrow to review words, VO-Down arrow to skip down several lines on the page), and then resume reading from the current location with VO-A. In Skim, I can execute a Find with Command-F (either first stopping VoiceOver reading by pressing the Control key, or not), and use VO-A to resume reading at the next found location, etc. I can even command-tab away from the application and return to the place I left off reading if I press VO-A again. (In Preview there's a bug under Leopard that requires you to set a hot spot to get back to the place you left off if you switch applications. I think you also had to do this for Skim in earlier versions of Leopard. You need to ignore what VoiceOver starts reading and use VO-A to resume your location in Skim. This works for Mac OS X 10.5.8 and above in Leopard, I think, but don't quote me on this. And I'm sure I don't have the latest version of Skim.) 3. You might find it easier to hide the Preview toolbar. This shouldn't affect performance either way -- but you might find it simpler to navigate between the sidebar, where you are presumably reading a Table of Contents and selecting a section in the Apple User's Manual, and the text area, if the toolbar is hidden. I'm not sure how useful these comments will be to you under Snow Leopard. Another difficulty is that I used to be able to use the VoiceOver Getting Started Guide as an example PDF document for illustration purposes. Since there is no corresponding Snow Leopard PDF guide that I can point people to, it gets more difficult to give examples based on an actual guide. HTH Cheers, Esther On February 11, 2010, Carolyn wrote: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi Scott, I'm not Linda, but I had to respond to your note to her re the differences between moving around on a page among elements with Window Eyes or Jaws and Voice Over. You said that you didn't see much difference between pressing h by itself or pressing 3 additional keys in addition to h to move among headers. And you say this is easily done with one hand? You must have amazing hands. I can no way do that. I've been touch typing for decades. It gets even more interesting when you add the shift into the mix to go up the page in reverse order. Doable? yes? As easy as pressing one key? Not by a long shot. Are there other benefits, such as not having to go in and out of forms mode? for sure. The added functionality for VO on the web in Snow Leopard is one of the main reasons I decided to try a Mac. I really appreciate the numpad commander, although learning it was not as intuitive as learning mnemonics on the regular keyboard. In no way is the rotor as efficient for me as having that array of single letter keystrokes that let me move among various web elements at will. Another thing I hope can be implemented in the future is a means of letting focus return to where it was when you return back to a previously visited page. That's a big time saver with the Windows screen readers, although it doesn't always work. Its nonexistent with vo. I like the fact that pages seem to load faster with Safari than they do with IE and a screen reader. Over all, for me, the Windows experience is still more efficient. But there are pluses with the Mac, and I'm hoping it will keep improving. Group mode is something I have tried and dropped. I just never found a page where it seemed to offer any advantage, since I don't really care how the page is laid out. I want info and where it is on the page just doesn't seem very important to me, so long as I can get to it efficiently. Maybe I don't go to the right sites where group mode's benefits are displayed to best advantage. Mary -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Mary, What I was pointing out is that jumping from heading to heading may not be as simple as just pressing h, but the functionality still exists, even if you have to hold some additional keys down. In the end you use what works best for you. YOu say browsing using IE on windows is more efficient for you and that is great, but for me I have found ways of becoming very efficient using VO and Safari. In fact I prefer in nearly all cases now, using VO and Safari. There was a time I may have agreed with you, but as I really became comfortable with VO and the entire Mac experience, I really have no use for windows or windows-based screen readers. Well the only reason I use windows personally is for some courses I am taking that use news groups and so far outlook express is the only choice I have found thus far and since most the materials have to be produced using Word, I have to drag that out. Otherwise, I honestly do find the Mac works well for me. Again, you use what works for you because being efficient and productive is most important. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Mary Otten wrote: Hi Scott, I'm not Linda, but I had to respond to your note to her re the differences between moving around on a page among elements with Window Eyes or Jaws and Voice Over. You said that you didn't see much difference between pressing h by itself or pressing 3 additional keys in addition to h to move among headers. And you say this is easily done with one hand? You must have amazing hands. I can no way do that. I've been touch typing for decades. It gets even more interesting when you add the shift into the mix to go up the page in reverse order. Doable? yes? As easy as pressing one key? Not by a long shot. Are there other benefits, such as not having to go in and out of forms mode? for sure. The added functionality for VO on the web in Snow Leopard is one of the main reasons I decided to try a Mac. I really appreciate the numpad commander, although learning it was not as intuitive as learning mnemonics on the regular keyboard. In no way is the rotor as efficient for me as having that array of single letter keystrokes that let me move among various web elements at will. Another thing I hope can be implemented in the future is a means of letting focus return to where it was when you return back to a previously visited page. That's a big time saver with the Windows screen readers, although it doesn't always work. Its nonexistent with vo. I like the fact that pages seem to load faster with Safari than they do with IE and a screen reader. Over all, for me, the Windows experience is still more efficient. But there are pluses with the Mac, and I'm hoping it will keep improving. Group mode is something I have tried and dropped. I just never found a page where it seemed to offer any advantage, since I don't really care how the page is laid out. I want info and where it is on the page just doesn't seem very important to me, so long as I can get to it efficiently. Maybe I don't go to the right sites where group mode's benefits are displayed to best advantage. Mary -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
iPod Touch Voiceover Contacts(address book) question.
Hi all, I was just thinking about this, How good is VoiceOver reading entries in the Ipod touch address book? I Just thought about how my phone doesn't really sync well with my macbook pro, and furthermore doesn't contain data like street addresses, and websites. and I know for a fact all of that is included into my ipod Nano, but I can't read it! and I don't think I could read the contact list in an ipod touch either, and would prefer leaving screen zoom off and using voiceover if I should get an ipod touch (or even down the road, maybe even an ipad). How well does this work for look ups? I'm guessing that if it works good, then we'd have accessible pda's that are not big and bulky and don't cost $1000 (well except for the top of the line ipad). Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
I've got a question about preview, now that you mention it. when I was trying to read the Vo getting started PDF, I would stop speech with control and then when I wanted to continue, it would go back to the beginning of the paragraph I was on. It was very frustrating. How do you get around that? On Feb 11, 2010, at 12:51 PM, James Nash wrote: Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? Try pressing page down. That should move you to the next page. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny James: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer. Would I get further using the Skim program you mentioned here? TIA Carolyn CH:) - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:12 AM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Yes there is, it is called Skim and you can get it from SourceForge or: http://www.opensourcemac.org TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:27, E.J. Zufelt wrote: Good morning, Other than Preview is there a PDF viewer / reader application that is accessible with VoiceOver? Thanks, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 7:23 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: The PDF author did not use the appropriate table tags in your problem document. You may be able to do a select all and copy and paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet which may be able to sort out the broken table for you. Otherwise, you are SOL - Viva Adobe! On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Hi Guys, I've got a list of contacts here in PDF format. It's a sort'a table with name, address, phone number and so on. So, no matter how I view this table in prevuew, it always gives me all the names first. After that it gives me all the addresses. Then it gives me all the phone numbers. I've tried going up and down, left and right, with and without quick nav, and the order is always the same no matter what. I'm sure it doesn't look this way on the screen. It's got to be information across the columns and contacts up and down the rows like a deacent table, but I can't get it to read that way using preview with voiceover. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks, erik burggraaf A+ certified technician and user support consultant. Phone: 888-255-5194 Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
I think that Linda and I can switch knowing that we have more reliable and faster computers and are able to do things pretty much as we would like, but no OS or software is perfect, and though we chose to move to OSX, it doesn't mean that we won't miss anything in JAWS. I didn't mean to cast a negative light on Safari, but was simply stating what I missed. For instance, how do you get to combo boxes without doing four steps, and what is a practical way to use radio buttons? Maybe I'm missing something, and please let me know if I am. Scott, please don't take it so personally.LInda, I apologize for discouraging you; Safari works fine. On Feb 11, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Scott Howell wrote: So Linda, what is the difference between holding down a couple extra keys? I have to use Window-Eyes at work since I have to use windows and WE offers the same command set. The only difference is pressing h and h with three other keys that can easily be done with one hand. Not sure how you would miss the functionality since it does exists? Is the issue more the number of keys? I don't understand how you could feel sad about this. After all, I am assuming the switch to the Mac was your choice? You understood I assume the commands would be different and you surely understood you would have to leave behind a lot of what you understood about windows and how JAWS provided the user interface experience? When I read messages like these, I try to understand the thought process behind them and why someone would feel sad or unhappy about the change, especially when they made the choice to switch. On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Linda Adams wrote: Carlene, This was sad news for me. As a new user, I was still hoping that I would come across similar hot keys with my Mac. Linda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hi Aman, just let me echo your sentiments to Chris back at ya! smile nice to see you here! You asked about context, and its importance; Let me just comment that there have been many situations on the web in particular, where context itself has greatly assisted me. In particular, this has helped me many times in filling out forms. If controls or questions aren't clear, or an edit field per se, isn't labeled quite right, just its positional context can explain it to me. So for myself, this can be a great comfort in understanding and working with a document. Does this make sense? Thanks for reading and once again, nice to have you with us!… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Aman Singer wrote: Hi, CDH. It is very good to see you here. As usual, one of your messages has gotten me to think. You say: Now, I use Macintosh with Safari. The Windows way of doing things tried to emulate a word processor or some other similar text manipulation application with which a user would already be familiar. This is good in the sense that the learning curve is not too steep but leaves out all of the contextual information a sighted user would have resulting from the juxtaposition of objects in the page's layout. I agree with the fact that contextual information is usually left out in what I might describe, after Jaws, Wineyes, and SA, as the standard method of browsing on Windows. However, I'm a bit confused as to why this matters. Maybe I'm missing the glaringly obvious, but why would the contextual information interest me on most web pages? By contextual information, I assume you mean the placement of information on the page in relation to other aspects of the page. Maybe this is really vital to sighted users, and maybe I'd love it if I had it, but as it stands, I would put access to contextual information rather low on the list of priorities. The whole point of any web page, at least for me, is to use the information on that page, and any services the page offers, easily and quickly. I can see certain pages where the information is important, but for the vast majority of pages, where things are put, what they look like, etc, doesn't fill me with curiosity. How does contextual information, for a blind user, aid in this? Feel free to point me to an article explaining this if there is one. Thanks. Aman On 2/11/10, Chris Hofstader c...@hofstader.com wrote: I'm in touch with both Willy and Mike and I'll pass on your regards. On Feb 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, James Nash wrote: I would love to help, but I am only just getting into programming. BTW, I tried to get in touch with Will Walker to pass on how sorry I was regarding his job loss and to find out what the current state of Orca was on Linux. This is indeed very disturbing and more than a little annoying. Just in case anyone else is trying to get hold of him at his Sun address, it no longer exists. TC James, Lyn, Nash Twinny On 11 Feb 2010, at 12:53, Chris Hofstader wrote: With last year's lay offs at IBM and last week's lay offs at Sun, the future of large scale accessibility projects in free/open source software looks pretty disorganized at the moment. Marco (with whom I used to work at Freedom Scientific) is really dedicated but the overwhelmingly large Windows market share leads the understaffed Mozilla to pretty much focus on Windows accessibility with proprietary screen access tools like JAWS and Window-Eyes. While this is unfortunate, it does reach the majority of users so, without Apple or some other big organization to underwrite an accessibility effort, it's all up to volunteers. I would think that orca itself would require at least one full time paid staff member and we ain't got the cash for a part timer in a lower cost environment like China. Project GNU (www.gnu.org) is kicking off its first ever accessibility effort. This project has zero money and only me to look after it in my spare time. We will, of course, be focussing on GNU/Linux distros and I can't say that I know enough about Apple accessibility API to know how similar it is to what I think is iAccessible2 at the heart of Firefox access on Windows. I do not know what it uses on GNOME but I would assume it is the GNOME accessibility API. The bad economy in the US and EU is killing large scale free software efforts. We're back to mostly volunteers and scholars working randomly on their favorite issues. I'm going to try to add some order to all of this but it will be a cat herding effort and there are a lot of cats involved. cdh Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: Looking forward to trying out Firefox with VO working someday. FF has really good ARIA support so it would be nice to have a browser on the Mac that works well with this standard.
Re: iPod Touch Voiceover Contacts(address book) question.
Hi Pete: I use the contact list on my touch all the time with VO. I think it is a lot easier than Address Book. On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Pete Nalda wrote: Hi all, I was just thinking about this, How good is VoiceOver reading entries in the Ipod touch address book? I Just thought about how my phone doesn't really sync well with my macbook pro, and furthermore doesn't contain data like street addresses, and websites. and I know for a fact all of that is included into my ipod Nano, but I can't read it! and I don't think I could read the contact list in an ipod touch either, and would prefer leaving screen zoom off and using voiceover if I should get an ipod touch (or even down the road, maybe even an ipad). How well does this work for look ups? I'm guessing that if it works good, then we'd have accessible pda's that are not big and bulky and don't cost $1000 (well except for the top of the line ipad). Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Hello, If I may, I would like to point out that all navigation through elements on a web page can be done with one hand and you don't need to remember a lot of keys. When in dom. mode, press the left and right arrows at the same time to enter quick nav mode. Now, press the left-up or right-up to cycle through the navigation items in the roter. Then, navigate through the chosen element with the up or down keys. As far as returning to the prior place in a web page, I have not found it to be non existent. There are many times that it works, although, I would like to see it work more consistently. I haven't found any screen reader do it very well. I would also like to say that I never found any of the vo key strokes to be difficult and I never understood why some people seemed to have such a hang-up with them. There are some circumstances where one might need to perform a task with only one hand, and I think that it was some what of a legitimate concern earlier on. As I pointed out however, that issue has been addressed with quick nav. On Feb 11, 2010, at 6:23 PM, Mary Otten wrote: Hi Scott, I'm not Linda, but I had to respond to your note to her re the differences between moving around on a page among elements with Window Eyes or Jaws and Voice Over. You said that you didn't see much difference between pressing h by itself or pressing 3 additional keys in addition to h to move among headers. And you say this is easily done with one hand? You must have amazing hands. I can no way do that. I've been touch typing for decades. It gets even more interesting when you add the shift into the mix to go up the page in reverse order. Doable? yes? As easy as pressing one key? Not by a long shot. Are there other benefits, such as not having to go in and out of forms mode? for sure. The added functionality for VO on the web in Snow Leopard is one of the main reasons I decided to try a Mac. I really appreciate the numpad commander, although learning it was not as intuitive as learning mnemonics on the regular keyboard. In no way is the rotor as efficient for me as having that array of single letter keystrokes that let me move among various web elements at will. Another thing I hope can be implemented in the future is a means of letting focus return to where it was when you return back to a previously visited page. That's a big time saver with the Windows screen readers, although it doesn't always work. Its nonexistent with vo. I like the fact that pages seem to load faster with Safari than they do with IE and a screen reader. Over all, for me, the Windows experience is still more efficient. But there are pluses with the Mac, and I'm hoping it will keep improving. Group mode is something I have tried and dropped. I just never found a page where it seemed to offer any advantage, since I don't really care how the page is laid out. I want info and where it is on the page just doesn't seem very important to me, so long as I can get to it efficiently. Maybe I don't go to the right sites where group mode's benefits are displayed to best advantage. Mary -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: iPod Touch Voiceover Contacts(address book) question.
Oh cool, Ok, I kind of thought this, but thought I'd ask here since a lot of people on this list use the ipod touch, and I didn't know if there would be any contact entries in a floor model of one at the Apple store. There are a lot of 2nd Gen. ipod touches on Craigslist here in Austin at the moment but I don't know if they'd have VO or not, so I think I'll just save up for a new 32 gig, that is unless I decide I want to jump to an ipad. On Feb 11, 2010, at 7:59 PM, carlene knight wrote: Hi Pete: I use the contact list on my touch all the time with VO. I think it is a lot easier than Address Book. On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Pete Nalda wrote: Hi all, I was just thinking about this, How good is VoiceOver reading entries in the Ipod touch address book? I Just thought about how my phone doesn't really sync well with my macbook pro, and furthermore doesn't contain data like street addresses, and websites. and I know for a fact all of that is included into my ipod Nano, but I can't read it! and I don't think I could read the contact list in an ipod touch either, and would prefer leaving screen zoom off and using voiceover if I should get an ipod touch (or even down the road, maybe even an ipad). How well does this work for look ups? I'm guessing that if it works good, then we'd have accessible pda's that are not big and bulky and don't cost $1000 (well except for the top of the line ipad). Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates) Pete Nalda http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
possible voiceover possibilities for office for mac 2011???
hi all I have just read on the mac world website that microsoft has announced the launch of office for mac 2011. Could this be the answer to our prayers by finally being accessible to voiceover users? Does anyone have the inside line on this? Keep your fingers crossed. Scott -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: possible voiceover possibilities for office for mac 2011???
Good evening Scott, My speculation is that Microsoft Office 2011 will not be accessible with VoiceOver. I cannot imagine that Office was developed with native Cocoa user interface components. As a matter of fact for some user interface components (the ribbon) Microsoft would have to create their own custom classes. I cannot imagine that Microsoft would have put the time into ensuring that these classes were accessible. I hope to be shown to be wrong. HTH, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 11:02 PM, Scott Ballard-RidleyScott Ridley wrote: hi all I have just read on the mac world website that microsoft has announced the launch of office for mac 2011. Could this be the answer to our prayers by finally being accessible to voiceover users? Does anyone have the inside line on this? Keep your fingers crossed. Scott -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document.
Hi Esther: Thank you again and again. Actually, the MacBook Pro has snowleopard, and there is a 73 page PDF user guide that I was referring to. Maybe you should write a book, or I should win the lotto so I could fly you into Denver to beat this stuff into me somehow.:) In any case thank you. I'll be exploring with Alex again tomorrow.grin Take care. Carolyn- Original Message - From: Esther To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi Carolyn, The behavior of Preview under VoiceOver is closely tied to the version of Mac OS X that you are running, so because I am not running Snow Leopard, and also because some of the details of behavior can depend on both your application settings and your VoiceOver preference settings (especially cursor tracking and, under Snow Leopard, whether you're using QuickNav), I haven't tried to post instructions about using this app. However, here are a few suggestions you can try: 1. Check what PDF Display mode is being used under your View Menu. (VO-M to the menu bar, press V to go to the View menu, arrow down to PDF Display, then right arrow to the PDF Display submenu option settings. Are you using Single Page or Single Page Continuous? There can be reasons for using one or the other, depending on the source of your document, but for Apple User guides I'll usually use Single Page Continuous if I want to read straight through without having to use a key stroke to move to the next page. This is true for both Preview and Skim, but only if you interact with the text page (VO-Shift-Down arrow), and use VO-A to start and resume your reading. I can't stress this enough. Interacting is not instinctive when you come over from Windows. The deceptive point here is that VoiceOver will start reading even if you don't take the time to interact once you're in the text area. Under Tiger (OS X 10.4), if I use Travis Siegel's Softcon PDF Viewer (since there's no Single Page Continuous option under Preview with Tiger), you can read books with VoiceOver and only discover, a hundred or more pages into the PDF file, that because you forgot to interact when you started reading your position in the document is lost when you stop/pause. 2. Crucial points: if you first interact with the text area of Preview or Skim when reading your PDF document, you can move around with your VO-arrow keys (e.g., VO-Up arrow to re-read a previous line, VO-Left or Right arrow to review words, VO-Down arrow to skip down several lines on the page), and then resume reading from the current location with VO-A. In Skim, I can execute a Find with Command-F (either first stopping VoiceOver reading by pressing the Control key, or not), and use VO-A to resume reading at the next found location, etc. I can even command-tab away from the application and return to the place I left off reading if I press VO-A again. (In Preview there's a bug under Leopard that requires you to set a hot spot to get back to the place you left off if you switch applications. I think you also had to do this for Skim in earlier versions of Leopard. You need to ignore what VoiceOver starts reading and use VO-A to resume your location in Skim. This works for Mac OS X 10.5.8 and above in Leopard, I think, but don't quote me on this. And I'm sure I don't have the latest version of Skim.) 3. You might find it easier to hide the Preview toolbar. This shouldn't affect performance either way -- but you might find it simpler to navigate between the sidebar, where you are presumably reading a Table of Contents and selecting a section in the Apple User's Manual, and the text area, if the toolbar is hidden. I'm not sure how useful these comments will be to you under Snow Leopard. Another difficulty is that I used to be able to use the VoiceOver Getting Started Guide as an example PDF document for illustration purposes. Since there is no corresponding Snow Leopard PDF guide that I can point people to, it gets more difficult to give examples based on an actual guide. HTH Cheers, Esther On February 11, 2010, Carolyn wrote: James: Re using preview: I can get to a next page button, but it continues to say, next page Button Press Next page button. This is one thing that really is getting me frustrated about my Mac learningstuff that simply doesn't seem to work. The Electronic beast continues to outsmart me!:) Carolyn - Original Message - From: James Nash To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Accessible PDF viewer, was weird pdf document. Hi Carolyn On 11 Feb 2010, at 19:43, Carolyn wrote: I'm looking at a user guide in a pdf file, on the MacBook Pro. I can't seem to get beyond the first page, or copyright info. I assume this is because I'm using previewer.
Re: Additional help needed with Reading line by line
About the best that I can do is to use vo/left and right arrows while in Dom mode. It works fairly well. Today I was able to just use the arrow keys on a page, but I'm not sure why. On Feb 11, 2010, at 1:24 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, It's only a chance thing. It's very, very unstable to use the arrow keys only. As those who can make it work will probably agree with. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:34 AM, carlene knight wrote: Hi: vo/left and right arrows will though. You might have to interact with HtML though. I have my Mac set so that the tab key will automatically interact. HOpe that helps. On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:29 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Nic, DOM mode doesn't allow me to do anything when just using the arrow keys except when Quick Nav is on, and in that case, the up and down arrows perform the action selected using the rotor (links, headers, etc.). I suppose if there's a table it's possible to move up and down. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Additional help needed with Reading line by line
Yeah. lol. That thing just has a mind of its on. On Feb 12, 2010, at 12:03 AM, carlene knight wrote: About the best that I can do is to use vo/left and right arrows while in Dom mode. It works fairly well. Today I was able to just use the arrow keys on a page, but I'm not sure why. On Feb 11, 2010, at 1:24 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi, It's only a chance thing. It's very, very unstable to use the arrow keys only. As those who can make it work will probably agree with. Regards, Nic Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:34 AM, carlene knight wrote: Hi: vo/left and right arrows will though. You might have to interact with HtML though. I have my Mac set so that the tab key will automatically interact. HOpe that helps. On Feb 5, 2010, at 12:29 AM, Anne Robertson wrote: Hello Nic, DOM mode doesn't allow me to do anything when just using the arrow keys except when Quick Nav is on, and in that case, the up and down arrows perform the action selected using the rotor (links, headers, etc.). I suppose if there's a table it's possible to move up and down. Cheers, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. carlene knight http://carleneknight.blogspot.com ckni...@knight-toolworks.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Blog post: First Glance at Firefox Accessibility on OS X Snow Leopard
Yes, I realize that quicknav is one of those very useful additions to VO in Snow Leopard. I would add, however, that the rotor with quicknav is not as fast as simply typing a mnemonic to immediately get you to the form element or other control you want. You have to cycle through the rotor to get to the type of control you navigate to. Its another tool, and its great. And as I thought I pointed out in my previous post, there are efficiencies gained in Safari with VO because you don't have to cycle in and out of forms mode, as you do with a Windows screen reader. I have not found one page where I am returned to the place I was reading when I left that page by clicking a link. If this works sometimes that's great. I hope I land on one of those websites some time. Mary -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: possible voiceover possibilities for office for mac 2011???
Hi all, I read on a french Mac blog that MS rewrite Office with Cocoa. So just wait and see ! Philippe Le 12 févr. 2010 à 05:07, E.J. Zufelt a écrit : Good evening Scott, My speculation is that Microsoft Office 2011 will not be accessible with VoiceOver. I cannot imagine that Office was developed with native Cocoa user interface components. As a matter of fact for some user interface components (the ribbon) Microsoft would have to create their own custom classes. I cannot imagine that Microsoft would have put the time into ensuring that these classes were accessible. I hope to be shown to be wrong. HTH, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 11:02 PM, Scott Ballard-RidleyScott Ridley wrote: hi all I have just read on the mac world website that microsoft has announced the launch of office for mac 2011. Could this be the answer to our prayers by finally being accessible to voiceover users? Does anyone have the inside line on this? Keep your fingers crossed. Scott -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: possible voiceover possibilities for office for mac 2011???
and microsoft are the supposed company banging accessibility to death it disgusting On 12 Feb 2010, at 05:50, Philippe Brun wrote: Hi all, I read on a french Mac blog that MS rewrite Office with Cocoa. So just wait and see ! Philippe Le 12 févr. 2010 à 05:07, E.J. Zufelt a écrit : Good evening Scott, My speculation is that Microsoft Office 2011 will not be accessible with VoiceOver. I cannot imagine that Office was developed with native Cocoa user interface components. As a matter of fact for some user interface components (the ribbon) Microsoft would have to create their own custom classes. I cannot imagine that Microsoft would have put the time into ensuring that these classes were accessible. I hope to be shown to be wrong. HTH, Everett Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-02-11, at 11:02 PM, Scott Ballard-RidleyScott Ridley wrote: hi all I have just read on the mac world website that microsoft has announced the launch of office for mac 2011. Could this be the answer to our prayers by finally being accessible to voiceover users? Does anyone have the inside line on this? Keep your fingers crossed. Scott -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
