Re: Braille Support in OS X

[E.T.]

   This is exactly the kind of feedback we need. So far, the lack of 
independent cursor tracking is a major complaint.


   In respect to BRLTTY, I think we should leave that and just focus on 
encouraging Apple to improve what is already in place at least in this 
thread.


   So far we have the lack of independent cursor tracking and little or 
no formatting support.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/6/2015 6:00 AM, Blee Blat wrote:

Yes, that's the biggest problem is no independent braille cursor and not enough 
customizations.  Also that would fix the cursor routing issues as well.



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adium setting up accounts

[Singing Sparrow]

I am having trouble setting up an account in Adium.
I have a yahoo account i want to set up in adium but when i try setting 
it up nothing happens.

Do i need the full yahoo email id or just the first part?
also what version truely supports yahoo messenger?
Can anyone help?

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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[eileen . misrahi]

As I use the app MBraille to compose this post, I'm disheartened to even 
attempt to use my Apex with my MacBook Air. Braille is such a part of my daily 
life in so many ways, except on my Mac. Are there basic braille command 
keystrokes for VO to look at before embarking on this journey? 

Thanks in advance.

Best,
Eileen

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:26 AM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   This is exactly the kind of feedback we need. So far, the lack of 
> independent cursor tracking is a major complaint.
> 
>   In respect to BRLTTY, I think we should leave that and just focus on 
> encouraging Apple to improve what is already in place at least in this thread.
> 
>   So far we have the lack of independent cursor tracking and little or no 
> formatting support.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
>> On 10/6/2015 6:00 AM, Blee Blat wrote:
>> Yes, that's the biggest problem is no independent braille cursor and not 
>> enough customizations.  Also that would fix the cursor routing issues as 
>> well.
>> 
> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Thats  true mate.
I really don’t like that.
/A
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 09:22, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Please pardon my ignorance here, but isn’t dots 7 and 8 also the way the 
> cursor is represented in the PC world? You don’t have dots 7 and 8 across the 
> whole line where the cursor is, do you?
> /Krister
> 
>> 6 okt. 2015 kl. 03:07 skrev Devin Prater > >:
>> 
>> Well, as I said, they could just do as they do on the iPhone. Or they could 
>> have a full cell enclosing the text of the voiceover cursor, as the braille 
>> sense does with selected text.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Alex Hall > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Okay, that makes sense, and I remember thinking the same thing during my 
>>> brief flirtation with braille on OS X years back. Dots 7 and 8 seems like a 
>>> great way to highlight text in braille, until you actually try to read it. 
>>> Then it just slows you down and is plain distracting. I think you can turn 
>>> it off, but how else might Apple indicate VO focus to braille users?
 On Oct 5, 2015, at 20:55, Devin Prater > wrote:
 
 For me, at least, having to feel dots 7 and 8 just to know where the 
 cursor is is just not what I'd like. For example, when I'm in a dialog, 
 and voiceover focus is on the text of the dialog, its hard to read with 
 dots 7 and 8 in the way. I'd like the mac braille implimentation to be 
 more like the iPhone, or at least have the choice.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:42 PM, Alex Hall > wrote:
 
> Can you explain a bit more about the VoiceOver cursor and dots 7 and 8? 
> How does the use of dots 7 and 8 pose a problem, and what does the VO 
> cursor indicate or not indicate that you would like changed? I'm just not 
> following this one, and I want to be sure I explain it correctly in the 
> list I'm compiling. Thanks.
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 17:54, Devin Prater > > wrote:
>> 
>> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like 
>> italics and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, 
>> VoiceOver just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is 
>> formatted any differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't 
>> change the fact that braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and 
>> the only way to know what truely is in the cursor is to have the 
>> annoying dots 7 and 8 showing.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T. > > wrote:
>> 
>>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" 
>>> discussion of the braille support in OS X.
>>> 
>>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are 
>>> the shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two 
>>> reasons. One, to better use this personally, and two, to better 
>>> communicate it to Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it 
>>> will be more effective if we can stay on track.
>>> 
>>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS 
>>> X so please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille 
>>> support in OS X. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
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>>> .
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>> .
>> 
>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Thats the problem i don’t like about the braille support on the mac.
Thats why i don’t use any braille display on the mac right now.
/A
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 08:50, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> My problem is, i think, a typical european problem as i understand it.
> I haven’t worked a lot with Braille, so if this problem is fixed then all is 
> well. As it is right now, braille repeats just what the speech says rather 
> like in the structured mode of Jaws. It would be nice if the braille cursor 
> could work independently of the speech so that i could investigate typing 
> errors, words i don’t know the spelling of etc. The braille doesn’t 
> necessarily have to repeat what the speech just said if i don’t explicitly 
> want this but then it should be an option in the rotor or something to that 
> effect.
> These are my two gripes about the braille and it’s what i have heard from 
> some people here in Sweden as well. What i mean by that this is an european 
> problem is that it seems europeans want a more independent braille while in 
> the U.S this isn’t or mostly isn’t the case. If this is all wrong i stand 
> corrected and apologize to the list in advance.
> /Krister
> 
>> 5 okt. 2015 kl. 23:54 skrev Devin Prater > >:
>> 
>> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like 
>> italics and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, 
>> VoiceOver just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is 
>> formatted any differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't 
>> change the fact that braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and the 
>> only way to know what truely is in the cursor is to have the annoying dots 7 
>> and 8 showing.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T. > > wrote:
>> 
>>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" discussion 
>>> of the braille support in OS X.
>>> 
>>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are the 
>>> shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two 
>>> reasons. One, to better use this personally, and two, to better communicate 
>>> it to Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it will be more 
>>> effective if we can stay on track.
>>> 
>>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS X 
>>> so please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille support 
>>> in OS X. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
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>>> .
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>> .
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Scott Davert]

Hi Eileen.
Many of the iOS commands you have come to know will work great on OSX.
here's a podcast which may also help you get started.
http://applevis.com/podcast/episodes/using-braille-displays-mac

Scott

On 10/6/15, eileen.misr...@gmail.com  wrote:
> As I use the app MBraille to compose this post, I'm disheartened to even
> attempt to use my Apex with my MacBook Air. Braille is such a part of my
> daily life in so many ways, except on my Mac. Are there basic braille
> command keystrokes for VO to look at before embarking on this journey?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best,
> Eileen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:26 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>>
>>   This is exactly the kind of feedback we need. So far, the lack of
>> independent cursor tracking is a major complaint.
>>
>>   In respect to BRLTTY, I think we should leave that and just focus on
>> encouraging Apple to improve what is already in place at least in this
>> thread.
>>
>>   So far we have the lack of independent cursor tracking and little or no
>> formatting support.
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>
>>> On 10/6/2015 6:00 AM, Blee Blat wrote:
>>> Yes, that's the biggest problem is no independent braille cursor and not
>>> enough customizations.  Also that would fix the cursor routing issues as
>>> well.
>>>
>>
>> --
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>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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Podcast order in iTunes

[Marshall Scott]

Hi Folks,
Is it possible to change the order of Podcasts in iTunes in Yosemite?  I'd like 
to move the Recent Updates item from the top of the list of podcasts to the 
bottom of the list.  I tried using Drag and Drop with Voiceover but it didn't 
work.
Thanks,
Marshall
 

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Bying a new computer.

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Am about to spend money on a new Mac.
I have been comparing macs on app store.
First i really wanted a macbook Air but the i wanted my 11 inch with 8 gb ram 
and 512 flash disk.
And that will cost me more than i can afford.
I don’t know the differences in the processor types.
I mean is 2.7 much faster than 1.6 ghz.
Ofcourse i could reduce the flash drive to 256 gigabyte but it feels very very 
small.
My mac mini has a harddisk capacity thats 500 gb.
I will also use my mac for some hobby music production and i don’t know if 8gb 
of ram is enough for that.
I actually did a comparision with a mac mini 2.7 GzH with a ram amount of 16 gb 
and a fusion drive of 1 tb.
Thats much  cheaper than the mac book air i put to gether on the app store app.
Maybe thats the way to go.
But if some has some ideas i’d be more than happy to hear from you.
Thanks.
/A

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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Krister Ekstrom]

maybe an alternative for Apple would be to compile the Brltty kit into VO and 
use it instead of their own braille? At least that would be an option if Apple 
feels they aren’t that good at Braille.
/Krister

> 6 okt. 2015 kl. 08:04 skrev Devin Prater :
> 
> Can BRLTTY be compiled for the mac?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 11:58 PM, Blee Blat  wrote:
>> 
>> I don't find dots 7 and 8 hard to read with text I just don't understand why 
>> I would need to know the position of the VoiceOver  cursor without knowing 
>> the positions of the system cursor. I think they should have separate 
>> braille and speech cursors as well as the system cursor. The user should be 
>> able to select which dot patterns represent what. This needs to be extremely 
>> customizable because the user is going to want to read braille differently 
>> depending on display size and reading ability and other things. Also 
>> something like BRLTTY's skipping of blank windows and sliding windows 
>> features would be lovely for small displays. BRLTTY will optionally remove 
>> white space and other screen areas that are just blank  and then try to fill 
>> as much of the display with text as it possibly can. This is good for when 
>> you're just reading a document like a book where you don't need to care 
>> about indentation or other formatting. You can toggle all this stuff on and 
>> off as needed.  I hope that made at least some sense, but if not feel free 
>> to ask more questions.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Devin Prater]

Can BRLTTY be compiled for the mac?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 11:58 PM, Blee Blat  wrote:
> 
> I don't find dots 7 and 8 hard to read with text I just don't understand why 
> I would need to know the position of the VoiceOver  cursor without knowing 
> the positions of the system cursor. I think they should have separate braille 
> and speech cursors as well as the system cursor. The user should be able to 
> select which dot patterns represent what. This needs to be extremely 
> customizable because the user is going to want to read braille differently 
> depending on display size and reading ability and other things. Also 
> something like BRLTTY's skipping of blank windows and sliding windows 
> features would be lovely for small displays. BRLTTY will optionally remove 
> white space and other screen areas that are just blank  and then try to fill 
> as much of the display with text as it possibly can. This is good for when 
> you're just reading a document like a book where you don't need to care about 
> indentation or other formatting. You can toggle all this stuff on and off as 
> needed.  I hope that made at least some sense, but if not feel free to ask 
> more questions.
> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
My problem is, i think, a typical european problem as i understand it.
I haven’t worked a lot with Braille, so if this problem is fixed then all is 
well. As it is right now, braille repeats just what the speech says rather like 
in the structured mode of Jaws. It would be nice if the braille cursor could 
work independently of the speech so that i could investigate typing errors, 
words i don’t know the spelling of etc. The braille doesn’t necessarily have to 
repeat what the speech just said if i don’t explicitly want this but then it 
should be an option in the rotor or something to that effect.
These are my two gripes about the braille and it’s what i have heard from some 
people here in Sweden as well. What i mean by that this is an european problem 
is that it seems europeans want a more independent braille while in the U.S 
this isn’t or mostly isn’t the case. If this is all wrong i stand corrected and 
apologize to the list in advance.
/Krister

> 5 okt. 2015 kl. 23:54 skrev Devin Prater :
> 
> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like italics 
> and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, VoiceOver 
> just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is formatted any 
> differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't change the fact that 
> braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and the only way to know what 
> truely is in the cursor is to have the annoying dots 7 and 8 showing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T.  > wrote:
> 
>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" discussion 
>> of the braille support in OS X.
>> 
>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are the 
>> shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two reasons. 
>> One, to better use this personally, and two, to better communicate it to 
>> Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it will be more effective 
>> if we can stay on track.
>> 
>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS X so 
>> please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille support in 
>> OS X. Thanks.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
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>> .
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>> .
> 
> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
Please pardon my ignorance here, but isn’t dots 7 and 8 also the way the cursor 
is represented in the PC world? You don’t have dots 7 and 8 across the whole 
line where the cursor is, do you?
/Krister

> 6 okt. 2015 kl. 03:07 skrev Devin Prater :
> 
> Well, as I said, they could just do as they do on the iPhone. Or they could 
> have a full cell enclosing the text of the voiceover cursor, as the braille 
> sense does with selected text.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 5, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Alex Hall  > wrote:
> 
>> Okay, that makes sense, and I remember thinking the same thing during my 
>> brief flirtation with braille on OS X years back. Dots 7 and 8 seems like a 
>> great way to highlight text in braille, until you actually try to read it. 
>> Then it just slows you down and is plain distracting. I think you can turn 
>> it off, but how else might Apple indicate VO focus to braille users?
>>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 20:55, Devin Prater >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> For me, at least, having to feel dots 7 and 8 just to know where the cursor 
>>> is is just not what I'd like. For example, when I'm in a dialog, and 
>>> voiceover focus is on the text of the dialog, its hard to read with dots 7 
>>> and 8 in the way. I'd like the mac braille implimentation to be more like 
>>> the iPhone, or at least have the choice.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:42 PM, Alex Hall >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Can you explain a bit more about the VoiceOver cursor and dots 7 and 8? 
 How does the use of dots 7 and 8 pose a problem, and what does the VO 
 cursor indicate or not indicate that you would like changed? I'm just not 
 following this one, and I want to be sure I explain it correctly in the 
 list I'm compiling. Thanks.
> On Oct 5, 2015, at 17:54, Devin Prater  > wrote:
> 
> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like 
> italics and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, 
> VoiceOver just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is 
> formatted any differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't 
> change the fact that braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and 
> the only way to know what truely is in the cursor is to have the annoying 
> dots 7 and 8 showing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T.  > wrote:
> 
>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" 
>> discussion of the braille support in OS X.
>> 
>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are the 
>> shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two 
>> reasons. One, to better use this personally, and two, to better 
>> communicate it to Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it 
>> will be more effective if we can stay on track.
>> 
>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS 
>> X so please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille 
>> support in OS X. Thanks.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
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Re: Bying a new computer.

[erik burggraaf]

Anders,

I think the 1.6 ghz processer is a quadcore which makes it more expensive and 
also as it's a laptop processer with four cores, it will have more l2 cash and 
be engineered to run a little cooler than the desktop processer in the mini.  
The 2.7 ghz processer in the mini is a duel core from what I remember.  As it 
has half the cores, it may run faster, but will carry less load and probably 
have less cache.  I suspect that given 8 gb of ram and solid state hard drives, 
you would have to take the processers out and do benchmark tests to notice the 
differences, but lets just say you should be very happy with your 2.7 ghz duel 
core, 8 gb ram, and 500 gb ssd for audio production.

Another thing that bulds out the price of the mba is that it now comes with 
retina display.  OK, the mba does not have an ethernet port, firewire adapter, 
and some other things which you would have to by thunderbolt connecters for if 
you want to expand them.  Mac mini does come with ethernet and HDMI which are 
the two you probably want most, but it doesn't come with a monitor or a 
keyboard.  THird parties do make some most excellent keyboards for less than 
half the price of the apple bluetooth keyboard, and a monitor?  pooie!  Hook up 
to a tv or something if you are desperate.

Unless you have a need for a mobile workstation to do field recordingm the mini 
seems like the best bet for what you want to do.  Besides, you can always pick 
up good field recording gear later if you want it.

Best,

Erik
Erik Burggraaf


> On Oct 6, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> Am about to spend money on a new Mac.
> I have been comparing macs on app store.
> First i really wanted a macbook Air but the i wanted my 11 inch with 8 gb ram 
> and 512 flash disk.
> And that will cost me more than i can afford.
> I don’t know the differences in the processor types.
> I mean is 2.7 much faster than 1.6 ghz.
> Ofcourse i could reduce the flash drive to 256 gigabyte but it feels very 
> very small.
> My mac mini has a harddisk capacity thats 500 gb.
> I will also use my mac for some hobby music production and i don’t know if 
> 8gb of ram is enough for that.
> I actually did a comparision with a mac mini 2.7 GzH with a ram amount of 16 
> gb and a fusion drive of 1 tb.
> Thats much  cheaper than the mac book air i put to gether on the app store 
> app.
> Maybe thats the way to go.
> But if some has some ideas i’d be more than happy to hear from you.
> Thanks.
> /A
> 
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Re: Bying a new computer.

[Sadam Ahmed]

Just a slight correction. 

MacBook Airs don't come with a retina display. 

You must be thinking of the  12-inch MacBook. 

Yours truly, 

Sadam Ahmed 

Sent from my iPhone 

-- 





Yours truly, 

Sadam Ahmed 

Sent from my iPhone 

-- 


> On 7 Oct 2015, at 6:47 AM, erik burggraaf  wrote:
> 
> Anders,
> 
> I think the 1.6 ghz processer is a quadcore which makes it more expensive and 
> also as it's a laptop processer with four cores, it will have more l2 cash 
> and be engineered to run a little cooler than the desktop processer in the 
> mini.  The 2.7 ghz processer in the mini is a duel core from what I remember. 
>  As it has half the cores, it may run faster, but will carry less load and 
> probably have less cache.  I suspect that given 8 gb of ram and solid state 
> hard drives, you would have to take the processers out and do benchmark tests 
> to notice the differences, but lets just say you should be very happy with 
> your 2.7 ghz duel core, 8 gb ram, and 500 gb ssd for audio production.
> 
> Another thing that bulds out the price of the mba is that it now comes with 
> retina display.  OK, the mba does not have an ethernet port, firewire 
> adapter, and some other things which you would have to by thunderbolt 
> connecters for if you want to expand them.  Mac mini does come with ethernet 
> and HDMI which are the two you probably want most, but it doesn't come with a 
> monitor or a keyboard.  THird parties do make some most excellent keyboards 
> for less than half the price of the apple bluetooth keyboard, and a monitor?  
> pooie!  Hook up to a tv or something if you are desperate.
> 
> Unless you have a need for a mobile workstation to do field recordingm the 
> mini seems like the best bet for what you want to do.  Besides, you can 
> always pick up good field recording gear later if you want it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Erik
> Erik Burggraaf
> 
> 
>> On Oct 6, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> Am about to spend money on a new Mac.
>> I have been comparing macs on app store.
>> First i really wanted a macbook Air but the i wanted my 11 inch with 8 gb 
>> ram and 512 flash disk.
>> And that will cost me more than i can afford.
>> I don’t know the differences in the processor types.
>> I mean is 2.7 much faster than 1.6 ghz.
>> Ofcourse i could reduce the flash drive to 256 gigabyte but it feels very 
>> very small.
>> My mac mini has a harddisk capacity thats 500 gb.
>> I will also use my mac for some hobby music production and i don’t know if 
>> 8gb of ram is enough for that.
>> I actually did a comparision with a mac mini 2.7 GzH with a ram amount of 16 
>> gb and a fusion drive of 1 tb.
>> Thats much  cheaper than the mac book air i put to gether on the app store 
>> app.
>> Maybe thats the way to go.
>> But if some has some ideas i’d be more than happy to hear from you.
>> Thanks.
>> /A
>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[E.T.]

Anders,
   This is why I started this discussion. Its agreed that braille 
support in OS X is lacking so there is no need to reiterate that.


   Instead, what is needed here are specifics so some of us can test 
and then post feedback to Apple. Its not enough to tell them "I have 
heard that this and that is broken." If you have examples of what you 
consider to be broken or missing or what have you, please share with us.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/6/2015 12:02 PM, Anders Holmberg wrote:

Hi!
Thats the problem i don’t like about the braille support on the mac.
Thats why i don’t use any braille display on the mac right now.
/A

On 06 Oct 2015, at 08:50, Krister Ekstrom > wrote:

Hi,
My problem is, i think, a typical european problem as i understand it.
I haven’t worked a lot with Braille, so if this problem is fixed then
all is well. As it is right now, braille repeats just what the speech
says rather like in the structured mode of Jaws. It would be nice if
the braille cursor could work independently of the speech so that i
could investigate typing errors, words i don’t know the spelling of
etc. The braille doesn’t necessarily have to repeat what the speech
just said if i don’t explicitly want this but then it should be an
option in the rotor or something to that effect.
These are my two gripes about the braille and it’s what i have heard
from some people here in Sweden as well. What i mean by that this is
an european problem is that it seems europeans want a more independent
braille while in the U.S this isn’t or mostly isn’t the case. If this
is all wrong i stand corrected and apologize to the list in advance.
/Krister


5 okt. 2015 kl. 23:54 skrev Devin Prater >:

My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like
italics and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is
/italicized/, VoiceOver just puts it in a new element, and doesn't
show that it is formatted any differently in braille. Another problem
is that we can't change the fact that braille shows more than the
voiceover cursor, and the only way to know what truely is in the
cursor is to have the annoying dots 7 and 8 showing.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T. > wrote:


  I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused"
discussion of the braille support in OS X.

  What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are
the shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for
two reasons. One, to better use this personally, and two, to better
communicate it to Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but
it will be more effective if we can stay on track.

  I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and
OS X so please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about
braille support in OS X. Thanks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

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How to change what is in the rota

[Agent086b]

Hello all,
how can I change what items a shown in the rota after pressing VO + U? I know 
how to do this with the trackpad, sometimes in Safari the trackpad is 
unreliable.
Thanks for any help.
Max.

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Re: How to change what is in the rota

[David Griffith]

Simply use left or right cursor keys after pressing VO U.

David Griffith
> On 6 Oct 2015, at 22:04, Agent086b  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> how can I change what items a shown in the rota after pressing VO + U? I know 
> how to do this with the trackpad, sometimes in Safari the trackpad is 
> unreliable.
> Thanks for any help.
> Max.
> 
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Re: Bying a new computer.

[Alex Hall]

8GB of ram is more than enough, I imagine, especially on a device with a 
solid-state drive. A Mini is a fine machine, but remember that it's not 
portable and won't include a screen, keyboard, trackpad, or microphone.
> On Oct 6, 2015, at 15:01, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> Am about to spend money on a new Mac.
> I have been comparing macs on app store.
> First i really wanted a macbook Air but the i wanted my 11 inch with 8 gb ram 
> and 512 flash disk.
> And that will cost me more than i can afford.
> I don’t know the differences in the processor types.
> I mean is 2.7 much faster than 1.6 ghz.
> Ofcourse i could reduce the flash drive to 256 gigabyte but it feels very 
> very small.
> My mac mini has a harddisk capacity thats 500 gb.
> I will also use my mac for some hobby music production and i don’t know if 
> 8gb of ram is enough for that.
> I actually did a comparision with a mac mini 2.7 GzH with a ram amount of 16 
> gb and a fusion drive of 1 tb.
> Thats much  cheaper than the mac book air i put to gether on the app store 
> app.
> Maybe thats the way to go.
> But if some has some ideas i’d be more than happy to hear from you.
> Thanks.
> /A
> 
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Have a great day,
Alex Hall
mehg...@icloud.com

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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Scott Granados]

Hey Scott, thanks for posting this resource.  I’m going to try to work with 
braille again.  Might be worth a shot. I keep hearing about braille TTY as well 
which might be worth a shot in a VM.

Thanks for the podcast pointer.

> On Oct 6, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Scott Davert  wrote:
> 
> Hi Eileen.
> Many of the iOS commands you have come to know will work great on OSX.
> here's a podcast which may also help you get started.
> http://applevis.com/podcast/episodes/using-braille-displays-mac
> 
> Scott
> 
> On 10/6/15, eileen.misr...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> As I use the app MBraille to compose this post, I'm disheartened to even
>> attempt to use my Apex with my MacBook Air. Braille is such a part of my
>> daily life in so many ways, except on my Mac. Are there basic braille
>> command keystrokes for VO to look at before embarking on this journey?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Eileen
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:26 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is exactly the kind of feedback we need. So far, the lack of
>>> independent cursor tracking is a major complaint.
>>> 
>>> In respect to BRLTTY, I think we should leave that and just focus on
>>> encouraging Apple to improve what is already in place at least in this
>>> thread.
>>> 
>>> So far we have the lack of independent cursor tracking and little or no
>>> formatting support.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
 On 10/6/2015 6:00 AM, Blee Blat wrote:
 Yes, that's the biggest problem is no independent braille cursor and not
 enough customizations.  Also that would fix the cursor routing issues as
 well.
 
>>> 
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Re: Updating a brailliant display if you don't have a PC

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Out of curiosity, would a VM do it and which OS is the minimum required?  I am 
quite interested in a Brailliant display myself.

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Re: Updating a brailliant display if you don't have a PC

[Matthew Dierckens]

When I used a VM, I was able to update my Brailliant display.
I had both a windows XP VM and a windows 7, and both updated the display fine.

God bless.
Matthew Dierckens
Certified Assistive Technology Specialist
Macintosh, Windows and IOS  Trainer
U.S. number: 573-401-1018
Personal Email: matt.dierck...@me.com

> On Oct 6, 2015, at 20:03, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Out of curiosity, would a VM do it and which OS is the minimum required?  I 
> am quite interested in a Brailliant display myself.
> 
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A Quick Tip for Those Using The Native El Capitan Mail Application, Getting VO to Announce The Total Number of Messages in a Particular Mailbox

[M. Taylor]

Hello,

You know, sometimes, it's helpful to return to the basics.  

As some of you may know, I use the native OS X El Capitan Mail application
via Standard view, complete with the Preview pane being displayed.  

Since using El Capitan, I have since wanted to be able to have VoiceOver not
only announce how many unread messages exist in a particular mailbox but to
also announce the total number of messages in that mailbox.  

Simply put, using the key combo of VO+F2 causes this information to be
announced.

While I'm certain most on this list new the basic purpose of this command,
apparently, I had forgotten it (smile).  

Mark

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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Of course reading with dots 7 and/or 8 is harder, but if well implemented 
that’s actually a good thing; for example, BRLTTY uses those dots to indicate 
capitalisation and attribute, respectively, with both for a system cursor (one 
cell).  OS X on the other hand has exactly one caret style, a blinking dot 8, 
and exactly one cursor, both 7 and 8, which covers the entire cursor.  Very, 
very, very annoying, and it just maddens me to turn it off and end up with no 
indicator at all.

Braille users use braille in different ways.  I think supporting Apple’s 
current mode, as well as a full-screen mode, would be acceptable to me, as 
would a “Speech box” mode as seen in for example Supernova and in concept very 
similar to iOS.  Bonus points for a “Literary” braille mode, again as seen in 
Supernova, for the reading of beautiful text using correct formatting and 
indentation conventions of braille literature.  Different strokes for different 
folks and all that.  But right now, you only have the one mode that always 
moves the VO cursor, and it doesn’t work all that well with speech turned on 
I’m afraid.

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Re: 10.11 and braille

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

There are quite a number of shortcomings, actually, but I’m going to 
concentrate on three which are fundamental and very obvious if you are a 
habitual braille user on other platforms.  In general my bar for braille 
support is: you can use it with speech off, or you don’t have braille support.  
Simple as.  All of these are fixed in iOS, to varying degrees.

1.  Cursor inconsistency.  This one has been pounded to death but braille is 
rendered useless by the fact that it represents whatever the VO cursor is 
covering, and then in a confusing way because the braille line is being used in 
a maximally efficient manner, so that depending on how you pan, you may see the 
left or right edge, and then adjacent to other objects, or possibly even a 
completely unexpected part of the screen because your VO focus has not followed 
you to exactly where you needed to be (while editing text, for example).  
Contrast with iOS, where you are shown exactly what has focus and nothing else. 
 Ironically I think Apple’s intensions here were obviously to make braille more 
usable and efficient; I’d be perfectly happy with this mode of operation, if it 
behaved like iOS, and like iOS it had enough commands to get us to other parts 
of the system.  As others have mentioned, even when these commands work, they 
sadly don’t always deliver very good feedback on the display.  About the only 
thing they got right, in fact, was access to menus, which work wonderfully.

2.  Broken translation with symbols.  Especially noticeable when an email 
address is displayed, or a Twitter handle; you’ll see just the symbol, and the 
rest of the word is cut off.  Best hope your text doesn’t contain any of those.

3.  Input capture.  Input and translation are totally messed up; half the time 
my braille line is showing the flashing cursor, as though VO is expecting a 
prompt to be responded to.  It looks like this is because every time an input 
control gets focused, VO goes into the input mode, but then forgets to come out 
of it again.  So almost immediately, I will have to stop reading to move the 
focus using the keyboard, before I can press space on the display and get VO to 
recognise that it’s not editing anymore.  This is new, in fact—before Yosemite, 
you simply needed the keyboard for input.

That will do for starters.  You don’t want my opinion on the way VO converts 
pluralised acronyms (like CDs) into CD’s.  Or how all formatting and horizontal 
or vertical layout is lost.  Or how strange character symbols appear to 
represent special characters or even double white space.  Or how every time a 
message is displayed, you have to wait before you can pan past it, and every 
time you try, you extend the timeout.  GRR!  Somebody at Apple needs a 
whack over the head with a golden mallet for that day’s work.

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Re: Updating a brailliant display if you don't have a PC

[Sadam Ahmed]

Hello, 

I have one of these displays. 

A Windows PC is definitely required to update the firmware. 

Yours truly, 

Sadam Ahmed 

Sent from my iPhone 

-- 



> On 6 Oct 2015, at 3:39 PM, Gabe Griffith  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I think she was talking about the human were brilliant. That display is only 
> able to be updated through a Windows PC. There is no tool for updating it 
> through a USB stick or a Mac.
> Gabe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> Not at all.
>> You just copyh the zipped update file to a usb stick.
>> Plug it into your vario ultra and then you should press a key combination 
>> which i now lost out of my very small brain.
>> /A
>>> On 05 Oct 2015, at 03:57, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The subject line says it all. Is this possible? Must you have a PC in order 
>>> to update this display?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
My whish is to have some sort of braille cursor that can navigate independently 
from the voiceover cursor.
This should be navigated with the braille display.
/A
> On 05 Oct 2015, at 23:54, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like italics 
> and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, VoiceOver 
> just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is formatted any 
> differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't change the fact that 
> braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and the only way to know what 
> truely is in the cursor is to have the annoying dots 7 and 8 showing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T.  > wrote:
> 
>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" discussion 
>> of the braille support in OS X.
>> 
>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are the 
>> shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two reasons. 
>> One, to better use this personally, and two, to better communicate it to 
>> Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it will be more effective 
>> if we can stay on track.
>> 
>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS X so 
>> please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille support in 
>> OS X. Thanks.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Blee Blat]

Yes, that's the biggest problem is no independent braille cursor and not enough 
customizations.  Also that would fix the cursor routing issues as well.

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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Sadam Ahmed]

Hi Krister and all, 

Another thing I don’t like about braille support in OS X is not being able to 
separate the braille curser from the VoiceOver curser. 

In Windows one can view the braille curser independently of the JAWS curser or 
NVDA. 

With VoiceOver it moves in one big chunk. 

Yours truly, 

Sadam Ahmed 

Bachelor of Business Information Systems 

RMIT University 

Blog: 

www.sadamahmed.com 

Sent from my 13-inch MacBook Pro 




> On 6 Oct 2015, at 6:25 pm, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
> 
> maybe an alternative for Apple would be to compile the Brltty kit into VO and 
> use it instead of their own braille? At least that would be an option if 
> Apple feels they aren’t that good at Braille.
> /Krister
> 
>> 6 okt. 2015 kl. 08:04 skrev Devin Prater :
>> 
>> Can BRLTTY be compiled for the mac?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 11:58 PM, Blee Blat  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't find dots 7 and 8 hard to read with text I just don't understand 
>>> why I would need to know the position of the VoiceOver  cursor without 
>>> knowing the positions of the system cursor. I think they should have 
>>> separate braille and speech cursors as well as the system cursor. The user 
>>> should be able to select which dot patterns represent what. This needs to 
>>> be extremely customizable because the user is going to want to read braille 
>>> differently depending on display size and reading ability and other things. 
>>> Also something like BRLTTY's skipping of blank windows and sliding windows 
>>> features would be lovely for small displays. BRLTTY will optionally remove 
>>> white space and other screen areas that are just blank  and then try to 
>>> fill as much of the display with text as it possibly can. This is good for 
>>> when you're just reading a document like a book where you don't need to 
>>> care about indentation or other formatting. You can toggle all this stuff 
>>> on and off as needed.  I hope that made at least some sense, but if not 
>>> feel free to ask more questions.
>>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Yes but its a bit tricky.
I gave up on it as i didn’t get much help.
/A
> On 06 Oct 2015, at 08:04, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> Can BRLTTY be compiled for the mac?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 11:58 PM, Blee Blat  wrote:
>> 
>> I don't find dots 7 and 8 hard to read with text I just don't understand why 
>> I would need to know the position of the VoiceOver  cursor without knowing 
>> the positions of the system cursor. I think they should have separate 
>> braille and speech cursors as well as the system cursor. The user should be 
>> able to select which dot patterns represent what. This needs to be extremely 
>> customizable because the user is going to want to read braille differently 
>> depending on display size and reading ability and other things. Also 
>> something like BRLTTY's skipping of blank windows and sliding windows 
>> features would be lovely for small displays. BRLTTY will optionally remove 
>> white space and other screen areas that are just blank  and then try to fill 
>> as much of the display with text as it possibly can. This is good for when 
>> you're just reading a document like a book where you don't need to care 
>> about indentation or other formatting. You can toggle all this stuff on and 
>> off as needed.  I hope that made at least some sense, but if not feel free 
>> to ask more questions.
>> 
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Re: Braille Support in OS X

[Krister Ekstrom]

Anders, that’s part of being able to navigate braille independently as i was 
talking about earlier in this thread.
/Krister

> 6 okt. 2015 kl. 13:49 skrev Anders Holmberg :
> 
> Hi!
> My whish is to have some sort of braille cursor that can navigate 
> independently from the voiceover cursor.
> This should be navigated with the braille display.
> /A
>> On 05 Oct 2015, at 23:54, Devin Prater > > wrote:
>> 
>> My biggest problem is that I cannot read formatting information, like 
>> italics and bold. For example, on a webpage, if something is italicized, 
>> VoiceOver just puts it in a new element, and doesn't show that it is 
>> formatted any differently in braille. Another problem is that we can't 
>> change the fact that braille shows more than the voiceover cursor, and the 
>> only way to know what truely is in the cursor is to have the annoying dots 7 
>> and 8 showing.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 4:49 PM, E.T. > > wrote:
>> 
>>>   I am posting a new thread in the hopes of starting a "focused" discussion 
>>> of the braille support in OS X.
>>> 
>>>   What I mean by "focused"  is this. What exactly, specifically, are the 
>>> shortcomings of OS X's braille support. I need to know this for two 
>>> reasons. One, to better use this personally, and two, to better communicate 
>>> it to Apple. Many of you have your gripes with this but it will be more 
>>> effective if we can stay on track.
>>> 
>>>   I am not as proficient as I would like to be with both braille and OS X 
>>> so please lets not deviate from the mission. This is about braille support 
>>> in OS X. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
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Re: How do you open an attachment?

[Marie Lyons]

I did something intelligent without realizing it.  I saved the attachment as a 
document and there it was, on the desktop!

Marie
> On Oct 2, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Jamie Pauls  wrote:
> 
> Let's assume that the attachment you want to open is a word document. Here is 
> what I do. One. Open the message using the return key. Two. Interact with the 
> text in the message.  Three. Navigate to the image of the attached document 
> using the arrow keys. Four. Press VO space to open a menu of options. 
> Finally, use VO plus the down arrow key to move to the menu item that says 
> open attachment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 2, 2015, at 12:42 AM, Dionipher Presas Herrera  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> you should download the attachment first. then go to your download folder.
>>> On 02 Oct 2015, at 4:25 AM, Marie Lyons  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve gone through the menu in mail on myIMAC.  I can’t find a selection for 
>>> opening an attachment.  I have also checked the v/o help menu but don’t 
>>> find anything.  Appreciate the help.
>>> 
>>> Marie
>>> 
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