Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[David Chittenden]

I have an Android Nexus 9, a Kindle Fire (modified Android), and a Acer Google 
ChromeBook. Also, I have played with a Samsung 7 Edge. Finally, I have played 
with a BrailleNote Touch.

Only the Samsung Galacxy 7 Edge and the BrailleNote Touch have functional 
alternatives to the angle gestures which are extremely difficult for 
congenitally blind (those who have never had functional vision). The angle 
gestures require quick, precise movement with solid right angles. This 
preciseness and speed is extremely difficult for many (including myself) who 
have never trained to move their fingers / drawn visually. Those who have had 
functional vision and learned to print / write with a pen/pencil do not usually 
have difficulties with these commands. For me, until Google changes these angle 
commands in Android TalkBack to multi-finger taps, lines, or arcs, Apple will 
continue to be my accessibility choice for my primary equipment.

Samsung and HumanWare have changed out the angle gestures. However, HumanWare 
is charging several thousand dollars for the BrailleNote Touch, which is using 
technology, and Android, of two years ago.

Samsung, on the other hand, has locked down the gestures so one cannot 
customise them, has a reputation for not upgrading the Android firmware / OS in 
their phones after a newer model is released, and their latest Note 7s became a 
very hot commodity.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/12/2016, at 16:32, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Efficient email has always been one thing that Apple had over android for me. 
> This breaks it.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:23 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, I always read the messages I open using the two-finger flick up because 
>> it automatically reads just the email message. I am afraid Apple is bringing 
>> mail behaviour inline with the iPad for consistency. Personally, I would 
>> rather see them bring the iPad inline with the iPhone. I guess it means I 
>> will need to retrain my mail reading habits.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 7/12/2016, at 16:17, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, that's what I always did.  Somehow it seemed more intuitive.  But if 
>>> the Two finger flick up worked as Mary said it use to, that would be a nice 
>>> easy way to read a message.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 U gave ti adnut U was used ti flicking over to the start of the text and 
 then two finger flicking down to read from there.  I guess this is just a 
 case of different usage styles.  I can confirm Mary’s observations though 
 and put an entry in the feedback tool.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't 
> be a deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when 
> reading mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed. 
>  At the point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear 
> all that stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
> Cheers,
> Donna 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
>> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
>> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
>> whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
>> field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
>> "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
>> you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
>> 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
>> Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a 
>> righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
>> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed 
>> it of course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
>>> agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see 
>>> if it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list 
>>> and I’ll post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>>> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[David Chittenden]

My understanding is there is at least one blind programmer on the accessibility 
team. And, the accessibility team has significant power in Apple.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/12/2016, at 16:35, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> I really wonder if there are any actual voiceover users on the team that 
> makes these changes. No voiceover user in his or her right mind would have 
> agreed with the change on the iPad or the iPhone. It just adds too much extra 
> stuff to the reading of every single message totally not necessary.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be 
>> a deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when 
>> reading mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  
>> At the point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all 
>> that stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have 
>>> opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole 
>>> lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the 
>>> from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It 
>>> does all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. 
>>> iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone 
>>> has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If 
>>> you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't 
>>> say where.
>>> Mary
>>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
>>> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
>>> of course.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
 agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
 it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll 
 post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
> hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
> it. I don't know what else to do.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>> 
>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
>> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
>> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
>> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
>> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
>> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Without H2O there is no life!
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
 Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
 same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six 
 on an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
 does me. And this other user.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
> of the 10.2 train.
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 

Re: iPhone 7/7+

[E.T.]

   Not overly concerned but enough to take some steps that are within 
my reach. Solar power would be an option except for my location. I do 
have some gel batteries which I should check soon.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 8:31 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

If you’re that concerned about disasters you might look in to a solar power 
source, they come at all price points so you can recharge that battery and or 
run other items.  There are some solutions that would let you charge a laptop 
and or phone easily which would give you more operational time.  Also remember, 
hopefully your local cell sites have generator backup.


On 12/6/16, 11:12 PM, "E.T."  wrote:

Thanks David and Scott. I now see that the better battery life is
compelling for anther reason. Should we experience a major event
courtesy Mother Nature, I could get by while waiting for things to
settle down.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 7:02 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
> I find the larger battery to be extremely compelling. I use GPS fairly 
regularly. In my 6+, I get significantly more battery life than my 7. 
Unfortunately, there were no 7+ available when I needed to get my new iPhone, and 
because I have two phone numbers now, I could not wait for the 7+ upgrade to be 
available. Everything else is similar between the two phones. My fiancé has the 
7+, and even the stereo separation is not that much more pronounced in the larger 
phone. Next year, I will shift back to the + model. The additional battery life is 
that important for me.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7/12/2016, at 15:47, E.T.  wrote:
>>
>>   Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having 
looked at the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.
>>
>>   Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.
>>
>>   Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors 
compelling enough to push you to the plus?
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

David, thanks for the clarification.  I can give it the old 3 finger tap, I 
don’t mind conforming as long as I get the function I want.  I did however 
write a response based on Mary’s point since it seemed like a sudden change.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:19 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Apple changed this in iOS 10. It is now necessary to perform a three-finger 
> single-tap to have VO read the preview lines for the message. Again, this is 
> a specific change instituted by Apple, not a bug. If you prefer the previous 
> way, send Apple a message telling them.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 7/12/2016, at 16:12, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
>> While we’re on this, one thing that went away that I did like in previous 
>> versions is pulling up a subject by swiping would read the first few lines 
>> of the content so you could see if you wanted to open the mail or not.  Like 
>> in OS X if you select a topic it reads part of the message the iPhone used 
>> to do this, it no longer does since IOS 10.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. 
>>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the 
>>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up 
>>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down 
>>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two 
>>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every 
>>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line 
>>> where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the 
>>> crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad 
>>> one.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese >> > wrote:
>>> 
I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
 read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads 
 everything? 
 
 
 Take Care
 
 John D. Panarese
 Director
 Mac for the Blind
 Tel, (631) 724-4479
 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
 Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
 
 APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
 
 AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
 
 MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
 
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I 
> have been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I 
> would say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have 
> reported it as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound 
> the problem. And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it 
> possible to just read the message text in this specialized case, would 
> you regressed to having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit 
> all. I can't believe it works for most people to have to read the entire 
> screen when all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture, 
> without having to find the exact place on the screen from which you must 
> start reading down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it 
> just fine for several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now 
> it's broken and they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers 
> you encounter this will report it as a bug.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  > wrote:
> 
>> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
>> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
>> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
>> 
>> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
>> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
>> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
>> have opened a message. It now behaves like 

Re: iPhone 7/7+

[Scott Granados]

If you’re that concerned about disasters you might look in to a solar power 
source, they come at all price points so you can recharge that battery and or 
run other items.  There are some solutions that would let you charge a laptop 
and or phone easily which would give you more operational time.  Also remember, 
hopefully your local cell sites have generator backup.


On 12/6/16, 11:12 PM, "E.T."  wrote:

Thanks David and Scott. I now see that the better battery life is 
compelling for anther reason. Should we experience a major event 
courtesy Mother Nature, I could get by while waiting for things to 
settle down.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 7:02 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
> I find the larger battery to be extremely compelling. I use GPS fairly 
regularly. In my 6+, I get significantly more battery life than my 7. 
Unfortunately, there were no 7+ available when I needed to get my new iPhone, 
and because I have two phone numbers now, I could not wait for the 7+ upgrade 
to be available. Everything else is similar between the two phones. My fiancé 
has the 7+, and even the stereo separation is not that much more pronounced in 
the larger phone. Next year, I will shift back to the + model. The additional 
battery life is that important for me.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7/12/2016, at 15:47, E.T.  wrote:
>>
>>   Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having 
looked at the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.
>>
>>   Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.
>>
>>   Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors 
compelling enough to push you to the plus?
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
Visionaries list.
>>
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>>
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Re: iPhone 7/7+

[E.T.]

   Thanks David and Scott. I now see that the better battery life is 
compelling for anther reason. Should we experience a major event 
courtesy Mother Nature, I could get by while waiting for things to 
settle down.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 7:02 PM, David Chittenden wrote:

I find the larger battery to be extremely compelling. I use GPS fairly 
regularly. In my 6+, I get significantly more battery life than my 7. 
Unfortunately, there were no 7+ available when I needed to get my new iPhone, 
and because I have two phone numbers now, I could not wait for the 7+ upgrade 
to be available. Everything else is similar between the two phones. My fiancé 
has the 7+, and even the stereo separation is not that much more pronounced in 
the larger phone. Next year, I will shift back to the + model. The additional 
battery life is that important for me.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +61 488 988 936
Sent from my iPhone


On 7/12/2016, at 15:47, E.T.  wrote:

  Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having looked at 
the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.

  Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.

  Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors compelling 
enough to push you to the plus?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

100% agree with Jonathan, and actually, for the note, this isn't the major bug 
I found, though again, I can't state what that bug is. It's not so severe it 
renders things uselss, but it is a bit annoying.

Chris.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jonathan Cohn 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 5:35 PM
  Subject: Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 
10.2 when it comes out


  I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I would 
have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from beginning and two 
finger flick down from the current location. 


  I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence this 
is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 


  Best Wishes,


  Jonathan Cohn 


  On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:

Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened a 
message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of extra 
stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from field, but 
time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does all that 
before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have been doing 
this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good until 
somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as much email 
as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
Mary
PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
course.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
wrote:
>
> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post it 
at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is a 
problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
what else to do.
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
wrote:
>>>
>>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>>>
>>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I 
think it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also 
consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release 
publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have 
confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in as 
many forums as possible so that suitable notification and public reaction to 
problems can be generated.
>>>
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:

 Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its 
off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Without H2O there is no life!
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com

> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an 
iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. And 
this other user.
> Mary
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados 
 wrote:
>>
>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
of the 10.2 train.
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>>
>>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to 
upgrade to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. 
Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
fixed.
>>> Mary
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Who's John? I thought Mark and Cara were the mods of the list.
- Original Message - 
From: "Mary Otten" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 
10.2 when it comes out



Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.

Mary
PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
course.



Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
wrote:


Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll 
post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.



On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
it. I don't know what else to do.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
wrote:


I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted. 
Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
and public reaction to problems can be generated.



On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:

Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six 
on an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
does me. And this other user.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
wrote:


I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
of the 10.2 train.




On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to 
upgrade to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I 
suppose were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of 
these lists, I won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about 
the problem if it doesn't get fixed.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

OK Sandy, here's why I mentioned it, and thanks for not giving me any benefit 
of any doubt. A lot of people go out and immediately upgrade when they see a 
new release. They do it before they see anybody's reporting on anything. Maybe 
you are one of those people or not. Point being, this is about to come out as a 
final release this month. I thought I was doing people a favor by telling them 
to wait and see and hear about it after it came out. So thanks a lot for 
understanding.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse  wrote:
> 
> Okay, is it just me who is like wh? when i see stuff like this, i
> mean on the one hand mary tells us that there is a problem, but on the
> other hand she don’t?
> i will be honest i think it is the most childish mail i have seen for
> weeks. If you can’t talk about it , maybe keeping quiet is the better
> idea :)
> 
>> On 12/6/16, John Panarese  wrote:
>>   OK. Understood. It sounds to me that it’s broken. If they changed it,
>> they need to be told it was an undesired change.
>> 
>> 
>> Take Care
>> 
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>> 
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>> 
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>> 
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say.
>>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the
>>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up
>>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down
>>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two
>>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every
>>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact
>>> line where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for
>>> the crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a
>>> bad one.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese >> > wrote:
>>> 
   I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down
 read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads
 everything?
 
 
 Take Care
 
 John D. Panarese
 Director
 Mac for the Blind
 Tel, (631) 724-4479
 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
 Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
 
 APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
 
 AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
 
 MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
 
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I
> have been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS,
> I would say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have
> reported it as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound
> the problem. And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it
> possible to just read the message text in this specialized case, would
> you regressed to having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit
> all. I can't believe it works for most people to have to read the entire
> screen when all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture,
> without having to find the exact place on the screen from which you must
> start reading down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it
> just fine for several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now
> it's broken and they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers
> you encounter this will report it as a bug.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  > wrote:
> 
>> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I
>> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from
>> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location.
>> 
>> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence
>> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior?
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

I like that as well, Scott. At least what you have to do now is just put three 
fingers on the screen. It's an extra motion, but it's easy. Unlike searching 
around among all the crap to find the actual start of the text message in an 
open email. Still, I think it should be the other way. It's been that way since 
the very start of OS X on both devices. Where is this started out OK on the 
iPhone got screwed up on the iPad and now is screwed up on the iPhone.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> While we’re on this, one thing that went away that I did like in previous 
> versions is pulling up a subject by swiping would read the first few lines of 
> the content so you could see if you wanted to open the mail or not.  Like in 
> OS X if you select a topic it reads part of the message the iPhone used to do 
> this, it no longer does since IOS 10.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. 
>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the 
>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up 
>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down 
>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two 
>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every 
>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line 
>> where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the 
>> crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
>>> 
>>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
>>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads 
>>> everything? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
 been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
 say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
 as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. 
 And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just 
 read the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to 
 having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't 
 believe it works for most people to have to read the entire screen when 
 all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having 
 to find the exact place on the screen from which you must start reading 
 down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it just fine for 
 several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now it's broken and 
 they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this 
 will report it as a bug.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
> 
> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
>> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
>> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
>> whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
>> field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
>> "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
>> you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
>> 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
>> Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a 
>> righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

I really wonder if there are any actual voiceover users on the team that makes 
these changes. No voiceover user in his or her right mind would have agreed 
with the change on the iPad or the iPhone. It just adds too much extra stuff to 
the reading of every single message totally not necessary.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be a 
> deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when reading 
> mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  At the 
> point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all that 
> stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
> Cheers,
> Donna 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree. 
>>>  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
 lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
 discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there 
 is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what 
 the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't 
 know what else to do.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
>>> does me. And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
 of the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
> to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
> were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, 
> I won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem 
> if it doesn't get fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

Efficient email has always been one thing that Apple had over android for me. 
This breaks it.
Mary
  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:23 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Yes, I always read the messages I open using the two-finger flick up because 
> it automatically reads just the email message. I am afraid Apple is bringing 
> mail behaviour inline with the iPad for consistency. Personally, I would 
> rather see them bring the iPad inline with the iPhone. I guess it means I 
> will need to retrain my mail reading habits.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 7/12/2016, at 16:17, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah, that's what I always did.  Somehow it seemed more intuitive.  But if 
>> the Two finger flick up worked as Mary said it use to, that would be a nice 
>> easy way to read a message.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> U gave ti adnut U was used ti flicking over to the start of the text and 
>>> then two finger flicking down to read from there.  I guess this is just a 
>>> case of different usage styles.  I can confirm Mary’s observations though 
>>> and put an entry in the feedback tool.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
 
 Hi Mary,
 
 Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't 
 be a deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when 
 reading mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  
 At the point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear 
 all that stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
 Cheers,
 Donna 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
> whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
> field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
> "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
> you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
> 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
> Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous 
> pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed 
> it of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
>> agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
>> it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and 
>> I’ll post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of 
>>> the lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not 
>>> want such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say 
>>> that there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes 
>>> out, hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can 
>>> live with it. I don't know what else to do.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
 
 When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I 
 think it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I 
 actually called Apple and was told that discussions like these were 
 permitted.  Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date 
 feature and change release publicly for each beta release meaning 
 there is no legal concern and I have confirmation right from the 
 horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in as many forums as 
 possible so that suitable notification and public reaction to problems 
 can be generated.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its 
> off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[David Chittenden]

Yes, I always read the messages I open using the two-finger flick up because it 
automatically reads just the email message. I am afraid Apple is bringing mail 
behaviour inline with the iPad for consistency. Personally, I would rather see 
them bring the iPad inline with the iPhone. I guess it means I will need to 
retrain my mail reading habits.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +61 488 988 936
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/12/2016, at 16:17, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, that's what I always did.  Somehow it seemed more intuitive.  But if 
> the Two finger flick up worked as Mary said it use to, that would be a nice 
> easy way to read a message.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> U gave ti adnut U was used ti flicking over to the start of the text and 
>> then two finger flicking down to read from there.  I guess this is just a 
>> case of different usage styles.  I can confirm Mary’s observations though 
>> and put an entry in the feedback tool.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mary,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be 
>>> a deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when 
>>> reading mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  
>>> At the point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all 
>>> that stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
 taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
 have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
 whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
 field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
 "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
 you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
 Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous 
 pain in the eye won't say where.
 Mary
 PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
 know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
 of course.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
> agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
> it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and 
> I’ll post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
>> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
>> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
>> hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
>> it. I don't know what else to do.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>>> 
>>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I 
>>> think it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I 
>>> actually called Apple and was told that discussions like these were 
>>> permitted.  Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date 
>>> feature and change release publicly for each beta release meaning there 
>>> is no legal concern and I have confirmation right from the horses 
>>> mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in as many forums as possible so 
>>> that suitable notification and public reaction to problems can be 
>>> generated.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its 
 off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Without H2O there is no life!
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[David Chittenden]

Scott,

Apple changed this in iOS 10. It is now necessary to perform a three-finger 
single-tap to have VO read the preview lines for the message. Again, this is a 
specific change instituted by Apple, not a bug. If you prefer the previous way, 
send Apple a message telling them.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +61 488 988 936
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/12/2016, at 16:12, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> While we’re on this, one thing that went away that I did like in previous 
> versions is pulling up a subject by swiping would read the first few lines of 
> the content so you could see if you wanted to open the mail or not.  Like in 
> OS X if you select a topic it reads part of the message the iPhone used to do 
> this, it no longer does since IOS 10.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. 
>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the 
>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up 
>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down 
>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two 
>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every 
>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line 
>> where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the 
>> crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
>>> 
>>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
>>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads 
>>> everything? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
 been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
 say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
 as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. 
 And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just 
 read the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to 
 having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't 
 believe it works for most people to have to read the entire screen when 
 all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having 
 to find the exact place on the screen from which you must start reading 
 down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it just fine for 
 several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now it's broken and 
 they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this 
 will report it as a bug.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
> 
> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
>> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
>> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
>> whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
>> field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
>> "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
>> you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
>> 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
>> Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a 
>> righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
>> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed 
>> it of 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Donna Goodin]

Yeah, that's what I always did.  Somehow it seemed more intuitive.  But if the 
Two finger flick up worked as Mary said it use to, that would be a nice easy 
way to read a message.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> U gave ti adnut U was used ti flicking over to the start of the text and then 
> two finger flicking down to read from there.  I guess this is just a case of 
> different usage styles.  I can confirm Mary’s observations though and put an 
> entry in the feedback tool.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be 
>> a deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when 
>> reading mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  
>> At the point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all 
>> that stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have 
>>> opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole 
>>> lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the 
>>> from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It 
>>> does all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. 
>>> iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone 
>>> has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If 
>>> you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't 
>>> say where.
>>> Mary
>>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
>>> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
>>> of course.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
 agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
 it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll 
 post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
> hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
> it. I don't know what else to do.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>> 
>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
>> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
>> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
>> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
>> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
>> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Without H2O there is no life!
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
 Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
 same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six 
 on an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
 does me. And this other user.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
> of the 10.2 train.
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to 
>> upgrade to 10.2 if you are not 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

U gave ti adnut U was used ti flicking over to the start of the text and then 
two finger flicking down to read from there.  I guess this is just a case of 
different usage styles.  I can confirm Mary’s observations though and put an 
entry in the feedback tool.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be a 
> deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when reading 
> mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  At the 
> point that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all that 
> stuff, it's just a waste of time and noise.
> Cheers,
> Donna 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree. 
>>>  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
 lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
 discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there 
 is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what 
 the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't 
 know what else to do.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
>>> does me. And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
 of the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
> to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
> were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, 
> I won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem 
> if it doesn't get fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> --
> The following information is important for 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

While we’re on this, one thing that went away that I did like in previous 
versions is pulling up a subject by swiping would read the first few lines of 
the content so you could see if you wanted to open the mail or not.  Like in OS 
X if you select a topic it reads part of the message the iPhone used to do 
this, it no longer does since IOS 10.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. But 
> in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the message 
> text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up read the 
> same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down with start 
> from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two jesters do the 
> same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every time you want to 
> read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line where you want to 
> begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the crappy sentence 
> structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  > wrote:
> 
>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads everything? 
>> 
>> 
>> Take Care
>> 
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
>> 
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>> 
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>> 
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
>>> been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
>>> say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
>>> as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. And 
>>> why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just read 
>>> the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to having a 
>>> one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't believe it works 
>>> for most people to have to read the entire screen when all you want is the 
>>> message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having to find the exact 
>>> place on the screen from which you must start reading down. It doesn't work 
>>> for me. And they've been doing it just fine for several years now. So, I 
>>> would say it was expected and now it's broken and they need to fix it. I 
>>> sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this will report it as a bug.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn >> > wrote:
>>> 
 I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
 would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
 beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
 
 I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
 this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
 
 Best Wishes,
 
 Jonathan Cohn 
 
 On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten > wrote:
 Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
 taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
 have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
 whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
 field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
 "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
 you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
 Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous 
 pain in the eye won't say where.
 Mary
 PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
 know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
 of course.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
 >
 > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
 > agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
 > it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

Kawal big Harty +1.

If Redmondpie discusses the features openly in front of their hundreds of 
thousands of users I suspect a few of us blind folk don’t represent a problem 
discussing the same content.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> I'm so glad we were told what the problem was or this thread would have been 
> pointless.  If Apple say things can be discussed in a public beta then for 
> heaven's sake just put it on this list as you are not breaking any rules and 
> as it's not illegal to do it as Apple say then for heaven's sake, there 
> should be no issue for the moderators to let us have a full frank discussion.
> 
> Well if anyone wants to take issue, it's welcome as I don't mind having a 
> challenging discussion and I'll be a rebel, damn with the consequences!
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Dec 2016, at 22:25, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree. 
>>>  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
 lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
 discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there 
 is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what 
 the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't 
 know what else to do.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
>>> does me. And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
 of the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
> to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
> were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, 
> I won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem 
> if it doesn't get fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

I can confirm this behavior, I duplicated it on my 7+ I just didn’t see it as a 
problem.  I will however join in reporting it to Apple accessibility straight 
away.  Mary, did you open a bug ID on the feedback tool, I’ll report there as 
well.


> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have 
> been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good 
> until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as 
> much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
> course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  
>> I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
>>> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is 
>>> a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
>>> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
>>> what else to do.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
 
 When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
 it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
 called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
 Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
 release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
 and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
 this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
 and public reaction to problems can be generated.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does 
>> me. And this other user.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
>>> the 10.2 train.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
 to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
 were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I 
 won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if 
 it doesn't get fixed.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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 The archives for 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Donna Goodin]

Hi Mary,

Thanks for cluing us in.  While I won't be crazy about that, It wouldn't be a 
deal-breaker for me, as I don't use that gesture all that often when reading 
mail.  That said, I do hope that Apple can get the problem fixed.  At the point 
that you open a message, there's certainly no need to hear all that stuff, it's 
just a waste of time and noise.
Cheers,
Donna 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have 
> been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good 
> until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as 
> much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
> course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  
>> I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
>>> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is 
>>> a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
>>> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
>>> what else to do.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
 
 When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
 it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
 called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
 Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
 release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
 and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
 this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
 and public reaction to problems can be generated.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does 
>> me. And this other user.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
>>> the 10.2 train.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
 to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
 were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I 
 won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if 
 it doesn't get fixed.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: iPhone 7/7+

[Scott Granados]

The larger battery is a big reason, the larger screen size as I have larger 
hands and the extra gig of memory that the 7 doesn’t have.

Thanks
Scott

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:47 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having looked at 
> the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.
> 
>   Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.
> 
>   Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors 
> compelling enough to push you to the plus?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> -- 
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Re: iPhone 7/7+

[David Chittenden]

I find the larger battery to be extremely compelling. I use GPS fairly 
regularly. In my 6+, I get significantly more battery life than my 7. 
Unfortunately, there were no 7+ available when I needed to get my new iPhone, 
and because I have two phone numbers now, I could not wait for the 7+ upgrade 
to be available. Everything else is similar between the two phones. My fiancé 
has the 7+, and even the stereo separation is not that much more pronounced in 
the larger phone. Next year, I will shift back to the + model. The additional 
battery life is that important for me.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +61 488 988 936
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/12/2016, at 15:47, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having looked at 
> the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.
> 
>   Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.
> 
>   Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors 
> compelling enough to push you to the plus?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
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iPhone 7/7+

[E.T.]

   Weather permitting, I should be getting one of the above. Having 
looked at the specs, 3 things that differ between the two models.


   Screen size/overall size, camera and battery life.

   Those of you who have used both, do you find any of these factors 
compelling enough to push you to the plus?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Helga Schreiber]

Hi all! yes How are youall? Yes, I find the issue that you guys are describing. 
Yes, it is a buhg for me. I tus eto read the messages by flicking up and it 
read the message. We need to report this to them so the release teh update does 
nto ahve any issue. I lok forwardin hearing form yousoon. Thanks and God bless!

  Helga Schreiber 
Group Moderator  
 
  for the IPad help for the blind 
 
ipadhelpfortheblind+subscr...@groups.io  

Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind 
Students.
Member of the International Networkers Team (INT).
Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research.
Phone:  (561) 706-5950 
Email: helga.schreibe...@gmail.com 
Skype: helga.schreiber26 
4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx 
INT Website: http://int4life.com/ 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever 
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 
Sent from my iPhone 7 running IOS 10.1.1

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 6:09 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
>OK. Understood. It sounds to me that it’s broken. If they changed it, they 
> need to be told it was an undesired change. 
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. 
>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the 
>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up 
>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down 
>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two 
>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every 
>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line 
>> where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the 
>> crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
>>> 
>>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
>>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads 
>>> everything? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
 been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
 say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
 as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. 
 And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just 
 read the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to 
 having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't 
 believe it works for most people to have to read the entire screen when 
 all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having 
 to find the exact place on the screen from which you must start reading 
 down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it just fine for 
 several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now it's broken and 
 they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this 
 will report it as a bug.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
> 
> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
>> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
>> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 

Re: Syncing homemade audio books through iCloud?

[Alex Hall]

That was my thought as well. I like the idea of iCloud Drive, but I don't see a 
way to get the books from there into iBooks. To be fair, I can play them right 
from the iCloud Drive app on iOS, I just can't import them into iBooks for 
background playback, keeping my place, etc. I'm thinking iTunes is my only 
hope, sadly.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:12, Maria Chapman  wrote:
> 
> 
> HI.
> 
> would adding them to iCloud drive and then opening them in iBooks work?
> 
> 
> Maria
> 
>> On 5 Dec. 2016, at 2:57 am, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> As far as I know, there's no facility for you to auto-sync Audio Books 
>> through iCloud.  At the moment, this would need to be accomplished through 
>> your iCloud Music Library, but it does not support Audio Books or other 
>> media for syncing across devices.  I believe that they still need to be 
>> synced manually through iTunes.
>> 
>> Later...
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>> On Dec 4, 2016, at 06:39, Alex Hall  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> A while ago, someone posted here about Audio Book Builder, which lets you 
>> create audio books out of your own files. I had some old books from CDs, so 
>> used this program to make them into audio books that iBooks would read.
>> 
>> Now the question. I can go to iBooks and restore purchases to get my 
>> "official" books back on new devices. However, iCloud can sync books, so is 
>> there a way to sync my homemade books between my devices? I want to add them 
>> to iTunes on the computer where they live, then have them appear on my other 
>> devices. I'd rather not manually sync, but I'm wondering if that might be 
>> the only way. Hopefully not.
>> 
>> --
>> Alex Hall
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
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Re: Possibly getting an older Mac

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Go for it! Great Mac to learn on.
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Slight correction,
> 
> Yosemite was released 2 years ago, 2014,
> El capitan was released last year.
> 
> But still good choice I say get it and learn I still prefer features of 
> yocsemite 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Chittenden
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2016 6:22 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Possibly getting an older Mac
> 
> Since it is running Yosemite, I would get it. Yosemite was released last 
> year, so VoiceOver should work fine.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 6/12/2016, at 16:56, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> A lot of this depends on what kind of a Mac it is and how it’s configured.  
>> What you should have your friend do is go to the apple menu, about this Mac, 
>> and give you the information contained there as in what kind of Mac it is, 
>> what kind of processor, how much memory and from there we can answer these 
>> questions more intelligently.  That’s how I would start.  If you can post 
>> that information I’d be happy to answer the rest of your questions from 
>> there.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Scott
>> 
>>> On Dec 5, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Terri Stimmel  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>> I joined this list to get some information I am not sure where to get 
>>> anywhere else.
>>> 
>>> A great friend of mine has a Mac laptop. I'm not sure which one, as 
>>> she didn't say. I am assuming there are different ones?
>>> 
>>> She hardly uses it, and has cleaned her stuff off of it. She wants to 
>>> give it to me as a gift, because she just really never used it.
>>> She says that it can't be upgraded, and that the battery is bad.
>>> But this part really doesn't concern me all that much. My windows 7 
>>> laptop has a useless battery.
>>> 
>>> But here is where I am concerned.
>>> Even though she is giving it to me as a gift, should I consider 
>>> accepting it?
>>> 
>>> What happens if I can't upgrade it?
>>> It's running Yosemite.
>>> 
>>> I have wanted a mac for years! But due to how much they unfortunately 
>>> cost, my chances of actually ever having one, is rare.
>>> 
>>> But if I get this Mac from my friend, what could I do with it?
>>> If it can't be upgraded, won't most Apps no longer work?
>>> Also, what sorts of things can I do with the mac?
>>> What kinds of programs can I put on to it?
>>> 
>>> And last but not least, if I've never used one before, how do I even 
>>> begin to learn how to do this?
>>> 
>>> I have an Iphone 5S, and an Ipad mini4th Generation.
>>> But I would imagine that the mac works way differently from those. 
>>> And I know without a doubt it's way different from my laptop running 
>>> windows.
>>> 
>>> If anyone could give me any thoughts, or suggestions, I would more 
>>> than appreciate it.
>>> Also, any sites that might be helpful to know about, will also be 
>>> appreciated.
>>> I go to get the mac, if I want it, this Saturday.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> Terri
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
>> mark at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is 
>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Sandi Jazmin Kruse]

Okay, is it just me who is like wh? when i see stuff like this, i
mean on the one hand mary tells us that there is a problem, but on the
other hand she don’t?
i will be honest i think it is the most childish mail i have seen for
weeks. If you can’t talk about it , maybe keeping quiet is the better
idea :)

On 12/6/16, John Panarese  wrote:
>OK. Understood. It sounds to me that it’s broken. If they changed it,
> they need to be told it was an undesired change.
>
>
> Take Care
>
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>
>
>
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say.
>> But in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the
>> message text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up
>> read the same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down
>> with start from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two
>> jesters do the same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every
>> time you want to read a message, unless you explore and find the exact
>> line where you want to begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for
>> the crappy sentence structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a
>> bad one.
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese > > wrote:
>>
>>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down
>>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads
>>> everything?
>>>
>>>
>>> Take Care
>>>
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
>>>
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>>
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten > wrote:

 Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I
 have been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS,
 I would say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have
 reported it as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound
 the problem. And why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it
 possible to just read the message text in this specialized case, would
 you regressed to having a one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit
 all. I can't believe it works for most people to have to read the entire
 screen when all you want is the message text, with a nice easy gesture,
 without having to find the exact place on the screen from which you must
 start reading down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been doing it
 just fine for several years now. So, I would say it was expected and now
 it's broken and they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers
 you encounter this will report it as a bug.
 Mary


 Sent from my iPhone

 On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn > wrote:

> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I
> would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from
> beginning and two finger flick down from the current location.
>
> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence
> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior?
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  > wrote:
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm
> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you
> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads
> a whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to
> field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words
> "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the
> message you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the
> inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in
> the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I
> do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[John Panarese]

   OK. Understood. It sounds to me that it’s broken. If they changed it, they 
need to be told it was an undesired change. 


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. But 
> in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the message 
> text only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up read the 
> same thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down with start 
> from, is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two jesters do the 
> same thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every time you want to 
> read a message, unless you explore and find the exact line where you want to 
> begin a two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the crappy sentence 
> structure. Maybe this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  > wrote:
> 
>>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
>> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads everything? 
>> 
>> 
>> Take Care
>> 
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
>> 
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>> 
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>> 
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
>>> been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
>>> say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
>>> as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. And 
>>> why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just read 
>>> the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to having a 
>>> one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't believe it works 
>>> for most people to have to read the entire screen when all you want is the 
>>> message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having to find the exact 
>>> place on the screen from which you must start reading down. It doesn't work 
>>> for me. And they've been doing it just fine for several years now. So, I 
>>> would say it was expected and now it's broken and they need to fix it. I 
>>> sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this will report it as a bug.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn >> > wrote:
>>> 
 I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I 
 would have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from 
 beginning and two finger flick down from the current location. 
 
 I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
 this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
 
 Best Wishes,
 
 Jonathan Cohn 
 
 On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten > wrote:
 Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
 taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
 have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
 whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
 field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
 "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
 you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
 Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous 
 pain in the eye won't say where.
 Mary
 PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
 know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
 of course.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
 >
 > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
 > agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[E.T.]

   If people know the difference between closed beta and public beta 
and respect the NDA for closed betas, no problem!


   The OP did not make that distinction clear in her post. Having done 
so would have resolved any concerns. Fair enough?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 2:31 PM, John Panarese wrote:

Hi Mary,
  No, I have no problems with people in Public Betas who want to present
accessibility warnings. I just don’t want people talking about closed
betas or providing information that Apple has explicitly desired not to
be discussed. If mainstream writers are writing about betas in publicly
available articles, I don’t think we are breaking any rules here.

Hopefully, accessibility will deal with this before the 10.2 Beta is
actually released to everyone.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT




On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Mary Otten > wrote:

Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm
taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when
you have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it
reads a whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear,
the to field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the
words "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the
message you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the
inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in
the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I
do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
Mary
PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and
I know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't
fixed it of course.


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados > wrote:

Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we
agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see
if it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list
and I’ll post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.


On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten > wrote:

I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of
the lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not
want such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was
say that there is a problem, and people should wait until the final
comes out, hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if
they can live with it. I don't know what else to do.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados
> wrote:

I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I
think it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I
actually called Apple and was told that discussions like these were
permitted.  Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date
feature and change release publicly for each beta release meaning
there is no legal concern and I have confirmation right from the
horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in as many forums as
possible so that suitable notification and public reaction to
problems can be generated.


On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T. > wrote:

Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then
its off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 


On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having
the same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running
beta six on an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you
as much as it does me. And this other user.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados
 wrote:

I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running
Beta 6 of the 10.2 train.



On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to
upgrade to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program.
Since I suppose were not supposed to say what is the problem on
some of these lists, I won't. Just saying, don't do it before
you hear about the problem if it doesn't get fixed.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

--
The following information is 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

Yes, the two finger swipe down and the two finger flick up or as you say. But 
in the email app, the two finger flick up has always just read the message text 
only. Now, both to finger flick down and two finger flick up read the same 
thing, because the focus which is where to finger flick down with start from, 
is at the top where all the address stuff is. So the two jesters do the same 
thing, giving you a bot bunch of extraneous crap every time you want to read a 
message, unless you explore and find the exact line where you want to begin a 
two finger flick down read from. Sorry for the crappy sentence structure. Maybe 
this is a design change, but it's a bad one.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
>I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down 
> read from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads everything? 
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
>> been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
>> say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it 
>> as a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. And 
>> why am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just read 
>> the message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to having a 
>> one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't believe it works 
>> for most people to have to read the entire screen when all you want is the 
>> message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having to find the exact 
>> place on the screen from which you must start reading down. It doesn't work 
>> for me. And they've been doing it just fine for several years now. So, I 
>> would say it was expected and now it's broken and they need to fix it. I 
>> sure hope that any beta testers you encounter this will report it as a bug.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I would 
>>> have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from beginning and 
>>> two finger flick down from the current location. 
>>> 
>>> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence 
>>> this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
>>> 
>>> Best Wishes,
>>> 
>>> Jonathan Cohn 
>>> 
 On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:
 Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm 
 taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you 
 have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a 
 whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to 
 field, the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words 
 "message body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message 
 you want to hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 
 10. But the iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. 
 Now it's not good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous 
 pain in the eye won't say where.
 Mary
 PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I 
 know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it 
 of course.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
 > wrote:
 >
 > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
 > agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
 > it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and 
 > I’ll post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
 >
 >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 >>
 >> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of 
 >> the lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not 
 >> want such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say 
 >> that there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes 
 >> out, hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can 
 >> live with it. I don't know what else to do.
 >> Mary
 >>
 >>
 >> Sent from my iPhone
 >>
 >>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[John Panarese]

   I might be missing something here, but isn’t the two finger swipe down read 
from cursor position down and the two finger swipe up reads everything? 


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have 
> been using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would 
> say it is the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it as 
> a bug, it seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. And why 
> am God's holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just read the 
> message text in this specialized case, would you regressed to having a 
> one-size-fits-all, which clearly does not fit all. I can't believe it works 
> for most people to have to read the entire screen when all you want is the 
> message text, with a nice easy gesture, without having to find the exact 
> place on the screen from which you must start reading down. It doesn't work 
> for me. And they've been doing it just fine for several years now. So, I 
> would say it was expected and now it's broken and they need to fix it. I sure 
> hope that any beta testers you encounter this will report it as a bug.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  > wrote:
> 
>> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I would 
>> have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from beginning and 
>> two finger flick down from the current location. 
>> 
>> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence this 
>> is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
>> > agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
>> > it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll 
>> > post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> >
>> >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten > >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>> >> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
>> >> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
>> >> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
>> >> hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
>> >> it. I don't know what else to do.
>> >> Mary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>> >>>
>> >>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>> >>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>> >>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
>> >>> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
>> >>> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
>> >>> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
>> >>> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
>> >>> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
>> >>>
>>  On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T. 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

You are a real optimist, John. Since they haven't dealt with it on the iPad 
from the very beginning of the iOS beta cycle, and now they broken it on the 
phone, I would be shocked if they would actually fix it now. It seems like 
they're going the other way. I would certainly hope that you are correct, 
however.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
>   No, I have no problems with people in Public Betas who want to present 
> accessibility warnings. I just don’t want people talking about closed betas 
> or providing information that Apple has explicitly desired not to be 
> discussed. If mainstream writers are writing about betas in publicly 
> available articles, I don’t think we are breaking any rules here.
> 
> Hopefully, accessibility will deal with this before the 10.2 Beta is 
> actually released to everyone.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree. 
>>>  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
 lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
 discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there 
 is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what 
 the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't 
 know what else to do.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
>>> does me. And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 
 of the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

Well, since the two finger flick up has been working this way since I have been 
using iOS, or at least as long back as I can remember in iOS, I would say it is 
the expected behavior. And since several people have reported it as a bug, it 
seems rather strange that they would compound the problem. And why am God's 
holy name if you found a way to make it possible to just read the message text 
in this specialized case, would you regressed to having a one-size-fits-all, 
which clearly does not fit all. I can't believe it works for most people to 
have to read the entire screen when all you want is the message text, with a 
nice easy gesture, without having to find the exact place on the screen from 
which you must start reading down. It doesn't work for me. And they've been 
doing it just fine for several years now. So, I would say it was expected and 
now it's broken and they need to fix it. I sure hope that any beta testers you 
encounter this will report it as a bug.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I would 
> have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from beginning and two 
> finger flick down from the current location. 
> 
> I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence this 
> is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior? 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:
>> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
>> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
>> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
>> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
>> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
>> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads 
>> have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been 
>> good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read 
>> as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
>> Mary
>> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
>> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
>> course.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we 
>> > agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if 
>> > it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll 
>> > post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> >
>> >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>> >> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want 
>> >> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that 
>> >> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, 
>> >> hear what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with 
>> >> it. I don't know what else to do.
>> >> Mary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>> >>>
>> >>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>> >>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>> >>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
>> >>> Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
>> >>> release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
>> >>> and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
>> >>> this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
>> >>> and public reaction to problems can be generated.
>> >>>
>>  On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>>  topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Without H2O there is no life!
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> > On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> > Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>> > same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six 
>> > on an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it 
>> > does me. And this other user.
>> > Mary
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Jonathan Cohn]

I hardly ever use two finger flick up, because that is the behavior I would
have expected. Two finger flick up is supposed to read from beginning and
two finger flick down from the current location.

I can understand that this would be frustrating but do we have evidence
this is a that the behavior you prefer is the intended behavior?

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM Mary Otten  wrote:

> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm
> taking my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you
> have opened a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a
> whole lot of extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field,
> the from field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message
> body". It does all that before it reads the text of the message you want to
> hear. iPads have been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the
> iPhone has been good until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not
> good. If you read as much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the
> eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I
> know others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it
> of course.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados 
> wrote:
> >
> > Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we
> agree.  I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if
> it’s universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll
> post it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
> >
> >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of
> the lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want
> such discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that
> there is a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear
> what the problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I
> don't know what else to do.
> >> Mary
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> >>>
> >>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I
> think it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I
> actually called Apple and was told that discussions like these were
> permitted.  Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature
> and change release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal
> concern and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to
> discuss this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable
> notification and public reaction to problems can be generated.
> >>>
>  On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>  Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its
> off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Without H2O there is no life!
>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> > On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
> > Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having
> the same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on
> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does
> me. And this other user.
> > Mary
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados <
> scott.grana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta
> 6 of the 10.2 train.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to
> upgrade to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose
> were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I
> won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it
> doesn't get fixed.
> >>> Mary
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> >>>
> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this
> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact
> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >>>
> >>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach
> mark at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is
> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> >>>
> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

I'm so glad we were told what the problem was or this thread would have been 
pointless.  If Apple say things can be discussed in a public beta then for 
heaven's sake just put it on this list as you are not breaking any rules and as 
it's not illegal to do it as Apple say then for heaven's sake, there should be 
no issue for the moderators to let us have a full frank discussion.

Well if anyone wants to take issue, it's welcome as I don't mind having a 
challenging discussion and I'll be a rebel, damn with the consequences!

Kawal.
> On 6 Dec 2016, at 22:25, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have 
> been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good 
> until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as 
> much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
> course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  
>> I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
>>> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is 
>>> a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
>>> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
>>> what else to do.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
 
 When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
 it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
 called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
 Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
 release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
 and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
 this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
 and public reaction to problems can be generated.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does 
>> me. And this other user.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
>>> the 10.2 train.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
 to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
 were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I 
 won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if 
 it doesn't get fixed.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 --
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
 or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
 the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[John Panarese]

Hi Mary,
  No, I have no problems with people in Public Betas who want to present 
accessibility warnings. I just don’t want people talking about closed betas or 
providing information that Apple has explicitly desired not to be discussed. If 
mainstream writers are writing about betas in publicly available articles, I 
don’t think we are breaking any rules here.

Hopefully, accessibility will deal with this before the 10.2 Beta is 
actually released to everyone.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



> On Dec 6, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking 
> my chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened 
> a message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of 
> extra stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from 
> field, but time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does 
> all that before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have 
> been doing this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good 
> until somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as 
> much email as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
> Mary
> PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
> others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of 
> course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  
>> I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
>> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post 
>> it at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
>>> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is 
>>> a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
>>> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
>>> what else to do.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
 
 When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
 it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
 called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  
 Also consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change 
 release publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern 
 and I have confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss 
 this openly in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification 
 and public reaction to problems can be generated.
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
>> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
>> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does 
>> me. And this other user.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
>>> the 10.2 train.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
 to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
 were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I 
 won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if 
 it doesn't get fixed.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 --
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

Well I haven't heard John say he's against this kind of post, so I'm taking my 
chances. The problem is with the two finger flick up when you have opened a 
message. It now behaves like the iPad, that is, it reads a whole lot of extra 
stuff that you don't need or want to hear, the to field, the from field, but 
time, the subject, and finally the words "message body". It does all that 
before it reads the text of the message you want to hear. iPads have been doing 
this since the inception of iOS 10. But the iPhone has been good until 
somewhere in the 10.2 beta cycle. Now it's not good. If you read as much email 
as I do, this is a righteous pain in the eye won't say where.
Mary
PS, I have reported it before for the iPad and now for the phone, and I know 
others have reported it for the iPad, and they still haven't fixed it of course.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  
> I haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s 
> universal or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post it 
> at least where we shouldn’t have objection.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
>> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
>> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is 
>> a problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
>> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
>> what else to do.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>>> 
>>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also 
>>> consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release 
>>> publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have 
>>> confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly 
>>> in as many forums as possible so that suitable notification and public 
>>> reaction to problems can be generated.
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
 topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Without H2O there is no life!
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the 
> same issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on 
> an iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does 
> me. And this other user.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
>> the 10.2 train.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade 
>>> to 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose 
>>> were not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I 
>>> won't. Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it 
>>> doesn't get fixed.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>> itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>> at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to 

Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Krister Ekstrom]

To be frank, i don’t think there’s any difference. I’d be glad if it was but i 
no longer hold my breath.
/Krister

> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 21:17 skrev Christopher-Mark Gilland :
> 
> You don't need a bridge to connect up a Sonos system. I, for one don't use a 
> bridge, and it works fantastically.
> 
> On another note, did anyone get the V7 yet of the Sonos controller and try 
> accessibility with it on the Mac? I'll be doing so shortly to see if it's any 
> better.
> 
> Chris.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Krister Ekstrom" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
> 
> 
> My Sonos is connected to wifi through a wireless router and a Sonos Bridge, 
> although i don’t know if the bridge plays a part in connecting or not.
> The app is surprisingly accessible both on iOs and Android but the experience 
> on the mac isn’t so nice.
> Hope this helps.
> /Krister
> 
>> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 18:31 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
>> 
>> Hi krister,
>> 
>> How does your Sonos unit connect to your network?  And do you find the Sonos 
>> app accessible?  Feel free to write off list since I'm probably straying 
>> into an off-list topic.
>> 
>> Many thanks for responding
>> 
>> Andrew
>>> On 6 Dec 2016, at 14:14, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> I have a Sonos Connect amp sitting here. I also have a pair of regular hifi 
>>> speakers connected to them and it sounds quite good, i’d say.
>>> /Krister
>>> 
 6 dec. 2016 kl. 14:04 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
 
 Hi,
 
 I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a 
 while I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder whether 
 anybody on the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description it says 
 that one could connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi capabilities 
 to airplay music to it.  I happen to have a pair of good speakers  which 
 are very old but I'm unwilling to get rid of them because of the quality 
 of sound they used to give me.  So I'm thinking I might be able to save 
 them by getting Sonos Connect:AMP.  Also, Sonos connect:AMP can be 
 connected to the home network via ethernet.  Could I plug it into my home 
 network via the ethernet port on apple tv or apple express? I'd appreciate 
 any comments.
 
 Andrew
> On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I want 20 channel IMAX.;)
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hell no dude,
>> Gotta have the 11.2.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>> 
>> Hi Simon,
>> 
>> That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 
>> more speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 
>> channel amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and an 
>> extra 2 channels out which you attach to a second amplifier. Certainly, 
>> 9.2 would be sufficient.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Scott,
>>> 
>>> I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?
>>> 
>>> That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock the 
>>> living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>>> 
>>> For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I
>>> mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via
>>> safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of
>>> 32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker,
>>> Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with
>>> DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I
>>> listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you had
>>> 11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers
>>> were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you,
>>> sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically
>>> adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than
>>> 

Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

You don't need a bridge to connect up a Sonos system. I, for one don't use a 
bridge, and it works fantastically.


On another note, did anyone get the V7 yet of the Sonos controller and try 
accessibility with it on the Mac? I'll be doing so shortly to see if it's 
any better.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Krister Ekstrom" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products


My Sonos is connected to wifi through a wireless router and a Sonos Bridge, 
although i don’t know if the bridge plays a part in connecting or not.
The app is surprisingly accessible both on iOs and Android but the 
experience on the mac isn’t so nice.

Hope this helps.
/Krister


6 dec. 2016 kl. 18:31 skrev Andrew Lamanche :

Hi krister,

How does your Sonos unit connect to your network?  And do you find the 
Sonos app accessible?  Feel free to write off list since I'm probably 
straying into an off-list topic.


Many thanks for responding

Andrew
On 6 Dec 2016, at 14:14, Krister Ekstrom  
wrote:


Hi,
I have a Sonos Connect amp sitting here. I also have a pair of regular 
hifi speakers connected to them and it sounds quite good, i’d say.

/Krister


6 dec. 2016 kl. 14:04 skrev Andrew Lamanche :

Hi,

I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a 
while I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder 
whether anybody on the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description 
it says that one could connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi 
capabilities to airplay music to it.  I happen to have a pair of good 
speakers  which are very old but I'm unwilling to get rid of them 
because of the quality of sound they used to give me.  So I'm thinking I 
might be able to save them by getting Sonos Connect:AMP.  Also, Sonos 
connect:AMP can be connected to the home network via ethernet.  Could I 
plug it into my home network via the ethernet port on apple tv or apple 
express? I'd appreciate any comments.


Andrew
On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  
wrote:


I want 20 channel IMAX.;)

On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  
wrote:


Hell no dude,
Gotta have the 11.2.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados

Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products

Hi Simon,

That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 
more speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 
channel amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and 
an extra 2 channels out which you attach to a second amplifier. 
Certainly, 9.2 would be sufficient.



On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  
wrote:


Hi Scott,

I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?

That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock 
the living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products

For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I
mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via
safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of
32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker,
Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with
DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I
listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you 
had

11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers
were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you,
sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically
adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than
from a single point.  On the video side it upscaled everything to 4K
60 FPS complete with HDR video or you could genitive pass through if
you wanted.  You could also break up the 11 channels and have
different speakers for different zones so say 7.1 in the mail room 
and

5.1 in the other or 5.1 and several sets of 2 etc.  The thing that
blew me away though was the automatic calibration and setup.  What
would have taken an audio degree in my day to configure used 8
microphone pickups that you scatter around the room and it uses pink
noise and other pulses to set itself up.  Also included WiFi so you
can grab your XM or other streamed content, it automatically software
updated and you could buy extra CODECS and decoders for different
surround standards.  All for $3000 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

I know what you're talking about, and though I can't reveal what it is, I'll 
confirm that I think I know what you're referring to, and trust me. You're 
not crazy, as I'm most likely having it too.


You're welcome to write me off list if you wanna exchange notes.

clgillan...@gmail.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Mary Otten" 
To: ; ; 


Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 12:48 PM
Subject: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 
when it comes out



If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not 
supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just 
saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
fixed.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

Just post the problem so we can all post our concerns to Apple if we agree.  I 
haven’t run in to a problem so it would also be good to see if it’s universal 
or not.  If you’re not comfortable, write off list and I’ll post it at least 
where we shouldn’t have objection.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the 
> lists which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
> discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is a 
> problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
> problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
> what else to do.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
>> 
>> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think 
>> it’s critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually 
>> called Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also 
>> consider that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release 
>> publicly for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have 
>> confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in 
>> as many forums as possible so that suitable notification and public reaction 
>> to problems can be generated.
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Without H2O there is no life!
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
 Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
 issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an 
 iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. 
 And this other user.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
> the 10.2 train.
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
>> 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were 
>> not supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. 
>> Just saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't 
>> get fixed.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> --
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>> Visionaries list.
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>> at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Donna Goodin]

If that is the case, it would be really helpful to the rest of us to know what 
the issue in question is.  Otherwise people are just raising the alarm but not 
letting anyone know why.
Best,
Donna
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think it’s 
> critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually called 
> Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also consider 
> that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release publicly 
> for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have 
> confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in 
> as many forums as possible so that suitable notification and public reaction 
> to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
>>> issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an 
>>> iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. 
>>> And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
 the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
> 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not 
> supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just 
> saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
> fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
> at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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 --
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>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> 

Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Krister Ekstrom]

My Sonos is connected to wifi through a wireless router and a Sonos Bridge, 
although i don’t know if the bridge plays a part in connecting or not.
The app is surprisingly accessible both on iOs and Android but the experience 
on the mac isn’t so nice.
Hope this helps.
/Krister

> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 18:31 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
> 
> Hi krister,
> 
> How does your Sonos unit connect to your network?  And do you find the Sonos 
> app accessible?  Feel free to write off list since I'm probably straying into 
> an off-list topic.
> 
> Many thanks for responding
> 
> Andrew
>> On 6 Dec 2016, at 14:14, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> I have a Sonos Connect amp sitting here. I also have a pair of regular hifi 
>> speakers connected to them and it sounds quite good, i’d say.
>> /Krister
>> 
>>> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 14:04 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a 
>>> while I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder whether 
>>> anybody on the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description it says that 
>>> one could connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi capabilities to 
>>> airplay music to it.  I happen to have a pair of good speakers  which are 
>>> very old but I'm unwilling to get rid of them because of the quality of 
>>> sound they used to give me.  So I'm thinking I might be able to save them 
>>> by getting Sonos Connect:AMP.  Also, Sonos connect:AMP can be connected to 
>>> the home network via ethernet.  Could I plug it into my home network via 
>>> the ethernet port on apple tv or apple express? I'd appreciate any comments.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
 On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 I want 20 channel IMAX.;)
 
> On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hell no dude,
> Gotta have the 11.2.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
> 
> Hi Simon,
> 
> That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 more 
> speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 channel 
> amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and an extra 2 
> channels out which you attach to a second amplifier.  Certainly, 9.2 
> would be sufficient.
> 
> 
>> On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Scott,
>> 
>> I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?
>> 
>> That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock the 
>> living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>> 
>> For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I 
>> mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via 
>> safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of 
>> 32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker, 
>> Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with 
>> DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I 
>> listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you had 
>> 11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers 
>> were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you, 
>> sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically 
>> adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than 
>> from a single point.  On the video side it upscaled everything to 4K 
>> 60 FPS complete with HDR video or you could genitive pass through if 
>> you wanted.  You could also break up the 11 channels and have 
>> different speakers for different zones so say 7.1 in the mail room and 
>> 5.1 in the other or 5.1 and several sets of 2 etc.  The thing that 
>> blew me away though was the automatic calibration and setup.  What 
>> would have taken an audio degree in my day to configure used 8 
>> microphone pickups that you scatter around the room and it uses pink 
>> noise and other pulses to set itself up.  Also included WiFi so you 
>> can grab your XM or other streamed content, it automatically software 
>> updated and you could buy extra CODECS and decoders for different 

Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

I agree with you, Scott. But since the list admin of at least one of the lists 
which I have posted has explicitly stated that they do not want such 
discussions on list, I felt the only thing I could do was say that there is a 
problem, and people should wait until the final comes out, hear what the 
problem is and decide for themselves if they can live with it. I don't know 
what else to do.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly.
> 
> When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think it’s 
> critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually called 
> Apple and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also consider 
> that Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release publicly 
> for each beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have 
> confirmation right from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in 
> as many forums as possible so that suitable notification and public reaction 
> to problems can be generated.
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
>> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Without H2O there is no life!
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
>>> issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an 
>>> iPhone 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. 
>>> And this other user.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of 
 the 10.2 train.
 
 
> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
> 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not 
> supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just 
> saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
> fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
> at:  macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

When our access is concerned and someone wants to raise concerns I think it’s 
critical that they do so and this is the public beta.  I actually called Apple 
and was told that discussions like these were permitted.  Also consider that 
Redmondpie gives an update to date feature and change release publicly for each 
beta release meaning there is no legal concern and I have confirmation right 
from the horses mouth.  We need to discuss this openly in as many forums as 
possible so that suitable notification and public reaction to problems can be 
generated.

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:58 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its off 
> topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Without H2O there is no life!
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:
>> Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
>> issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an iPhone 
>> 7 Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. And this 
>> other user.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of the 
>>> 10.2 train.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not 
 supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just 
 saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
 fixed.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[E.T.]

   Can't we keep this off list 100%? If 10.2 is still in beta then its 
off topic, yes? Where is that discussion group for beta testers?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Without H2O there is no life!
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 12/6/2016 9:52 AM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an iPhone 7 
Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. And this other 
user.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of the 
10.2 train.



On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 10.2 
if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not supposed 
to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just saying, don't 
do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get fixed.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Matthew Dierckens]

Hi Mary, I am a member of the beta problem and I have noticed no issues with 
mail with either speech or braille.
Can you please elaborate off list?

God bless.
Matthew Dierckens
Certified Assistive Technology Specialist
Macintosh, IOS  and Windows Trainer
JAWS for windows Certified - 2016
Canadian Phone: 519-962-9140
U.S. phone: 573-401-1018
Personal Email: matt.dierck...@me.com

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 10.2 
> if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not supposed 
> to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just saying, 
> don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

Well, I did confirm off list with another beta user who is having the same 
issue I am having. So I know it isn't just me, running beta six on an iPhone 7 
Plus. Maybe this issue doesn't bother you as much as it does me. And this other 
user.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2016, at 9:51 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of the 
> 10.2 train.
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 
>> 10.2 if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not 
>> supposed to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just 
>> saying, don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get 
>> fixed.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
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Re: iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Scott Granados]

I have not had any issues with mail on 10.2 on the 7+ running Beta 6 of the 
10.2 train.


> On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 10.2 
> if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not supposed 
> to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just saying, 
> don't do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get fixed.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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iPhone users of the mail app think twice before upgrading to 10.2 when it comes out

[Mary Otten]

If you are a heavy user of the iPhone mail app, don't rush to upgrade to 10.2 
if you are not already in the beta program. Since I suppose were not supposed 
to say what is the problem on some of these lists, I won't. Just saying, don't 
do it before you hear about the problem if it doesn't get fixed.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

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Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Andrew Lamanche]

Hi krister,

How does your Sonos unit connect to your network?  And do you find the Sonos 
app accessible?  Feel free to write off list since I'm probably straying into 
an off-list topic.

Many thanks for responding

Andrew
> On 6 Dec 2016, at 14:14, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I have a Sonos Connect amp sitting here. I also have a pair of regular hifi 
> speakers connected to them and it sounds quite good, i’d say.
> /Krister
> 
>> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 14:04 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a 
>> while I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder whether 
>> anybody on the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description it says that 
>> one could connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi capabilities to 
>> airplay music to it.  I happen to have a pair of good speakers  which are 
>> very old but I'm unwilling to get rid of them because of the quality of 
>> sound they used to give me.  So I'm thinking I might be able to save them by 
>> getting Sonos Connect:AMP.  Also, Sonos connect:AMP can be connected to the 
>> home network via ethernet.  Could I plug it into my home network via the 
>> ethernet port on apple tv or apple express? I'd appreciate any comments.
>> 
>> Andrew
>>> On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I want 20 channel IMAX.;)
>>> 
 On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
 
 Hell no dude,
 Gotta have the 11.2.
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
 Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
 
 Hi Simon,
 
 That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 more 
 speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 channel 
 amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and an extra 2 
 channels out which you attach to a second amplifier.  Certainly, 9.2 would 
 be sufficient.
 
 
> On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?
> 
> That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock the 
> living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
> 
> For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I 
> mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via 
> safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of 
> 32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker, 
> Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with 
> DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I 
> listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you had 
> 11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers 
> were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you, 
> sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically 
> adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than 
> from a single point.  On the video side it upscaled everything to 4K 
> 60 FPS complete with HDR video or you could genitive pass through if 
> you wanted.  You could also break up the 11 channels and have 
> different speakers for different zones so say 7.1 in the mail room and 
> 5.1 in the other or 5.1 and several sets of 2 etc.  The thing that 
> blew me away though was the automatic calibration and setup.  What 
> would have taken an audio degree in my day to configure used 8 
> microphone pickups that you scatter around the room and it uses pink 
> noise and other pulses to set itself up.  Also included WiFi so you 
> can grab your XM or other streamed content, it automatically software 
> updated and you could buy extra CODECS and decoders for different 
> surround standards.  All for $3000 which ain’t bad when you consider 
> how many features you get.  There’s also an App for the iPad or iPhone 
> to configure, supports bluetooth and includes preamp outs in case the 
> 260 watts per channel CLASS AB amps weren’t good enough that are 
> included.  You also get the full 260 watts class AB on all channels, 
> not just the fronts.  Each channel has 4 32 bit convertors and they 

Re: Syncing homemade audio books through iCloud?

[Maria Chapman]

HI.

would adding them to iCloud drive and then opening them in iBooks work?


Maria

> On 5 Dec. 2016, at 2:57 am, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As far as I know, there's no facility for you to auto-sync Audio Books 
> through iCloud.  At the moment, this would need to be accomplished through 
> your iCloud Music Library, but it does not support Audio Books or other media 
> for syncing across devices.  I believe that they still need to be synced 
> manually through iTunes.
> 
> Later...
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
> On Dec 4, 2016, at 06:39, Alex Hall  > wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> A while ago, someone posted here about Audio Book Builder, which lets you 
> create audio books out of your own files. I had some old books from CDs, so 
> used this program to make them into audio books that iBooks would read.
> 
> Now the question. I can go to iBooks and restore purchases to get my 
> "official" books back on new devices. However, iCloud can sync books, so is 
> there a way to sync my homemade books between my devices? I want to add them 
> to iTunes on the computer where they live, then have them appear on my other 
> devices. I'd rather not manually sync, but I'm wondering if that might be the 
> only way. Hopefully not.
> 
> --
> Alex Hall
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
I have a Sonos Connect amp sitting here. I also have a pair of regular hifi 
speakers connected to them and it sounds quite good, i’d say.
/Krister

> 6 dec. 2016 kl. 14:04 skrev Andrew Lamanche :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a 
> while I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder whether 
> anybody on the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description it says that 
> one could connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi capabilities to 
> airplay music to it.  I happen to have a pair of good speakers  which are 
> very old but I'm unwilling to get rid of them because of the quality of sound 
> they used to give me.  So I'm thinking I might be able to save them by 
> getting Sonos Connect:AMP.  Also, Sonos connect:AMP can be connected to the 
> home network via ethernet.  Could I plug it into my home network via the 
> ethernet port on apple tv or apple express? I'd appreciate any comments.
> 
> Andrew
>> On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I want 20 channel IMAX.;)
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hell no dude,
>>> Gotta have the 11.2.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>>> 
>>> Hi Simon,
>>> 
>>> That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 more 
>>> speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 channel 
>>> amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and an extra 2 
>>> channels out which you attach to a second amplifier.  Certainly, 9.2 would 
>>> be sufficient.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
 
 Hi Scott,
 
 I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?
 
 That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock the 
 living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
 Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
 
 For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I 
 mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via 
 safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of 
 32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker, 
 Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with 
 DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I 
 listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you had 
 11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers 
 were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you, 
 sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically 
 adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than 
 from a single point.  On the video side it upscaled everything to 4K 
 60 FPS complete with HDR video or you could genitive pass through if 
 you wanted.  You could also break up the 11 channels and have 
 different speakers for different zones so say 7.1 in the mail room and 
 5.1 in the other or 5.1 and several sets of 2 etc.  The thing that 
 blew me away though was the automatic calibration and setup.  What 
 would have taken an audio degree in my day to configure used 8 
 microphone pickups that you scatter around the room and it uses pink 
 noise and other pulses to set itself up.  Also included WiFi so you 
 can grab your XM or other streamed content, it automatically software 
 updated and you could buy extra CODECS and decoders for different 
 surround standards.  All for $3000 which ain’t bad when you consider 
 how many features you get.  There’s also an App for the iPad or iPhone 
 to configure, supports bluetooth and includes preamp outs in case the 
 260 watts per channel CLASS AB amps weren’t good enough that are 
 included.  You also get the full 260 watts class AB on all channels, 
 not just the fronts.  Each channel has 4 32 bit convertors and they 
 use 4 32 bit audicy DSP processors for signal manipulation.  (It does 
 a hell of a lot of math, something like 10 billion flops)
 
 You start adding speakers, installation of the speakers, cables, more 
 decoders and such and you get in to very tall money very quickly but when 
 I buy my next free standing house instead of a town house I know the way 
 I’m going.  The other 

Language switching in Sierra with Infovox

[Marissa Manzino]

Hi all,

I updated to Sierra the other day and I have a problem I can’t seem to solve. I 
work in Spanish and English. I have my default voice set to Ines  from Infovox, 
and my English voice set to Sharon. I used to sue activities and just switch 
back and forth as needed. It seems to work just fine, except in Safari. If I 
switch to Sharon to read a webpage in English, it will immediately switch back 
to Ines. Has anyone found a work around for this? THanks for any help.

Musically,
Allison
My birds are winged blessings, they help me soar!



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Re: Question about the Sonos products

[Andrew Lamanche]

Hi,

I've been following some of the discussions on Sonos because for quite a while 
I've been wanting to go that way for my listening.  I wonder whether anybody on 
the list has Sonos connect:AMP.  In its description it says that one could 
connect old speakers to it and use Sonos wifi capabilities to airplay music to 
it.  I happen to have a pair of good speakers  which are very old but I'm 
unwilling to get rid of them because of the quality of sound they used to give 
me.  So I'm thinking I might be able to save them by getting Sonos Connect:AMP. 
 Also, Sonos connect:AMP can be connected to the home network via ethernet.  
Could I plug it into my home network via the ethernet port on apple tv or apple 
express? I'd appreciate any comments.

Andrew
> On 6 Dec 2016, at 04:08, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I want 20 channel IMAX.;)
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hell no dude,
>> Gotta have the 11.2.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 6:36 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>> 
>> Hi Simon,
>> 
>> That’s correct, the receiver only is $3000, you have to buy up to 11 more 
>> speakers and 2 subs to get the fullest as well as an additional 2 channel 
>> amplifier.  You get 9 amplifiers built in to the receiver and an extra 2 
>> channels out which you attach to a second amplifier.  Certainly, 9.2 would 
>> be sufficient.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 2, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Scott,
>>> 
>>> I'm guessing that's not with speakers the 3K?
>>> 
>>> That sounds bloody amazing shame I don't own this house, I'd knock the 
>>> living room down and build my rooms around the stereo.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 2 December 2016 1:24 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Question about the Sonos products
>>> 
>>> For a goof today I went and looked at a ultra high end receiver.  I 
>>> mention it here on the Mac list because it was very configurable via 
>>> safari which I actually tried and loved.  You can set up all sorts of 
>>> 32 bit audio processing, automatic room equalization, but the kicker, 
>>> Dolby Atmos and it’s own proprietary 3d emersion algorithm along with 
>>> DTS Neo and several other objected oriented DTS formats.  Whoa!  I 
>>> listened to an 11 channel setup, believe it or not, 11.2 where you had 
>>> 11 channels and 2 subwoofers.  Again, whoa!  Several sets of speakers 
>>> were set in the front for an expanded sound stage in front of you, 
>>> sides, back, and yes over head with 2 subwoofers that automatically 
>>> adjust so the base is distributed evenly around the room rather than 
>>> from a single point.  On the video side it upscaled everything to 4K 
>>> 60 FPS complete with HDR video or you could genitive pass through if 
>>> you wanted.  You could also break up the 11 channels and have 
>>> different speakers for different zones so say 7.1 in the mail room and 
>>> 5.1 in the other or 5.1 and several sets of 2 etc.  The thing that 
>>> blew me away though was the automatic calibration and setup.  What 
>>> would have taken an audio degree in my day to configure used 8 
>>> microphone pickups that you scatter around the room and it uses pink 
>>> noise and other pulses to set itself up.  Also included WiFi so you 
>>> can grab your XM or other streamed content, it automatically software 
>>> updated and you could buy extra CODECS and decoders for different 
>>> surround standards.  All for $3000 which ain’t bad when you consider 
>>> how many features you get.  There’s also an App for the iPad or iPhone 
>>> to configure, supports bluetooth and includes preamp outs in case the 
>>> 260 watts per channel CLASS AB amps weren’t good enough that are 
>>> included.  You also get the full 260 watts class AB on all channels, 
>>> not just the fronts.  Each channel has 4 32 bit convertors and they 
>>> use 4 32 bit audicy DSP processors for signal manipulation.  (It does 
>>> a hell of a lot of math, something like 10 billion flops)
>>> 
>>> You start adding speakers, installation of the speakers, cables, more 
>>> decoders and such and you get in to very tall money very quickly but when I 
>>> buy my next free standing house instead of a town house I know the way I’m 
>>> going.  The other interesting thing it supposedly had a mechanism that 
>>> isolated the sound with in your sound space so you didn’t blow your 
>>> neighbors out of their units next door.  I’m skeptical with over a kw of 
>>> power.  They didn’t have Sonos at this store, wasn’t high enough end for 
>>> them:) but at least I found myself a 

Re: Folder behavior

[Alex Hall]

My first thought is the view setting. If folders normally open instead of just 
expand, I'm guessing you usually use List View? Try pressing cmd-2 to get back 
to that view.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2016, at 23:03, Joseph Norton  wrote:
> 
> Hi list:
> 
> I am just now getting back into working with Mac OS, and, I’ve come across 
> something which I can’t remember how to deal with.
> 
> I must have done something to my Downloads folder, because, when I press 
> Command-O from the Home folder to get to Downloads, it doesn’t seem to 
> actually   open the folder.  I bet I pressed some function key by accident, 
> but, I’m not sure what it is.  Normally, when I press Command-O, it opens up 
> the folder normally, but, now, it doesn’t seem to open it at all.  Other 
> folders seem to behave ok.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to fix this behavior?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
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Re: Braille and VMWare Fusion?

[Brandt Steenkamp]

Hi, thanks, yes. That did indeed help.

Seeing a MacBook pro on an Alva like the laptops of old brings a nostalgic 
smile to my face.

Warm regards,

Brandt Steenkamp

Sent from my Macbook Pro

Contact:

Phone:
Private: +27 (0)60 525 9181 
For technical support with iOS: +27 (0)78 120 5013 

Email: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com 

Twitter: @brandtsteenkamp 
> On 06 Dec 2016, at 5:59 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Hi there, yes to both.  First, start fusion and windows, next, attach your 
> braille display and a popup will appear on the vm fusion application itself.  
> It will ask if you wish to connect the device to your Mac or virtual machine 
> and there is a check box to remember your choice so you don’t have to do it 
> each time, pick virtual machine and set the checkbox as you desire.  You’ll 
> then hear the windows sound for attaching a braille device.
> 
> Second, you can use the USB cable on the focus 40 and do the very same 
> procedure I listed above, or, go to the settings for the VM, activate the 
> bluetooth option so the bluetooth adapter is passed through to windows and 
> use the normal braille pairing option from there.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
>> On Dec 5, 2016, at 1:46 PM, Brandt Steenkamp > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi there folks,
>> 
>> I have an old Alva 320 display, running off a cereal connection, Can you 
>> connect a USB to cereal cable to windows in VMWare? If so, would an older 
>> display work?
>> 
>> A second question. A friend of mine has a Focus 40 blue. How do you connect 
>> it to Windows in Fusion?
>> 
>> Warm regards,
>> 
>> Brandt Steenkamp
>> 
>> Sent from my Macbook Pro
>> 
>> Contact:
>> 
>> Phone:
>> Private: +27 (0)60 525 9181 
>> For technical support with iOS: +27 (0)78 120 5013 
>> 
>> Email: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> Twitter: @brandtsteenkamp 
>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
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>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>  and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
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>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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> 
> 
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