Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Hi, That is why I suggested a rating system with categories. For example, labeled buttons would be one of the criteria for the rating system. Let the users define accessibility by essentially voting on a few general components that make up over all accessibility for an iPhone app. On May 6, 2010, at 11:06 PM, John J Herzog wrote: I see a problem with this philosophy. Different people view accessibility in different ways. For instance, some people would not consider the workout application posted to this list accessible because of a few unlabeled buttons. Others would be fine with it. Similarly, I have a few games on the IPod, where the introductory screens work with voiceover, and then you turn it off to play the actual game. Action bowling comes to mind. What is apple to do? How should they define accessibility? Do they give all who complain refunds, even though some complaints are more genuine and reasonable than others? Do they say that, if a certain number of buttons aren't labeled, the app is inaccessible? Do they say that, if you cannot play a game with voiceover on, then all blind people should get their money back? I know that it sucks to pay for apps which are unusable by and large. But this accessibility criteria for refunds on apps is going to cause a lot of problems. And, more importantly, I worry that if we have people constantly holding apple to different standards of accessibility, it might sideline any further efforts they put into improving the platform for blind users. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here. John On May 6, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Going by the model Apple has devised, I assume the accessibility of an app falls on the shoulders of the developers. On May 6, 2010, at 11:26 PM, olivia norman wrote: Also, I wonder who's responsibility it is to intigrate access into apps? Is it Apple's? The developers? John also makes great observations about defining accessibility and what apple should do regarding this! Olivia On May 6, 2010, at 11:06 PM, John J Herzog wrote: I see a problem with this philosophy. Different people view accessibility in different ways. For instance, some people would not consider the workout application posted to this list accessible because of a few unlabeled buttons. Others would be fine with it. Similarly, I have a few games on the IPod, where the introductory screens work with voiceover, and then you turn it off to play the actual game. Action bowling comes to mind. What is apple to do? How should they define accessibility? Do they give all who complain refunds, even though some complaints are more genuine and reasonable than others? Do they say that, if a certain number of buttons aren't labeled, the app is inaccessible? Do they say that, if you cannot play a game with voiceover on, then all blind people should get their money back? I know that it sucks to pay for apps which are unusable by and large. But this accessibility criteria for refunds on apps is going to cause a lot of problems. And, more importantly, I worry that if we have people constantly holding apple to different standards of accessibility, it might sideline any further efforts they put into improving the platform for blind users. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here. John On May 6, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Hi Cara, I couldn't agree with you more if i tried. A friendly dialog is what takes the matter forward. I don't know if it has to do with where one grows up and possibly how, but i actually see what apple has done to us as a privilege rather than a right. I also know that accessibility although high up on Apples list hasn't the highest priority given the market so it will go first if things go bad, so let's try to make them realize that their efforts are very much appreciated rather than yelling and bashing, ok? /Krister 7 maj 2010 kl. 01.41 skrev Cara Quinn: To be fair here, I'm not trying to help rouse the troops as it were. I completely agree with you, but I'd really encourage people to simply voice these concerns in a polite and amicable way, rather than complaining. I say this, as (no offense to anyone in particular) in my opinion, the blind community just tends to over-react, and get ridiculously up-in-arms over everything much of the time, and rather than making this out to be a situation where Apple is somehow the bad guys, forcing us to pay for apps, or binding and preventing us from having a say as to an app's accessibility, I'd simply propose that this is merely a case of the majority of the market being sighted, and not enough of us voicing these concerns on a regular basis. So rather than a bunch of us flagrantly flying off the handle to the people at accessibil...@apple.com, I'd personally just rather see people carrying on an adult dialogue which can be constructive. Quite simply, the more of us that say something, the more of us that will be heard. Do we want to be heard as over-emotional unstable complainers, or as rational friendly adults trying to bring about positive changes?… I know you know what I mean, so I won't dwell on semantics. Thanks all for reading, and again, let's make our voices heard in the best way possible, K?… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate
RE: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Right, ratings are fine. If I know that an app scores 2 out of 5 in accessibility reviews, I have no reason to expect it to work perfectly, but I can expect that at least some part of it will be minimally usable. If it gets a 1, though, it is a safe bet that I'm not going to be able to do anything at all with it. I know that Apple doesn't have any control over what 3rd party developers do with regard to accessibility. If we had ratings to at least know what we're getting in to before hand, that would be fine. If we could get a refund if we tried something and it didn't work, that would be fine, also. Right now, though, we have no advance information regarding how well an app will work, and, if it doesn't, we don't get a refund. This isn't Apple being cruel and insensitive, so no need to blame them. Something should be done, in fairness, though. Even though they aren't creating the problem, it is their App Store, the only way to get software for these devices legally, and so they're the only ones with power to do anything about it. It is easy to say live and let live, but perhaps after you buy a few iPad apps for $10 each, and realize that you might has well have ripped up $40 or $50 and thrown it in the trash, you'll feel that this is worth effort. After all, if you bought something at a store, brought it home, and figured out that it didn't work, you'd take it back and get your money. This isn't like traditional software purchases where, once a box is open, you can't return the software, as there is no way to know that you haven't returned the box while leaving the software installed on your computer. Apple has all of this digital rights management stuff on the iPhone and iPad so that they can control what you put on it, and even disable programs that you've already purchased. They absolutely have the power to grant refunds and turn off the copy that you already purchased. However, I'm not so much for refunds, as I am for ratings. If I spent $10 on someone's completely inaccessible program, at least I could get the satisfaction of sticking a 1 star rating on their app store page. All prospective customers see that, so it might get their attention, and they might decide to do something about it, at least. Right now, even though the app developer hasn't specifically passed over accessibility to spite me or you, I still feel like a sucker for having spent money that I can't get back for something that I can't use. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:10 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi, That is why I suggested a rating system with categories. For example, labeled buttons would be one of the criteria for the rating system. Let the users define accessibility by essentially voting on a few general components that make up over all accessibility for an iPhone app. On May 6, 2010, at 11:06 PM, John J Herzog wrote: I see a problem with this philosophy. Different people view accessibility in different ways. For instance, some people would not consider the workout application posted to this list accessible because of a few unlabeled buttons. Others would be fine with it. Similarly, I have a few games on the IPod, where the introductory screens work with voiceover, and then you turn it off to play the actual game. Action bowling comes to mind. What is apple to do? How should they define accessibility? Do they give all who complain refunds, even though some complaints are more genuine and reasonable than others? Do they say that, if a certain number of buttons aren't labeled, the app is inaccessible? Do they say that, if you cannot play a game with voiceover on, then all blind people should get their money back? I know that it sucks to pay for apps which are unusable by and large. But this accessibility criteria for refunds on apps is going to cause a lot of problems. And, more importantly, I worry that if we have people constantly holding apple to different standards of accessibility, it might sideline any further efforts they put into improving the platform for blind users. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here. John On May 6, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries
Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can be done? I've purchased a few apps that are completely inaccessible. For example, I purchased Korg Electribe, a beat making program, for $10. Can't use it at all. Bryan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Hi, I had recommended a five point accessibility scale on another list. I believe this is the most practical solution. Being that accessibility is so subjective, I think some kind of rating system would work the best. Instead of just choosing a rating for an app like it is now, maybe their can be more of like a questionnaire. For example, 5 accessibility questions would be given. You choose your answer for each on a 1-5 scale. The average of of everyones 5 answers are calculated and displayed in the app store. I imagine it could be displayed with the average of each category of accessibility, then an overall accessibility score. On May 6, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can be done? I've purchased a few apps that are completely inaccessible. For example, I purchased Korg Electribe, a beat making program, for $10. Can't use it at all. Bryan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!… SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can be done? I've purchased a few apps that are completely inaccessible. For example, I purchased Korg Electribe, a beat making program, for $10. Can't use it at all. Bryan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
RE: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can be done? I've purchased a few apps that are completely inaccessible. For example, I purchased Korg Electribe, a beat making program, for $10. Can't use it at all. Bryan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
To be fair here, I'm not trying to help rouse the troops as it were. I completely agree with you, but I'd really encourage people to simply voice these concerns in a polite and amicable way, rather than complaining. I say this, as (no offense to anyone in particular) in my opinion, the blind community just tends to over-react, and get ridiculously up-in-arms over everything much of the time, and rather than making this out to be a situation where Apple is somehow the bad guys, forcing us to pay for apps, or binding and preventing us from having a say as to an app's accessibility, I'd simply propose that this is merely a case of the majority of the market being sighted, and not enough of us voicing these concerns on a regular basis. So rather than a bunch of us flagrantly flying off the handle to the people at accessibil...@apple.com, I'd personally just rather see people carrying on an adult dialogue which can be constructive. Quite simply, the more of us that say something, the more of us that will be heard. Do we want to be heard as over-emotional unstable complainers, or as rational friendly adults trying to bring about positive changes?… I know you know what I mean, so I won't dwell on semantics. Thanks all for reading, and again, let's make our voices heard in the best way possible, K?… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
I just wanted to second what Cara says here and agree. This is also a problem I have with some, not all, in the blindness community, and Cara's thoughts are right on track! :) Olivia On May 6, 2010, at 7:41 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: To be fair here, I'm not trying to help rouse the troops as it were. I completely agree with you, but I'd really encourage people to simply voice these concerns in a polite and amicable way, rather than complaining. I say this, as (no offense to anyone in particular) in my opinion, the blind community just tends to over-react, and get ridiculously up-in-arms over everything much of the time, and rather than making this out to be a situation where Apple is somehow the bad guys, forcing us to pay for apps, or binding and preventing us from having a say as to an app's accessibility, I'd simply propose that this is merely a case of the majority of the market being sighted, and not enough of us voicing these concerns on a regular basis. So rather than a bunch of us flagrantly flying off the handle to the people at accessibil...@apple.com, I'd personally just rather see people carrying on an adult dialogue which can be constructive. Quite simply, the more of us that say something, the more of us that will be heard. Do we want to be heard as over-emotional unstable complainers, or as rational friendly adults trying to bring about positive changes?… I know you know what I mean, so I won't dwell on semantics. Thanks all for reading, and again, let's make our voices heard in the best way possible, K?… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
I see a problem with this philosophy. Different people view accessibility in different ways. For instance, some people would not consider the workout application posted to this list accessible because of a few unlabeled buttons. Others would be fine with it. Similarly, I have a few games on the IPod, where the introductory screens work with voiceover, and then you turn it off to play the actual game. Action bowling comes to mind. What is apple to do? How should they define accessibility? Do they give all who complain refunds, even though some complaints are more genuine and reasonable than others? Do they say that, if a certain number of buttons aren't labeled, the app is inaccessible? Do they say that, if you cannot play a game with voiceover on, then all blind people should get their money back? I know that it sucks to pay for apps which are unusable by and large. But this accessibility criteria for refunds on apps is going to cause a lot of problems. And, more importantly, I worry that if we have people constantly holding apple to different standards of accessibility, it might sideline any further efforts they put into improving the platform for blind users. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here. John On May 6, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually no way to try the program first, we should be able to get a refund if we can't use our purchase. What do you all think? What can be done? I've purchased a few apps that are completely inaccessible. For example, I purchased Korg Electribe, a beat making program, for $10. Can't
Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds
Also, I wonder who's responsibility it is to intigrate access into apps? Is it Apple's? The developers? John also makes great observations about defining accessibility and what apple should do regarding this! Olivia On May 6, 2010, at 11:06 PM, John J Herzog wrote: I see a problem with this philosophy. Different people view accessibility in different ways. For instance, some people would not consider the workout application posted to this list accessible because of a few unlabeled buttons. Others would be fine with it. Similarly, I have a few games on the IPod, where the introductory screens work with voiceover, and then you turn it off to play the actual game. Action bowling comes to mind. What is apple to do? How should they define accessibility? Do they give all who complain refunds, even though some complaints are more genuine and reasonable than others? Do they say that, if a certain number of buttons aren't labeled, the app is inaccessible? Do they say that, if you cannot play a game with voiceover on, then all blind people should get their money back? I know that it sucks to pay for apps which are unusable by and large. But this accessibility criteria for refunds on apps is going to cause a lot of problems. And, more importantly, I worry that if we have people constantly holding apple to different standards of accessibility, it might sideline any further efforts they put into improving the platform for blind users. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here. John On May 6, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Absolutely. Anyone on the list with an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch, please write to complain. It isn't write for Apple to not give us info about an app's accessibility, give us no way to evaluate that accessibility for ourselves, force us to buy the app in order to find out, and then deny us a refund if it isn't accessible. We should either be given a way to know how accessible an app is in advance, or be given the option of a refund if we find that an app isn't accessible after purchasing it. Bryan -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:29 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Accessible iPhone/iPad apps and refunds Hi Bryan; I for one, agree with you whole-heartedly. I've actually been in touch with Apple about this in the past, and my contacts also felt it would be a good idea, however, as yet nothing has seemingly happened with it. I'd encourage you and anyone else interested to email accessibil...@apple.com with these concerns / suggestions. I know this sounds like a blow-off, but it really isn't! lol! I think more of us just need to be nicely and politely making these points heard, that's all, and that email addie is the best way I know, to do it. smile Anyway, I'd surely like this situation to improve as well. Thanks so much for posting!!!... SMiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 6, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: Hi. There are so many apps available. As we know, some are completely accessible, some are accessible with some workarounds, and some not at all. With free apps, this isn't a problem. You install them, check them out, and, if they aren't accessible, you can just delete them. With paid apps, though, the situation is different. There are some accessibility reviews of some apps, but only a fraction of what's available. Since hardly any of the apps offer demos, we must buy the app, and risk that the purchase will be wasted on an app that we can't even use. When the app only costs $0.99, like some iPhone apps, that isn't so bad, but iPad apps can cost $5, $10, and even more in some cases. I think that Apple should take some small steps to accommodate us. Not only is it a sorry situation when one of us purchases an app that we discover to be inaccessible, but, for some people, having a few such experiences will trim back on their willingness to push that buy button in the future. Pressing the buy button should not feel like a roll of the dice. I suggest: 1. The App Store should provide some way for people to rate the accessibility of an app. A 5 star system, similar to how apps are rated in general might be nice. 2. There should be some way that customers can optionally restrict the App Store to showing only accessible applications. If people would like to explore new apps, that's fine, but, if they just want to look at what is known to be accessible, they should have that option. 3. Customers should be able to receive refunds for apps that they can't use. Since the app store provides no indication of how accessible a program is, and there is usually
