RE: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Dave Taylor
Hi
 
Do bear in mind that it can be the speech synth dying. Try another speech
synth and see if you still have the same problems.
 
Cheers
Dave
 
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicolai Svendsen
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 1:26 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4
 
Hi guys,
 
So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
 
Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with
VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also
seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it
happens in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It
mostly seems to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off
speech by moving around such as a long string of text.
 
I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in
particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx
and suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox
pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the
item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy,
then Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to
cut off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
 
I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing
this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't
figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites
and even that was unusual.
 
Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/chojiro 
Twitter http://www.twitter.com/chojiro 
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

I already have. I switched between Alex and the Infovox iVox voices to test 
that theory. Besides, that would also be something introduced in the update as 
that problem was not there before regardless of the synthesizer. I went ahead 
and tried it anyway, though.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Dave Taylor wrote:

 Hi
  
 Do bear in mind that it can be the speech synth dying. Try another speech 
 synth and see if you still have the same problems.
  
 Cheers
 Dave
  
  
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicolai Svendsen
 Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 1:26 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4
  
 Hi guys,
  
 So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
  
 Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with 
 VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also 
 seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it happens 
 in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It mostly seems 
 to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off speech by moving 
 around such as a long string of text.
  
 I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in 
 particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx and 
 suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox 
 pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the 
 item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy, then 
 Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to cut 
 off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
  
 I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing 
 this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't 
 figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites 
 and even that was unusual.
  
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
  
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Anne Robertson
Hello Nic,

I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem to be 
a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the crash log.

When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, but 
it still happens all the time.

It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is going 
to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.

regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem to 
 be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the crash 
 log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, but 
 it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

Never mind that. Looking on the volume itself and not just the user directory, 
I see a lot of VoiceOver crash reports. I take back my statement.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:08 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is going 
 to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem to 
 be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the crash 
 log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Allison Manzino
Hi Nic,

This has happened to me quite frequently as well. VO crashed yesterday during a 
podcast I was recording. It's quite annoying and it takes me a few presses of 
command F5 to get it going again.

Allison

On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi guys,
 
 So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
 
 Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with 
 VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also 
 seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it happens 
 in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It mostly seems 
 to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off speech by moving 
 around such as a long string of text.
 
 I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in 
 particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx and 
 suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox 
 pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the 
 item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy, then 
 Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to cut 
 off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
 
 I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing 
 this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't 
 figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites 
 and even that was unusual.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Cody Hurst
I've been seeing it a lot more so in safari not really else where.
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi guys,
 
 So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
 
 Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with 
 VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also 
 seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it happens 
 in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It mostly seems 
 to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off speech by moving 
 around such as a long string of text.
 
 I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in 
 particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx and 
 suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox 
 pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the 
 item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy, then 
 Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to cut 
 off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
 
 I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing 
 this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't 
 figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites 
 and even that was unusual.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

In that case, you might want to try the latest Webkit engine from
http://www.webkit.org

A lot of those crashes are probably related to the engine itself, and it tends 
to fix a lot of them as that engine is up-to-date and continuously being 
patched.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Cody Hurst wrote:

 I've been seeing it a lot more so in safari not really else where.
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi guys,
 
 So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
 
 Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with 
 VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also 
 seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it 
 happens in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It 
 mostly seems to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off 
 speech by moving around such as a long string of text.
 
 I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in 
 particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx 
 and suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox 
 pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the 
 item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy, 
 then Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to 
 cut off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
 
 I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing 
 this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't 
 figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites 
 and even that was unusual.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Anne Robertson
Hello Nic,

I have a few crash reports, but nothing like the number there should be to 
reflect the times that VO goes silent on me. The past week only shows about 
half a dozen crashes.

Cheers,

Anne


On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Never mind that. Looking on the volume itself and not just the user 
 directory, I see a lot of VoiceOver crash reports. I take back my statement.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:08 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

I guess I'm better off, then. I have one report from today, reflecting the time 
it crashed as well. I guess I can at least send that off. I'd like to see it 
crash once more at least. It might make it easier to see if there's something 
similar between the occurrence of the crashes.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:28 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Nic,
 
 I have a few crash reports, but nothing like the number there should be to 
 reflect the times that VO goes silent on me. The past week only shows about 
 half a dozen crashes.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Never mind that. Looking on the volume itself and not just the user 
 directory, I see a lot of VoiceOver crash reports. I take back my statement.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:08 PM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Søren Jensen
My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, VO 
crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of mine. I 
typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost my speech 
and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that we can't 
start VO again when it crash in that way.
Best regards
Søren Jensen
Mail  MSN:
s...@coolfortheblind.dk
Website:
http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/

Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:

 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is going 
 to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem to 
 be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the crash 
 log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 -- 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine comes up 
after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:

 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, 
 VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of mine. 
 I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost my 
 speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that we 
 can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Anne Robertson
Hello Søren,

I can restart speech when mine crashes by pressing VO-F5 4 times. However, 
these are the crashes that leave no trace.

When VO crashes completely, it restarts itself and leaves a log entry.

Cheers,

Anne

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:

 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, 
 VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of mine. 
 I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost my 
 speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that we 
 can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/

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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Søren Jensen
Where do I find the log entry? When my Vo crashes, it crashes completely and I 
can't get speech when pressing command f5. I've waited for more than a hour 
when listening to an audiobook to see if that helped, but I couldn't start VO 
again... It doesn't happen very often, but it have gone more wors after I've 
upgraded to 10.5.4.
if VO just died for 10 seconds or maybe two minutes, I could live with it. But 
I hate when it completely dies!
Best regards
Søren Jensen
Mail  MSN:
s...@coolfortheblind.dk
Website:
http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/

Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:45 PM skrev Anne Robertson:

 Hello Søren,
 
 I can restart speech when mine crashes by pressing VO-F5 4 times. However, 
 these are the crashes that leave no trace.
 
 When VO crashes completely, it restarts itself and leaves a log entry.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, 
 VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of 
 mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost 
 my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that 
 we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

They're usually in ~/library/logs/CrashReporter and library/logs/CrashReporter. 
They're all timestamped as well.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
AIM: cincinster

On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:

 Where do I find the log entry? When my Vo crashes, it crashes completely and 
 I can't get speech when pressing command f5. I've waited for more than a hour 
 when listening to an audiobook to see if that helped, but I couldn't start VO 
 again... It doesn't happen very often, but it have gone more wors after I've 
 upgraded to 10.5.4.
 if VO just died for 10 seconds or maybe two minutes, I could live with it. 
 But I hate when it completely dies!
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:45 PM skrev Anne Robertson:
 
 Hello Søren,
 
 I can restart speech when mine crashes by pressing VO-F5 4 times. However, 
 these are the crashes that leave no trace.
 
 When VO crashes completely, it restarts itself and leaves a log entry.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
 Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a 
 friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him 
 that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying 
 thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Courtney Curran
Hi,
That happens to me when I'm reading tweets and mail messages. It's really 
weird. You're not the only one.
Courtney
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi guys,
 
 So I wanted to pass this to you guys, too.
 
 Ever since the 10.6.4 update, I've been noticing frequent crashes with 
 VoiceOver. I hope I'm not the only one experiencing this problem. It also 
 seems to be random if you're being a casual observer, meaning that it happens 
 in whichever application I'm using if it feels like doing it. It mostly seems 
 to be if I'm moving very, very fast, however, or cutting off speech by moving 
 around such as a long string of text.
 
 I've been seeing it a lot such as when I'm opening applications in 
 particular. This morning, for example, I started reading tweets in Syrinx and 
 suddenly, VoiceOver just died. Yesterday, I opened up the Infovox iVox 
 pronunciation editor to add some phonetic transcriptions. It was reading the 
 item in the finder while it was already opening. All I heard was busy, then 
 Infovox iVox Pronunciation Editor window, and when I tried to move to cut 
 off the speech concerning the transcriptions table, it died too.
 
 I can't reproduce it, though, which is why I'm hoping someone else is seeing 
 this behavior too. It's much more frequent than ever for me, and I can't 
 figure it out. Previously, VoiceOver only crashed on me on certain websites 
 and even that was unusual.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Courtney Curran
Hi,
Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
Courtney
On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine comes 
 up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, 
 VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of 
 mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost 
 my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that 
 we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Mary Otten
If voice over doesn't come up on its own after a crash, starting up the voice 
over practice guide with control option command f8 then exiting out of there 
will work pretty much every time here.

Mary

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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Chris Westbrook
I find this weird, cause I have experienced hardly any crashes using mail or 
adium.  I had some with safari but since I updated webkit everything is cool.
On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Courtney Currant wrote:

 Hi,
 Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
 Courtney
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine comes 
 up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
 Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a 
 friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him 
 that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying 
 thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread clarence griffin
mine will freeze up when there is an alert. I then have to kill VO then bring 
it up again. Its kind of slow doing that, but it does come back, then I can 
read the alert.

GF


On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Chris Westbrook wrote:

 I find this weird, cause I have experienced hardly any crashes using mail or 
 adium.  I had some with safari but since I updated webkit everything is cool.
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Courtney Currant wrote:
 
 Hi,
 Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
 Courtney
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine 
 comes up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
 Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a 
 friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him 
 that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying 
 thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't 
 seem to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in 
 the crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use 
 Fred, but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Nicolai Svendsen
Hi,

Just in case though, for those who get the crashes, I sent in my two crash 
reports I got today just to see if they can do something with it. It's 
happening a lot more in 10.6.4 than I care to count. At least, it is for me.

Regards,
Nic
Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
Facebook
Twitter
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On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Hai Nguyen wrote:

 I've found that after an alert message, VoiceOver does indeed freeze up even 
 though the audio cues still work. The best way to regain control of VoiceOver 
 is to press the escape key.
 Hope this helps.
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:26 AM, clarence griffin wrote:
 
 mine will freeze up when there is an alert. I then have to kill VO then 
 bring it up again. Its kind of slow doing that, but it does come back, then 
 I can read the alert.
 
 GF
 
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Chris Westbrook wrote:
 
 I find this weird, cause I have experienced hardly any crashes using mail 
 or adium.  I had some with safari but since I updated webkit everything is 
 cool.
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Courtney Currant wrote:
 
 Hi,
 Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
 Courtney
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine 
 comes up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
 Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a 
 friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him 
 that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most 
 annoying thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't 
 seem to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry 
 in the crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use 
 Fred, but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread DJ Nezumi
hi to all.
i was wondering what is this webkit thing? i've near heard of it.
and also how do you send in your crash reports?
thanks
Liam

Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 Hi,

 Just in case though, for those who get the crashes, I sent in my two crash 
 reports I got today just to see if they can do something with it. It's 
 happening a lot more in 10.6.4 than I care to count. At least, it is for me.

 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster

 On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Hai Nguyen wrote:

  I've found that after an alert message, VoiceOver does indeed freeze up 
  even though the audio cues still work. The best way to regain control of 
  VoiceOver is to press the escape key.
  Hope this helps.
 
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:26 AM, clarence griffin wrote:
 
  mine will freeze up when there is an alert. I then have to kill VO then 
  bring it up again. Its kind of slow doing that, but it does come back, 
  then I can read the alert.
 
  GF
 
 
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Chris Westbrook wrote:
 
  I find this weird, cause I have experienced hardly any crashes using mail 
  or adium.  I had some with safari but since I updated webkit everything 
  is cool.
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Courtney Currant wrote:
 
  Hi,
  Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
  Courtney
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine 
  comes up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
  Regards,
  Nic
  Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
  GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
  Facebook
  Twitter
  Skype: Kvalme
  MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
  Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
  AIM: cincinster
 
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
  My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
  Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to 
  a friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to 
  him that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most 
  annoying thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that 
  way.
  Best regards
  Søren Jensen
  Mail  MSN:
  s...@coolfortheblind.dk
  Website:
  http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
  Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
  Hi,
 
  Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one 
  is going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
  regards,
  Nic
  Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
  GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
  Facebook
  Twitter
  Skype: Kvalme
  MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
  Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
  AIM: cincinster
 
  On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
  Hello Nic,
 
  I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't 
  seem to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an 
  entry in the crash log.
 
  When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use 
  Fred, but it still happens all the time.
 
  It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Chris Westbrook
Well I can answer the webkit thing.  It's the engine safari uses to turn web 
pages into text on the screen, basically.  You can download a nightly build at 
http://webkit.org.  Then you run webkit instead of safari.  It seems to work 
much better.
On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:28 PM, DJ Nezumi wrote:

 hi to all.
 i was wondering what is this webkit thing? i've near heard of it.
 and also how do you send in your crash reports?
 thanks
 Liam
 
 Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Just in case though, for those who get the crashes, I sent in my two crash 
 reports I got today just to see if they can do something with it. It's 
 happening a lot more in 10.6.4 than I care to count. At least, it is for me.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Hai Nguyen wrote:
 
 I've found that after an alert message, VoiceOver does indeed freeze up 
 even though the audio cues still work. The best way to regain control of 
 VoiceOver is to press the escape key.
 Hope this helps.
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:26 AM, clarence griffin wrote:
 
 mine will freeze up when there is an alert. I then have to kill VO then 
 bring it up again. Its kind of slow doing that, but it does come back, 
 then I can read the alert.
 
 GF
 
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Chris Westbrook wrote:
 
 I find this weird, cause I have experienced hardly any crashes using mail 
 or adium.  I had some with safari but since I updated webkit everything 
 is cool.
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Courtney Currant wrote:
 
 Hi,
 Mine won't come up either, and I have to restart. It's really annoying.
 Courtney
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine 
 comes up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. 
 Yesterday, VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to 
 a friend of mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to 
 him that I lost my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most 
 annoying thing is that we can't start VO again when it crash in that 
 way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one 
 is going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't 
 seem to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an 
 entry in the crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use 
 Fred, but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: Frequent crashes of VoiceOver since the release of Mac OS X 10.6.4

2010-06-28 Thread Michael Thurman
mine doesn't come up either if it crashes I have had to hard shut down  hold 
power for a few secs and restart the machint to get it back

On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Yours literally won't come back up? Now that's even more strange. Mine comes 
 up after about ten seconds or so and I'm fine on its own.
 
 Regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Søren Jensen wrote:
 
 My Voiceover also crash more often since I've upgraded to 10.6.4. Yesterday, 
 VO crashed in Adium, where I was typing a longer message to a friend of 
 mine. I typed the rest of the message, sended it, wrote to him that I lost 
 my speech and needed to restart my computer. The most annoying thing is that 
 we can't start VO again when it crash in that way.
 Best regards
 Søren Jensen
 Mail  MSN:
 s...@coolfortheblind.dk
 Website:
 http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/
 
 Den Jun 28, 2010 kl. 3:08 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
 
 Hi,
 
 Yeah, I was thinking the same now that I looked at it. Hmm. That one is 
 going to be hard to explain to Apple in that case.
 
 regards,
 Nic
 Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com
 GoogleTalk: chojiro1...@gmail.com
 Facebook
 Twitter
 Skype: Kvalme
 MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
 Yahoo! Messenger: cin368
 AIM: cincinster
 
 On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:
 
 Hello Nic,
 
 I've been having this problem since OS X 10.6.3. However, it doesn't seem 
 to be a VoiceOver crash as such since it doesn't create an entry in the 
 crash log.
 
 When working in English, I don't even use a heavy-duty voice, I use Fred, 
 but it still happens all the time.
 
 It's frustrating not to have some kind of crash log to send to Apple.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 -- 
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 MacVisionaries group.
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