Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
ext Ville M. Vainio wrote: On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Quim Gil quim@nokia.com wrote: My advice to commercial developers is to make a step in the Maemo platform, learn and have fun with it. ? I think this is the most sensible approach, yes. If you have a better advice for commercial developers in Maemo please share it. It seems the original statement is a bit too strong - creating a product for maemo doesn't need to be exclusively for entertainment/learning purposes. If you make your app with Qt, you also have a very good shot at providing a S60 port of the app in the future (with a much bigger installed base). Qt has community support in Maemo, it will get a stronger support in Fremantle and will be officially supported in Harmattan. So again, I think I'm just being consistent with what we have. Don't get me wrong, of course I want to see also commercial developers bringing great applications to Maemo. I also think the best way to get them is to be frank now, invite them to have a look by themselves and concentrate on what they are really looking for: platform, devices, sales and distribution channels. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Quim Gil quim@nokia.com wrote: My advice to commercial developers is to make a step in the Maemo platform, learn and have fun with it. ? I think this is the most sensible approach, yes. If you have a better advice for commercial developers in Maemo please share it. It seems the original statement is a bit too strong - creating a product for maemo doesn't need to be exclusively for entertainment/learning purposes. If you make your app with Qt, you also have a very good shot at providing a S60 port of the app in the future (with a much bigger installed base). -- Ville M. Vainio http://tinyurl.com/vainio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
ext John Holmblad wrote: Quim, are you really serious with your comment My advice to commercial developers is to make a step in the Maemo platform, learn and have fun with it. ? I think this is the most sensible approach, yes. If you have a better advice for commercial developers in Maemo please share it. Do you and Nokia really believe that in today's market environment software development businesses have the luxury of having fun. I think not. I can't speak for Nokia about this topic, but my personal opinion is that there is always a chance to try and learn something new and have fun with it. In fact, many economists say that learning and having fun with new things is an essential part of a business sustainability. I think their focus has to be and will be on creating applications that produce cash flow fast, that is, in timeframes measured in months, not years. Agreed. Since the Maemo platform nowadays hasn't got the volumes or the business infrastructure to produce cash flow fast by licensing software, I think my advice quoted above is correct. One exception that could bring you cash flow (if succeeding) would be to get a deal in the Forum Nokia context, which was also part of my advice in the same paragraph: Getting yourselves introduced to Forum Nokia might help you having some business even before. Nokia may have the luxury of supporting negative cash flow while it invests in and tweaks and has fun with a new hardware platform over a period of several years but software development shops, most of whom are innovative and small businesses do not have the luxury of such time. Agreed. And this is why Nokia is not trying to convince commercial developers to set up a business on top of Maemo nowadays. Perhaps one day this will change, and that day commercial developers will notice. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Quim Gil quim@nokia.com wrote: Hi, Hi Quim, Thanks for taking the time to answer what nearly was flamebait. Nokia opened their platform to encourage developers to contribute their expertise, but their capriciousness and opacity about their hardware roadmap are tolerable only to hobbyists or companies porting software from another platform as a sideline. As much as I love free software and open roadmaps, I must reckon that in the current times transparent hardware roadmaps are not helping companies to sell devices sooner, cheaper or better. For companies like Nokia, the ultimate reason behind hardware roadmap opacity is to sell more and better, which is equivalent to increase more your potential user base. Get more (and happier) users by bringing better products than the competition and get more (and happier) users by managing consumer expectations and media hype. There is another point I would like to stress here. Ever since I have been involved, every so often, I see a rant and it just baffles me. These rants can be about an array of different subjects, but every time, it boils down to the same thing: Some people believe Nokia owes them something. I'm not saying Nokia need not work to keep their customers happy, far from it -- they wouldn't still be in business had they not, but I don't understand how people can even think that Nokia should bow before their every whim and wish. In this particular case, the troll believes that Nokia owes him the assurance that he and his company will be able to develop and sell applications. I'm sorry, but where do your business ideas come from? Yes, you are a Nokia customer, and as such, you have the right to technical support, or software updates, but you are *not* entitled to some unheard of commercial agreement. The NIT is a platform, open as it can be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your agreement with Nokia is that you will develop software, make profit from it, and Nokia will support you. Let me stress this a bit more. If you were a software developer, and you bought the hardware device from Nokia, put your software on it, and then sold the device, yes, you would have a contract that entitled you to get heads up to the EOL of a product. You would most probably also have access to product lifecycles and product updates, so that your company could brace for the next version. But this is not what happens. You buy the product as an end-user. You may not use it as such, as you are a developer, but regardless of that, you still are just that. An end-user. Apple would not justify itself if it discontinued the Mac Mini. Verisign did not send apologies when they stopped issuing md5-based certificates. Miltek did not flame at VW when they discontinued the Golf 3 in favour of the Golf 4. So why would anyone have the right to attack Nokia when they are sticking to their internal product lifecycle? If you see only melodrama in these concerns, then perhaps you have never tried to run a business in the face of such uncertainty. Again, if you don't see how little sense you are making -- from a business standpoint, I do understand your fears as Joe Blogs -- I doubt you should be trying to run a business. You are not a Nokia partner, they are not your hardware providers. You are using their platform to your own interest. Why would Nokia care? Praise the day people realise we are talking to a big product company. Not a hardware manufacturer, not a big brother whose job is to get your business -- or life for that matter -- going. They will do what is profitable for them, and if they're not, they're idiots -- business-wise. Yes I know, I'm a troll as well. Sorry. -- question = ( to ) ? be : ! be; -- Wm. Shakespeare ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
Hi, as far as we no, Freemantle won't run on N810/N800 because of the new UI. The interesting question for 3rd-party developers could be: Does applications written for Diablo run in Freemantle? Which dependencies are deprecated and which new they had to comply. Maybe they could be some not so important for the marketing, but interesting for the developers details about the hardware reported (like HD-camera). For e.g. does it have a hardware keyboard or the default screen orientation.. Regards, Keywan -- Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni http://www.prometoys.net peo...@world:/# apt-get --purge remove capitalism After unpacking world will be freed. You are about to do something potentially beneficial To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as We say!' ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
Hallo, I think you are quite hard to Jeffrey. I am not running a business with NIT, but I have an open source project running. And I love my project, and I like to have a lot of people using it. I think this was the idea of Nokia to open the platform. They want us developers. The realy did a lot of work to support us. And if Jeffrey tells them, all this work is of no use to him, if he has the uncertencies (and to a lower extend this is true for me to, as I am thinking of programming open source games and try to decide for what platform, and I am not feeling this platform is very alive at the moment) Nokia should be happy about this information (and I think they are). I think you got my point ... Detlef Am Freitag, den 30.01.2009, 08:46 + schrieb Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Quim Gil quim@nokia.com wrote: Hi, Hi Quim, Thanks for taking the time to answer what nearly was flamebait. Nokia opened their platform to encourage developers to contribute their expertise, but their capriciousness and opacity about their hardware roadmap are tolerable only to hobbyists or companies porting software from another platform as a sideline. As much as I love free software and open roadmaps, I must reckon that in the current times transparent hardware roadmaps are not helping companies to sell devices sooner, cheaper or better. For companies like Nokia, the ultimate reason behind hardware roadmap opacity is to sell more and better, which is equivalent to increase more your potential user base. Get more (and happier) users by bringing better products than the competition and get more (and happier) users by managing consumer expectations and media hype. There is another point I would like to stress here. Ever since I have been involved, every so often, I see a rant and it just baffles me. These rants can be about an array of different subjects, but every time, it boils down to the same thing: Some people believe Nokia owes them something. I'm not saying Nokia need not work to keep their customers happy, far from it -- they wouldn't still be in business had they not, but I don't understand how people can even think that Nokia should bow before their every whim and wish. In this particular case, the troll believes that Nokia owes him the assurance that he and his company will be able to develop and sell applications. I'm sorry, but where do your business ideas come from? Yes, you are a Nokia customer, and as such, you have the right to technical support, or software updates, but you are *not* entitled to some unheard of commercial agreement. The NIT is a platform, open as it can be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your agreement with Nokia is that you will develop software, make profit from it, and Nokia will support you. Let me stress this a bit more. If you were a software developer, and you bought the hardware device from Nokia, put your software on it, and then sold the device, yes, you would have a contract that entitled you to get heads up to the EOL of a product. You would most probably also have access to product lifecycles and product updates, so that your company could brace for the next version. But this is not what happens. You buy the product as an end-user. You may not use it as such, as you are a developer, but regardless of that, you still are just that. An end-user. Apple would not justify itself if it discontinued the Mac Mini. Verisign did not send apologies when they stopped issuing md5-based certificates. Miltek did not flame at VW when they discontinued the Golf 3 in favour of the Golf 4. So why would anyone have the right to attack Nokia when they are sticking to their internal product lifecycle? If you see only melodrama in these concerns, then perhaps you have never tried to run a business in the face of such uncertainty. Again, if you don't see how little sense you are making -- from a business standpoint, I do understand your fears as Joe Blogs -- I doubt you should be trying to run a business. You are not a Nokia partner, they are not your hardware providers. You are using their platform to your own interest. Why would Nokia care? Praise the day people realise we are talking to a big product company. Not a hardware manufacturer, not a big brother whose job is to get your business -- or life for that matter -- going. They will do what is profitable for them, and if they're not, they're idiots -- business-wise. Yes I know, I'm a troll as well. Sorry. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
ext Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni wrote: Hi, as far as we no, Freemantle won't run on N810/N800 because of the new UI. The interesting question for 3rd-party developers could be: Does applications written for Diablo run in Freemantle? Which dependencies are deprecated and which new they had to comply. The existing applications will run in Fremantle, there is already SDK pre-alpha release that you can use to see many things from Fremantle. The changes are not so big and there will be full Fremantle SDK lot before actual product is in shops. You have time to adapt applications to some changes. Even the UI looks new, application API's have not changed so much at all. As example, really big majority of Qt applications will run unmodified at all. With GTK applications, my experiences are very similar. There will be new API's like Clutter and OpenGL-ES2.0 but it is not mandatory to use them if you don't need them. With Qt, you can use Graphisview without OpenGL acceleration and it will just run faster in Fremantle with OpenGL-ES render. Maybe they could be some not so important for the marketing, but interesting for the developers details about the hardware reported (like HD-camera). For e.g. does it have a hardware keyboard or the default screen orientation.. Next thing would be alpha version of SDK that has most of new API's atc. With the SDK you can develop and test applications. After product release, Forum Nokia will have prototypes available in proto loan service to selected developers. That means that developers will have lot of time to write and test application with SDK and possibility to test it with prototypes before device is in shops. Camera is just typical example that is impossible to test without real device and just for this purpose we have the proto loan service. Kate Alhola Maemo Chief Engineer Technical services and consultancy Forum Nokia Regards, Keywan -- Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni http://www.prometoys.net peo...@world:/# apt-get --purge remove capitalism After unpacking world will be freed. You are about to do something potentially beneficial To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as We say!' ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni wrote: Hi, as far as we no, Freemantle won't run on N810/N800 because of the new UI. The interesting question for 3rd-party developers could be: Does applications written for Diablo run in Freemantle? Which dependencies are deprecated and which new they had to comply. Maybe they could be some not so important for the marketing, but interesting for the developers details about the hardware reported (like HD-camera). For e.g. does it have a hardware keyboard or the default screen orientation.. Whoa! backup. Would someone else please confirm that freemantle will NOT run on the N800 or N810? This is the first that I have noticed this. Thanks, Jason ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Jason Edgecombe ja...@rampaginggeek.com wrote: Whoa! backup. Would someone else please confirm that freemantle will NOT run on the N800 or N810? This is the first that I have noticed this. It is implied that official support won't be there, but it could be made to work: http://maemo.org/news/announcements/first_maemo_5_sdk_release_targeting_platform_developers/ QQQ Maemo 5 comes today as an SDK only since it targets the OMAP3 architecture and no OMAP2 compatibility will be officially provided. The revamped UI relying on graphics acceleration and the new functionality built around the new supported hardware made it too complex to keep the compatibility between both architectures. This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. Maemo SW can't promise commercial quality for such configurations but through maemo.org we are able to collaborate at a community level with technical support, license changes and code. QQQ -- Ville M. Vainio http://tinyurl.com/vainio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Jason Edgecombe ja...@rampaginggeek.com wrote: Would someone else please confirm that freemantle will NOT run on the N800 or N810? This is the first that I have noticed this. It is implied that official support won't be there, but it could be made to work [...] This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. An example of this is Mer: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer It's still in development, and isn't ready for end-users yet, but already allows you to play with some of the new kinetic scrolling Hildon widgets and have fun building up a new Ubuntu Maemo-inspired platform. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Jason Edgecombe ja...@rampaginggeek.com wrote: Would someone else please confirm that freemantle will NOT run on the N800 or N810? This is the first that I have noticed this. It is implied that official support won't be there, but it could be made to work [...] This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. An example of this is Mer: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Mer based on Ubuntu? from the wiki: Mer is a new Linux operating system, built upon a thin base of Ubuntu Jaunty combined with the best open-source elements of Nokia's Maemo platform. Are those open-source elements of Nokia's Maemo platform already coming from maemo 5? Thanks in advance, -- Anderson Lizardo Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia (INdT) Manaus - Brazil ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Anderson Lizardo anderson.liza...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: An example of this is Mer: Are those open-source elements of Nokia's Maemo platform already coming from maemo 5? Yes. As I said, you can already play with the kinetic scrolling goodness of Maemo 5 on an 770 or N8x0 today; through the newer version of libhildon which is in Mer. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
Whoa! backup. Would someone else please confirm that freemantle will NOT run on the N800 or N810? This is the first that I have noticed this. I don't have links handy, but as a lurker on planet and the dev-list I know it's been mentioned several times. It's been a while since I've looked at projected specs for the new device, but significantly increased CPU horsepower, hardware 3D, and accellerometers all vaguely ring bells for me, any of which could be deeply integrated into Fremantle in such a way as to make backporting to older hardware a significant amount of work. I don't recall if there was talk about a Nokia-provided hacker edition of Fremantle. I suspect there won't be, as it didn't gather a lot of community development on the 770 and with projects like Mer creating a community-supported build already, I suspect Nokia will focus on getting them the resources they need to improve their offering. Thanks, Mike Lococo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Fremantle won't run on N800/N810?! (was Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP) )
- Original message - I don't recall if there was talk about a Nokia-provided hacker edition of Fremantle. I suspect there won't be, as it didn't gather a lot of community development on the 770 and with projects like Mer creating a community-supported build already, I suspect Nokia will focus on getting them the resources they need to improve their offering. Yes, there's been quite a lot of talk and it's been decided that Mer is the best way forward. No silly Nokia 'quality' requirements, so the community will be much more capable of bringing the backport to OMAP2 (and other) hardware. Nokia is going to be providing an unprecidented level of support to facilitate Mer.___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Maemo for commercial development (was Re: N810 RIP)
Hi, I understand all you want to know what device(s) come after the N810 and when. The only details we can share now is that more products will come for sure. ext Jeffrey Barish wrote: The rumors are fascinating. I wouldn't call rumors to - Public presentations done by Nokia representatives, from engineers to a vice-president. - 2 unstable releases (the second yesterday) telling already a lot about supported hardware and features. - Significant contributions done already upstream, starting from the omap list in the Linux kernel project. - Dozens of bugs resolved as FIXED targeting the Fremantle release plus an additional bunch of bugs commented as reproducible in Fremantle. - An announced selection of community projects that will get early access to new hardware. All the content visible and linked at http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle comes from official sources. In the meantime, I am nearly ready to start shipping my software but my potential customers have nothing on which to run it, unless they happen to own an N8x0 already. The N810 sales are continuing. The progressive price reduction is business as usual in this industry. Nokia opened their platform to encourage developers to contribute their expertise, but their capriciousness and opacity about their hardware roadmap are tolerable only to hobbyists or companies porting software from another platform as a sideline. As much as I love free software and open roadmaps, I must reckon that in the current times transparent hardware roadmaps are not helping companies to sell devices sooner, cheaper or better. For companies like Nokia, the ultimate reason behind hardware roadmap opacity is to sell more and better, which is equivalent to increase more your potential user base. Get more (and happier) users by bringing better products than the competition and get more (and happier) users by managing consumer expectations and media hype. If you see only melodrama in these concerns, then perhaps you have never tried to run a business in the face of such uncertainty. For what is worth Forum Nokia is being quite frank presenting Maemo today more as a platform for fast prototyping and Linux innovation than a profitable business for application developers. My advice to commercial developers is to make a step in the Maemo platform, learn and have fun with it. This way you will be ready to go when the right time for commercial software comes. Getting yourselves introduced to Forum Nokia might help you having some business even before. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
