Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread Patrick Ben Koetter 
* David :
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> > On May 04, 2012, at 02:10 PM, David wrote:
> >
> > Now start up Mailman, your MTA
> 
> 
> Good up to that point. What is the method for generating aliases for
> Postfix in Mailman 3?

This has changed im MM3. Postfix now delivers ML mails to MM3 via LMTP.
-> http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/LMTP+process

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Terri Oda 

On 12-05-04 3:17 PM, Geoff Shang wrote:
I would just like to restate my plea for the ability to manage Mailman 
without needing javascript.  Note that I'm not saying don't use any, 
I'm merely asking for it to be possible to use without it.


This is totally a reasonable request, but I'd like to point out that 
what George is doing is not really on the management path.  If people 
without JavaScript can't see his graph prototypes ... oh well.  Just put 
up a note saying JavaScript is required for metrics.  Not a big deal as 
long as it doesn't break other functionality.


So... If AJAX is the fastest way to get some initial prototypes going, 
that's a good place to start.  If you want to do something else, go for 
that!  But with the compressed GSoC schedule, I want to make sure that 
George spends most of his time working on on the 90% of the project 
that's faster and fun and interesting, rather than spending inordinate 
amounts of time in that 10% that involves the harder finicky bits like 
testing in IE4.


It's always a good idea to discuss this stuff and to consider backwards 
compatibility, but as an experienced GSoC mentor I've seen a few GSoC 
projects fall off the rails due to starting with the 10% and never 
reaching the 90%.  There just isn't enough time in the 12 weeks.  So as 
one of George's mentors I'm going to encourage him to focus on making 
beautiful things.  No fiddly bits 'till after midterms at the earliest, 
and it is a-ok to just leave some of that stuff for the rest of the dev 
team to figure out later.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread David 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> On May 04, 2012, at 02:10 PM, David wrote:
>
> Now start up Mailman, your MTA


Good up to that point. What is the method for generating aliases for
Postfix in Mailman 3?

This doesn't help me:
http://packages.python.org/mailman/src/mailman/commands/docs/aliases.html

And I can't determine where the output of
# mailman aliases
goes. It doesn't go to stdout or into /etc/aliases (not that I really
expected it to).
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread George Chatzisofroniou 
Hello Geoff,

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Geoff Shang  wrote:
>
> I would just like to restate my plea for the ability to manage Mailman
> without needing javascript.  Note that I'm not saying don't use any, I'm
> merely asking for it to be possible to use without it.
>
> I use lynx as my primary browser, and while general web surfing can be a bit
> tricky these days, it's very quick and useful for doing admin-type things,
> and I for one would like to be able to continue to do so. Certainly I have
> no problems using Mailman 2'.1's interface with lynx, and have been doing so
> for many years.
>
> If my memory serves me correctly, this was generally felt to be a reasonable
> request when I first mentioned it.  I'm sure it's in the archives somewhere.
>

Yes, i also agree with you. That's why i mentioned a "primarily
non-Javascript output".

-- 
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sophron.latthi.com
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Geoff Shang 

On Fri, 4 May 2012, George Chatzisofroniou wrote:


On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:04 AM, George Chatzisofroniou
 wrote:

I don't know how feasible it would be to implement, but if you're
willing to use AJAX, you could simply build up bar and line charts on
the fly, adding "slices" of say 5 users at a time on the right side of
the chart in progress.  That might be cool.  It could be set in a
"viewport" and scrolled if it gets too big for the viewport.


Yes, AJAX can do the job here. I will implement the AJAX bar as you
described, although i think it's better to primarily have a
non-Javascript output.


I would just like to restate my plea for the ability to manage Mailman 
without needing javascript.  Note that I'm not saying don't use any, I'm 
merely asking for it to be possible to use without it.


I use lynx as my primary browser, and while general web surfing can be a 
bit tricky these days, it's very quick and useful for doing admin-type 
things, and I for one would like to be able to continue to do so. 
Certainly I have no problems using Mailman 2'.1's interface with lynx, and 
have been doing so for many years.


If my memory serves me correctly, this was generally felt to be a 
reasonable request when I first mentioned it.  I'm sure it's in the 
archives somewhere.


Geoff.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On May 04, 2012, at 02:10 PM, David wrote:

>Next Questions:
>1. what are the first tests I should perform after starting mailman?

Try creating a mailing list from the command line:

$ mailman create -d myl...@example.com

Subscribe some addresses to mylist.  Edit a file with a list of email
addresses and names using one of these formats, one entry per line:

a...@example.com (Anne Person)
Bart Person 

then run

$ mailman members -a filename.txt myl...@example.com

Now start up Mailman, your MTA and send a message to myl...@example.com.  All
the members you just added should get a copy.  Check your MTA logs and
Mailman's own logs for details or problems.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread David 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

>
> Perhaps it is premature for you to attempt to work with this early
> development release.
>

Yes, it may be. :) But I have not gotten to the point of giving up just yet.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread Richard Wackerbarth 
> I don't have a dev_setup directory. Also, I want to start the Web GUI on
> port 80 for public access via apache.
> 
> The following page is empty:
> How to get Postorius running on Apache and mod_wsgi
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/How+to+get+Postorius+running+on+Apache+and+mod_wsgi

David,

Postorius is just a Django-based website that communicates with MM3.

To deploy it, find, and follow, the directions which apply to any website 
powered by Django.

However, I should warn you that Postorius is not as far along in its 
development as is the core parts that handle mail.
In fact, at this time, there are so many things missing that you will be 
disappointed if you attempt to make the interface publicly visible.

Perhaps it is premature for you to attempt to work with this early development 
release.


Richard

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread David 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David  wrote:

> Next Questions:
> 1. what are the first tests I should perform after starting mailman?
> 2. a tutorial for setting up Posterious?
>
>
Following this guide:
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/A+5+minute+guide+to+get+the+Mailman+web+UI+running
I did these steps:

wget http://www.djangoproject.com/download/1.4/tarball/ -O Django-1.4.tar.gz
tar xzvf Django-1.4.tar.gz

*Question*: could I have instead used
# apt-get install python-django python-django-social-auth

wget
https://launchpad.net/postorius/trunk/1.0.0a1/+download/postorius-1.0.0a.tar.gz
tar xf postorius-1.0.0a.tar.gz

source /opt/mailman3/bin/activate
/opt/mailman-3.0.0b1# mailman start

cd Django-1.4
sudo python setup.py install

# cd postorius/
sudo python setup.py develop

*Question*: How do I test that these steps have worked so far?

Next, the guide (
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/A+5+minute+guide+to+get+the+Mailman+web+UI+running)
mentions:

> Start the development server
>  $ cd dev_setup
> $ python manage.py syncdb
> $ python manage.py runserver
>
> The last command will start the dev server on http://localhost:8000
>
I don't have a dev_setup directory. Also, I want to start the Web GUI on
port 80 for public access via apache.

The following page is empty:
How to get Postorius running on Apache and mod_wsgi
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/How+to+get+Postorius+running+on+Apache+and+mod_wsgi
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread David 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David  wrote:

>
> I also came across this useful tutorial:
> Python Ecosystem - An Introduction
> http://mirnazim.org/writings/python-ecosystem-introduction/
>

Now I found this too:
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/mailman3+in+virtualenv


   - Added by Toshio
Kuratomi,
   last edited by Toshio
Kuratomion
Mar 12, 2012




 * Download all sources by bzr branching::

  - lp:mailman
  - lp:mailmanweb
  - lp:mailman.client
  - lp:django_dev_setup
  - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~flo-fuchs/mailmanweb/django_dev_setup/

* Create virtualenv and install django
 $ virtualenv mm3
 $ cd mm3
 $ source bin/activate
 $ easy_install django

* Import mailman3 sources
 $ cp ~/path/to/source/downloaded .

* Build mailman3:
 $ cd mailman
 $ python bootstrap.py
 $ bin/buildout
 $ bin/test  ## Some seems to be failing

* Start Mailman:
 $ bin/mailman start
 $ cd ..
# Ran into this error when running with sqlite:
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/246867
  Changed to postgres according to docs in DATABASE.rst

* Install mailman client
 $ cd mailman.client
 $ python setup.py develop
 $ cd ..

* Install the mailman web
 $ cd mailmanweb
 $ python setup.py develop
 $ cd ..


* Start the project
 $ cd django_dev_setup
 $ python manage.py syncdb
 $ python manage.py runserver
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] need tutorial for setting up python development environment on Ubuntu please

2012-05-04 Thread David 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> On May 03, 2012, at 09:20 PM, David wrote:
>
> >... I need a good tutorial on setting up the development environment,
>
> For me, it depends on whether you want to develop mm3 or install it.
>

I want to install and run it and play with it like a user. I'm not a python
developer (at least not yet, and not sure if I'll ever get that far).


> If instead you want to run Mailman 3, I recommend using virtualenv and
> skipping buildout.
>

OK. Thanks for the advice.

I'll detail my steps in case it helps someone else. (I also have a few
questions mixed in below.) Here's what I did:

install Ubuntu 12.04
create DNS records
ssh into Ubuntu server
sudo apt-get install build-essential python-dev python-virtualenv
cd /opt/
wget
https://launchpad.net/mailman/3.0/3.0.0b1/+download/mailman-3.0.0b1.tar.gz
tar -xf mailman-3.0.0b1.tar.gz
mkdir mailman3 (for virtualenv - see note below about correcting my
directory names; this should have been named mailman3_venv)
# virtualenv /opt/mailman3/
(New python executable in /opt/mailman3/bin/python)

I do recommend creating an etc/mailman.cfg to customize various aspects of
> Mailman before you start.  Take a look at src/mailman/config/schema.cfg and
> .../mailman.cfg for the default settings.
>

# nano /etc/mailman.cfg
done

sudo apt-get install postfix openssl-blacklist ssl-cert

# nano /etc/postfix/main.cf

* QUESTION *
Are the following paths correct???
transport_maps =
hash:/opt/mailman3/var/data/postfix_lmtp
local_recipient_maps =
hash:/opt/mailman3/var/data/postfix_lmtp

***

After modifying main.cf, be sure to run '/etc/init.d/postfix reload'.
root@li437-28:/etc/postfix# /etc/init.d/postfix reload
 * Reloading Postfix
configuration...   [ OK
]

# source /opt/mailman3/bin/activate
python setup.py install
Finished processing dependencies for mailman==3.0.0b1

NOTE: After doing all this, I see that I named my directories wrong. I
think I'll repeat it and name the extracted tarball directory mailman3/ and
the virtualenv directory mailman3_venv/ next time.


 Now you can run `mailman info` to get some basic information about how your
> system is configured,


(mailman3)root@localhost:/opt/mailman-3.0.0b1# mailman info
GNU Mailman 3.0.0b1 (The Twilight Zone)
Python 2.7.3 (default, Apr 20 2012, 22:39:59)
[GCC 4.6.3]
config file: /etc/mailman.cfg
db url: sqlite:opt/mailman-3.0.0b1/var/data/mailman.db
REST root url: http://mailman3.example.com:80/3.0/
REST credentials: :x



> `mailman start` to start the system, etc.
>

(mailman3)root@li437-28:/opt/mailman-3.0.0b1# mailman start
Starting Mailman's master runner

Cheers,
> -Barry
>

Thank you! That's a great help.

I also came across this useful tutorial:
Python Ecosystem - An Introduction
http://mirnazim.org/writings/python-ecosystem-introduction/

Next Questions:
1. what are the first tests I should perform after starting mailman?
2. a tutorial for setting up Posterious?

Thanks again.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] problem installing Mailman 3.0 beta1 - no var directory created during install

2012-05-04 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On May 03, 2012, at 02:49 PM, David wrote:

>I installed it but I didn't get a var directory at all. (On the chance that
>it is created only after starting Mailman the first time, I tried to start
>it but that didn't work either.) The last line of the installation output

Correct.  The var directory (and database, etc.) don't get created until the
first time Mailman "starts", but my recommendation is to run

$ bin/mailman info

to get that initial file system layout, including the var dir.  You might want
to create your mailman.cfg file first though.

After you've run the info command and seen where it's putting things, adjust
your mailman.cfg file accordingly.  When you're happy with it, then you can
run 'start' to get the runners going.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread George Chatzisofroniou 
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> OK, but these are pretty cheap calculations if I understand Django's
> design correctly.

Yes, these are cheap calculations. Although, the number of
calculations is based on the years of list's existence (e.g. a 10 year
list would need 10 calculations).


> Which design do you think is simpler, in the context of your overall
> plan?

I think it's simpler to just add a year model.

I would like to hear more opinions on this issue.


-- 
George Chatzisofroniou
sophron.latthi.com
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
George Chatzisofroniou writes:

 > > It's not clear to me why year views can't be generated as an aggregate
 > > of monthly data?  This would allow years to start with arbitrary
 > > months without too much redundancy.
 > 
 > Generating the year views from monthly data is some more calculations
 > while displaying the metrics. That's why they should be stored
 > somewhere.

OK, but these are pretty cheap calculations if I understand Django's
design correctly.

Which design do you think is simpler, in the context of your overall
plan?
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Richard Wackerbarth writes:

 > Usually, a few people, who think that they understand the whole
 > problem, make early design decisions that often become obstacles in
 > the future. It is only after the prototype has been developed that
 > others are able to point out weaknesses in the initial design.

I bow to your superior experience in the field (there are no "large
projects" needed in mine! ;-)

 > As such, I advocate for a planned "revise during implementation" to
 > the extent that you schedule a reimplementation for a new
 > generation of the product rather than continually attempting to
 > "add on" to the previous design.

I see.  So the idea is that that's the stage that George is at anyway?
He "built one to throw away", and now it's time to progress to the
reimplementation?  (I forgot about that aspect; indeed, the fact that
he's already built a project similar to this one should speed up the
planning and design stage.)

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread George Chatzisofroniou 
Hello Stephen,


> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:04 AM, George Chatzisofroniou
>  wrote:
>
>> I’m also thinking to rearrange the GSoC schedule a bit. I’ll start
>> writing code on the bonding period,
>
> It's up to your coding mentors, but it's generally not a good idea to
> try to move up the coding stage by too much.  Make sure you have a
> clear spec before you start coding anything, and at least a rough
> sketch of a design.  Without those two pieces, there's no standard to
> evaluate progress, or whether your code is doing the right thing.
>

As wacky mentioned i'm not planning to skip any step of the process.
The idea is to press myself a bit more now, so i can have some more
time to study later. I should have explained myself better.

>> so i can have more time during my
>> university’s exams (starting on half of June).
>
> I'd say just take the time as needed, after negotiating with your mentors.
>
>> Settings
>>
>> The Django app should handle some configuration parameters, like:
>>
>> - Maximum number of the subscribers of a mailing list the user wants
>> to be shown in the charts
>
> I don't know how feasible it would be to implement, but if you're
> willing to use AJAX, you could simply build up bar and line charts on
> the fly, adding "slices" of say 5 users at a time on the right side of
> the chart in progress.  That might be cool.  It could be set in a
> "viewport" and scrolled if it gets too big for the viewport.

Yes, AJAX can do the job here. I will implement the AJAX bar as you
described, although i think it's better to primarily have a
non-Javascript output.

>
>
>> - Month – This model will store total posts and threads for each month
>> - Year – Similar to month model, this one will store total posts and
>> threads for each year
>
> It's not clear to me why year views can't be generated as an aggregate
> of monthly data?  This would allow years to start with arbitrary
> months without too much redundancy.

Generating the year views from monthly data is some more calculations
while displaying the metrics. That's why they should be stored
somewhere.

>
>> Interface to the MM core
>>
>> The app needs to interact with the Mailman core. I think the best idea
>> is to implement a message bus that will send a notification every time
>> a message is sent (the same way an archiver works).
>
> Why not just use the iArchiver interface?
>
> I think it should be possible to have this be a standalone app serving
> the list itself, or be hosted by a particular archive, which wouldn't
> need to be the list host (or even run by the same organization).

Yes, i agree. The iArchiver should be the origin of the interface.

Thank you for your feedback,

-- 
George Chatzisofroniou
sophron.latthi.com
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Richard Wackerbarth 
Steve,

I am in complete agreement with your points about adequate planning.

However, I rarely see large projects that do enough "research" to plan things 
properly from the start.
Usually, a few people, who think that they understand the whole problem, make 
early design decisions that often become obstacles in the future. It is only 
after the prototype has been developed that others are able to point out 
weaknesses in the initial design.  As such, I advocate for a planned "revise 
during implementation" to the extent that you schedule a reimplementation for a 
new generation of the product rather than continually attempting to "add on" to 
the previous design. 

Richard

On May 4, 2012, at 4:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Richard Wackerbarth writes:
> 
>> I will take the blame for any misunderstanding in this area.
> 
> There's no blame to be assigned, really, unless to me for being a
> busybody. :-)  If George is making these plans while consulting his
> mentor, that's what this is all about (but he didn't say that, so I
> stuck my nose in!)  And maybe I misinterpreted the word "coding"
> which, as I continue to explore the GSoC documentation, seems to be a
> catchall for "GSoC work".
> 
> It's just been my experience in supervising economics and business
> students' research (confirmed by a lot of the academic and practical
> literature on managing software development) that people facing a
> scheduling issue tend to skimp on planning, hoping to get lucky with a
> first draft and as a backup, planning to revise during implementation.
> This doesn't usually save time in the end, and often ends with a lower
> quality product.
> 
> How George chooses to accomplish the planning, design, and coding, I'm
> happy to leave up to him (and you).  I just wanted to warn against
> hoping that producing a plan and design more quickly than he otherwise
> would will save time.  Time taken liberally in the early stages will
> conversely probably save time later.

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics

2012-05-04 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Richard Wackerbarth writes:

 > I will take the blame for any misunderstanding in this area.

There's no blame to be assigned, really, unless to me for being a
busybody. :-)  If George is making these plans while consulting his
mentor, that's what this is all about (but he didn't say that, so I
stuck my nose in!)  And maybe I misinterpreted the word "coding"
which, as I continue to explore the GSoC documentation, seems to be a
catchall for "GSoC work".

It's just been my experience in supervising economics and business
students' research (confirmed by a lot of the academic and practical
literature on managing software development) that people facing a
scheduling issue tend to skimp on planning, hoping to get lucky with a
first draft and as a backup, planning to revise during implementation.
This doesn't usually save time in the end, and often ends with a lower
quality product.

How George chooses to accomplish the planning, design, and coding, I'm
happy to leave up to him (and you).  I just wanted to warn against
hoping that producing a plan and design more quickly than he otherwise
would will save time.  Time taken liberally in the early stages will
conversely probably save time later.

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