[Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
[x-posted to an anti-spam list] Hi. This is not specific to mailman, but I had a lot of trouble with it. I am sure I am not the only one, so I figured I'll share. In recent months the problem of moderation, especially with large lists, has become even more significant. The amounts of spam which reach the uncomfortable moderation page is staggering.. but this email is not about the very inconvinient way of mailman moderation (even small changes such as letting me moderate non-members differently would have been amazing!). This email is about spamcop. Spamcop is blacklisting server swhich relay mailing list bounces containing spam. Mailing list bounces are some of the only acceptable bounces left on the Internet, but now that's no longer true. These bounces contain mostly spam and phishing, and bounced back to fake addresses belonging to real people. Therefore, even if Spamcop is especially evil in this case and annoy us to hell and back - they are right. Bouncing back a message which tells a user his original message is held for moderation is now a bad idea if we want to stay out of the black list of spamcop, not to mention to not turn our servers to willing spam conduits (as discussed a few months ago). Gadi. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Umbrella List / Moderation
Greetings, I'm still not clear on the umbrella list function. What I'm trying to do is have a number of sub-lists (different faculty status) to which email to the super-list (all-faculty comprising all of the sub-list names) will distribute. I'd like to allow all sub-list members to send to the super-list and, if possible, allow all domain addresses i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] to send to certain lists. Is this possible? I've tried using the following options without success. On Privacy options...-Recipient filters for each sub-list, add the posting address of the umbrella lis to acceptable_aliases or, if you prefer, set require_explicit_destination to No. -- *** Todd Seeleman, Systems Analyst Penn Graduate School of Education 3440 Market Street, Rm 477email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Philadelphia, PA. 19104-3325 phone: 215-573-8378 *** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from command line
Hi all. I have a user who does not check pending for approvals so long, and now the mailman web interface trows an error (an timeout or resources issue, not shure). The thing is: Can i delete those pending messages from command line? Can i delete or blank a simple file? (its ok if i delete ALL the pending messages) Thanks!! Mailman 2.1.4 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from command line
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Gerardo Herzig wrote: Hi all. I have a user who does not check pending for approvals so long, and now the mailman web interface trows an error (an timeout or resources issue, not shure). The thing is: Can i delete those pending messages from command line? Can i delete or blank a simple file? (its ok if i delete ALL the pending messages) I have a similar issue with a mailing list with over 5K unmoderated messages I need to sift through, and can't load the web interface for it. Gadi. Thanks!! Mailman 2.1.4 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ge%40linuxbox.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] [Fwd: Re: Umbrella List / Moderation]
Sorry. Mailman Version 2.1.9 Greetings, I'm still not clear on the umbrella list function. What I'm trying to do is have a number of sub-lists (different faculty status) to which email to the super-list (all-faculty comprising all of the sub-list names) will distribute. I'd like to allow all sub-list members to send to the super-list and, if possible, allow all domain addresses i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] to send to certain lists. Is this possible? I've tried using the following options without success. On Privacy options...-Recipient filters for each sub-list, add the posting address of the umbrella lis to acceptable_aliases or, if you prefer, set require_explicit_destination to No. -- *** Todd Seeleman, Systems Analyst Penn Graduate School of Education 3440 Market Street, Rm 477email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Philadelphia, PA. 19104-3325 phone: 215-573-8378 *** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] connection refused by lists.
Greetings! I'm a newbie, a user, not a programmer -- and I have a question. A message to one of our lists didn't go through. Does the error message indicate a problem at the server or is it within the program? The list seems to be working fine now. Thanks for any advice you can give. Gretchen Ohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Transcript of session follows - [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection refused by lists.cmwd-uua.org. Message could not be delivered for 3 hours Message will be deleted from queue Final-Recipient: RFC822; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; lists.cmwd-uua.org Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] connection refused by lists.
On 11/10/06, Gretchen at Ladyweave.com | 269-369-1114 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A message to one of our lists didn't go through. Does the error message indicate a problem at the server or is it within the program? The list seems to be working fine now. Thanks for any advice you can give. [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection refused by lists.cmwd-uua.org. Message could not be delivered for 3 hours Message will be deleted from queue This was a problem with the MTA (e.g., postfix, sendmail, exim, qmail, or something else) at lists.cmwd-uua.org, OR with whichever server was trying to talk to it. The latter is probably not the case, but it MAY be due to a network disruption if everything checks out on the MTA level. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Umbrella List / Moderation
On 11/10/06, Todd Seeleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm still not clear on the umbrella list function. What I'm trying to do is have a number of sub-lists (different faculty status) to which email to the super-list (all-faculty comprising all of the sub-list names) will distribute. I'd like to allow all sub-list members to send to the super-list There is a patch to facilitate this, which allows you to reference other lists' memberships in Privacy Options Sender Filters accept_these_nonmembers. and, if possible, allow all domain addresses i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] to send to certain lists. Is this possible? I've tried using the following options without success. You want to add [EMAIL PROTECTED] to accept_these_nonmembers, which should make it a regexp match. As for the umbrella list configuration, not only do you need either acceptable_aliases or !require_explicit_destination, but the umbrella list address will also need to be in accept_these_nonmembers, or a member of the sub lists (but the latter, here, is almost certainly a bad idea. So, stick with accept_these_nonmembers.) Hope this helps, -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
On 11/8/06, Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lukasz Szybalski wrote: I put the original smtplib.py file back in /varlib/python.3/smtplib.py and i get the same problem again. Nov 08 16:41:31 2006 (13973) Low level smtp error: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor, msgid: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nov 08 16:46:31 2006 (13973) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code -1: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor Nov 08 16:46:31 2006 (13973) Low level smtp error: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor, msgid: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nov 08 16:46:31 2006 (13973) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code -1: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor So i guess i will stick with the file i got from debian bug Please post a 'diff -u' between the smtplib.py that works and the one that doesn't work. Lionel says that effectively all he changed in your working version was writing debug output to sys.stderr instead of stdout, and when I diffed Lionel's version with the Python 2.3.4 base, that's the only change I saw, but there must be something else in your case or else simply enabling the debug prints causes the problem because of the writes to stdout, but then what caused the original problem. In any case, I am very interested to see if there is some other change in your original smtplib.py that is causing it to fail. Please not the smtlib.py is the one given to me and smtlib.py.1 is the original one causing the problem. I posted the whole file to debian bug report also. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/lib/python2.3$ diff -u smtplib.py smtplib.py.1 --- smtplib.py 2006-11-03 11:35:49.0 -0600 +++ smtplib.py.12006-11-03 12:41:55.0 -0600 @@ -41,7 +41,6 @@ # # This was modified from the Python 1.5 library HTTP lib. -import sys import socket import re import rfc822 @@ -283,17 +282,17 @@ except ValueError: raise socket.error, nonnumeric port if not port: port = SMTP_PORT -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, 'connect:', (host, port) +if self.debuglevel 0: print 'connect:', (host, port) msg = getaddrinfo returns an empty list self.sock = None for res in socket.getaddrinfo(host, port, 0, socket.SOCK_STREAM): af, socktype, proto, canonname, sa = res try: self.sock = socket.socket(af, socktype, proto) -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, 'connect:', (host, port) +if self.debuglevel 0: print 'connect:', (host, port) self.sock.connect(sa) except socket.error, msg: -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, 'connect fail:', (host, port) +if self.debuglevel 0: print 'connect fail:', (host, port) if self.sock: self.sock.close() self.sock = None @@ -302,12 +301,12 @@ if not self.sock: raise socket.error, msg (code, msg) = self.getreply() -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, connect:, msg +if self.debuglevel 0: print connect:, msg return (code, msg) def send(self, str): Send `str' to the server. -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, 'send:', `str` +if self.debuglevel 0: print 'send:', `str` if self.sock: try: self.sock.sendall(str) @@ -346,7 +345,7 @@ if line == '': self.close() raise SMTPServerDisconnected(Connection unexpectedly closed) -if self.debuglevel 0: print sys.stderr, 'reply:', `line` +if self.debuglevel 0: print 'reply:', `line` resp.append(line[4:].strip()) code=line[:3] # Check that the error code is syntactically correct. @@ -362,7 +361,7 @@ errmsg = \n.join(resp) if self.debuglevel 0: -print sys.stderr, 'reply: retcode (%s); Msg: %s' % (errcode,errmsg) +print 'reply: retcode (%s); Msg: %s' % (errcode,errmsg) return errcode, errmsg def docmd(self, cmd, args=): @@ -475,7 +474,7 @@ self.putcmd(data) (code,repl)=self.getreply() -if self.debuglevel 0 : print sys.stderr, data:, (code,repl) +if self.debuglevel 0 : print data:, (code,repl) if code != 354: raise SMTPDataError(code,repl) else: @@ -485,7 +484,7 @@ q = q + . + CRLF self.send(q) (code,msg)=self.getreply() -if self.debuglevel 0 : print sys.stderr, data:, (code,msg) +if self.debuglevel 0 : print data:, (code,msg) return (code,msg) def verify(self, address): [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/lib/python2.3$ http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=395493 -- Universal Information Crawler http://uicrawler.sourceforge.net/ -- Mailman-Users mailing
Re: [Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from command line
On 11/10/06, Gadi Evron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Gerardo Herzig wrote: resources issue, not shure). The thing is: Can i delete those pending messages from command line? Can i delete or blank a simple file? (its ok if i delete ALL the pending messages) I have a similar issue with a mailing list with over 5K unmoderated messages I need to sift through, and can't load the web interface for it. Gadi. I've added FAQ 4.74 http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.074.htp to answer this. If someone else can look it over for me and double-check that what I've put is accurate (and the best phrasing, etc.), I'd be appreciative. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On 11/10/06, Gadi Evron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not specific to mailman, but I had a lot of trouble with it. I am sure I am not the only one, so I figured I'll share. In recent months the problem of moderation, especially with large lists, has become even more significant. The amounts of spam which reach the uncomfortable moderation page is staggering.. but this email is not about the very inconvinient way of mailman moderation (even small changes such as letting me moderate non-members differently would have been amazing!). This email is about spamcop. Spamcop is blacklisting server swhich relay mailing list bounces containing spam. Mailing list bounces are some of the only acceptable bounces left on the Internet, but now that's no longer true. These bounces contain mostly spam and phishing, and bounced back to fake addresses belonging to real people. Therefore, even if Spamcop is especially evil in this case and annoy us to hell and back - they are right. Bouncing back a message which tells a user his original message is held for moderation is now a bad idea if we want to stay out of the black list of spamcop, not to mention to not turn our servers to willing spam conduits (as discussed a few months ago). Gadi. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this message was. Bearing that in mind, you shouldn't be using moderation as a first-line anti-spam defense. Your MTA should be tagging emails as spam (e.g., using Spamassassin, or something better suited to your particular configuration), greylisting, etc. With a properly configured setup, the spam that actually reaches the moderation interface should be minimal; most of it should be discarded (not rejected) by mailman, at the very least. This is fairly trivial to implement; just set up your MTA to pass mail through spamassassin, and then add a check for the headers it adds to mailman's list configuration, if nothing else. If I'm understanding your concern, the key here is for you to configure your mailman installation to discard known spam messages rather than rejecting them. This is, in fact, one of the options on the moderation screen (you may choose to Accept, Defer, Reject, or Discard messages). Additionally, as far as I know, you CAN moderate non-members differently; although perhaps I don't have the same understanding of that phrase as you do. You can set messages from non-members to be automatically discarded or rejected, as you wish. See Privacy Options Sender Filters generic_nonmember_action -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman and exim4
On 11/9/06, Eric Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, I am back. I am able to send a message out of exim4 from the command line through my webhosts smtp servers. (godaddy). Now I need to install mailman and get them to play together. Well it says the basic install should work right off the bat.(debian) I have a question. It says I need to at least set DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST. What do I set these too. I am sending these messages from my home machine. I get confused forinstances, DEFAULT_URL_HOST is the host part of my list. www.mydomain.com. Well I have a legit host domain called www.mydomain.com. So when I set up list say [EMAIL PROTECTED], how do I send mail to everyone who is a member of the test list? Have you read through the Mailman Installation Manual http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/index.html ? These topics should be covered therein. Once you (mostly) understand what it has to say, we'll be happy to help you address any issues you might run across. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Debian+Mailman+postfix Error with SMTP
On 11/9/06, Lopez, Carlos Andres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nov 09 21:28:33 2006 (9361) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code -1: (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution') Which log file is this from, exactly? Is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the actual address, or have you edited the log entry (when posting to us)? Is the address a list member, or the name of a list? If this is from a mailman log, it looks like your message is getting to the list, but it's failing on delivery, which isn't a postfix-mailman integration issue. It looks, in fact, like 'mydomain.com' is an invalid domain (check your email address in the membership), or your mailman machine might have some kind of DNS issues. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Patrick Bogen wrote: I'm not entirely sure what the point of this message was. Bearing that in mind, you shouldn't be using moderation as a first-line anti-spam defense. Your MTA should be tagging emails as spam (e.g., using Spamassassin, or something better suited to your particular configuration), greylisting, etc. With a properly configured setup, the spam that actually reaches the moderation interface should be minimal; most of it should be discarded (not rejected) by mailman, at the very least. This is fairly trivial to implement; just set up your MTA to pass mail through spamassassin, and then add a check for the headers it adds to mailman's list configuration, if nothing else. That fails the test of reality on lists I run which can be filtered. The problem is so big now simple filtering doesn't do that much good. On those lists that can't (security related with a lot of false positives) not practical. If I'm understanding your concern, the key here is for you to configure your mailman installation to discard known spam messages rather than rejecting them. This is, in fact, one of the options on the moderation screen (you may choose to Accept, Defer, Reject, or Discard messages). Auto-discarding may be an option, but it isn't in this case, as I need to approve a lot of non-subscribed posts. Additionally, as far as I know, you CAN moderate non-members differently; although perhaps I don't have the same understanding of that phrase as you do. You can set messages from non-members to be automatically discarded or rejected, as you wish. See Privacy Options Sender Filters generic_nonmember_action Moderate them differently and still have a choice? Going through modding subscribers and seeing 2-3 posts, and going through non-subscribers and seeing hundreds, simply isn't the same when on the same screen. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Patrick Bogen wrote: Bouncing back a message which tells a user his original message is held for moderation is now a bad idea if we want to stay out of the black list of spamcop Gadi. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this message was. The point *I* got was, even if you successfully filter with every 'safe' method of spam filtering we can imagine, roughly 5-10% of spam will end up reaching mailman, and when mailman sends its 'routine' message back to 'sender', it is generating backscatter that is cause for blacklisting. The only suggestion I can come up with is some simple last-minute filtering within mailman itself: Only send a 'holding' notice if the visible 'From' header matches the Envelope Sender, and if the visibile 'To' address contains the mailman list address. The advantage to handling this within mailman, and not in spamassassin, is that you aren't choosing to discard the mail based on this criteria. You're just deciding whether to send a courtesy e-mail warning of moderation. Of course, you could simply choose not to send any warnings at all. Let people who try to post figure it out for themselves. A good list home page, and/or disclaimers at the bottom of list mail should help with this. - Charles Bearing that in mind, you shouldn't be using moderation as a first-line anti-spam defense. Your MTA should be tagging emails as spam (e.g., using Spamassassin, or something better suited to your particular configuration), greylisting, etc. With a properly configured setup, the spam that actually reaches the moderation interface should be minimal; most of it should be discarded (not rejected) by mailman, at the very least. This is fairly trivial to implement; just set up your MTA to pass mail through spamassassin, and then add a check for the headers it adds to mailman's list configuration, if nothing else. If I'm understanding your concern, the key here is for you to configure your mailman installation to discard known spam messages rather than rejecting them. This is, in fact, one of the options on the moderation screen (you may choose to Accept, Defer, Reject, or Discard messages). Additionally, as far as I know, you CAN moderate non-members differently; although perhaps I don't have the same understanding of that phrase as you do. You can set messages from non-members to be automatically discarded or rejected, as you wish. See Privacy Options Sender Filters generic_nonmember_action -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cgregory%40hwcn.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
In a flurry of recycled electrons, Gadi Evron wrote: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Patrick Bogen wrote: Bearing that in mind, you shouldn't be using moderation as a first-line anti-spam defense. Your MTA should be tagging emails as spam (e.g., using Spamassassin, or something better suited to your particular configuration), greylisting, etc. With a properly This is fairly trivial to implement; just set up your MTA to pass mail through spamassassin, and then add a check for the headers it adds to mailman's list configuration, if nothing else. That fails the test of reality on lists I run which can be filtered. The problem is so big now simple filtering doesn't do that much good. On those lists that can't (security related with a lot of false positives) not practical. I'm not sure how this fails a reality test. Are any anti-spam measures in place currently? If not, mailman is certainly not the place to start. That place is the incoming mail MTA. (If you run your own servers, installing spamassassin shoundn't take too much time. If you're using a hosting server, then they should already have spam filters in place. If they don't/can't you might consider a service that does.) Once the MTA filters out what it can, and tags the suspect spam as such, -then- creating mailman filters does become an almost trivial task. Please search the mailman user's list archives, there have been many discussions about spam handling. z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Carl Zwanzig wrote: I'm not sure how this fails a reality test. Are any anti-spam measures in place currently? If not, mailman is certainly not the place to start. That place is the incoming mail MTA. (If you run your own servers, installing spamassassin shoundn't take too much time. If you're using a hosting server, then they should already have spam filters in place. If they don't/can't you might consider a service that does.) Once the MTA filters out what it can, and tags the suspect spam as such, -then- creating mailman filters does become an almost trivial task. Please search the mailman user's list archives, there have been many discussions about spam handling. z! I cannot afford to spam filter some mailing lists. That's my problem. With those I do, a lot still comes through and I am pretty good at it. Sending the messages back is causing a lot of problem, and should be considered again if it should remain ON by default. Gadi. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Looking for these features
mumtaz wrote: 1. The way I can create new lists using mailman, can I establish a grouping of lists as well? For example set of list for employees of my company and set of list for customers of my company? Eventually I want to customize the UI, so that employees can view only their lists and customers can only view lists related to them. Does that mean running totally separate instances of mailman for employees and customers? It may. You probably need to have two domains (different virtual hosts), one for customers and one for employees. Then you can use Mailman's virtual host capability to separate the two virtual hosts. You can do this with a single Mailman instance, but only if you are willing to live with the restriction that all list names must be unique - i.e. you cant have the same list name in two different domains. This restriction will go away in Mailman 2.2, but currently if you want the same list name in two domains, you need two Mailman instances or some 3rd party patches. 2. How easy is it if I want to customize the UI that let's users subscribe to the list. I want to add new features on top of the given UIs. I want to enable some more questions to be asked on the list subscription page like age of the user, address, etc. It's fairly easy to modify the listinfo template to add additionl input fields, but you also have to modify the CGI to accept the additional information, and create a custom MemberAdaptor to store and maintain that information. It is not difficult if you are a Python programmer, but there are several pieces that have to work together. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
Gadi Evron wrote: I cannot afford to spam filter some mailing lists. That's my problem. With those I do, a lot still comes through and I am pretty good at it. Sending the messages back is causing a lot of problem, and should be considered again if it should remain ON by default. End original message. - This begs the question, why can you NOT afford to filter some lists? I personally cannot imagine a situation where this would be so. I've found that since we implemented gray-listing and spam-assassin and ClamAV on my server, I get maybe one Spam mail slipping through to mailman each month. Most times, it is completely spam-free and the only moderation request I get are for members trying to post to a member's only list from an alternative e-mail address. Before we did all of this, we were getting many thousands of spam mails each day. Right now, those spam mails are still hitting the server but the vast majority are never even received because gray-listing derails about 80 to 90% of them. Of those that do get past that, most are then correctly identified by spamassassin for what they are. You really should use the power of MTA filtering, it will save you a lot of frustration. At the very least, use gray-listing because the vast majority of spam simply won't be resent when a deferral response is sent from your MTA to the sender. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from command line
On 11/10/06, Carl Zwanzig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a coupla notes- The formatting comes out a bit wonky, ie $ cd ~mailman/data $ rm heldmsg-listname-* is one line. Fixed. I'm a more of fan of piping find output to xargs instead of using -exec. find heldmsg -name '*' | xargs rm (it also looks like the base dir is missing in the example.) That seems like it'd be more efficient. Changed. (Fixed.) I don't see how the last example would be any better than the first, you can still fill up the cmd line. Good point. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Dragon wrote: Gadi Evron wrote: I cannot afford to spam filter some mailing lists. That's my problem. With those I do, a lot still comes through and I am pretty good at it. Sending the messages back is causing a lot of problem, and should be considered again if it should remain ON by default. End original message. - This begs the question, why can you NOT afford to filter some lists? I personally cannot imagine a situation where this would be so. Look at it as business which don't filter as they fear to lose clients/business email. That is a secondary problem to me. Lists I can't filter I will suffer for. :) These lists' main posts are reports of phishing scams, spam or malware, which filtering kind of disturbs, but I am not complaining about them. Gadi. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On 11/10/06 9:07 AM, Dragon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really should use the power of MTA filtering, it will save you a lot of frustration. At the very least, use gray-listing because the vast majority of spam simply won't be resent when a deferral response is sent from your MTA to the sender. Unfortunately, the spam engines sending image spam (or at least some of them) are indeed retrying and successfully getting through greylisting. [I can't say how much image spam might not be getting through greylisting.] So the end of greylisting as a useful tool is approaching (I'm surprised it has survived this long). --John -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from commandline
Patrick Bogen wrote: I've added FAQ 4.74 http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.074.htp to answer this. If someone else can look it over for me and double-check that what I've put is accurate (and the best phrasing, etc.), I'd be appreciative. I updated FAQ 4.74 to use bin/discard instead of rm and to explain why. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
John W. Baxter sent the message below at 09:25 11/10/2006: On 11/10/06 9:07 AM, Dragon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really should use the power of MTA filtering, it will save you a lot of frustration. At the very least, use gray-listing because the vast majority of spam simply won't be resent when a deferral response is sent from your MTA to the sender. Unfortunately, the spam engines sending image spam (or at least some of them) are indeed retrying and successfully getting through greylisting. [I can't say how much image spam might not be getting through greylisting.] So the end of greylisting as a useful tool is approaching (I'm surprised it has survived this long). End original message. - True, and there will always be an arms race between spammers and those of us who run servers to try to protect ourselves from unwanted junk. But certain approaches are still quite effective and we should still be utilizing them when appropriate. Hopefully, the good guys will be able to keep ahead of the technology curve to put the screw to the bad guys. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
On 11/10/06, John W. Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the end of greylisting as a useful tool is approaching (I'm surprised it has survived this long). I understand this point. I think that greylisting should persist, in any case, since, if nothing else, it doubles the work a spammer has to do; and on the scale they work, that's a lot. Personally, I'd like to see hashcash become widespread, but I guess that'd be hell for a mailing list. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman and exim4
On 11/10/06, Eric Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am running Debian as I said before so these directions don't apply. No disrespect but I am using this list because I have called myself reading many documents about install of mailman and exim4 on debian and I am at wits ends Do you have anything that closer resembles my current setup? Section 7 http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/customizing.html indicates that configuration options are well-documented in the Defaults.py, which addresses 'It says I need to at least set DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST. What do I set these too.' Section 13 http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node45.html answers 'how do I send mail to everyone who is a member of the test list?' You don't need documentation that's specific to Debian and exim (FWIW, I much prefer postfix to exim). You need documentation that covers the basics of using and administering Mailman, which is what the linked install guide does. -- - Patrick Bogen -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman and exim4
Eric Walker wrote: no one got any ideas? 7 hours and a bit is a rather short time to wait before pinging the list for no response. So when I set up list say [EMAIL PROTECTED], how do I send mail to everyone who is a member of the test list? I believe I answered this in my reply http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-November/054204.html to your original post. If you don't understand that reply, please ask a more specific question. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] connection refused by lists.
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Gretchen at Ladyweave.com | 269-369-1114 wrote: A message to one of our lists didn't go through. Does the error message indicate a problem at the server or is it within the program? The list seems to be working fine now. Thanks for any advice you can give. - Transcript of session follows - [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection refused by lists.cmwd-uua.org. Message could not be delivered for 3 hours Message will be deleted from queue Patrick already responded so I'll just add that it given Connection refused that probably them mail server (not mailman) on lists.cmwd-uua.org was not running. The server admin might have it down for maintenance or some other reason. This is somewhat normal in the scheme of things. What is not normal is a sending server that gives up after a mere three hours. Most mail servers try for four or five days since a system could be down for a few days (e.g. a system dies Friday right after everyone leaves for the day and is not noticed until Monday morning. Also, anecdotal evidence suggest some sites turn off their servers over the weekend). The sender who received this wouldn't by chance by on AOL? I've seen other reports that indicate AOL gives up after three hours. A ridculously short period of time and one that is guaranteed to generate a relatively large number of bounces. -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] message fails to appear in archives
I'm a non-developer with some mailman admin experience, although I've never set up a new list until recently. My question: a few days ago I posted the first message to the list I set up and it does not appear in the archives. I have verified that people on the list received it, however. Why doesn't the message appear in the archive? FYI, this is a cPanel hosted list, so I don't have command-line shell access. -LH -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] FW: connection refused by lists.
Aha. I thought as much. And indeed, the sender uses an AOL account. Thanks, everyone, for the tips! Gretchen -Original Message- From: John W. Baxter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:17 PM To: Mailman Users Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] connection refused by lists. On 11/10/06 7:26 AM, Patrick Bogen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/10/06, Gretchen at Ladyweave.com | 269-369-1114 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A message to one of our lists didn't go through. Does the error message indicate a problem at the server or is it within the program? The list seems to be working fine now. Thanks for any advice you can give. [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection refused by lists.cmwd-uua.org. Message could not be delivered for 3 hours Message will be deleted from queue This was a problem with the MTA (e.g., postfix, sendmail, exim, qmail, or something else) at lists.cmwd-uua.org, OR with whichever server was trying to talk to it. The latter is probably not the case, but it MAY be due to a network disruption if everything checks out on the MTA level. The sending MTA--aside from anything else--has a remarkably short retry limit. There are, for example, a bunch of school districts around here to which they couldn't send mail on weekends as the districts shut their servers down. (The districts we send to most often have stopped doing that.) --John -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] message fails to appear in archives
Lori Houston wrote: My question: a few days ago I posted the first message to the list I set up and it does not appear in the archives. I have verified that people on the list received it, however. Why doesn't the message appear in the archive? FYI, this is a cPanel hosted list, so I don't have command-line shell access. Are other lists on this server archiving properly? Is archive set to Yes on the admin-Archiving options page for this list? -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] message fails to appear in archives
BTW, I did search the mailman FAQ before posting this question ... Lori Houston wrote: I'm a non-developer with some mailman admin experience, although I've never set up a new list until recently. My question: a few days ago I posted the first message to the list I set up and it does not appear in the archives. I have verified that people on the list received it, however. Why doesn't the message appear in the archive? FYI, this is a cPanel hosted list, so I don't have command-line shell access. -LH -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lorijh%40sonic.net Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Lori Houston | Communications Services Writing | Editing | Web Content | Press Releases | Newsletters | Copywriting [EMAIL PROTECTED] | office: 707.528.9902 | cell: 707.569.6029 | fax: 707.324.6094 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Error 550
I'm a newbie...in Linux and mailman too ...Does anyone know why i'm getting this error when i'm trying to send and email to a mailing list? Nov 10 12:35:04 2006 (31798) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code 550: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table. How can I fix it??? Thanks... This was taken from the /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure log Thanks for you help... Carlos A. Lopez Office of Information Technology Organization of American States Washington DC Phone: (202) 458 6341 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] problem with mailman GUI
Im running mailman version 2.1.8 on Redhat ES v4. I have had it running successfully for over 2 years now. Suddenly I am having problems with the gui interface. Everything runs fine for lists that are already created but the problem comes when trying to add a new list. I can add the list through the command line fine but if I use the gui it just comes back to the same page without adding the list. If I add the list by command line then the gui wont save any changes to the configuration. I dont get any error messages that I can find either. I originally thought it to be a permission problem but the older lists have the same permissions. I have tried upgrading to 2.1.9 and downgrading to 2.1.5 but they all act the same. Any ideas on where to look for this problem..thanks in advance! darryl -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] message fails to appear in archives
Mark Sapiro wrote: Lori Houston wrote: My question: a few days ago I posted the first message to the list I set up and it does not appear in the archives. I have verified that people on the list received it, however. Why doesn't the message appear in the archive? FYI, this is a cPanel hosted list, so I don't have command-line shell access. Are other lists on this server archiving properly? Don't know the answer to this ... This is on a server controlled by the cPanel host. How would I check? Is archive set to Yes on the admin-Archiving options page for this list? Yes, that's the first thing I checked. -LH -- Lori Houston | Communications Services Writing | Editing | Web Content | Press Releases | Newsletters | Copywriting [EMAIL PROTECTED] | office: 707.528.9902 | cell: 707.569.6029 | fax: 707.324.6094 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Banning members
I'm aware of the Mailman syntax for banning domains, but I'd like to ban members now whose email address *starts* with a given string! I've had a lot of requests lately from debora to join my list, always followed by something else before the @ and at various domains. I tried following the format [EMAIL PROTECTED] by using [EMAIL PROTECTED] but get an error when I try to submit the changes. Where am I going wrong? Rgds MD -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
Lukasz Szybalski wrote: Please not the smtlib.py is the one given to me and smtlib.py.1 is the original one causing the problem. I posted the whole file to debian bug report also. Your diff and the smtplib.py (the file you refer to above as smtplib.py.1) you posted to the bug report confirm that this file is essentially unchanged from the Python 2.3 base smtplib.py. Therefore, I have to conclude that the symptom you see when you put this in the Python library is due to the debug writes being to stdout instead of stderr. Thus, I think you still have the added self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1) line in SMTPDirect.py. I think if you remove this line and then put the original smtplib.py back in the python library (and to be sure, remove the smtplib.pyc and smtplib.pyo to force a recompile), Mailman will continue to send OK. If this is the case, the original problem will have magically disappeared. The only reason I can think of for this is that the update that caused the problem may have had a corrupted smtplib.pyc and/or smtplib.pyo. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] message fails to appear in archives
Lori Houston wrote: Mark Sapiro wrote: Are other lists on this server archiving properly? Don't know the answer to this ... This is on a server controlled by the cPanel host. How would I check? Well, if you had any other lists on this server, you could look at their archives, but that's obvious enough that I guess you only have the one list. You could try setting up another list as a test and see if that works, but I suspect it won't either. It is possible that Mailman's ArchiveRunner isn't running on the host, but I think further debugging will have to be done by the hosting service and/or cPanel (see http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq06.011.htp). -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Error 550
Lopez, Carlos Andres wrote: ...Does anyone know why i'm getting this error when i'm trying to send and email to a mailing list? Nov 10 12:35:04 2006 (31798) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code 550: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table. How can I fix it??? Thanks... This was taken from the /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure log Thanks for you help... Your MTA is unable to deliver to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address. I am only guessing here for lack of information, but my guess is the post was received and held (check the admindb interface) and the attempt to notify the owner is failing. Depending on your MTA and how it delivers to Mailman, something is missing from the MTA's aliases or the MTA's configuration. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Banning members
Martin Dennett wrote: I'm aware of the Mailman syntax for banning domains, but I'd like to ban members now whose email address *starts* with a given string! I've had a lot of requests lately from debora to join my list, always followed by something else before the @ and at various domains. I tried following the format [EMAIL PROTECTED] by using [EMAIL PROTECTED] but get an error when I try to submit the changes. Where am I going wrong? The '^' character in these expressions serves two purposes. As the *initial* character, it tells Mailman that this is a regular expression and not a literal address, and as part of the regular expression, it matches the beginning of the string. Thus [EMAIL PROTECTED] will be interpreted as a literal email address which is invalid, thus the error. What you need is [EMAIL PROTECTED] or more simply, just ^debora.*, or even ^debora. See http://docs.python.org/lib/re-syntax.html. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Unhide and list users...
I have a list where all the subscriber address are marked hide. I'd like to fetch a subscriber list that I can save as a text file locally if possible. I believe that if I can mass unhide the subscribers and then send a request of some sorts to the list then it will send me the subscribers in a reply. Can someone tell me how to go about doing this please? Thanks - Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unhide and list users...
David Boothe wrote: I have a list where all the subscriber address are marked hide. I'd like to fetch a subscriber list that I can save as a text file locally if possible. I believe that if I can mass unhide the subscribers and then send a request of some sorts to the list then it will send me the subscribers in a reply. Can someone tell me how to go about doing this please? There is no mass unhide function per se. If you have command line access, you can use bin/list_members to get a membership list and you can run the withlist script at the end of this post to unhide all members. Be sure to change the default for new members on the General Options page so they aren't hidden. If you don't have command line access, see http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.062.htp. You can use one of the scripts that retrieve the membership from the web admin interface. Once you have a membership list, you can use the unhide.py script at http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb to unhide the members. Here's a withlist script if you have command line access. Cut here -- Set all members of a list to be 'unhidden'. Save as bin/set_unhide.py Run via bin/withlist -r set_unhide listname from Mailman import mm_cfg def set_unhide(mlist): if not mlist.Locked(): mlist.Lock() for member in mlist.getMembers(): mlist.setMemberOption(member, mm_cfg.ConcealSubscription, 0) mlist.Save() mlist.Unlock() Cut here --- -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Banning members
Mark Sapiro wrote: Martin Dennett wrote: I'm aware of the Mailman syntax for banning domains, but I'd like to ban members now whose email address *starts* with a given string! I've had a lot of requests lately from debora to join my list, always followed by something else before the @ and at various domains. I tried following the format [EMAIL PROTECTED] by using [EMAIL PROTECTED] but get an error when I try to submit the changes. Where am I going wrong? The '^' character in these expressions serves two purposes. As the *initial* character, it tells Mailman that this is a regular expression and not a literal address, and as part of the regular expression, it matches the beginning of the string. Thus [EMAIL PROTECTED] will be interpreted as a literal email address which is invalid, thus the error. What you need is [EMAIL PROTECTED] or more simply, just ^debora.*, or even ^debora. See http://docs.python.org/lib/re-syntax.html. Thanks as usual, Mark. Page bookmarked for future reference. On a totally different tack, is there any list available for future wants for the software? I have a couple of things that I think may be useful, and would like to know if there's anyway I can make them known? Rgds MD -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Feature Requests (was: Banning members)
Martin Dennett wrote: On a totally different tack, is there any list available for future wants for the software? I have a couple of things that I think may be useful, and would like to know if there's anyway I can make them known? Feature requests can be submitted to the tracker at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=1586072group_id=103atid=350103, but we prefer they be added as comments to the new wiki page at http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+2.2. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Banning members
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Martin Dennett wrote: On a totally different tack, is there any list available for future wants for the software? I have a couple of things that I think may be useful, and would like to know if there's anyway I can make them known? Actually, we are all thankful for mailman. But we are users in the trenches using mailman. Maybe we should post a survey to the list for the 3 most desired funciotnality wishes, and then post the results in ten most requested poll yet again, to the public. Let the public vote on what it needs? :) Gadi. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Installation on a current mail system
Just want confirmation before moving forward. We ran a test setup Redhat 8/Sendmail and Mailman is working great. Now I have to repeat the setup on a current linux box that handles our mail scrubbing. So I would like to install Mailman on a production sendmail box that we scrub emails with Spamassassin before passing internally. Will installing Mailman interfere with any of the operations of the current system? We still want the system to handle the mail sent to those designated domains, and I was going to set up the Mailman domains (it handles two) in Sendmail and hosts. Would I need to run virtual servers, or can Mailman co-exist with Sendmail that handles 'regular' mail. Any other caveats I should know about? TIA, Steve _ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo005002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
Patrick Bogen writes: Personally, I'd like to see hashcash become widespread, but I guess that'd be hell for a mailing list. As I understand it, hashcash is just a totally unprofitable use of cycles, which is bearable for personal mail, but substantially increases the burden on mass mail. While such waste for the purpose of creating incentives is often effective, in this case I believe it is not for three reasons. First, spamming is a business, it has revenues with which to defray such costs. My project does not; if hashcash cycles becomes annoying to my host, I'll just stop sending to hashcash users. This is an arms race, it has no physical upper limit on cost. It is not obvious to me that in the end the Commies will turn to democracy in the spam arms race; remember, the Soviet Union broke up because the West out-businessed them. The second is that for a bounded cost[1], you can implement signed mail. With current technology this is something of a cost, but for spammers it's pure cost, for the rest of us it's arguably a fringe benefit much of the time. This is much more effective where usable, because the signature identifies the sender to some degree, which spammers do not want. The third is that hashcash, like challenge-response, has a troublesome analogy to spamming. You're setting up a system, or club if you prefer, that uses outsiders' resources *without their prior agreement* to achieve a personal goal. If you are in a position to get that agreement, why not just use signed mail? The real attraction to hashcash as I understand it is simply that you don't have to educate users, it can be implemented without them even knowing it happens. But until we start educating users, or providing them systems which make their mail usage appear educated to the system, the spam problem will not be soluble (where my definition of solution includes operation of public access mailing lists on a volunteer basis.). Cheers, Steve Footnotes: [1] At any given level of technology. Agreed, this cost will increase over time as acceptable levels of security require more bits in the keys, but with present technology, this is not a price the spammers can afford to pay to drive up costs for the rest of us. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] deleting pending for approval from commandline
At 9:32 AM -0800 11/10/06, Mark Sapiro wrote: I updated FAQ 4.74 to use bin/discard instead of rm and to explain why. And I updated it to do an explicit -print with the find command, since not all versions of the find command will automatically do a -print. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 9:07 AM -0800 11/10/06, Dragon wrote: This begs the question, why can you NOT afford to filter some lists? You must not recognize the name. Gadi is not quite as well known in the security field as Bruce Schneier, but he's close. I recognize the name, and I understand the pain that Gadi is going through. He's running some mailing lists (many of which are private/by-invitation-only, I'm sure), where people discuss a variety of security-related topics, including things like botnet infections, the types of messages that the botnet members will send out, etc In other words, a great deal of the content of certain lists would look pretty much exactly like spam to a dumb tool like SpamAssassin, because it *is* spam. Well, it's actually a discussion *about* spam, with real-world examples. The real problem here is how do you run a mailing list system where Internet security professionals with twenty or thirty years of experience can get together and intelligently discuss a variety of subjects (including spam), while being able to protect that list against modern types of abuse. I'm not sure you can do that with the typical types of dumb tools that are normally discussed on mailing lists like this. SpamAssassin (or something like it) is more than enough for 99.9% of the people out there, but if you really are one of those beyond six sigma types, what do you do? I've found that since we implemented gray-listing and spam-assassin and ClamAV on my server, I get maybe one Spam mail slipping through to mailman each month. Most times, it is completely spam-free and the only moderation request I get are for members trying to post to a member's only list from an alternative e-mail address. That's great, and you're ahead of 99% of the rest of the people on this list. The problem is that Gadi is so far beyond that level that you don't even know his name. Hell, I'm not sure that I can come up to his level, but I do at least recognize his name and the sort of problem that I'm pretty sure he's facing. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on a current mail system
At 5:14 PM -0700 11/10/06, Eric Michaels wrote: Will installing Mailman interfere with any of the operations of the current system? We still want the system to handle the mail sent to those designated domains, and I was going to set up the Mailman domains (it handles two) in Sendmail and hosts. Mailman isn't going to do anything that is not explicitly directed to it. Mailman does not listen on port 25, or any other port, so it's not going to screw up any incoming traffic. Unless you configure your web server to explicitly know about Mailman and to give it certain traffic meeting certain URL patterns, no one will ever be able to see a Mailman-related web page. Unless you configure your mail server to explicitly know about Mailman and to give it certain mail messages, no one will ever be able to send a mail message to Mailman. Would I need to run virtual servers, or can Mailman co-exist with Sendmail that handles 'regular' mail. Any other caveats I should know about? There shouldn't be any additional risk here. No additional virtual servers should be required. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 11:45 AM -0500 11/10/06, Charles Gregory wrote: The point *I* got was, even if you successfully filter with every 'safe' method of spam filtering we can imagine, roughly 5-10% of spam will end up reaching mailman, and when mailman sends its 'routine' message back to 'sender', it is generating backscatter that is cause for blacklisting. Yup. That's an issue to be concerned about. Right now, the standard version of Mailman effectively gives you a limited set of options: 1. Generate a response message to the claimed sender, which might potentially be a response to a forged spam sender, and thus would be backscatter. 2. Don't generate a response, and hold for moderation. 3. Don't generate a response, and throw the message away. So, if you're running a mailing list, you've got to decide which is the lesser evil for you and your list participants, and take the appropriate action when choosing between which particular evil you are going to go with. The only suggestion I can come up with is some simple last-minute filtering within mailman itself: Only send a 'holding' notice if the visible 'From' header matches the Envelope Sender, and if the visibile 'To' address contains the mailman list address. The advantage to handling this within mailman, and not in spamassassin, is that you aren't choosing to discard the mail based on this criteria. You're just deciding whether to send a courtesy e-mail warning of moderation. This is an excellent idea, and I'd like to see this get included as another option. Can you file this an RFE for this on the appropriate page on SourceForge, or in the wiki? Would you have the ability to share with us the code that you developed to implement this function? If so, could you upload that as a patch to the appropriate page on SourceForge, or post it on the wiki? Of course, you could simply choose not to send any warnings at all. Let people who try to post figure it out for themselves. A good list home page, and/or disclaimers at the bottom of list mail should help with this. This may work for some communities, but since Internet e-mail is an inherently unreliable process, the only way a poster can be sure that his message did or did not get delivered is if they get an explicitly acknowledgment (or nack) of some sort. The problem is that we can't confirm the claimed identity of the sender, so sending back a nack could be dangerous. But so could failing to send a nack when we throw away a message. You've got to decide which is the lesser evil for you and your participants, but so far I like your alternative option better than any of the options currently implemented in Mailman. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 8:59 AM -0800 11/10/06, Carl Zwanzig wrote: I'm not sure how this fails a reality test. Are any anti-spam measures in place currently? If you're going to run a list where people talk about spam, and use real-world examples, then you can't do spam filtering on that list -- tools like SpamAssassin just aren't intelligent enough to tell the difference between a real spam message and someone having a legitimate meta discussion regarding some spam message. If not, mailman is certainly not the place to start. That place is the incoming mail MTA. (If you run your own servers, installing spamassassin shoundn't take too much time. If you're using a hosting server, then they should already have spam filters in place. If they don't/can't you might consider a service that does.) For what Gadi is doing, none of the above is relevant. Please search the mailman user's list archives, there have been many discussions about spam handling. Again, you need to understand more about the level at which Gadi is operating. See my other message to Patrick about this. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 9:40 AM -0800 11/10/06, Dragon wrote: True, and there will always be an arms race between spammers and those of us who run servers to try to protect ourselves from unwanted junk. Yup. But certain approaches are still quite effective and we should still be utilizing them when appropriate. Hopefully, the good guys will be able to keep ahead of the technology curve to put the screw to the bad guys. Speaking as one of the good guys, I can tell you that we are losing the war. I've written a series of articles to be published on the LOPSA.ORG website on the current state-of-the-art with regards to fighting spam, and I can tell you that it's not pretty. The bad guys keep getting more and more resources that they can casually throw at any problem, and we keep getting pushed further and further into the corner on the defenses that exist and which can be employed. We're losing, and we're losing badly. And the situation is only going to get a lot worse. Right now, most of the possible solutions I've seen have been as bad or worse than the disease. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 11:49 AM -0600 11/10/06, Patrick Bogen wrote: So the end of greylisting as a useful tool is approaching (I'm surprised it has survived this long). I understand this point. I think that greylisting should persist, in any case, since, if nothing else, it doubles the work a spammer has to do; and on the scale they work, that's a lot. Nope. It's trivially easy for them to track which sites have resulted in a tempfail, and then to retry those messages an hour later. Keep in mind that they have botnets of millions or tens of millions of machines, and they effectively have more CPU cycles and network bandwidth than anyone else on the planet. Trust me, you *WILL* lose. The question is by how much you will lose. And how hard you will fight to continue to tread water at that level. And when they throw ten times as much resources at you next week, are you willing to work ten times as hard to continue to tread water? And when they throw a hundred times as much resources at you the week following, what then? Personally, I'd like to see hashcash become widespread, but I guess that'd be hell for a mailing list. Not scalable for large quantities of legitimate users, and doesn't pose any real significant cost burden for spammers, since they have unlimited CPU power at their disposal. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation
At 10:23 AM +0900 11/11/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second is that for a bounded cost[1], you can implement signed mail. For dozens of years, we've been telling people that once they have enough RAM and fast enough disk drives, the single biggest bottleneck in scaling up large mail systems is the filesystem, and overhead with regards to sychronous meta-data updates. Signed mail causes the CPU of the mail server to have to do expensive crypto calculations that are many, many orders of magnitude beyond anything that had ever been done in the past, on a per-message basis. With signed mail, no amount of RAM, or fast disk drives, or smart filesystems will save you. You need high-speed crypto accelerators for web servers, because of all those encrypted SSL connections which are used for secure transactions. And yet, those are still just the tiniest fraction of all web connections. What happens when SSL is the default? And that's on a per-connection basis, where each connection might be able to represent hundreds or thousands or millions of individual transactions/messages. What happens when you have to do that level of crypto calculations on a per-message basis? At that point, you might as well just shut down all Internet e-mail anyway. With current technology this is something of a cost, but for spammers it's pure cost, for the rest of us it's arguably a fringe benefit much of the time. This is much more effective where usable, because the signature identifies the sender to some degree, which spammers do not want. Actually, spammers have totally unlimited CPU power available to them, so they might be the only ones on the planet who are able to handle doing signed e-mail for all messages. It doesn't matter that the signed message is actually traceable back to a particular person, it just matters that it's signed. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
