[Mailman-Users] Re: Outlook blocked again, but strange response

[Julian H. Stacey]

> From: Lindsay Haisley 

> On top of this, MS Outlook servers are, and have been for a long time,
> a real PITA, notorious for long time for blocking emails on very flimsy
> grounds. To the best of my knowledge, there's no fix for this at the
> list-server level.
>
> The bottom line seems to be that the only email services which work
> consistently with all recipients are those with deep pockets - Gmail,
> Yahoo, Microsoft email, etc. If you have the money, you can buy a
> better reputation for your IP addresses are address group, but it's a
> money game.

Gmail is a major PITA last 12 months, (& yahoo etc long before)
http://www.berklix.org/lists/#bad

Greedy google forces all senders to @gmail to use DKIM/SPF so google
can make more profit by reducing their staff admin cost. At cost
of wasting time extorted from admins of all senders, forced to
research advisability of adding SPF/DKIM to smtp (eg in my case
sendmail) configs.

I'm an unpaid admin with no free time to be stolen to profit google, I
recall articles way back such as "SPF considered bad" but no free
time to research now (as major personal events in train).
gmail are literaly wasting my time & degrading my mailman lists.

All @gmail addresses on berklix.org mailman lists have received
nothing for a long time, blocked by google, & of course I can't
email @gmail recipients to say why.

If I get time, I'll write & post a small diff to hack the front page
of generic Mailman source to add to Welcome pages such as
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo
a note such as:
The above is a generic welcome to all global instances of
Mailman.  To see if there are notes specific to this server
click here ___

I'm interested what independent mailman-users@ think on technical
issues of DKIM/SPF, but `advice' from fined monopolist google Not wanted.
http://www.berklix.net/search/#google ->
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54619148

Cheers,
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT Blocking (was AOL list member not receiving list traffic)

[Julian H. Stacey]

> No known instances of members reporting us as spam.

Un-realised reports are worse, where you only later discover your
domain name or an IP number has been falsely listed.

I searched for a tool to periodically run, to automatically scan
with a list of RBL providers, whether any RBL has silently listed
your domain names or numbers:
http://www.anti-abuse.org/multi-rbl-check/
https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
https://rspamd.com/doc/modules/rbl.html
Any recommendations ?

Opinion:
  Bad enough that some commercial companies profit by dumping their
  admin problems on the innocent far end.  Worse that the far end
  may be an unpaid organisation, so companies steal time from
  volunteer admins.  Worst are fake RBL lists, criminal libelling
  for profit http://berklix.org/~jhs/mail/sorbs/
  
  I have list members who admitted incompetence to unsubscribe
  majordomo, less with mailman.  Worse were the lazy who refused
  to learn, demanding to waste volunteer admin time for manual help.
  Procmail rules discarded their noise.  Worst were malicious faked
  reports to black listers.

Cheers,
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[Mailman-Users] Re: group mismatch

[Julian H. Stacey]

> Also: procmail is antique abandonware that no one should use in 2022, 
> but it can be very hard to replace.

I have a massive time investment in working procmail rules.
Use is not abandoned here. "If it aint broke dont fix it." ;-)

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[Mailman-Users] Re: I'm on Microsoft's blocklist again!

[Julian H. Stacey]

> From: Jayson Smith 

Jayson Smith wrote:
>
> If my server were spewing 
> out spam, I ought to be hitting Spamhaus/SORBS/etc. spam traps left and 

Sorbs list the innocent to extort de-list fees  
http://www.berklix.org/~jhs/mail/sorbs/

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[Mailman-Users] Re: What to do when hosting providers frequently gets listed on an RBL

[Julian H. Stacey]

stinga wrote:
> On 05/06/2021 04:20, Kenneth Kron wrote:
> > My hosting seems to be permanently banned by Yahoo and today Comcast 
> > started bouncing them.
> >
> > I worked on the yahoo problem for a week with tech support and they never 
> > seemed to make any progress.   Yesterday comcast.net  
> > started bouncing with an RBL notice.
> > I???m ready to move my mailing list but I???m not sure where to and I???m 
> > wondering how common this problem is and how to select a provider that is 
> > capable of keeping my mailing list of the RBL???s.
> G'day,
> 
> I went through this issue and managed to get off the RBL's and then back 
> on again.

I've seen similar. Worst are extortionists: Sorbs.


> Do you send out monthly reminders? If you do, do you remove those that 
> bounce? I do.
> In some cases I have removed the monthly reminder.

I append an automatic footer with list URL for unsub.
as many list readers too clueless to use headers eg:
List-unsubscribe: ,

List-help: 

> I believe ISP's are getting stronger on bouncing messages and it maybe 
> that you get caught up in too many bounces. I don't have proof of that.
> 
> I also think people sign up for lists, forget they have done so.
> Some are basically idiots and mark your list email as spam because they 
> can't be bothered to unsubscribe and that ends up blocking an IP.

I've had some claim to be programmers, yet so dumb they didnt know
how to mail Ascii to majordomo@ & so self important they refused
to unsub themselves, who threatened then false registered the lists
server as a spammer.

I migrated from majordomo to Mailman, to stop clueless idiots, lazy
& malicious wasting admin time. I never tried the MajorCool web
interface to majordomo.
PS Sadly, FreeBSD.org are abandonning Mailman-2 for mlmmj !


> I now delete any bounced message, working on the premise if they want 
> the emails they will resubscribe.

That can be inconvenient:
- Mailman automaticly unsubscribes if too many bounces in a period,
  the parameters ara adjustable per list. 
- I use procmail to filter bounce warnings.
- I'm on about ~100 lists, & recently had an outage, i appreciated not 
  being quickly struck off busy lists.

Cheers,
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Julian H. Stacey]

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On Sun, 2020-08-30 at 14:29 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > I wrote a long screed, full of piss and vinegar.  But on reflection,
> > clearly nobody is reading what I wrote earlier, so let's try pithy and
> > dry.  It's still long. :-(
> > 
> > Chip Davis writes:
> > 
> >  > OK guys, what's really going on here?
> > 
> > I don't know.  I can tell you I'm done with Jim.  You'll have to ask
> > him about what he thinks is going on.
> 
> I'm more than happy to detail it.  Stephen and Mark want to move on, and
> get away from mm2, they want everyone else to follow them to mm3. They
> feel that *their* reputations would be hurt if others stayed back and
> continued to work on what they are abandoning. 
> 
> -Jim P.

Risky to state what one believes other people's feeling are.

Mark has been a great help to many with MM2, self included, 
He & all who have helped with MM2 deserve thanks.

Inevitably there comes a time when some want to reduce time on MM2
to spend that time on MM3. Equally, some of us will not want to
have to find time to learn new MM3 tools & reconfig,  so will want
MM2 maintained by whoever can help on that.

Best chance to arrange amicable solution to MM2 maintenance is when 
feelings cool, so a few days pause would probably help.

Cheers,
Julian
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[Mailman-Users] max_message_size description suggested extension

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi all,
On my mailman server I have:
General Options
max_message_size 10K
Content filtering
collapse_alternatives Yes
convert_html_to_plaintext Yes

I posted OK to a list with  
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

size (stripped of all headers & list footer) 4087 bytes

A reply was trapped by Mailman with admin page showing draft reply:
Your message was too big; please trim it to less than 10 KB in size.

The sender had used:
User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.3.7
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

Sender had only added maybe a K or so of text, but I presume her adding
the bloater of HTML via multipart/alternative caused her to be caught.

If that supposition is correct ?
Moving the size checking to after stripping would be nice,
( I dont care how much discardable HTML the server receives from an
  individual, but I do care max size of messages server stores
  in archive, & sends to all on list)
but moving the count would be work.

An easy quick fix would be to extend the description of max_message_size
to inform admins the effect of the limit can be variant, eg extend
From
Maximum length in kilobytes (KB) of a message body.
To
Maximum length in kilobytes (KB) of a message body,
(counting all bulk in multipart/alternative [before 
that bulk may later be trimmed by collapse_alternatives
&/or convert_html_to_plaintext]).

Comments ?

Cheers
--
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Jobs & economy hit by Corona to be hit again by Crash Brexit 31st Dec. 2020
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Editing the options page shown to you when you are not logged in

[Julian H. Stacey]

Flo wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I want to adapt the member options page when I am *not* logged in. For
> example:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/debianflo%40gmx.at

That would be a massive security hole, Or I do not understand what you mean.

To simulate what you are looking at I tried an edited URL
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/options/test/somename%40stolenvotes.uk


> The 'Edit the public HTML pages and text files' option at the admin
> interface

Do you mean at your equivalent of my
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/test


> only contains a possibility to adapt the option page for
> members who are already logged in.

No.  An admin can edit individuals' attributes regardless if user is logged in.

I see eg:
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/test/members
With a table of addresses & attributes, 
unsub

member address
member name

mod

hide

nomail
[reason]

ack

not metoo

nodupes

digest

plain

language



> How can I adapt the page I described first?

It may help people answer if you quote more URLs
& if you want to change attributes for whole list or individual member ?


> Thank you for any help.
> Flo.
> 
> PS: I am using 2.1.19

I'm on mailman-2.1.22

Cheers,
Julian
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 1.6 M died; Lies paid & fined. Treason to threaten parliament to prorogue it.
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[Mailman-Users] list performance under add user load

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi mailman-users@
When I created a petition signature collection site, mailman worked fine
for my small list:
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo/votes-sign

Others since on this list asked if Mailman can support large lists
(real mail lists, not petition signature lists as I unusually used
Mailman for), (with answers inc. "How long's a piece of string?",
aka "What's your back end SMTP capability?" etc).

I can't provide insight on Mailman loads, but see a custom big petition
list just crashed under load (no idea what software & hardware),
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
was crashing repeatedly this morning
 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47652071
my brother wrote me Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:32:02 +
"it was going up by over 100,000 per hour earlier today"
I'v seen:
 43,676 signatures @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 17:10:10 +0100
947,303 signatures @ Thu Mar 21 15:06:31 CET 2019
A load of about a million addresses with confirmation mails a day.
BTW The "Show on a map" links to another site
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
presumably that avoids extra load on signature site, nice functionality, but
beyond remit for us on mailman-users@.

Cheers,
Julian
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Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
 Brexit now minority:  2.1 M now over 18, More Remainers;  1.5 M died, less
 Leavers; 700 K votes Stolen from British Remainers in EU; + 3 M globaly
 dis- franchised; + drift to Remain + avoid chaos.  MPs should urge Queen: 
 Dismiss May, appoint new PM for unity government & 2nd Referendum.  Revoke
 Art. 50, plan better, refile Art.50 later?  http://ExitBrexit.UK/#email_an_mp
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Re: [Mailman-Users] analytics tool for mailman?

[Julian H. Stacey]

Jeffrey Westgate wrote:
> I have a list-owner asking if there is a way for us to provide him " list 
> analytics like number of posts over time, new members over time, etc? "  
> 
> I don' know of any, or how that would even work except for a horrible 
> stroll through the archive...
> 
> anybody got any tools that do analytics?

I'd suggest delay & care in answering/ offering some mail list owner
who just now wants extra analytics from Mailman, real bad timing !

GDPR law hits Europe in 1 hour if CET or 2 maybe in BST, & 
Many people in major through tiny companies & orgs (way beyond
a few of us Mailman admins) are freaking about that, & that law
was [presumably] triggered by misuse of analytics.

IMO (I'm not a Mailman developer), developers can of course
choose what they spend their free time on, but ...

Rather than spending time considering extra analytics capabilities,
right now I think list admins in Europe but maybe beyond too, seeing
trouble coming, might more appreciate tools / docs / scripts /
HowTos whatever, that might make it easier to deal with GDPR demands
to manipulate lists & archives (eg in scenarios others have already
exemplified).

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Julian H. Stacey]

Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
... lots of good examples ... well done !

I too dont think any complainer should have the right to kill a
thread, just cos he/she wrote something they later wish to retract.
Killing a thread would be gross abuse of all other posters' rights,
& would invite worse abuse: anyone could write to a thread knowing
they could leverage it later to kill a whole thread.

My guess is GDPR (& later similar elsewhere) will probably have
been drafted by, & interpreted by mostly politicians & lawyers
clueless of our sort of mail lists, who will not have thought through
most nasty edge cases we could easily present. Most probably they
wont know more than nasty anonymous low grade abusive cases on
commercial [anti-]social web chat forums.

( As a crude test I'd expect most drafters to be top posters,
gratuitously breaking context, not our sort of list people.  (I only
know one lawyer professionaly, & typicaly he top posts, & thinks
tech style bottom posters weird & they should confirm to his Normal
standards, - never occurs to such `Normal' people that they are
un-educated, & are contravening Internet procedures techs evolved
for good reasons. )).

So no faith in GDPR or similar being anything other than drafted
by & interpreted by ignorant `Normal' people who will bring us
nothing but trouble, & who will seek to waste time of unpaid admins.

Hence my intent is to reduce the threat of time wasters as much as
pos.: to draft something that says all those who don't conform to
our norms are breaching the domains terms of unpaid service, & they lose
all rights to waste our time.  It wont be water- tight, but if it
reduces time wasters, it's sufficient.

Most unpaid volunteer admins aren't about to pay their own money
to get lawyers to write water tight clauses to protect us from
wasters, so I see no better option.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
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 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Julian H. Stacey]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote Sun, 13 May 2018 05:39:27 +0900
> Dimitri Maziuk writes:
>  > On 05/11/2018 04:55 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>  > ...
>  > 
>  > I think the basic inconvenient truth is nobody's going to come after you
>  > unless you have money to pay the settlement.
> 
> I think the basic inconvenient truth is that *some*body *will* come

It could have been clearer to have omitted my name Julian S. from above,
as I did not write any quoted text as such.

No direct text from me, just a later 6 word contraction from my
Message-id: <201805112155.w4blt2cw082...@fire.js.berklix.net>
smaller lists, run Free by Unpaid
volunteers
to Dimitri M.'s
Message-id: <49946b69-1e3a-63cb-b497-663e12e87...@bmrb.wisc.edu>
"smaller lists run by Unpaid Volunteers"
to Stephen T's
> I expect the impact on "smaller lists run by Unpaid Volunteers" to

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Julian H. Stacey]

Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> On 05/11/2018 04:55 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> I think the basic inconvenient truth is nobody's going to come after you
> unless you have money to pay the settlement.

Not `Nobody' but `Very few' & then a major pain best pre-deterred.

Most volunteer unpaid admins not working for employers, have no employer
protection, but will still have personal savings they wouldnt want at risk.

The attention to GDPR in an increasingly litigous world will encourage
more complainers & more ambulance chasing lawyers looking for jobs.

There's also the occasional looney that's really malicious: 
   (eg back running majordomo, I saw a few swine report a whole
   domain as a spammer, as they were too lazy to learn to unsubscribe
   themselves, they also emitted all sorts of time wasting annoying
   threats, best warn people before they start )

A generic in distribution + site supplemental link to an empty dummy
would be well worth the few hours it would take to write.
We could start drafting our own under various
http://mailman.YOUR-DOMAIN/mailman/listinfo#legal
& share URLs & ides here, then someone could merge for distribution ?


> I expect the impact on
> "smaller lists run by Unpaid Volunteers" to be about on par with that of
> the right to be forgotten. How many people here had to delete messages
> and rebuild the archives because of it?

Not me yet, I want to deter users from wasting admin time requesting anything.

> And besides, I've done that a few times cleaning up spam that got past
> the filters -- it's not *that* hard.

Good.

Cheers,
Julian
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 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Julian H. Stacey]

Alain D D Williams wrote:
> On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 01:06:15AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > I hate to disagree with everybody, but ...
> > 
> > We need to get an articulare European lawyer, or at least find someone
> > who has studied the subject.  

If you or employer have money & time for that, do share results of
- paying a lawyer to read those 88 EU pages, & answering questions
- paying a programmer for development time for patches to Mailman.
Maybe other major users of Mailman might afford to share costs.  I won't.

It's just EU law so far, but laws & interpretations vary by time &
geography, This list is global, 191 countries in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

Best action for least effort, IMO is first someone to agree to commit a big
default legal disclaimer in the Mailman source distribution, as a
seperate localy served clickable link from top of
http://mailman.YOUR-DOMAIN/mailman/listinfo
That default Legal page would include a further clickable link to a
dummy page for site local extra legal waffle.

Once that's agreed t would be worth some of us workng on content.
My suggestion, approx:

Generic Preamble: Why Mailman Rules Are Necessary & Mandatory To All Users
While Big [Anti-]Social Web providers, may get enough
advertising revenue to employ people to deal with various
legal pains ...

Many Mailman sites have smaller lists, run Free by Unpaid
volunteers with No free time for boring, annoyiny, risky
legal hastles wasting their of time, (eg: logging & adjudcating
internal or external complainers, users & authorities,
discipling posters, editing archives, etc).

Many Mailman sites & list admins would rather close down
their free service rather than have their time forcibly
wasted unpaid to provide & host free levels of "service" &
abuse control, that users might be accustomed to have
provided on larger commercial )often advert paid) [Anti-]Social
web sites, (as first targeted by regulators etc).

Some issues one might then cover in the generic, or leave to local site: eg:
Those from previous posters to this thread +
Liability
Copyright
Secrecy
Security
Posting means irrevocable publishing
No right to use lists if you waste unpaid admins time.
Incitement to this & that
Right to inform authorities
Non obligation of admins to have to waste time monitoring/
censoring etc.
Anti hate crime/ adjitation laws V. free speach 
(eg As considered in Germany, reported in: Economist Jan
13-19th 2018 Page 21 "Freedom & its discontents")
site owner doesnt necessarily agree views of archived posters etc 
Policy if members of a by default private archived list vote to
make their archive public ?  What if someone had
posted, archived, then left list, sees it public,
& now objects ? )
How to even technicaly & legaly establish objector is same
person (or their rep. or inheritor or purchaser of copyright
of initial postera or litigant against poster, or recipient
of court order against poster ?
Local server operator & global Mailman org disclaim liability,
& no insurance to tempt lawyesr to sue (another can of worms ;-)

Optionaly & asynchronously while some are drafting a generic legal page:
A python programmer (or HTML editor, depending where) could
add a switch so new users had to agree before joining
list[s].  Whether switch should be per list or global, to be
decided by who does the work. Switch might be a null string,
updated to latest date when terms agreed. ?

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Possibly OT: GDPR and list servers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi, Reference:
> From: Andrew Hodgson 
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 17:22:12 +

Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone in the EU come across the GDPR guidelines in the context of 
> Mailman?  We are a charity and run Mailman as part of that with some high 
> traffic email lists.  I am getting a lot of conflicting information regarding 
> whether we can even continue to do this in the current climate, most of it 
> coming from half baked documents or different people's opinion, so I wanted 
> to put it out there to see if there is anything that the community may have 
> that we can use or help with in a co-ordinated way.

The 88 page source:
 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32016R0679=EN

Linked from:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation

GDPR seems the latest government imposed plague ** to consume
business time unpaid, along with VAT etc.  Bigger companies can
afford it, but for some small companies it's last nail in the coffin.

** Remember the ISO 9000 certification plague ?  When industry
threw out good equipment that wasn't ISO 9000; & even banks bored
us they too were ISO 9000 method compliant. 

I may put something like this at top of
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo
  GDPR: 88 pages of PDF this unpaid admin has no time to read.
  Mail lists & web are run Free. You pay nothing. We are paid nothing.
  If you object Unsubscribe Yourself.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Sample of an Uncaught bounce notification

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi, Reference:
> From: Mark Sapiro <m...@msapiro.net>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:36:50 -0800

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/30/2018 07:48 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > 
> > Mark Sapiro wrote:  Fri, 12 Jan 2018 10:10:34 -0800
> >>
> >> Thank you for your report. In this case, the message that is an
> >> "unrecognized bounce" is not an actual bounce of a list message. It is a
> >> message (looks like spam)
> > 
> > Thanks Mark,
> > It's not spam, but a bilingual German & English change of address,
> > presumably from an auto responder from a subscribed address (I checked).
> 
> 
> Thank you for the clarification.
> 
> 
> ...
> > Thanks. At berklix.org I have no time for subscribers who consume
> > list owners' time with auto responders, I like mailman to auto
> > detect automatic response noise, & count & auto unsubscribe continuing
> > noisy subscrbers.
> > 
> > In case the sample is of use I will leave it here for a bit:
> > http://berklix.com/~jhs/tmp/mailman/uncaught_bounce_notification/1
> 
> 
> It's hard enough to recognize all the various non-compliant messages
> which are actually bounces of list mail and extract the bouncing
> address(es) from them.
> 
> While I sympathize with the problem of autoresponders replying to the
> list or the list-bounces address, to try to actually recognize such
> messages as what they are and attribute them to the actual list member
> is a task too daunting for me to consider.
> 
> For autoresponses to the list, you could use header_filter_rules to
> match things like auto-submitted or auto-replied and discard such
> messages, but that won't work for messages to the -bounces address.
> 
> You can chose to forward such messages to the list owners or ignore
> them,

OK, good idea, I'll see what I can set up to ignore


> but to ask Mailman to determine the responsible list member and
> score a bounce is more than I'm willing to try to do.

Thanks, sure, no problem.
Just posted it in case it might have been an easy case to catch.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Sample of an Uncaught bounce notification

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:  Fri, 12 Jan 2018 10:10:34 -0800
> On 01/12/2018 07:43 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Is this live sample of an Uncaught bounce notification useful to
> > forward to developers to extend pattern matching.
> > 
> > http://berklix.com/~jhs/tmp/mailman/uncaught_bounce_notification/1
> 
> 
> Thank you for your report. In this case, the message that is an
> "unrecognized bounce" is not an actual bounce of a list message. It is a
> message (looks like spam)

Thanks Mark,
It's not spam, but a bilingual German & English change of address,
presumably from an auto responder from a subscribed address (I checked).
as per
From: Dave Dowdy <dddo...@tripled.de>

> sent directly to the gea-chat-bounces@...

Which I assume it got from list header of previous post to list:
Errors-to: gea-chat-boun...@mailman.berklix.org
Sender: "Gea-chat" <gea-chat-boun...@mailman.berklix.org>

> address. This happens from time to time, but short of Mailman trying to
> recognize spam sent to the -bounces address, there's nothing we can do,
> and spam recognition and filtering is better done at the incoming MTA level.

OK, I accept that spam filtering is best left to other tools,
but this is not spam, but an auto responce from a subscribed address,
so if mailman could recognise it automaticaly it would be nice.


From: Grant Taylor  Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:16:46 -0700 (19:16 CET)

> > Is this live sample of an Uncaught bounce notification useful to
> > forward to developers to extend pattern matching.
> > 
> > http://berklix.com/~jhs/tmp/mailman/uncaught_bounce_notification/1
> 
> I highly doubt it.
> 
> The bounce that is in the email you linked to looks to be more an 
> auto-reply than an actual bounce.
> 
> The message that Mailman is considering to be an uncaught bounce does 
> not have any of the typical hallmarks of any DSNs or MDNs that I've seen.
> 
>   - It is a single text/plain, not the expected multipart/report.
>   - It is auto-replied (vacation), not auto-generated (failure).
>   - It looks like a message that a human wrote (in two languages.)
>   - It has an In-Reply-To header, which I've never seen in DSNs.
> 
> My opinion is that this is the exact type of use case for a bounce 
> message to be escalated to a human.

Thanks. At berklix.org I have no time for subscribers who consume
list owners' time with auto responders, I like mailman to auto
detect automatic response noise, & count & auto unsubscribe continuing
noisy subscrbers.

In case the sample is of use I will leave it here for a bit:
http://berklix.com/~jhs/tmp/mailman/uncaught_bounce_notification/1

Cheers,
Julian
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[Mailman-Users] Sample of an Uncaught bounce notification

[Julian H. Stacey]

Is this live sample of an Uncaught bounce notification useful to
forward to developers to extend pattern matching.

http://berklix.com/~jhs/tmp/mailman/uncaught_bounce_notification/1

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Julian H. Stacey]

Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> On 2017-10-01 22:23, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> > On 9/29/2017 11:34 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> >> (mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)
> > 
> > I don't think that Mark mentioned it, but 2.1.12 is -painfully- old (as 
> > is centos 6.9) and centos packages often lag way behind the 
> > corresponding source versions.
> > 
> > If you need to stick with 6.9, I would consider ditching the centos 
> > package and installing the current mailman from source. Otherwise, can 
> > you move to a more modern Linux and more recent mailman?
> 
> Mailman's been been trouble- and maintenance-free for us since we 
> switched from whatever-that-perl-thing-was-called all those years ago, 
> and it never occurred to me it'd something as silly as abort the running 
> op because my browser timed out.

Though the consequences of timeout were unfortunate, & Mailman would
benefit from patching, I wouldn't blame Mailman, as you first wrote:


> a few days ago I made a mistake (?) of uploading a list of ~7000
> addresses into the "bulk subscribe" box.

Just delete the question mark: Yes it Was a silly mistake !


> Now that I know, I'll consider 
> "upgrading" -- to the university-run lyris: I might as well outsource 
> the whole thing.

Better adopt the normal procedure for free source projects:
Write & submit patches to project, to fix your problem.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Julian H. Stacey]

> Question: what is mailman actually doing? Is it waiting for all the
> retries and bounces before it updates the subscriber list? Or has it
> failed and I need to re-do the whole thing?

Look in /usr/local/mailman/logs/* /var/spool/mqueue/
or whatever your local equivalent paths are

Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad bounce_matching_headers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/30/2017 05:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > 
> > 2.1.24 has defaults 0 300.  My most troublesome list had max 5/week =
> > member_verbosity_threshold: 5
> > member_verbosity_interval:  604800  
> > which may have occasionaly triggered correctly, but at least one
> > of the shunted people was someone who very rarely posts so at least that
> > shunt was unintended by traffic criteria.
> 
> 
> With the bug, the shunting will occur whenever a member's moderate flag
> is set for verbosity. The exception occurs after the flag is set in the
> attempt to log the fact.
> 
> Note that with the above settings on the list flagging doesn't require
> >5 posts to this list within a week, but >5 posts combined to all lists
> with member_verbosity_threshold > 0.

I hadn't realised that.  Explains why I saw so many shunts. 
I've reverted my lists to defaults.  Thanks.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad bounce_matching_headers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/30/2017 08:36 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >> It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.
> > 
> > Yes, it's missing.  Well analysed without seeing it, Thanks !  
> > So I patched just that line in.  
> > Mailman 2.1.22 source misses that line. 2.1.23 2.1.24 have it.
> 
> 
> This is a bug introduced in 2.1.21, never noticed and inadvertently
> fixed in 2.1.23. Presumably, it was never noticed before now because it
> was introduced with the member verbosity feature and only triggered if
> Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> member_verbosity_threshold is
> set greater than the default 0 and a "verbose" member is actually set to
> moderated.

2.1.24 has defaults 0 300.  My most troublesome list had max 5/week =
member_verbosity_threshold: 5
member_verbosity_interval:  604800  
which may have occasionaly triggered correctly, but at least one
of the shunted people was someone who very rarely posts so at least that
shunt was unintended by traffic criteria.


> > 2.1.23/NEWS has "Bug Fixes and other patches" ... SpamDetect.py
> 
> But that is in the 2.1.16 section of NEWS.

Oh yes, I hadn't noticed it was in an old section.
So this is a till now undocumented old fix :-)

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad bounce_matching_headers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/29/2017 03:59 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
> > Now I have:
> > # Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> > # circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> > bounce_matching_headers = """
> > # Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> > to: fri...@public.com
> > message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> > from: l...@listme.com
> > from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
> > 
> > ## Bounce options
> > before it was
> > # Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> > # circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> > bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are 
> > comments.
> > to: fri...@public.com
> > message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> > from: l...@listme.com
> > from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
> 
> Actually, the only difference between the two is "Now" has a leading
> blank line which won't make any difference as blank lines are ignored.

OK,


> >> What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?
> > 
> > /usr/local/mailman/logs/error
> >   (Aside: I also spotted a few other unassociated errors such as Hostile
> >   listname: & fixed pages that pointed to non existant local Mailman list 
> > names)
> > 
> > All my remaining errors now seem to be the same sort:
> > 
> > NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> > 
> > Aug 23 13:37:16 2017 (82399) SHUNTING: 
> > 1503488012.441064+20509f89ec545c49966a4f1d747c804ea1df5852
> > Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Uncaught runner exception: global name 
> > 'syslog' is not defined
> > Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in 
> > _oneloop
> > self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in 
> > _onefile
> > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, 
> > in _dispose
> > more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, 
> > in _dopipeline
> > sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 136, 
> > in process
> > syslog('vette',
> > NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> > 
> > Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) SHUNTING: 
> > 1503601003.748515+0146d084002ddd93cacadc41656c7632efc83301
> > 
> > /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py line 136
> > syslog('vette',
> > '%s: Automatically Moderated %s for verbose postings.',
> >  mlist.real_name, sender)
> > 
> > Line 34:from Mailman import mm_cfg
> 
> 
> That and the next few lines should be
> 
> from Mailman import mm_cfg
> from Mailman import Errors
> from Mailman import i18n
> from Mailman import Utils
> from Mailman.Handlers.Hold import hold_for_approval
> from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
> 
> 
> It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.

Yes, it's missing.  Well analysed without seeing it, Thanks !  
So I patched just that line in.  
Mailman 2.1.22 source misses that line. 2.1.23 2.1.24 have it.

2.1.23/NEWS has "Bug Fixes and other patches" ... SpamDetect.py
I'd best upgrade from 2.1.22 to 2.1.24 when I can monitor traffic after.  

I checked in case anything else missing, but all seems OK :-)
  I compared 2.1.22 & 2.1.24, all Handlers/*.py , & SpamDetect.py is
  the only one varying between versions with Mailman.Logging.Syslog .
  Various other Handlers/*.py do not have Mailman.Logging.Syslog
  in 2.1.22 & 2.1.24, but this quick check passes:
cd /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers
grep -l syslog *.py > ~/tmp/1
grep -l Mailman.Logging.Syslog *.py > ~/tmp/2
cmp ~/tmp/1 ~/tmp/2
  (But I don't know Python, & not considered other directories, includes, libs).

Thanks Mark!

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad bounce_matching_headers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi Mark, thanks for reply.
PS you'r doing a great job answering so many of us :-)

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/25/2017 06:29 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Hi mailman-users@python.org
> > I hope I may have solved some postings being shunted on a few of my lists,
> > necessitating occasional
> > cd /usr/local/mailman; unshunt qfiles/shunt
> > 
> > I discovered 3 lists had missing '\n', shown with
> > cd /usr/local/mailman/lists; config_list -o - ListName
> > bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> 
> 
> What is the rest of this up to the terminating """?

Ah yes, I see what you mean, Its not a '' line, but a """ block:
Now I have:
# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
bounce_matching_headers = """
# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
to: fri...@public.com
message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
from: l...@listme.com
from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""

## Bounce options
before it was
# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are 
comments.
to: fri...@public.com
message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
from: l...@listme.com
from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""

## Bounce options

So fixed, but I guess that wasnt the cause of the shunts. 
Especially as I rcall a shunt on one of the other lists that didnt have that 
damage.


> > Fixed with 
> > cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; config_list -o ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> > vi  ~/tmp/ListName ; config_list -i ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> > & I hope the shunting will stop.
> > 
> > I did autopsy snapshots of /usr/local/mailman before & after last unshunt,
> > if anyone feels like telling me what to look for.
> 
> 
> What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?

/usr/local/mailman/logs/error
  (Aside: I also spotted a few other unassociated errors such as Hostile
  listname: & fixed pages that pointed to non existant local Mailman list names)

All my remaining errors now seem to be the same sort:

NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined

Aug 23 13:37:16 2017 (82399) SHUNTING: 
1503488012.441064+20509f89ec545c49966a4f1d747c804ea1df5852
Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Uncaught runner exception: global name 
'syslog' is not defined
Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in 
_oneloop
self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in 
_onefile
keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, 
in _dispose
more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, 
in _dopipeline
sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 136, 
in process
syslog('vette',
NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined

Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) SHUNTING: 
1503601003.748515+0146d084002ddd93cacadc41656c7632efc83301

/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py line 136
syslog('vette',
'%s: Automatically Moderated %s for verbose postings.',
 mlist.real_name, sender)

Line 34:from Mailman import mm_cfg
Mailman/mm_cfg.py has no syslog
So I'm searching for syslog in my FreeBSD /usr/ports/mail/mailman 
Got a bit lost maybe this might be FreeBSD specific,
Added maintainer of the FreeBSD ports wrapper in case of a hint ?


> > Unfortunately the corrupt bounce_matching_headers lines in configuration
> > were undetected by these automatic checks 
> > cd /usr/local/etc/rc.d; ./mailman stop ; ./mailman start 
> > cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_db -a
> > cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_perms
> 
> 
> If bounce_matching_headers contains an invalid line, there should be
> entries in Mailman's 'config' log like
> 
> 'bad bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
> LINE
> 
> or
> 
> bad regexp in bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
> REGEXP (cause: ER

[Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad bounce_matching_headers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi mailman-users@python.org
I hope I may have solved some postings being shunted on a few of my lists,
necessitating occasional
cd /usr/local/mailman; unshunt qfiles/shunt

I discovered 3 lists had missing '\n', shown with
cd /usr/local/mailman/lists; config_list -o - ListName
bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.

Fixed with 
cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; config_list -o ~/tmp/ListName ListName
vi  ~/tmp/ListName ; config_list -i ~/tmp/ListName ListName
& I hope the shunting will stop.

I did autopsy snapshots of /usr/local/mailman before & after last unshunt,
if anyone feels like telling me what to look for.

Unfortunately the corrupt bounce_matching_headers lines in configuration
were undetected by these automatic checks 
cd /usr/local/etc/rc.d; ./mailman stop ; ./mailman start 
cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_db -a
cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_perms

The errors probably derive from a fumbled edit by me using an older mailman.
I'll do more visual inspection on my most troublesome list.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.

[Julian H. Stacey]

"Steve Wehr" wrote:
> That's the best theory I have heard so far to explain the facts. 
> 
> The user's in question, who are being unsubscribed without asking to be, are
> people who like the mailing lists they are on, and would not be flagging
> emails from the list as spam. Now their ISP might, but they wouldn't. The
> list owners swear to me that these people are friends who want their emails.
> 
> Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails sent
> by mailman (in the msg_footer field: 
> "Click this link to unsubscribe:
> %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s=1=1" 
> 
> I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
> themselves, so I have removed the "=1" part of the URL so they
> will have to manually confirm.
> 
> Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
> unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?

Those list members may have forwarded some posts to acquaintances,
those 3rd parties may have clicked those links mostly
by accident.  I have received stuff like that quite often from
people (regardless what mail manager was) Some people are clueless
thus forward without pruning. Some careless, some time pressured,
& some 3rd parties will click Anything.

Andy C's idea is good: Track a couple of cases in apache (or other httpd) logs .

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Purging old archives over 7 years old

[Julian H. Stacey]

Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I have a 12year old mailman server which is absorbing 650gb of expensive disk 
> space. Is there any feature that would go through each list's archives and 
> delete emails over say 7 years old?   (or maybe even only 3 as we do a yearly 
> backup going back a decade).

I've no idea if mailman has own special tools for that,
standard Unix tools can find tools that use the Unix find command, eg
echo "Learn find, dialects vary per Unix."
man find 
cd /usr/local/mailman/bin 
echo "Get an idea where to look:"
find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find | more
find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find \
| grep -v /archives/ \
| grep -v /lists/ \
| grep -v /logs/ \
| grep -v /messages/ \
| grep -v /templates/ \
| grep -v /tests/ \
| more
echo "Ignore ./cgi-bin/* binaries."
vi -c/find `find bin/* scripts/* -type f | xargs grep -l find`
echo "Also consider ./Mailman/*/*.py[c] files"

Or more simply:

cd /usr/local/mailman/archives
find . -type f -name \*.html | more
./private/pc532/index.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/00.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/date.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/subject.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/author.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/thread.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/01.html
./private/pc532/2017q2/02.html

so eg
rm -rf ./private/pc532/2007*

find . -type f -name \*.html | xargs ls -l > ~/tmp/dates_to_browse
find . -type f -name \[0-9\]\*.html
find . -type d -name 2012q\* | more
find . -type d -name 2012q\* | xargs rm -rf

Find is very powerful.  Read 
man find
before you use find,
use 
more
before you use
rm
Do a backup before anything. 

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Suggestion: Add a new binary flag: "Discard [or bounce] Sender Posts

[Julian H. Stacey]

Top posting is bad. 
Failing to indent prior text with "> " is bad.
Corrected below:

Gretchen R Beck wrote:
> Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Hi mailman-users@python.org
> > Suggestion: Add a new binary flag: "Discard [or bounce] Posts From Sender
> > http://berklix.org/~jhs/help/majordomo/#discard_sender
> > 
> > Reason: A mailman list member got his address book harvested by a spammer,
> > twice spammed a mailman list I run, I removed list member, asked
> > member to rejoin with an address spammer did not know was subscribed
> > to list.  Another list member suggested I could instead personaly
> > moderate all future mail from the spammer harvested address.
> > http://berklix.org/~jhs/help/majordomo/#harvested
> > 
> > PS (ignore "majordomo" in URLs, I just havent moved text yet.)

> Couldn't you just do individuals subscribers  as a spam filter within the 
> Privacy options?

No.

- There's no automatic individual linkage between eg
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/test/privacy/spam
  & list member entries in eg
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/test/members

- Privacy options are controlled by admin, not list members.
  For multiple reasons in 
http://berklix.org/~jhs/help/majordomo/#harvested
  the intent is to Avoid burdening admins to waste time for indivduals,
  turning their discard bits off & on.

- Intent is to empower members to disable & enable their personal discard
  options when they choose (perhaps just enabling for a few minutes if they
  normaly just read a list & rarely have something to post) .

  Those who still continued to emit spam could be removed as before, 
  but admin would also instead have the extra option of enabling
  list member's Enable Transmit Discard, & it would be in the right
  place where list member could personaly, without admin help Disable
  again to post, if wanted.

Summary:
In eg http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/test/members/list
next to column "mod" there would be a 2nd column eg "self discard".
- "mod" would as before be set by admin to block & store for review.
- "self discard" would discard posts from member, set by member.

Cheers,
Julian
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[Mailman-Users] Suggestion: Add a new binary flag: "Discard [or bounce] Sender Posts

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi mailman-users@python.org
Suggestion: Add a new binary flag: "Discard [or bounce] Posts From Sender 
http://berklix.org/~jhs/help/majordomo/#discard_sender

Reason: A mailman list member got his address book harvested by a spammer,
twice spammed a mailman list I run, I removed list member, asked
member to rejoin with an address spammer did not know was subscribed
to list.  Another list member suggested I could instead personaly
moderate all future mail from the spammer harvested address.
http://berklix.org/~jhs/help/majordomo/#harvested

PS (ignore "majordomo" in URLs, I just havent moved text yet.)

PPS Thanks to Mark S & others for replies 22 Mar on "compare lists setup"
still not got back to that - world spins too fast ;-)

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup

[Julian H. Stacey]

jdd wrote:
> Le 22/03/2017 à 01:38, Julian H. Stacey a écrit :
> > "Hirayama, Pat" wrote:
> >> I think that config_list is what you want:
> >> config_list -o list1config list1
> >> config_list -o list2config list2
> >> diff list1config list2config
> > Thanks to jdd for asking, & Pat for answering,
> > I too am using this to debug a troublesome list list.
> and if you want to get rid of comments
> http://dodin.info/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AfficherUnFichierSansLesCommentaires

Thanks, Contains:
 cat /etc/sysconfig/cron | egrep -v "^[[:space:]]*$|^#"
 egrep -v "^$|^#" file

Testing with csh, " was not delimiting (Illegal variable name) so '
 cat /etc/crontab | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*$|^#'

I tried to get an ideally short RE but man egrep is terse, & lacks examples:
https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=egrep=0=0=FreeBSD+11.0-RELEASE+and+Ports=default=html

 cd /usr/local/mailman/lists
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|^$'# OK, but not ideal
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|$' # Empty.
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]'# Blank lines remain.
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]|^$' # OK
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]{0,}[#$]' # Blank lines remain.

Does some other Unix have a better worded or more verbose RE definition,
more examples ?

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup

[Julian H. Stacey]

"Hirayama, Pat" wrote:
> I think that config_list is what you want:
> 
> config_list -o list1config list1
> config_list -o list2config list2
> diff list1config list2config

Thanks to jdd for asking, & Pat for answering, 
I too am using this to debug a troublesome list list.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Failing https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/01/2016 04:48 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Hi postmas...@python.org
> > cc: mailman-users@python.org
> > 
> > I sent this to webmas...@mail.python.org per request of your web page
> > 
> > "Julian H. Stacey" wrote:
> >> Hi webmas...@mail.python.org
> >> FYI
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce
> >> Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23
> >>
> >> We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> >>
> >> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
> >> traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but 
> >> the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. 
> > 
> > I got this inapproprate automatic junk back:
> > 
> >> Sender: "Webmaster" <webmaster-bounces+jhs=berklix@python.org>
> >>
> >> READ THIS!  (If you want help.)
> > 
> > No I dont want help. So noise skipped.
> > Your site asked for help.  Then your site discarded the help you had 
> > requested.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry about that. The message about contacting the webmaster is
> generic, and is not appropriate for mail.python.org. I'll fix that.

Thanks Mark.

> > PS This also fails:
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> 
> 
> It works for me.

Yes, these work here too now:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce

> Can you be specific about the time this occurred?

Yes, decrement typing time of maybe 2/3 minutes from my ~/mail/sent/ entry
which has 
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 12:26:18 +0100
Subject: bug: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-announce/jhs-list%40berklix.org
To: webmas...@mail.python.org

Sorry I omitted date.

The error was still present after the auto bounce from
webmaster@, when in mail #2 I added 
cc: mailman-users@python.org with
& then for completeness also checked & failed on
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
2nd mail was sent:
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:48:24 +0100

> For the last 10 hours or so (from about 06:00 until 16:30 UTC) there was
> a permissions issue in the error log. There is no traceback there, but
> that may be because of the permissions.

Yes my accesses were inside that window.

Thanks for all the time you devote to mailman !

Cheers,
Julian
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[Mailman-Users] Failing https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi postmas...@python.org
cc: mailman-users@python.org

I sent this to webmas...@mail.python.org per request of your web page

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but the 
webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. 


"Julian H. Stacey" wrote:
> Hi webmas...@mail.python.org
> FYI
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce
> Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23
> 
> We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> 
> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
> traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but the 
> webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. 

I got this inapproprate automatic junk back:

> Sender: "Webmaster" <webmaster-bounces+jhs=berklix@python.org>
> 
> READ THIS!  (If you want help.)

No I dont want help. So noise skipped.
Your site asked for help.  Then your site discarded the help you had requested.

PS This also fails:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users

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Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] stopping cross posting?

[Julian H. Stacey]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/10/2016 05:44 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> > 
> > Not sure if I'm using the correct terminology.
> 
> 
> You are.
> 
> 
> > People send messages to a list I run as well as other lists that I have
> > nothing to do with.
> > 
> > 
> > When people reply to the message sent to other lists the replies go to
> > my list as well as the list they replied to.
> 
> 
> If the person replying does a reply-all and doesn't remove the lists of
> which she is not a member from the recipients.
> 
> 
> > Is there a way to stop this apart from asking people to only send the
> > message to one list at a time?
> 
> 
> Attempting to train your list members is futile[1]. What you can do is
> set Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> max_num_recipients to 2.
> This will cause any post with 2 or more direct (To: and Cc:) recipients
> to be held and then you can reject those posts. Whether this is more or
> less burdensome than rejecting the non-member replies from the
> cross-posted lists is something only you can decide.
> 
> Also this creates another problem. If, as we strongly recommend, your
> list doesn't munge Reply-To:, and your user's MUAs don't offer a
> reply-list option, they probably want to reply-all to list posts which
> will cause their replies to be held too.
> 
> Bottom line: I feel your pain, but I don't have a satisfactory solution.
> 
> [1] My experience with lists whose members are not email wonks is that
> attempts to alter member's behavior only result in their thinking you're
> a jerk and don't modify their behavior.

max_num_recipients is an an interesting option
(not in majordomo-1.94.5_8 I used before Mailman)

Re. [1] - Yes !!  I use:
   Privacy Options > Sender Filters > generic_nonmember_action: Discard

Draconian, but stops spammers & wasters, help avoids need for list
moderators, & saves list owner time - some list members can be truly awful.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Siblings list usage ?

[Julian H. Stacey]

Thanks for your reply Mark, very useful,

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 09/25/2016 02:32 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > 
> > On mailman lit configs, On event-announce@ I asserted default
> > moderated bit on all new & existing members of event-announce@, &
> > removed moderated bit on individual organisers.
> 
> 
> This is not a secure way to restrict posts to event-announce because
> anyone can post by spoofing the address of an unmoderated member whose
> address is known by virtue of having posted to the list.

Yes; Spoofing hasn't been a problem here so far thanks,
(perhaps as most lists for technicaly competent here are
open to all members umoderated anyway; Mostly it's just non
tech. lists here are announce- only, to block noise many
lazy & clueless. I had administrivia filters turned on in
majordomo & now with mailman, I needed to add to MJ regexp
filters, so if I do with MM, I'll hope to contribute back
to MM devs.


> See the
> sections "How to restrict the list so only authorized persons can post:"
> and "How to post to the announcement list:" at
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030685>.
> 
> However, this may not be viable in your case depending on the logistics
> of distributing the lists poster password to the authorized posters.

Yes, not viable here, many event organisers on the non tech lists
woundn't cope inserting a password in header.  So later, if I have to.


> > My main problem:
> >   No one on event-announce@ can now respond to event-org@ with 
> >  "Count me in for event! / Who is organiser next week? etc"
> 
> 
> Add '@event-announce' to accept_these_nonmembers of the event-org list.
> This will allow anyone who is a member of event-announce, and not a
> member of event-org to post to event.org without moderation. This will
> not affect event-org posts from a member of event-org.

OK Found under 
http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/admin/event-org/privacy/sender
Non-member filters. 

> > My lesser problem:
> >   When someone joins event-org@ I have to manually remove moderator
> >   bit from their personal membership entry in event-announce@ (&
> >   re-assert if they leave).
> 
> 
> You could add @event-org to accept_these_nonmembers of the
> event-announce list. This would allow any member of event-org to post to
> event-announce, but it is subject to the same spoofing vulnerability as
> noted for 'un-moderation', and members of event-org who are not members
> of event-announce won't receive event-announce posts.

OK Thanks, Done, last bit no prob. I have (up to now) required
all members of *-org@ to be on *-announce@ (but I think per your post
below I'll switch to include event-announce@ traffic to event-org@)

I asserted wrong record via wrong box on web form first go,
but then confirmed I have right one with this check:
cd /usr/local ; \
  mailman/bin/dumpdb mailman/lists/event-org/config.pck | grep accept_these
{   'accept_these_nonmembers': ['@event', '@event-chat'],


> > Are Sibling lists a solution? How please ?, I've never used them yet.
> 
> 
> Sibling lists may help some of this. If you add event-org@... to
> regular_include_lists of event-announce that will solve the potential
> issue of event-org members who are not members of event-announce not
> receiving event-announce posts.
> 
> So, there are choices depending on whether or not you are concerned
> about unauthorized posts to event-announce by spoofing authorized senders.
> 
> If you aren't concerned:
> Add '@event-announce' to accept_these_nonmembers of event-org.
> Add '@event-org' to accept_these_nonmembers of event-announce.
> Add event-org@... to regular_include_lists of event-announce.
> Ensure that anyone who is a member of both event-announce and event-org
> is not moderated on event-announce or posts to event-announce with an
> Approved:  header. Easiest is to ensure members of event-org
> aren't members of event-announce.
> 
> If you are concerned:
> Add '@event-announce' to accept_these_nonmembers of event-org.
> Do not add '@event-org' to accept_these_nonmembers of event-announce.
> Moderate everyone on event-announce and authorized posters can post to
> event-announce with an Approved:  header, instructions for
> which can be posted to the event-org list if its archives are private.

Thanks Mark :-) If you ever visit Munich, there's a bunch of lists
on http://berklix.org where you can find me to buy you a beer :-)

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, BSD Linux Unix Sys Eng Consultant Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#stolen_votes
---

[Mailman-Users] Siblings list usage ?

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi mailman-us...@mail.python.org
I recently moved 50 lists from majordomo to mailman (succesfuly, thanks :-).

Question: Under majordomo I had various pairs of lists, eg
  event-announce@
Large list, low traffic, event announcements
none but organisers could post.
  event-org@
Small list, free unmoderated discussion among organisers,
all on event-announce@ could post feedback such as event
bookings back to organisers.

My majordomo list configurationss included:
 event-announce.config
restrict_post = event-org other-event-org .domain-trusted-posters
 event-org.config
restrict_post = event-announce event-org other-event-org \
.domain-trusted-posters

On mailman lit configs, On event-announce@ I asserted default
moderated bit on all new & existing members of event-announce@, &
removed moderated bit on individual organisers.

My main problem:
  No one on event-announce@ can now respond to event-org@ with 
 "Count me in for event! / Who is organiser next week? etc"
My lesser problem:
  When someone joins event-org@ I have to manually remove moderator
  bit from their personal membership entry in event-announce@ (&
  re-assert if they leave).

Are Sibling lists a solution? How please ?, I've never used them yet.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Linux Unix Sys Eng Consultant Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#stolen_votes
--
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