Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
At 10:07 PM -0500 2004-10-20, texas critter wrote: But the same error message over multiple mailings for *all* AOL list members over a week or more would indicate that it is correct. Maybe. Remember that I used to work there. With shared hosting, it's generally true, even of webhosts that don't want to host spammers, they often don't pay enough attention to their resellers' customers and will end up hosting spammers who get the server's IP address blacklisted. That's certainly true enough. Absolutely! And anyone who's looking to sign up with a webhost should find out their IP ranges and check them *before* signing up. To the degree that this is possible, yes. One useful criteria in choosing a hosting provider would be whether or not they have signed up for the feedback loop service from AOL, and can give you a summary of recent reports. I also recommend that anyone with a dedicated server sign up for the feedback loop as well. Unfortunately, that's only something you can do after-the-fact, at which point it may be too late. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
I don't think so, Mark. This is an announce-only list, and the sender is non-US, I think on a dialup. Let's say the sender's IP or ISP is on the blacklist. Even though the list mail is finally coming from my server, couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john No. The message from AOL is that the IP address of the mail server your list is being sent from is blacklisted, not the sender of the message. If you're on shared hosting, not a dedicated server, you need to talk to your webhost and find out if they're on AOL's feedback loop and if they're actively nuking spammers. That's not quite right, I don't think, because if the sender uses Squirrelmail on my server, his messages are accepted at places where they are otherwise blocked. Mine is a personal sever. I am a newbie, but I'm using Postfix/Debian and it is not an open relay. I personally have not had any problems being blocked anywhere, I've used dnsbl lookups and been OK, and have used available open-relay tests and been OK. We only have problems when my non-US friend sends mail to the list (or to certain domains that apparently have him or his ISP blocked). This sender is a good guy - a missionary that is only sending mail to his supporters - nothing unsolicited. His only problems are with AOL and one non-US domain. Thanks any other comments. - john -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
But the same error message over multiple mailings for *all* AOL list members over a week or more would indicate that it is correct. Maybe. Remember that I used to work there. Brad's right here. I've dealt with this stuff and AOL enough to be able to confirm they don't always have their act together. it's gotten better over the last year or so, mostly, I think, because they're shedding subscribers at a huge pace and shrinking down to a size their infrastructure and staff can actually get a handle on. But whenever AOL acts up for me and users complain, I always tell them the same thing -- to move to a competent ISP. AOL's got a tough job, given their size and the sheer volume of spam that they have to fight off. but they've done a lousy job of dealing with it, and it's a job that badly impacts their users (and they don't tell their users what they do or give users a chance to evaluate their actions, unlike places like Earthlink). And they've done a horrible job of teaching their users how to use the system. I finally got tired of constantly getting bogus spam reports and feeling like AOL was making me responsible for teaching their users how to use the system -- instead, I tell them to move to a competent ISP instead I've given up trying to fix AOL's problems for them. They're just not worth the hassle to me any more. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Oct 21, 2004, at 3:56 AM, John Fleming wrote: are otherwise blocked. Mine is a personal sever. I am a newbie, but I'm using Postfix/Debian and it is not an open relay. AOL also blocks email from servers living in IP spaces known to be dialup or in the cable modem or home DSL ranges in many cases, because so much spam comes zombied home computers. Their position is you should be using your ISP's SMTP machines to send e-mail, not your personal machine, so if you're on a consumer DSL line or cable modem line, that could well be the cause of the blockage. And frankly, these days, I think they have a point. It's one reason I've always run my home off of a SOHO line, not a personal line. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
How do you sign up for the AOL feedback loop? Finding out after the fact is better than not knowing at all. Thanks, Jeff D -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
At 11:16 AM -0400 2004-10-21, MCV Webmaster wrote: How do you sign up for the AOL feedback loop? Finding out after the fact is better than not knowing at all. Read the FAQ entry that was referenced, which includes a link to the AOL page on this subject. Or go to the web page that was referenced in the original error message, which also includes a link to the same page. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
John Fleming wrote: I don't think so, Mark. This is an announce-only list, and the sender is non-US, I think on a dialup. Let's say the sender's IP or ISP is on the blacklist. Even though the list mail is finally coming from my server, couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john No. The message from AOL is that the IP address of the mail server your list is being sent from is blacklisted, not the sender of the message. If you're on shared hosting, not a dedicated server, you need to talk to your webhost and find out if they're on AOL's feedback loop and if they're actively nuking spammers. That's not quite right, I don't think, because if the sender uses Squirrelmail on my server, his messages are accepted at places where they are otherwise blocked. Mine is a personal sever. I am a newbie, but I'm using Postfix/Debian and it is not an open relay. I personally have not had any problems being blocked anywhere, I've used dnsbl lookups and been OK, and have used available open-relay tests and been OK. We only have problems when my non-US friend sends mail to the list (or to certain domains that apparently have him or his ISP blocked). This sender is a good guy - a missionary that is only sending mail to his supporters - nothing unsolicited. His only problems are with AOL and one non-US domain. Thanks any other comments. - john It seems clear that the issue is with your friend or his ISP. When he posts to your list directly and the post is resent to the list members, the envelope sender and the Sender: and Errors-To: headers are all (re-)written to point to the list-bounces address. Thus only the From: and some Received: and possibly X-*: headers remain to identify the original source of the message. Clearly, AOL and the one other domain is looking at something there and deciding to block the message. Have you looked up his IP and others if any in the chain from him to you in the various dnsbl lists (openrbl.org does multiple list lookups with one query)? When he posts via your Squirrelmail, is the From: address the same as when he posts directly? If so, this would rule that out as the trigger. As this thread has shown, these are difficult issues to resolve, but your friend can go to the links in FAQ 3.42 and possibly find more info or some relief. In the meantime, he can apparently do what he needs to do using your Squirrelmail or get an address at any of a number of free e-mail services to post from. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:16:01 -0400 (EDT), MCV Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you sign up for the AOL feedback loop? Finding out after the fact is better than not knowing at all. http://postmaster.info.aol.com/fbl/ -- hth, texas critter Get a FREE iPod! http://alice.ttlg.net/freeipod.html Glenfinnan Web Hosting: http://www.glenfinnan.net/ EL-M FAQ: http://www.emaillist-managers.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
At 8:08 PM -0500 2004-10-21, texas critter wrote: hmm? I'm not sure what you mean by after the fact, I use the feedback loop currently to keep me alerted to spam reports on mail going out from my dedicated server to AOL. On a server you already own. Try signing up for a feedback loop report for a machine at a provider where you are considering them for service, but you are not yet actually in possession of the machine. That's what I meant by after the fact. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Oct 21, 2004, at 6:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: blacklist. Even though the list mail is finally coming from my server, couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john No. Yes, actually. That's not quite right, I don't think, because if the sender uses Squirrelmail on my server, actually, if the received lines have a blacklisted IP in it anywhere in the chain, there's a good chance sites will block it. And yes, many of them will report back YOUR IP address (as the one doing delivery) as being blocked, even though they're blocking soemthing two or three hops prior. I've seen some amazingly badly written and stupid spam blocking stuff out there. Much of which I write off as hey, if your users are stupid enough to let you get away with throwing that stuff at their email, we'll, that's their problem. AOL is not immune to that kind of your admins are on drugs, or need them feeling. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:22:21 +0200, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:07 PM -0500 2004-10-20, texas critter wrote: I also recommend that anyone with a dedicated server sign up for the feedback loop as well. Unfortunately, that's only something you can do after-the-fact, at which point it may be too late. hmm? I'm not sure what you mean by after the fact, I use the feedback loop currently to keep me alerted to spam reports on mail going out from my dedicated server to AOL. AOLers who report list mail as spam get unsubbed (per AOL's requirements). By being pro-active, it helps keep my server out of the AOL blocklists. -- hth, texas critter Get a FREE iPod! http://alice.ttlg.net/freeipod.html Glenfinnan Web Hosting: http://www.glenfinnan.net/ EL-M FAQ: http://www.emaillist-managers.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
SUMMARY Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john No. Yes, actually. The problem ISP is in Europe. The challenged sender is using a dialup at this time. There are 2 probably related observations: 1. He is being blocked by a domain in South America, cantv.net. The bounce message has a link to their abuse pages, and sure enough, his ISP's SMTP server's domain is in the block list. When he sends using his Outlook, this domain appears in the headers and he bounces as if a spammer. If he uses my Squirrelmail, his sending domain doesn't appear in the headers, and his mail goes through. This is, of course, true whether we're talking about Mailman list mail or not. 2. When he sent to his list, all the AOL mails bounced. Well, they didn't actually bounce permanently - They we're delayed. I found them in my Postfix queue, but by the next day, they were gone. I haven't actually confirmed that they were received by the AOL users, but I assume they were. Apparently due to his domain's reports, his mail to AOL is rate-limited. He uses a commercial ISP, and I guess someone(s) have sent enough spam to AOL and cantv to get his ISP's SMTP server domain tagged as a problem. Thanks for all of the discussion - Being a newbie, I've learned a lot. However, this really doesn't involve Mailman anymore, so let's close it up? ;-) - John -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
I've followed the AOL members not receiving list mail thread from last month, but I don't find any particular resolution. I've just started a new list with 200+ members, and ALL of the AOL addys bounced with the following: host mailin-03.mx.aol.com[64.12.138.120] said: 421-: (RLY:H1) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlyh1.html 421 SERVICE NOT AVAILABLE (in reply to end of DATA command) Anyone know of a specific answer to this problem? THANKS! - John -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
did you follow the link that AOL supplied? The IP address you are sending from has been temporarily rate limited due to AOL Member complaints. their suggestions are there, also. On Oct 20, 2004, at 8:29 AM, John Fleming wrote: I've followed the AOL members not receiving list mail thread from last month, but I don't find any particular resolution. I've just started a new list with 200+ members, and ALL of the AOL addys bounced with the following: host mailin-03.mx.aol.com[64.12.138.120] said: 421-: (RLY:H1) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlyh1.html 421 SERVICE NOT AVAILABLE (in reply to end of DATA command) Anyone know of a specific answer to this problem? THANKS! - John -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
At 10:29 AM -0500 2004-10-20, John Fleming wrote: I've followed the AOL members not receiving list mail thread from last month, but I don't find any particular resolution. You're not going to get one. The closest you will get is found at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.042.htp. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
John Fleming wrote: I've followed the AOL members not receiving list mail thread from last month, but I don't find any particular resolution. I've just started a new list with 200+ members, and ALL of the AOL addys bounced with the following: host mailin-03.mx.aol.com[64.12.138.120] said: 421-: (RLY:H1) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlyh1.html 421 SERVICE NOT AVAILABLE (in reply to end of DATA command) Anyone know of a specific answer to this problem? THANKS! - John There is no specific answer to this problem. Your IP address (the one list mail is coming from) is being blocked by AOL. The link in the above error message provides some information as does FAQ article 3.42. Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Also see the thread [Mailman-Users] The AOL Problem beginning at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-April/035760.html -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
There is no specific answer to this problem. Your IP address (the one list mail is coming from) is being blocked by AOL. The link in the above error message provides some information as does FAQ article 3.42. I don't think so, Mark. This is an announce-only list, and the sender is non-US, I think on a dialup. Let's say the sender's IP or ISP is on the blacklist. Even though the list mail is finally coming from my server, couldn't the presence of his IP or ISP in the message headers be enough to trigger the blacklist? - john -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
At 2:38 PM -0500 2004-10-20, texas critter wrote: No. The message from AOL is that the IP address of the mail server your list is being sent from is blacklisted, not the sender of the message. That assumes that AOL is giving you the correct error message for the particular problem they actually detected. Having worked the other side of that particular fence, I can tell you that this is not necessarily a valid assumption. If you're on shared hosting, not a dedicated server, you need to talk to your webhost and find out if they're on AOL's feedback loop and if they're actively nuking spammers. Also finding out the mail server IP address and checking it at openrbl.org and news.admin.net-abuse.* at Google Groups will help you find out if your webhost is hosting spammers and getting your list mail because of it. These are good things to do no matter what, regardless of whether or not AOL is accurately giving you the appropriate error message for the problem they have detected. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent AOL thread
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:22:41 +0200, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 2:38 PM -0500 2004-10-20, texas critter wrote: That assumes that AOL is giving you the correct error message for the particular problem they actually detected. Having worked the other side of that particular fence, I can tell you that this is not necessarily a valid assumption. But the same error message over multiple mailings for *all* AOL list members over a week or more would indicate that it is correct. With shared hosting, it's generally true, even of webhosts that don't want to host spammers, they often don't pay enough attention to their resellers' customers and will end up hosting spammers who get the server's IP address blacklisted. These are good things to do no matter what, regardless of whether or not AOL is accurately giving you the appropriate error message for the problem they have detected. Absolutely! And anyone who's looking to sign up with a webhost should find out their IP ranges and check them *before* signing up. I also recommend that anyone with a dedicated server sign up for the feedback loop as well. -- hth, texas critter [off-list copies of list messages not needed, please edit your To/CC before hitting SEND] Get a FREE iPod! http://alice.ttlg.net/freeipod.html Glenfinnan Web Hosting: http://www.glenfinnan.net/ EL-M FAQ: http://www.emaillist-managers.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
