Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Dnia 4.06.2021 o godz. 09:07:09 yuv via mailop pisze: > What is more important is that intentional or not, this behavior is > detrimental to internet email and has to stop before internet email > becomes even more irrelevant. How many shops and other services have > you visited that have downgraded email from absolutely necessary to > secondary, e.g. by replacing email with phone/SMS for login and > messaging? Most of them still communicate primarily by email. SMS is generally used only for most important and urgent messages, like "your package is going to be delivered today". And these usally come directly from courier companies that are delivering the packages, not from the shops themselves. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Fri, 2021-06-04 at 11:16 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: > Sometimes, just out of curiosity, I'm checking MX-es for eg. Internet > shops in which I shop or other entities I communicate with. Most of > them have e-mail hosted by their hosting companies (at least MX > points to the hosting ISP server), as part of the hosting package > probably. > > So I guess there are still many that are neither Microsoft nor > Google. I am sure you are guessing right. Do you also check their SPF records? Here in Canada, internet shops are being taken over by Shopify. I am not saying that big service providers like Microsoft, Google, Shopify, etc. are inherently bad. Economies of scale predict that such large outfits can be very competitive. What I am saying is that where network effects are important, or as in the case of internet email, critical, these large outfits have an incentive to use their scale for anti-competitive behavior, such as arbitrarily rejecting mail from competitor's services. Nothing prevents you or me from developing an online retail solution and compete with Shopify. But if we try to operate a mail server and can't deliver emails to a large number of potential recipients, no one will contract our services and we will be prevented from making a run on Gmail/Outlook. I am not saying Microsoft is doing that -- there is ample evidence that its filtering service is going ballistic against mail coming from its own cloud. I am saying that the unintended consequences of Microsoft's filtering are difficult to distinguish from intended anti-competitive behavior. What is more important is that intentional or not, this behavior is detrimental to internet email and has to stop before internet email becomes even more irrelevant. How many shops and other services have you visited that have downgraded email from absolutely necessary to secondary, e.g. by replacing email with phone/SMS for login and messaging? -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Dnia 3.06.2021 o godz. 22:59:18 yuv via mailop pisze: > > What volume of maiboxes is handled by the three biggest service > providers in your country? Not talking free consumers services. It > has been a long time since I have dealt with another business whose > mailboxes were not handled by either Microsoft or Google. Choose your > poison. Sometimes, just out of curiosity, I'm checking MX-es for eg. Internet shops in which I shop or other entities I communicate with. Most of them have e-mail hosted by their hosting companies (at least MX points to the hosting ISP server), as part of the hosting package probably. So I guess there are still many that are neither Microsoft nor Google. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Thu, 2021-06-03 at 12:20 -0400, Bill Cole via mailop wrote: > On 2021-06-01 at 21:46:43 UTC-0400 (Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:46:43 -0400) > yuv via mailop > is rumored to have said: > > > I do like the fact that if someone puts > > a letter with my address in a post office box anywhere in the > > world, > > it > > makes its way to my snail box within a reliable service standard. > > [...] > The direct corollary to that factoid is that all email should > therefore be run by government entities with nationwide monopolies. No. Internet email suffers indeed a governance problem that result in interoperability or deliverability difficulties, but government monopolies are not the solution. Government's role is to set the rules and police them, not to provide the service that can be competitively provided by private enterprise. The corollary you envision is the phone network of the Seventies. Today, in advanced countries, the phone network is a more or less competitive market, that unlike internet email is *regulated* by government and *co-ordinated* at the ITU-T, a UN agency. I am not proposing that exact model (a license is required to operate a telecom and I rather see less red tape than more) but I am proposing that standards be enforced, and extended to include a sufficient level of deliverability. Today, "standards" are imposed by the big players, and they do so very much in the bad Microsoft way of the nineties: Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. Internet email may not be extinguished any time soon, but it is becoming less and less relevant, replaced by SMS/MMS and other proprietary messaging platforms (iMessage, Whatsapp, Telegram, etc.) that do not suffer the governance problems that come with the cacophonic fragmentation of internet email space where sender identification flaky and filtering is not only not standardized, but also spurious to a point of unreliability. > I do not expect this to garner much support by anyone currently > running any sort of commercial mail service on either end. Of course not. There is more money to be made in a world of deliverability issues and in the long term using deliverability as a way to squeeze out of the market the smaller players and aim for an oligopoly or even a monopoly, resulting in higher prices and less innovation. What volume of maiboxes is handled by the three biggest service providers in your country? Not talking free consumers services. It has been a long time since I have dealt with another business whose mailboxes were not handled by either Microsoft or Google. Choose your poison. Internet email in its pure form was/is a sore pain for profitability: there is an unlimited number of domains available (unlike the limited and controlled range of phone numbers or IP addresses) and barriers to entry were very low. Let's make them high by complicating things and we can make more money /s. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On 2021-06-01 at 21:46:43 UTC-0400 (Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:46:43 -0400) yuv via mailop is rumored to have said: I do like the fact that if someone puts a letter with my address in a post office box anywhere in the world, it makes its way to my snail box within a reliable service standard. For a very unusual definition of "anywhere" I guess that's true. I would guess that you have not tested Venezuela, Turkey, Gaza, Borneo, or North Korea for inclusion in "anywhere" but I suppose that most of North America and Europe work that way, usually. The direct corollary to that factoid is that all email should therefore be run by government entities with nationwide monopolies. I do not expect this to garner much support by anyone currently running any sort of commercial mail service on either end. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 21:39, John Levine via mailop wrote: > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do > not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. I received Microsoft Office 365 invoices in the Junk folder of my untrained/verbatim Office 365 inbox, because of SmartScreen. No one likes invoices, i guess... -- Stefano Bagnara Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 21:46 -0400, yuv via mailop wrote: > but I do like the fact that if someone puts > a letter with my address in a post office box anywhere in the world, > it > makes its way to my snail box within a reliable service standard. Your mileage may vary. Around here several clients and vendors moved to Zelle or other electronic payment mechanisms due to persistent problems with snail mailed checks never arriving. Some parts of the US Post Office seems to be dropping some of the mail on the floor. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHMEAREKADMWIQSuFMepaSkjWnTxQ5QvqPuaKVMWwQUCYLgRvxUcY2FybEBmaXZl LXRlbi1zZy5jb20ACgkQL6j7milTFsGG8QCfWWyb9634kcm9PGPyYNVvr1vuTnMA niUL8k1NYIHLgv5wNaDOgGUSweY6 =7kDq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 10:50:05 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: >I think the system has accreted and evolved to a point where not even the >folks inside Microsoft can tell you why a mail was delivered where it was. I >mean, thats been true for more than a decade now. Its not, somehow, that the >folks answering sender support mail wont tell you, its that they cant tell >you. I suspect that even the system developers couldnt tell you exactly why a >mail went to bulk or was discarded or was rejected. Toward the end of my careen at MS, my analysis of the architecture that the system was evolving toward (on the O365 side) told me that it should be possible for a message to completely disappear without the possibility that any plausible investigation process would reveal why (or even if) a particular message met a particular fate. This architecture has been carried over into the "unified" system, with considerable elaboration. I often use the term "apparently occasionally non-deterministic" for the platform. Having watched the system behaviour from the outside for the past eight years, I have found no reason to alter this impression. I doubt strongly that there is any individual with a full synoptic grasp of the System itself. >With that being said, they try to help senders, much more than a lot of other >mailbox providers. Certainly most of the individuals I worked with had a keen understanding of the issues facing all the parties. The problem is that those who make budget decisions or control the deployment of resources in the Corporation will often have disjoint understandings and a different set of primary objectives. (Then there was our Search for that individual or group who were actually required and empowered to read and answer abuse@ and postmaster@...) >Filters are not static, they are adjusting all the time. Sometimes just keep >trying is the right thing to do. Sometimes give it a rest for a week (or 2 >or 3) and let your reputation reset is the right thing to do. Sometimes it >feels like there is nothing the sender can do to change delivery. The advice that MJW gave a while back (If you see significant deferrals, STOP ALL SENDING for at least an hour. If the problem persists, stop for 24 hours.) has proved to be worthwhile. Fortunately, on the platform my clients are using, implementing that for any recipient system is trivial. >MS users and MS policy makers are about the only folks who are going to be >able to change what MS is doing. It sucks for those of us who are looking at >the mail in our outbound queues and going yknow, this person paid for this >email and MS isnt letting me deliver it or this person probably really >wants their appointment reminder, but MS isnt letting me deliver it or >Auntie susie really wants to hear from cousin joan, sucks microsoft doesnt >like this but complaining on mailop isnt going to change any of that. "Microsoft" and "Systems Microsoft is presently running" are distinct entities, often with no discernible connection other than the accidental. When it was possible to do so, I spent a considerable amount of my work day investigating reported false positives, and fixed a lot of unneeded damage. Eventually I was reassigned. In the end, however, "How to prevent CEOs of large client corporations from calling Rajesh Jha in the middle of the night because of massive spam problems" will become "How to prevent Rajesh Jha from calling ME in the middle of the night due to client spam problems", which will then tend to drift to the top of one's priorities. (Rajesh Jha was $BIGNUM pay grades above us all, at the time.) I will point out to the assembled multitude that the world of email experienced by a spam analyst at Microsoft or Y!/AOL or gmail is remarkably different from the world of email experienced by someone trying to operate an ethical and effective email sending operation, or to advise those that do. Then add, on top of that, designers and developers who personally are relatively unconnected to actual email operations as a whole... Your world (and mine, now) could actually be considerably worse. mdr -- "There are no laws here, only agreements." -- Masahiko ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
> On 2 Jun 2021, at 10:17, André Peters via mailop wrote: [snip] > They _DO_ block whole networks (not just subnets within an AS). > It might not be the case in the example above, but it does happen. I am reasonably familiar with Microsoft’s anti-spam systems and how they work. They do block ranges, and subnets, but anyone claiming that AS(whatever) means that MS is blocking autonomous system number(whatever) is flat out wrong. That is not what that diagnostic code means. > Or silently discarding mail... come on, that's just the worst practice ever. I silently discard mail all the time. No one, absolutely NO ONE, is entitled to my time or attention or mailbox space. That goes double when the mail is actively harmful. If MJW says that shouldn’t be happening in the freemail domains any longer, I believe him. On the O365 side, individual administrators have the ability to discard mail on their own systems for their own domains. Neither you nor I have any right to tell those administrators they cannot do that. Not our systems, not our rules. Look, Microsoft has tons of flaws. They have an aggressive blocking system that upsets a lot of senders. They have stupid rules and implementations that I don’t think do what they think they do or even what they’re intended to do. I think the system has accreted and evolved to a point where not even the folks inside Microsoft can tell you why a mail was delivered where it was. I mean, that’s been true for more than a decade now. It’s not, somehow, that the folks answering sender support mail won’t tell you, it’s that they can’t tell you. I suspect that even the system developers couldn’t tell you exactly why a mail went to bulk or was discarded or was rejected. Machine Learning filters (and it’s all ML filters these days) simply don’t work that way. With that being said, they try to help senders, much more than a lot of other mailbox providers. They were the first company to offer data directly to Senders (SNDS). They were one of the first groups to offer FBLs. They are the ONLY group I am aware of that actually asks their users directly whether or not their spam filters are doing things right in that user’s mailbox. Not some random ‘do you like our filters’ but a specific pop up window that says to a user: "We put this email in your spam folder (or inbox). Did we get this right?" It is phenomenally hard for a new sender to break into the MS inbox. For client reasons I ended up doing a bunch of tests yesterday and the first mail from my IP went to bulk. I hit ’this is not spam’ and the second mail from that same IP and sender combination went to the inbox. The third email from a different sender but the same IP went to spam. That’s basically what I needed to know so I stopped testing at that point. Yeah, Microsoft hates low level senders. Microsoft hates new IPs. Complaining on mailop isn’t actually going to change anything about that. Complaining to the developers over beer in the pub isn’t going to change that. Complaining to the product managers isn’t going to change that. O365 is widely used and we’re stuck with it. The free domains are less widely used than Gmail but they’re still in the top 5 per volume for most mailing lists. A few additional facts: SmartScreen is partially based on the above mentioned ‘did we filter this mail correctly’ questions. It’s also based on user complaints. It’s based on the content of the mail, it is unrelated to IP or even domain reputation. Call it stupid all you want but the reality is: Smart Screen is a measure of how much recipients want a particular email stream. If they’re saying they don’t want it, then Microsoft is going to listen to what their users tell them. Some of the measurements are based on explicit user questions, others are based on user interactions with mail. Filters are not static, they are adjusting all the time. Sometimes ‘just keep trying’ is the right thing to do. Sometimes ‘give it a rest for a week (or 2 or 3) and let your reputation reset’ is the right thing to do. Sometimes it feels like there is nothing the sender can do to change delivery. MS users and MS policy makers are about the only folks who are going to be able to change what MS is doing. It sucks for those of us who are looking at the mail in our outbound queues and going ‘yknow, this person paid for this email and MS isn’t letting me deliver it” or “this person probably really wants their appointment reminder, but MS isn’t letting me deliver it” or “Auntie susie really wants to hear from cousin joan, sucks microsoft doesn’t like this” but complaining on mailop isn’t going to change any of that. If complaining on mailop fixed MS filters, then they would have been fixed a decade ago. We’ve been having this same discussion for that long. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
-- Originalnachricht -- Von: "Laura Atkins via mailop" An: "mailop" Gesendet: 02.06.2021 10:55:31 Betreff: Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message I know! I saw a bounce message JUST THIS MORNING from a client that blocked AS(201806271). How granular is that? Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.4.1 All recipient addresses rejected : Access denied. AS(201806271) [BN8NAM12FT022.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com <http://bn8nam12ft022.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com/>] laura (FYI: the AS in the blocking message stands for Anti-Spam and the number is an internal MS diagnostic code. It is not referencing an Autonomous System number) On 1 Jun 2021, at 11:54, J. Hellenthal via mailop wrote: Oh man! They got the whole ASN ! Not just the A but the S and the N too! Thorough 浪 -- J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. On Jun 1, 2021, at 05:38, André Peters via mailop wrote: Von: "Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop" An: mailop@mailop.org Gesendet: 01.06.2021 12:04:54 Betreff: Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter (thanks!) or some timeout ran out :-) Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no explanation, no abuse complaint. Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a bit odd... Cheers, Hans-Martin This is a never ending story. :-D Pretty annoying. One of our ASNs was blocked for a day recently, there was no difference in mail volume or content, it is a low-traffic ASN for little communication. The whole ASN. Once in a while these things happen with MS. It's normal. Yes, given the amount of outbound spam I don't understand how their filter or intelligence works at all. I guess nobody knows anymore at this point. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog They _DO_ block whole networks (not just subnets within an AS). It might not be the case in the example above, but it does happen. Or silently discarding mail... come on, that's just the worst practice ever.___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hello, I'm rather new to this list, so I hope it's okay to jump in directly in this discussion and share some thoughts. :-) I just recently faced a very similar problem with one of the new IPs I got assigned. Likely, the IP was in use by someone else previously or there are spammy neighbours (not surprising when it's a big provider with some customer turnaround). I got all deblocking done in the various blocklists, the status was clean everywhere, including SNDS, but still, Microsoft 365 mailboxes (*.protection.outlook.com) blocked it. It seems there are various independent blocklists - one set is covering consumer Outlook/Live/Hotmail, the other set is covering Microsoft 365. SNDS seems to only query the former one, and the Outlook.com web form only unblocks on these domains, so neither of that helps for Microsoft 365 mailboxes. For Microsoft 365, there seem to be various levels of blocking. Sometimes, you can unblock yourself at sender.office.com, but I hit the infamous "Write to delist@" message. I managed to create a ticket there, they asked for some details, but then radio silence, all follow-up mails ignored, for over a month now. Various ways of contacting them went without any outcome, and I sense that on their end there is also some confusion as to the existing blocklists - I got repeatedly told the IP is not listed (which is what sender.office.com told me too), or to use the Outlook.com form, that obviously didn't help for my problem at hand. In the end, via way one of the communication channels I tried, I somehow managed to get a supporter who was really engaged and managed to helped me out, but I must admit that the whole process was not straightforward and took me a month in the end. At least when people provide full contact data/imprint and proof that the IP was freshly assigned, some feedback would be good to not be left in the dark. Problematic is also that there is no actual way to test if your new IP is blocked before using it, apart from sending to an actual e-mail address hosted there. Hope to help, Florian ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
I know! I saw a bounce message JUST THIS MORNING from a client that blocked AS(201806271). How granular is that? > Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.4.1 All recipient addresses rejected : Access > denied. AS(201806271) [BN8NAM12FT022.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com > <http://bn8nam12ft022.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com/>] laura (FYI: the AS in the blocking message stands for Anti-Spam and the number is an internal MS diagnostic code. It is not referencing an Autonomous System number) > On 1 Jun 2021, at 11:54, J. Hellenthal via mailop wrote: > > Oh man! They got the whole ASN ! > > Not just the A but the S and the N too! > > Thorough 浪 > > -- > J. Hellenthal > > The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a > lot about anticipated traffic volume. > >> On Jun 1, 2021, at 05:38, André Peters via mailop wrote: >> >> Von: "Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop" >> An: mailop@mailop.org >> Gesendet: 01.06.2021 12:04:54 >> Betreff: Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with >> misleading temp error message >> >>>> Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >>>> Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >>>>> Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? >>>> Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter >>>> (thanks!) or some timeout ran out :-) >>> >>> Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no >>> explanation, no abuse complaint. >>> >>> Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a >>> bit odd... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Hans-Martin >> This is a never ending story. :-D >> >> Pretty annoying. One of our ASNs was blocked for a day recently, there was >> no difference in mail volume or content, it is a low-traffic ASN for little >> communication. The whole ASN. Once in a while these things happen with MS. >> It's normal. >> >> Yes, given the amount of outbound spam I don't understand how their filter >> or intelligence works at all. I guess nobody knows anymore at this point. >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
> Am 02.06.2021 um 06:08 schrieb Jay Hennigan via mailop : > > On 6/1/21 20:55, John Levine via mailop wrote: > >> You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every message. >> At large mail systems, typically 90% or more of the incoming mail is spam. >> Without aggressive filtering, e-mail would be unusable. > > Agreed 100%. Another thing that you really REALLY do not want is for your > mail provider to silently discard messages. Either block at IP level and > don't accept them at all, reject them, deliver them to the inbox, or deliver > them to the spam folder. > Wow, they still do that? Can be really, really problematic (in some countries) for legal reasons. > -- > Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net > Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 > 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 23:55 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > > All what recipients AND mailers want is a reliable email service, > > > You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every > message. Agree. What I do want (but probably not even Santa can give me) is to make ISPs liable for every bit that emanates from their network the same way a land owner is liable for the pollution emanating from their land, and to block out completely countries that do not enforce such stringent standard. > Spammers really do ruin everything. Slackers do too, and our governments have been giving too much slack to the industry who lobbied so successfully for a hands-off approach to encourage innovation. That industry is no longer in its infancy and self-regulation has failed. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer https :// moneylaw.ca Tel: 519.488.1783 (does not receive MMS) Tel: 1.844.234.5389 Fax: 1.888.900.5709 2201-323 Colborne Street London, ON N6B 3N8 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On 6/1/21 20:55, John Levine via mailop wrote: You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every message. At large mail systems, typically 90% or more of the incoming mail is spam. Without aggressive filtering, e-mail would be unusable. Agreed 100%. Another thing that you really REALLY do not want is for your mail provider to silently discard messages. Either block at IP level and don't accept them at all, reject them, deliver them to the inbox, or deliver them to the spam folder. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
It appears that yuv via mailop said: >> It's not just bulk mailers who overestimate how much their recipients >> want their mail. > >All what recipients AND mailers want is a reliable email service, like >snail mail. I don't like the invoices, solicitations, and other things >that land in my snail box, but I do like the fact that if someone puts >a letter with my address in a post office box anywhere in the world, it >makes its way to my snail box within a reliable service standard. You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every message. At large mail systems, typically 90% or more of the incoming mail is spam. Without aggressive filtering, e-mail would be unusable. Spammers really do ruin everything. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 21:22 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > if the recipients of the mail don't complain when they > don't get it, it's hard for the mail system operator to feel very > motivated The recipients don't even know they have a reason to complain. The motivation *should* come from service standards, RFCs, and professionalism. Not from complaints. > It's not just bulk mailers who overestimate how much their recipients > want their mail. All what recipients AND mailers want is a reliable email service, like snail mail. I don't like the invoices, solicitations, and other things that land in my snail box, but I do like the fact that if someone puts a letter with my address in a post office box anywhere in the world, it makes its way to my snail box within a reliable service standard. The result of this attitude is that users are pushed to alternatives. iMessages, Telegram, SMS, you name it. It is still an electronic signal traveling through the wires, but the intermediary has much more power over the users than in a federated internet email system. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
It appears that Scott Mutter via mailop said: >-=-=-=-=-=- >-=-=-=-=-=- > >The issue - at least to me - has always been that Microsoft is viewed as >this big, huge company that can do no wrong. I don't think anyone has said that. Microsoft's mail systems have accreted over the years and are held together with chewing gum and baling wire. On the other hand, if the recipients of the mail don't complain when they don't get it, it's hard for the mail system operator to feel very motivated to do anything about it, whether Microsoft or anyone else. It's not just bulk mailers who overestimate how much their recipients want their mail. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Oh man! They got the whole ASN ! Not just the A but the S and the N too! Thorough 浪 -- J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume. > On Jun 1, 2021, at 05:38, André Peters via mailop wrote: > > Von: "Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop" > An: mailop@mailop.org > Gesendet: 01.06.2021 12:04:54 > Betreff: Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with > misleading temp error message > >>> Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >>> Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >>>> Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? >>> Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter >>> (thanks!) or some timeout ran out :-) >> >> Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no >> explanation, no abuse complaint. >> >> Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a >> bit odd... >> >> Cheers, >> Hans-Martin > This is a never ending story. :-D > > Pretty annoying. One of our ASNs was blocked for a day recently, there was no > difference in mail volume or content, it is a low-traffic ASN for little > communication. The whole ASN. Once in a while these things happen with MS. > It's normal. > > Yes, given the amount of outbound spam I don't understand how their filter or > intelligence works at all. I guess nobody knows anymore at this point. > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
The issue - at least to me - has always been that Microsoft is viewed as this big, huge company that can do no wrong. When our users have issues sending to Microsoft email servers - it's obviously because *we're* stupid and something is wrong with *our* server. It can't possibly be a Microsoft issue. Microsoft made Windows, what did we make? That's the narrative that needs to change. If end-users would somehow start to realize that Microsoft has a horrible email system, fewer people would be inclined to use Microsoft based email accounts. That's basically what we have done. I'm sure we've probably lost some clients over it. But if you're using a Microsoft based email address for anything mission critical, then I'm sorry, you're probably missing stuff. And not just stuff from us, but from any number of other places. Missing stuff could be because of a no reason block/blacklist or just a silent deletion of the message. On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 3:50 PM Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote: > Am 01.06.21 um 21:39 schrieb John Levine via mailop: > > > > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do > > not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. > > We're not talking about bulk mail here. We're talking about messages > between individual users, including such things as > doctor or vaccination appointments, meeting schedule coordination, etc, > which both affected parties consider important. > Some occasional small mailing lists for group information exchange, too. > No marketing stuff, social media notifications > or other noise that people wouldn't miss. > > I'm pretty strict myself when it comes to blocking spam-emitting sites. > And of course, it also happens that we block > some IPs or IP ranges due to spamming and some time later it turns out > that the same hosts are used by legitimate > senders. We have several mechanisms in place to detect and remedy such > situations quickly. And when we notice spam > floods (such as the current hotmail bot flood) from mail systems we're > going out of our way to implement very specific > filters that keep out the drek while allowing legitimate mails through. > > It's really not necessary to play devil's advocate here. It's the devil, > he can defend himself quite well if he chooses > to speak. > > Cheers, > Hans-Martin > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hi, It's unfortunate to see others experiencing the same issues we've had with Microsoft in general. We're not a massive player in the market and constantly experience these service-disrupting incidents with MS and Office365. (Side note - I am also personally a paying premium customer of outlook, so I expect MS to do a proper job with that platform. It's not a "free, so we don't care" system) A thought - Has anyone approached Microsoft/Hotmail and suggested a working group with them? The working group would be representatives of trusted mail host operators and senior admins in MS, understanding that by creating this group, we're reducing both their workload and increasing their customer satisfaction. The goals would be to find solutions for 1. A way to quickly escalate any blocking issues from our IP ranges 2. Establish valid mail trust with our IP ranges, knowing that we are doing everything in our power to limit spam. 3. Establish that mail from these IPs may vary in volume 4. Have the ability to inform MS of new IP addresses, so they don't block them for sudden rate change 5. Help understand ways we can change our systems to reduce the chances of being blocked/deleted/listed I could approach some contacts at Microsoft and see if they're willing to do such a thing? Pinch me if I'm dreaming. Regards, Graeme Slogrove This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Am 01.06.21 um 21:39 schrieb John Levine via mailop: > > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do > not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. We're not talking about bulk mail here. We're talking about messages between individual users, including such things as doctor or vaccination appointments, meeting schedule coordination, etc, which both affected parties consider important. Some occasional small mailing lists for group information exchange, too. No marketing stuff, social media notifications or other noise that people wouldn't miss. I'm pretty strict myself when it comes to blocking spam-emitting sites. And of course, it also happens that we block some IPs or IP ranges due to spamming and some time later it turns out that the same hosts are used by legitimate senders. We have several mechanisms in place to detect and remedy such situations quickly. And when we notice spam floods (such as the current hotmail bot flood) from mail systems we're going out of our way to implement very specific filters that keep out the drek while allowing legitimate mails through. It's really not necessary to play devil's advocate here. It's the devil, he can defend himself quite well if he chooses to speak. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Dnia 1.06.2021 o godz. 15:39:15 John Levine via mailop pisze: > > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do > not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. > > So if the provider doesn't deliver it, and their users don't care, that is > not necessarily a mistake. Why do you always assume that the issue only refers to bulk mail? I ran once, a few years ago, into an issue where my purely personal messages, to someone I know, who had email hosted on O365, have been just silently discarded by MS. Neither me nor the recipient knew about this, until we figured out something is wrong and managed to contact using another means. (A similar situation is with Gmail putting my messages into Spam folder, which happened to me a few times). So using your (and Microsoft's) logic, the recipient "did not want" that mail, and "didn't care" that she didn't get it, because she didn't complain to MS that she didn't get it. Which was obviously not the case. And she couldn't complain because she didn't know in the first place that I send her that email. It was good that I had a different way of contacting that person. But what if the only contact was email? Let's assume for example that the recipient is you. You are quite a famous person ;), among others because of a few books you wrote. Some of those books contain your e-mail address, so it's quite normal that you can expect e-mails from your readers. Assume I'm a reader who wants to contact you - for example to ask about something I read in your book or just to express my opinion. But my email gets discarded or rejected. You don't know that I wanted to write to you, so you can't even tell whether my e-mail was wanted or not (according to my criteria, an author can never call messages from his readers "unwanted", even if they just hate him). But according to your logic, since you never worried that you didn't get my email (which you didn't know about at all), you didn't want that email. See the absurdity? -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 15:39 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > It appears that Johann Klasek via mailop < > klasek+mai...@zid.tuwien.ac.at> said: > > the aim is, that everyone on the recipient site > > is obligated to provide best possible reachability. > > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers > do not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want > it. I am by no way a bulk mailer. My server sends only legal documents and invoice, all as PDF attachment and with no HTML or other eyecandy or trackware. And yet Microsoft's StupidWhatever(TM) eats the mail without notice to either recipient or sender. How can the recipients know that this is what they want? On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 21:19 +0200, Johann Klasek via mailop wrote: > On Tue, Jun 01, 2021 at 02:48:23PM -0400, John Levine via mailop > wrote: > > > > You should definitely demand a full refund of all the money you've > > paid Microsoft to deliver your mail. > > Oh, wait, ... > > Sorry, I can't here this capitalistic sarcasm anymore That reply has nothing to do with capitalism, and even as sarcasm it is stale. The capitalistic answer is to make the provider responsible / liable for the damages caused by its non-reacheability. It is plain wrong to substitute the provider's StupidWhatever(TM) whims for the individual recipient's decision what is spam and how to deal with it. The individual recipient is the only person entitled to have whims and to ignore incoming mail, at his own responsibility. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
It appears that Johann Klasek via mailop said: >Sorry, I can't here this capitalistic sarcasm anymore ... maybe I got >this wrong anyhow, but the aim is, that everyone on the recipient site >is obligated to provide best possible reachability. No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. So if the provider doesn't deliver it, and their users don't care, that is not necessarily a mistake. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Tue, Jun 01, 2021 at 02:48:23PM -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > It appears that Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop said: > >Glad to hear that they could help you but I'm of the stubborn kind - we're > >not doing anything wrong, we're not spamming, > >we're not in a spammy neighborhood (afaik). That StupidScreen® Filter or > >whatever is deciding that our mail should be > >temp rejected for a day is the thing that's wrong. And I just refuse to > >"fix" something that's not broken to work around > >the brokenness of something else that can be fixed. > > You should definitely demand a full refund of all the money you've paid > Microsoft to deliver your mail. > Oh, wait, ... Sorry, I can't here this capitalistic sarcasm anymore ... maybe I got this wrong anyhow, but the aim is, that everyone on the recipient site is obligated to provide best possible reachability. What does MS pay to others that their customer's mail get delivered? Is this some game to punish each other, to drive all theirs customers and mail admins crazy? Johann K. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Am 01.06.21 um 20:48 schrieb John Levine via mailop: > > You should definitely demand a full refund of all the money you've paid > Microsoft to deliver your mail. > > Oh, wait, ... Well I'd be happy if they just paid a little bit for the time that I had to spend to protect our users from their spam floods. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
It appears that Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop said: >Glad to hear that they could help you but I'm of the stubborn kind - we're not >doing anything wrong, we're not spamming, >we're not in a spammy neighborhood (afaik). That StupidScreen® Filter or >whatever is deciding that our mail should be >temp rejected for a day is the thing that's wrong. And I just refuse to "fix" >something that's not broken to work around >the brokenness of something else that can be fixed. You should definitely demand a full refund of all the money you've paid Microsoft to deliver your mail. Oh, wait, ... R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hi, > Glad to hear that they could help you but I'm of the stubborn kind - we're > not doing anything wrong, we're not spamming, > we're not in a spammy neighborhood (afaik). That StupidScreen® Filter or > whatever is deciding that our mail should be > temp rejected for a day is the thing that's wrong. And I just refuse to "fix" > something that's not broken to work around > the brokenness of something else that can be fixed. > Ack. Recently I had to create a ticket because a friend of mine (having an account on my private mailserver) replied to a mail from a Hotmail user and it was denied. Seems to be very Smart® when it does not even recognize replies to mails sent from their own users. Sometimes ranting seems like the right thing to do ;) Regards Bjoern ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
jay> Jay's Law: Any product released by a technology company with jay> "Smart" in it's name will do stupid things. I find the following definition of "smart" from dictionary.com to be almost perfect in this context: "to be the cause of a sharp, stinging pain, as an irritating application, a blow, etc." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On 6/1/21 03:39, Daniel K. via mailop wrote: It turned out that my ISPs email servers was on the Microsoft shit-list, and that, quote: messages are being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of the SmartScreen® Filter. I propose an Internet law: Jay's Law: Any product released by a technology company with "Smart" in it's name will do stupid things. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Am 01.06.21 um 12:39 schrieb Daniel K. via mailop: > ... > I don't know anything about the specific error code you showed upthread, > but I finally managed to get in touch with Hotmail sender support > regarding my own problem - by using another email address than the one > used in the form. > > It turned out that my ISPs email servers was on the Microsoft shit-list, > and that, quote: > > messages are being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the > recommendations of the SmartScreen® Filter. > > So, I reckon that maybe the smartscreen filter decided to send all my > previous replies directly to the junk folder, since I also got no reply > until I sent the same message from another account. > > Maybe something similar is the case for you too? > > Hotmail support was helpful when I finally got hold of them. Glad to hear that they could help you but I'm of the stubborn kind - we're not doing anything wrong, we're not spamming, we're not in a spammy neighborhood (afaik). That StupidScreen® Filter or whatever is deciding that our mail should be temp rejected for a day is the thing that's wrong. And I just refuse to "fix" something that's not broken to work around the brokenness of something else that can be fixed. Cheers, Hans-Martin (yes I know I'm ranting, sometimes I feel like ranting is the thing to do :-) ) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On 6/1/21 10:04 AM, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop wrote: > Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >> Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >>> Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? >> Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter (thanks!) >> or some timeout ran out :-) > > Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no > explanation, no abuse complaint. I don't know anything about the specific error code you showed upthread, but I finally managed to get in touch with Hotmail sender support regarding my own problem - by using another email address than the one used in the form. It turned out that my ISPs email servers was on the Microsoft shit-list, and that, quote: messages are being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of the SmartScreen® Filter. So, I reckon that maybe the smartscreen filter decided to send all my previous replies directly to the junk folder, since I also got no reply until I sent the same message from another account. Maybe something similar is the case for you too? Hotmail support was helpful when I finally got hold of them. > Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a > bit odd... Maybe they got Postel's law the wrong way around? Daniel K. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Von: "Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop" An: mailop@mailop.org Gesendet: 01.06.2021 12:04:54 Betreff: Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter (thanks!) or some timeout ran out :-) Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no explanation, no abuse complaint. Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a bit odd... Cheers, Hans-Martin This is a never ending story. :-D Pretty annoying. One of our ASNs was blocked for a day recently, there was no difference in mail volume or content, it is a low-traffic ASN for little communication. The whole ASN. Once in a while these things happen with MS. It's normal. Yes, given the amount of outbound spam I don't understand how their filter or intelligence works at all. I guess nobody knows anymore at this point. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Am 28.05.21 um 15:22 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: > Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: >> Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? > Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter (thanks!) > or some timeout ran out :-) Same problem again, for no discernible reason. No contact from MS, no explanation, no abuse complaint. Given the ongoing flood of spam from bot-created hotmail accounts this is a bit odd... Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Am 28.05.21 um 13:47 schrieb Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop: > Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? Seems everything is ok now - either someone looked into the matter (thanks!) or some timeout ran out :-) Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hello, for a couple of hours Office365 recipients are unreachable from our server (not heeg.de, another one) due to SMTP rejections of this kind: (host viakom-de.mail.protection.outlook.com[104.47.5.36] said: 451 4.7.500 Server busy. Please try again later from [...]. (S77719) [HE1EUR02FT003.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to end of DATA command)) "Server busy" is a blatant lie, the server accepts the mail without issues from another IP address. Anyone from Microsoft/Outlook available to look into the matter? Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
