[Marxism] An interesting Daniel Barenboim Interview

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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In a passage in the interview, Barenboim says he shares an attitude with
Gramsci, saying: "Wider questions are very much on the minds of all
musicians in all countries right now. Barenboim is no exception. “I wish I
knew what the consequences will be,” he says.Or, rather, I want to know and
at the same time I don’t want to know. I share the philosopher Antonio
Gramsci
’s
view. "

Anyone here know what and where Gramsci said, in this regard?
Not a surprise that Barenboim - as one of the co-founders of the East West
Divan Orchestra with Edward Said - should talk of Gramsci knowingly. This
is at:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jul/09/daniel-barenboim-if-i-could-never-conduct-a-live-ring-cycle-again-i-dont-know-what-i-would-do

Thanks, Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Request for Source assistance

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Whoops..!
Yes - Many thanks Michael. (I must proof-check more... and wake up!).
Thanks sincerely, Hari

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 3:00 PM Michael Meeropol  wrote:

>
> Dear Friends & Member so of List:
>>
>> I have had a lot of trouble getting out two particular articles, and
>> I wonder if anyone has an easy access to them? Indeed, I would be very
>> grateful if possible - for these two. Thank you for considering. They are:
>>   1) Christopher Hill as being: "State and Revolution in
>> Tudor and Stuart England," in Communist Review, July 1948, p. 212
>>
>> 2) Rodney H. Hilton Mode Quarterly 1947; Vol 2 No 3 pp 267-8 in especial,
>> but I think his article must be longer than just those 2 pages I found the
>> reference for.
>>
>> Cheers Hari Kumar
>>
>
> That's MODERN QUARTERLY right Hari?
>
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[Marxism] Request for Source assistance

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Dear Friends & Member so of List:

I have had a lot of trouble getting out two particular articles, and
I wonder if anyone has an easy access to them? Indeed, I would be very
grateful if possible - for these two. Thank you for considering. They are:
  1) Christopher Hill as being: "State and Revolution in
Tudor and Stuart England," in Communist Review, July 1948, p. 212

2) Rodney H. Hilton Mode Quarterly 1947; Vol 2 No 3 pp 267-8 in especial,
but I think his article must be longer than just those 2 pages I found the
reference for.

Cheers Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Forwarding Probsting's book

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People on the list will recall that I took issue with the views of
Probsting on COVID 19 on a few occasions.
I see no problem with giving a link to his book on this. I have not read
it.

*The COVID-19 Global Counterrevolution: What It Is and How to Fight It*

*A Marxist analysis and strategy for the revolutionary struggle*

by Michael Pröbsting

https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/the-covid-19-global-counterrevolution/



Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Fwd: Comment to Louis on "The conspiracist left"

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Subject: Comment to Louis on "The conspiracist left"
To: Louis Proyect 

https://louisproyect.org/2020/04/01/the-conspiracist-left-and-the-far-right-strange-bedfellows-on-covid-19/


Hi Louis:


I have no disagreements with your views expressed here on the strange species
of pro-Assadites like Piers Robinson, Tim Hayward’s pro-Assad Organisation
for Propaganda Studies or Peter Hitchens.

Nor even of David Katz (of whom I had never heard until his recent media
splash).


It is a potentially a 'small' point. However I think you are likely wrong
about John Ioannidis when you say this:


"Is it possible that Ioannidis reflects the corporate bias of Stanford’s
board of trustees that is headed by a Walmart family scion and that is
composed of financial industry CEO’s? Sorry, if that makes me sound like a
vulgar Marxist but as Bob Fitch once put it, vulgar Marxism explains 90% of
what goes on in the world.”


Given how influential Ioannidis is, perhaps it is not that small a point.


I would liken Ioannidis's approach here, to that of a total academic who is
thrust into a heaving busy ICU, where she/he has to make a decision NOW.


At the outset:


I have *never* worked or published with Ioannidis - just to make it clear
that I have no Conflict Of Interest (COI) - at least in my view.   I have
 often cited him in my work - and in matters of evidence based assessment
of therapies. For what it is worth, I think he is one of the 2 most
important Evidence-based epidemiologists (mainly to do with trials or
observational evidence of therapy) alive today.


The best paediatrician to be able to assess evidence -  that I ever worked
with - was quite paralysed in the ICU. You see he was tunnel-sighted, by
the view that goes: "Well there is no randomised controlled trial on
this therapy...
";


and the often unsaid implication was that "and so I do not know what is
best in this particular situation - and no one else does.. so we can leave
the situation as is".


In the current situation, Ioannidis comes close to this semi-paralysis. He
is calling for *data* - and he is quite right do ask for that. And he calls
for 'no panic' - and he is right in that too.


He sort of acknowledges his own peculiar situation as he - when pushed - at
several points says he does not advocate coming out of isolation (for
himself - amongst others). He must be aware that people on the front line
in the way that Dr Drosten is - have called for exactly the same thing
(more data) - *BUT while* making crucial policy decisions - balancing off
the trade-offs quite well. A very informative and long interview with
Drosten, which is quite accessible is available. (See in English:
https://www.zeit.de/wissen/gesundheit/2020-03/christian-drosten-coronavirus-pandemic-germany-virologist-charite/seite-3
)


Actually *nothing* he says is all that startling - and he keeps pulling
back to need for "more data". He is right - there does need to be more
data. (But there needs to be something done till that mounts!)


And that - allows him to bail out and refuse to critique Trump (48'12")...
Again, he takes a 'purist' 'academic' position. I respect he does not want
to be a politician... but... this degree of abstentionism?


The varying estimates of mortality are something that everyone in the field
has observed (even I made similar points in a response to Michael - at
least that was one of my intents). He does make one point that is very
true: Punt for the average figure. That is to say rather than the 95% CI
extreme data, pick the average - as that is more likely to be true.


His interpretations of Italian higher mortality - are also
un-exceptionable. But - he did say that these mortality rates - and the
"best" ones from the ship (named 'The Diamond Princess' was it not?) -
need to be 'risk-adjusted'. That was also a point I tried perhaps badly, to
make when discussing with Michael.


Well - what happens when this risk-adjustment is done? I fear we are likely
to see that 'quasi-experimental' data shortly:

With a sick(er) in general population (e.g.s: USA - and India etc - add in
some co-factors, shall we say smoking or obesity or malnutrition to
start?);


or:

with differing, and in general worse hospital systems (egs. USA - and
India).


Basically, I suggest that his academic 'purism' here, has made
Ioannidis vulnerable to being the fig-leaf for the conservatives. I think
he himself might be squirming a little, as he watches a
rising fatality. Although I do believe him when in the video, he says circa
 56 mins: "I would not blame the WHO"; & "They had to do something"; & "it
is not about who is right" etc...


Anyway, enough.

I think I have 

[Marxism] Enough is enough - When?

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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>
> If you accept the need for quarantining social-isolation steps - then the
> consideration of when is it time to lift restrictions become an issue.
> For those people, consider reading:


>
> https://www.theleftberlin.com/post/health-care-crisis-and-short-term-demands
>

However, if one never was in support of quarantine - then the article is
doubly irrelevant.

Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Link to Socialist Health Alliance (UK) 'Open Letter to Mr Johnson'

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https://www.sochealth.co.uk/2020/03/20/open-letter-to-the-prime-minister-from-the-socialist-health-association/

This below is a very pruned version showing just the opener and bolded
sub-headings (Link above).

Hari Kumar

__

Dear Mr Johnson,

The pandemic has exposed the steady destruction of our public services and
welfare state which has happened over the last 10 years.

This is the most unprecedented health challenge in 100 years which is
complex and difficult – but as voiced by many experts in the field, we have
significant concerns about the way the UK government has hitherto been
approaching this national emergency. .


However the public is finally waking up to the fact that, as a result
of government austerity and privatisation policies, we are ill-prepared –
with too few ICU facilities, NHS beds, healthcare staff and equipment – to
offer a safe and effective response to the virus. Those most at risk also
have to use a threadbare social care system which is already bending under
the strain.

   1. *You are placing staff at risk*


   1. *You are placing patients at risk*


   1. *You are placing communities at risk*


   1. *You are placing the NHS at risk*


   1. *You are placing Social Care at risk*


   1. *You are placing democracy at risk*

*WE EXPECT YOUR GOVERNMENT TO:*

   - Treat us like adults – show us the evidence on which you base your
   decisions
   - Protect frontline staff right now ...
   - Protect the population of the UK by permanently increasing NHS staff
   in hospitals and primary care, increasing hospital beds, increasing
   respirators.
   - Roll back privatisation and austerity across public services.
   - Seize the opportunity of this pandemic to invest for the long-term in
   the welfare state, recognising that a thriving society requires a thriving
   state.
   - Suspend now legislation on the charging and reporting of undocumented
   migrants.
   - Invest permanently in social care, making it free at the point of use,
   fully funded through progressive taxation, promoting independence for all
   and delivered by a workforce with appropriate training, career structure,
   pay and conditions.
   - Protect those in precarious employment from financial meltdown from
   the pandemic. All those who should not be at work should have an
   living income.
   - Ensure that people across the UK have equitable access to the help
   they need, through their Devolved Administrations
   - Review the Long Term Plan___
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[Marxism] More on Italian high mortality

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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Obviously news continues to filter in:

Todays NYT:
"Chinese health experts visiting Italy warned that the country may not be
taking the stringent lockdown measures seriously enough, even as outside
aid groups begin to set up systems to lend support.

The number of coronavirus deaths in Italy passed the total for China on
Thursday. And as new infections in China continued to drop, numbers across
Europe have exploded.



On a visit to Milan, the vice president of the Chinese Red Cross, Sun
Shuopeng, chided Italians for not taking restrictive measures more
seriously. The situation in the northern region of Lombardy region, which
has been hit hardest by the outbreak, echoed that in Wuhan, China, during
the peak of its epidemic, he said.

Italy was the first Western country to introduce lockdown measures
,
following the model established by the Chinese government. But Mr. Sun said
the Italian authorities had not gone far enough.

In Milan, public transportation was still moving, and people were still on
the streets.

“We need to close the town,” Mr. Sun added, prompting Attilio Fontana, the
president of Lombardy, to nod vigorously. Mr. Fontana has been pushing the
national government to adopt stricter lockdown measures."

On another note: I have a friend in the UK, who is putting into production
rapidly, hundreds of the old type of 'Iron Lung' Ventilators. These are
easy to make - in contrast to the very technically advanced modern
ventilators. But they work.


Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Italian & German mortality rates

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*Chris Slee *I, in my view - right about those co-factors mentioned. (I
have not read the Telegraph version).
Another point is that there was a large population in the factories in
Italy. The clothing industry has seen a major shift. Now Chinese owned
conglomerates apparently bring to North Italy a large migrant population.
(Sorry - it was read in a German paper on th road, and I forget source).
So all sorts of issues on top of *population susceptibility* (age,
co-factors smoking, air pollution). These remain the main drivers.

But other modifying factors, ones that will likely come into play will
likely also include obesity - and other general markers of ill health. ThIs
is why the burden may be quite high in the USA (Unfortunately we can only
wait &  see).

However, there are other issues too. But in addition - the Italians were
slow to start contact tracing & isolation. That allowed spread and
reservoirs  In some contrast to Germany.
As far as Germany is concerned: The Robert Koch Institute that
developed the WHO approved test - was very vigilant and active from the
outset. It started a very clear public understanding early on. And rapid
isolation of patients - the first from a contact with a Chinese
businesswoman in Munich visiting a factory. They from that published an
early paper in NEJM, showing that the transmission was by an *asymptomatic*
person. ThIs was hugely controversial then, but it is apparently true - and
an important vector.

*By the bye: *
All bourgeois politicians are essentially cut from the same cloth. Yet *there
are* differences. (we see evident differences between communists on this
list... I would venture to say. Why is it any different?).
Did anyone see the broadcast of *Angela Merkel* a few days ago? [Find at
AZD or Der Spiegel - it is not dubbed though].
 It was evidently sincere, kind and very straightforward. I have *never*
heard a bourgeois politician with a sincerity, in an address to the nation
 - thank: "The cashiers at supermarkets and the workers who fill the
shelves - Thank you".

Hari Kumar


> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 02:08:03 +
> From: Chris Slee 
> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
> 
> Cc: John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Marxism]
> Message-ID:
> <
> sl2p216mb0490d23449b2e799bf7ddc7ec4...@sl2p216mb0490.korp216.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> An article by Sarah Newey in the Telegraph cites several factors,
> including high rates of air pollution in northern Italy, high rates of
> smoking, and the high proportion of old people (Italy has the second oldest
> population in the world, and 87 percent of deaths are patients over 70
> years old).
>
> Staffing levels in hospitals are inadequate.
>
> But there is also an issue in recording the cause of death.  In Italy all
> who die in hospital with the virus are assumed to be dying as a result of
> the virus, though most of them also have at least one other disease.
>
> Chris Slee
> 
> From: Marxism  on behalf of John
> Reimann via Marxism 
> Sent: Friday, 20 March 2020 10:56:34 AM
> To: Chris Slee 
> Cc: John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Marxism] Italian & German mortality rates
>
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> *
>
> I was just checking the latest mortality statistics. According to the site
> below, the mortality rate of those counted is a massive 8.3% in Italy,
> while it's a minuscule 0.28% in Germany. Presumably a large part of that
> difference is due to Italy having missed thousands of cases, thus having
> reduced the total number. But that massive of a difference? Does anybody
> have any idea how to explain it?
>
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR2kuIKZC6pBYubhUdS_M-Rsp3OOwZ9b0mHCzgLD-dTr64gAhBMR-vI34ss#countries
>
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[Marxism] Six Key Demands from the UK pro-NHS group: 'Keep Our NHS Public'.

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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This is from the Chair of the British group:
  'Keep Our NHS Public" - Dr John Puntis - who is based in Leeds.
   I only give here the short preamble; and 'Six Key
Demands'; a link to a petition; and teh conclusions. If anyone wants the
whole pamphlet let me know off-line.
Cheers Hari Kumar
_
It’s clear that an urgent intervention is needed on the government’s
Coronavirus response. Despite the massive threat posed by the pandemic,
Boris Johnson isn't doing what’s needed to support our health workers as
they confront this crisis. This is doubly alarming given that our NHS is
going into action following a decade of under-funding, under-staffing, and
undermining from Conservative-led governments.


That’s why a new petition putting *six key demands* to the government has
just been launched. The demands are:

1.*Covid-19 testing and personal protective equipment (PPE) must be
available for all NHS and social care staff now*

2.*Those relying on social care (or ‘Direct Payments’) must be given
immediate support if carers go sick *

3.*NHS support staff (including those outsourced) must receive at least
living wage, paid sick leave for illness or self-isolation and an increase
in statutory sick pay *

4.*Bring private health resources into public service without
compensation to fight COVID-19 and aid NHS response *

5.*Make all information that the Government is basing its strategy on
wholly available for public scrutiny*

6.*An immediate end to legislation enforcing eligibility checks and
charging in the NHS, including those related to residency status or
national origin, allowing all patients to use the NHS without fear*

*Please click here to sign the petition* and – most importantly of all –
share it now to all your friends and contacts. .

*CUT*


*Conclusion*



By the 4thth March 2020, 3,400 Chinese health workers were infected with
coronavirus and 13 had died including the brave Dr. Li Wenliang who first
brought the disease to the attention of the authorities, for which he was
severely reprimanded. It is vital that all health and social care staff
coming into contact with patients have the best possible protection. This
must include PPE as outlined in the current guidance from the DHSC, but in
addition, staff must also be given the choice of wearing FFP masks as an
alternative to FRSM. Solving problems of production and distribution
together with provision of fit testing must be speedily resolved by NHS
England with the support of government.


*END*
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Re: [Marxism] New Study claims that Fatality Rate in Wuhan was much lower

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re: Message: 11
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:03:08 +0100
From: RKOB 
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition

Subject: [Marxism] New Study claims that Fatality Rate in Wuhan was
much lower
Message-ID: <8d6064fc-2929-18c8-22ee-2a72d9a04...@rkob.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

One of my comrades with medical background drew my attention to an
interesting new study from Chinese scientists. It says that the fatality
rate of COVID-19 in Wuhan has been 1.4%, i.e. substantially lower than
initially reported (4.5%)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0822-7

Dear Michael:

1) The overtly fascist Modi government has long attacked even any semblance
of opposition in Kashmir. It does not need the COVID 19 excuse; and nor
does the Kashmiri opposition, get fooled by pretences this has anything to
do with COVID-19. But you have written a lot on this matter - which broadly
I agree with - so you know this.

2) Algeria - like Chile - yes there may be national variations.

3) Your article linked to below is of marked interest. It is a letter -
which does go through a peer review process, but in my experience is
usually not quite as 'sharp'.
Nonetheless, thank you for alerting us to this.
There are a couple of things about this that, however, warrant a close
reading. It does not show what superficially may be thought to show: "
fatality rate was much lower in Wuhan".

i) This is modelling data. Yes this mythology does have a role - but it
then critically depends upon what assumptions and what inputs you enable to
enter the model. And actually for the most part, the authors are very
humble about it (see my point iii) below.

ii) One thing they do not really come clean about is the following issue.
 As I read it, this is a
paper that *only* uses data of people who flew out of Wuhan - and were not
part of the Wuhan susceptible pool for the final data-set. So if I
understand it right,  it sets them up as a 'captive' population. Thus -
you would I assume - want this population to have the advantage of 100%
testing - to put that set of data into the modelling. But is this what
happened? Actually it is buried away, in 'supplementary Tables' - that it
is not what happened. it is not known what proportion of those passengers
flown out were indeed tested:

"See: *Supplementary Tables 1–9. ** Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Germany,
Belgium and Malaysia had tested all the passengers and a few
pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic cases were confirmed. For other countries,
it is unknown whether they had tested all the passengers or only those
showing symptoms. “ Supplementary Table 3. [See: Supplementary Information *-
https://static- 
content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41591-020-0822-

7/MediaObjects/41591_2020_822_MOESM1_ESM.pdf *

iii) To avid this becoming an overlong mail, I only then ask that the final
section of the letter be looked at carefully. They themselves
acknowledge many limitations, which is why I said they were humble about
this finding. They say this: "Several important caveats are worth
mentioning, as follows. First, and most importantly, our modeled estimates
have necessarily relied on numerous strong assumptions".

As I had said in my article, there is a lot we (collectively) and
more especially I (the narrow me) still do not know. We need to
be cautious. And once more I am not an ID specialist. I know a reasonable
amount of trail-based epidemiology, but the epidemiology involved in
ID gets more and more distinct.

In solidarity, Hari Kumar

PS: Louis: I am sorry if this again turns out to be too narrowly spaced. I
tried to obey your injunctions

to format better. If still poorly formatted, I will again try something
different.


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Re: [Marxism] New Study claims that Fatality Rate in Wuhan was much lower

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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So sorry - 'point 3(i) should not read the word 'mythology' - but
'METHODOLOGY.."
i) This is modelling data. Yes this METHODOLOGY does have a role - but it
then critically depends upon what assumptions and what inputs you enable to
enter the model. And actually for the most part, the authors are very
humble about it (see my point iii) below. "

I blame Apple's automatisms - not any latent bias on this particular point..

H

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 3:06 PM hari kumar  wrote:

> re: Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:03:08 +0100
> From: RKOB 
> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
> 
> Subject: [Marxism] New Study claims that Fatality Rate in Wuhan was
> much lower
> Message-ID: <8d6064fc-2929-18c8-22ee-2a72d9a04...@rkob.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> One of my comrades with medical background drew my attention to an
> interesting new study from Chinese scientists. It says that the fatality
> rate of COVID-19 in Wuhan has been 1.4%, i.e. substantially lower than
> initially reported (4.5%)
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0822-7
> 
> Dear Michael:
>
> 1) The overtly fascist Modi government has long attacked even any
> semblance of opposition in Kashmir. It does not need the COVID 19 excuse;
> and nor does the Kashmiri opposition, get fooled by pretences this has
> anything to do with COVID-19. But you have written a lot on this matter -
> which broadly I agree with - so you know this.
>
> 2) Algeria - like Chile - yes there may be national variations.
>
> 3) Your article linked to below is of marked interest. It is a letter -
> which does go through a peer review process, but in my experience is
> usually not quite as 'sharp'.
> Nonetheless, thank you for alerting us to this.
> There are a couple of things about this that, however, warrant a close
> reading. It does not show what superficially may be thought to show: "
> fatality rate was much lower in Wuhan".
>
> i) This is modelling data. Yes this mythology does have a role - but it
> then critically depends upon what assumptions and what inputs you enable to
> enter the model. And actually for the most part, the authors are very
> humble about it (see my point iii) below.
>
> ii) One thing they do not really come clean about is the following issue.
>As I read it, this is
> a paper that *only* uses data of people who flew out of Wuhan - and
> were not part of the Wuhan susceptible pool for the final data-set. So if I
> understand it right,  it sets them up as a 'captive' population. Thus -
> you would I assume - want this population to have the advantage of 100%
> testing - to put that set of data into the modelling. But is this what
> happened? Actually it is buried away, in 'supplementary Tables' - that it
> is not what happened. it is not known what proportion of those passengers
> flown out were indeed tested:
>
> "See: *Supplementary Tables 1–9. ** Japan, Singapore, South Korea,
> Germany, Belgium and Malaysia had tested all the passengers and a few
> pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic cases were confirmed. For other countries,
> it is unknown whether they had tested all the passengers or only those
> showing symptoms. “ Supplementary Table 3. [See: Supplementary
> Information *- https://static- 
> content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41591-020-0822-
> 
> 7/MediaObjects/41591_2020_822_MOESM1_ESM.pdf *
>
> iii) To avid this becoming an overlong mail, I only then ask that the
> final section of the letter be looked at carefully. They themselves
> acknowledge many limitations, which is why I said they were humble about
> this finding. They say this: "Several important caveats are worth
> mentioning, as follows. First, and most importantly, our modeled estimates
> have necessarily relied on numerous strong assumptions".
>
> As I had said in my article, there is a lot we (collectively) and
> more especially I (the narrow me) still do not know. We need to
> be cautious. And once more I am not an ID specialist. I know a reasonable
> amount of trail-based epidemiology, but the epidemiology involved in
> ID gets more and more distinct.
>
> In solidarity, Hari Kumar
>
> PS: Louis: I am sorry if this again turns out to be too narrowly spaced. I
> tried to obey your injunctions
>
> to format better. If still poorly formatted, I will again try something
> different.
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Revolution?r-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG
>> (?sterreichische Sektion der RCIT, 

Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 197, Issue 37

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"personal distancing plus social solidarity"
Re Michael:
I suggested some of the medical counsel in my prior link (
http://ml-today.com/2020/03/17/how-should-marxists-view-the-covid-19-pandemic-of-2019-2020/
).
I am not an infectious diseases expert, but as an academic researcher in
the newborn ICU - I think I have interpreted the data accurately.
I think the three key points you are missing are:
1) The infectivity - or transmissibility of COVID-19 is very high. It is
termed the Ro factor, and it is in table 1 - drawn from the work of Dr
Chen.
2) The equation that I think - you still seem to be making - is between the
various varieties of 'flu' and the COVID-19. They are *not* equatable.
Largely because: of the higher death rate; but perhaps even more
importantly is the absence of so-called 'herd immunity'; and the absence of
a vaccine, which is admittedly only amiable to those who are 'covered' in
the US system or how take up state programmes such as in Germany, or
even... the 'austerity-ridden' NIHS-UK.
3) The issue of Italy not deriving benefit from quarantine is - I believe
misunderstood. That is because they waited a long time. But in the end had
they not acted, the death rate would have been *even* higher. (There were
indications I understand, that the North of Italy might have been aware of
a large unique epicentre).
The exemplar on quarantining, for instance are likely, Taiwan, Singapore
and South Korea - all did impose a form of quarantining (S.Korea was quite
relatively easy as the epicenter was localised around that Church); but
crucially coupled with a mass diagnostic testing.

Defending the health care systems I agree is very important. I made the
point that the effects of the so-called 'austerity cuts' in some of the
European countries (including Italy)  - is dramatic. In other countries
where no universal health care systems have been present (USA) - the
negative effects will be even greater. The USA is compounded by being worse
than Italy in being slow and with no wide-spread diagnostics testing.
I think *after* this epidemic - there will be moments form the bourgeoisie
themselves to have better health care systems (a la Engels' 'Angel of death
quote'); and the workers will mobile more to demand restoration of the
austerity cuts at minimum - in the so-called welfare states.

You raise a good point about Chile. I guess there are two things:
1) In particular countries, there may be different decisions.
2) Even the radicals and militants will be mowed down by this
non-discriminator epidemic.

I guess I agree with a lot of Mark's comments here.
Anyway, stay safe all. Especially the older... that includes me as wells
you Louis.

Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 197, Issue 31

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>
> Modified title: More Social perspectives on COVID-19. follows: Re COVID-19
> Social and Political Analyses - New Politics
>

Last week & week before, there were a 3-4 messages on COVID that seemed
unduly skeptical to me. Since then I'm glad the tide shifted on this list.
Here is another 'corrective' piece, which is however now much less needed.
However it also has some perspectives that are different from other recent
ones.

http://ml-today.com/2020/03/17/how-should-marxists-view-the-covid-19-pandemic-of-2019-2020/
 The first largest third of this piece reprises some key medical
literature; the last third has some material from the Financial Times with
chimes well with Patrick Bond's alert yesterday on oil prices - targeting
the expensive shale extraction methods of the USA.

In the start of the piece is this small section on the relationship of
health reforms to capitalist society:
"Throughout this, Marxists may recall how Friedrich Engels wrote about
infectious diseases:

“Capitalist rule cannot allow itself the pleasure of creating epidemic
diseases among the working class with impunity; the consequences fall back
on it and the angel of death rages in its ranks as ruthlessly as in the
ranks of the workers.”

In about 1980, a Marxist history of medicine concluded that there were
three fundamental reasons that a ruling class provided health care benefits
for its working classes:

“The motives which drive a class society to the establishment and
maintenance of an institutionalised system of health care are:
Firstly to ensure good health for the ruling class itself; sanitary reforms
often followed the spread of epidemics from over-crowded slums to the
quarters inhabited by the well-to-do;Secondly, to
ensure a minimum of health for the working class in order to maximize its
capacity to produce profit for the ruling class; at particular junctures this
becomes especially important – for example, in time of war when there is a need
for cannon fodder from the working class;
Thirdly, to avert social
unrest among the working class – unrest presenting the threat of social
revolution which would sweep away the class society itself. As that wily
gentlemen of the upper classes, Joseph Chamberlain expressed it bluntly:
  “What ransom will property pay for
the security which it enjoys?..  What insurance will wealth find it to its
advantage to provide?”

Cheers Hari Kumar


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[Marxism] Fwd: Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

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From: hari kumar 
Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:55 AM
Subject: Re:  Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition 

1) Most of the discussion I have seen here, has turned around broader
questions of Sanders vision regarding 'socialism'. Interesting to this
group for sure, including whether he defends or not - Castro - etc.
This discussion has its own merits.
But how it is viewed, by an electorate - is prone to both ideology and
advertising.
So it is 'pliable'.

2) But no one, I believe, has even commented on the willingness with which
he allows himself to be painted as unthinking and unable to substantiate
public benefit funding. For example, why is he not clearer on the public
health care funding issue? He simply plays into the myth that 'socialists'
are free-spenders with no thought behind it.
I mean is it so difficult to read (or for his myriad advisers) to read the
lancet - See:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext
His response to Anderson Cooper on the 60 minutes thing is quite abysmal:
(Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:27:39 -0500 From: Louis Proyect 
 From "Sixty Minutes" last night.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EgTXJ-49IQ
 )

3) Having said all that - I do agree with Michael M's statements that the
progressives and working class, have to get rid of Trump as the incumbent.
Having said that - while butressing and working within whatever broad
movements do come up (including the Sanders forces) - an independent broad
workers party is surely needed.

Not saying anything new here, I recognise that - except to point out the
cack-handed responses of Sanders - who clearly has an empty rhetorical, and
braggartish swagger to him. A few more soberly painted facts might help.

Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

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1) Most of the discussion I have seen here, has turned around broader
questions of Sanders vision regarding 'socialism'. Interesting to this
group for sure, including whether he defends or not - Castro - etc.
This discussion has its own merits.
But how it is viewed, by an electorate - is prone to both ideology and
advertising.
So it is 'pliable'.

2) But no one, I believe, has even commented on the willingness with which
he allows himself to be painted as unthinking and unable to substantiate
public benefit funding. For example, why is he not clearer on the public
health care funding issue? He simply plays into the myth that 'socialists'
are free-spenders with no thought behind it.
I mean is it so difficult to read (or for his myriad advisers) to read the
lancet - See:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext
His response to Anderson Cooper on the 60 minutes thing is quite abysmal:
(Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:27:39 -0500 From: Louis Proyect 
 From "Sixty Minutes" last night.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EgTXJ-49IQ
 )

3) Having said all that - I do agree with Michael M's statements that the
progressives and working class, have to get rid of Trump as the incumbent.
Having said that - while butressing and working within whatever broad
movements do come up (including the Sanders forces) - an independent broad
workers party is surely needed.

Not saying anything new here, I recognise that - except to point out the
cack-handed responses of Sanders - who clearly has an empty rhetorical, and
braggartish swagger to him. A few more soberly painted facts might help.

Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] More on Brexit

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Thanks to all here, for prior texts on Brexit. I think not enough
emphasis has been put on why Brexit debate-election happened in
first place.
Anyway - this is slightly different viewpoint. I also think that the LP
threw the election.
http://ml-today.com/2019/12/21/the-general-election-of-december-2019-in-the-united-kingdom-uk-a-thrown-election/
Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Garbis AltinogluMarxism Digest, Vol 192, Issue 32

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>
> Louis:
>
Louis:
First thanks for posting this. I  do however want to correct your
description: 'lurker'. It is true, that as a ML-ist, I do not post here
often. But I have posted. I keep out of fruitless areas of contention. I
sent it to you to ensure that I was not posting something only of interest
to ML-ists. I may not have been clear enough.
But thanks again.
Hari Kumar
___

> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:39:31 -0400L
> Subject: [Marxism] Garbis Altinoglu
> Message-ID: <182b38dd-fc2a-575a-c538-dd32115ca...@panix.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> (Forwarded from a lurker.)
>
> It is my very sad duty to inform the progressive and Marxist community
> that Garbis Altinoglu passed away 4 days ago. It was the case that he
> was a ML-ist, however perhaps some on the list my be interested and
> perhaps mourn his death. For those in Belgium, his funeral takes place
> on Monday.
>
> Altinoglu became a Marxist, from an early age. His full memory will be
> commemorate by ML-Currents-Today at a later juncture. Here only a few
> sparse details are offered.
>
> -He was imprisoned for approximately ten years in the Turkish fascist
> jails, and although he did not like to talk about this,  he was
> tortured. He wrote a book documenting the prisons of the Turkish
> fascists and copies are still available.
>
> - He was a leading member of the MLCP of Turkey, although he later left
> on principled grounds. His evaluation of the ML-ist left in Turkey can
> be found at the website of AllianceML - Under 'T' for Turkey.
> Here:, are some other articles of his in English:
>
> Articles by Garbis Altinoglu
> The HIZBULLAH Of Turkey
> http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/HIZBULLAHGA2000.HTM
> History of MLCP And the Revolutionary Movement
> http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/ALL35MLCP%28TURKEY%29GA2000.HTM
> Summary of the Ordeal in Turkish Prisons;
> http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/ALL37-GARBISPRISONS2000.HTM
>
> He was a staunch translator into Turkish of key texts from Marx and others.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOV and the Green New Deal - climate and the money trail

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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>
> Dear Tony:
>
You attack Engdahl as a Larouchite. I also appreciate, that you cite
> articles showing he apparently is also a previous climate denier.


Nevertheless, in Ralph's linked article ( below) that you urge dismissal
of, there appear to some points linking various companies and institutions
to adopting aspects of reformist greening. Are you saying these are
factually wrong? Or are you saying these should not even be considered as
they emanate from a dubious source?

Thanks for considering,
Hari Kumar

Ralph Johansen

> https://www.globalresearch.ca/climate-money-trail/5690209
>
>
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[Marxism] [Discussion] Left of Europe, by Ashley Smith | Harper's Magazine

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To David Walters: Who wrote:
dwalters
To: Louis Proyect via Marxism 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] [Discussion] Left of Europe, by Ashley Smith |
Davidson clearly stands for Brexit. His arguments are quite clear. His
analysis is a clearly Marxist one. People here who oppose Brexit will be
very disappointed. A worthwhile contribution to the "EU" discussion.

David W.
_
Response:
David,
I think all on the British left agree that there is a splintering of the
current forces of reaction. That this itself has led to a very divided view
on he left is not supporting.
Here is (yet) another perspective, from the viewpoint that focuses a bit
upon the relevance of the USA vs EU inter-imperial splits. [See below].
Regards, Hari Kumar.

03 September 2019
How Should Marxist-Leninists View the Impending ‘No Deal Brexit’ Withdrawal
from the European Union (EU) of the UK?
 (661 KB)
http://ml-today.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/brexit.pdf


>
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Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 180, Issue 38

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 [Marxism] The-Opportunity-Costs-of-Socialism.pdf [not
sent]

Regarding the health care systems - and whether interim solutions short of
a fully communist health care systems are of any benefit to the working
class:
I have now worked in 4 health care systems as an academic intensive care
physician for children.  Having basically been left jobless as Thatcher cut
the NHS dramatically, I was forced to travel unless I went private.
In my own working life, I have no doubt that a capitalist system sponsored
'socialised' health care is infinitely superior. I do not think any one
working in the health care services, with any dual experience of a national
insurance plan (e.g. UK; Canada; much of Europe) versus a fully privatised
system (USA), could doubt that the first is superior - for the working
class.
1) Objective data; on adult mortality; on infant mortality; there can be no
doubt that despite the reformist aspects of the health care systems in the
former - confirms this. Myriads of data has supported this, much of it
adduced by PNHP and in the USA, Woolhandler and Himmelstein; and in Canada
by Guyatt.
2) No doubt that especially on issues of public health-prevention (Perhaps
for us, most importantly initially championed by Engels, then the great
physician Rudolph Virchow; and then by for , e.g., Henry Sigerist and of
course many, many others since), the capitalist health care systems
generally do not pay attention to this.
3) Nonetheless, capitalist systems have varied in their penetration of
prevention. For e.g. the Scandinavian systems, even now, with their
increasing concerns with cut-backs, have good (excellent) he alt care
preventive strategies for prematurity, for maternal benefits,
peri-pregnancy leaves etc.
4) The primary reasons for capitalist systems to introduce the health care
systems in general were, partly identified by Engels in his path-breaking
"Condition of the WC etc".  Namely (i) the scourges of contagion do not
restrict themselves to the workers alone, but - being infectious - 'travel'
- and thereby affect the ruling class also. Hence - the bourgeoisie
protects itself by reforms. Such as Jeremy Chadwick's immense sanitation
works in the middle of the Industrial Revolution. (ii) To enable a health
working class gun-fodder - witness the improvements post Boer War (iii) To
defang revolutionary ferment (iv) Finally, a heath work force by and large
increases dividends to an industrially inclined bourgeoisie (of less
importance as far as I can see to the financial capitalist sections). So -
objectively - many of the more far-sighted capitalist classes have accepted
that a decent helot care system overall - benefits they themselves.

I guess the point of this post is to just simply agree with Meeropol - that
it is worth protecting a 'socialised' system, and attempts to move towards
that. Albeit they are 'reformist'.  A single payer system is undoubtedly
better than otherwise, as it does reduce at least a couple of non-rational
drivers: The insurers and physicians tendency to bill for profit; and it
also potentially enables reducing drug expenditure.
Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] moderately interesting

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When Max Elbaum's book first came out, I think I was trying to ge tone of
our people Michael... Forget surname p to do a review. Anyway, this came
up. At some stage, if anyone has energy it needs rebutting and a
commentary. Of course, many other priori tie.s
HK

https://www.viewpointmag.com/2018/07/19/lessons-from-one-left-to-the-next-revolution-in-the-air-reissued/
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Re: [Marxism] Howard Zinn from 2005 - "Don't despair over the Supreme Court"

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Regarding:

> Dennis Brasky 
> excerpt -
> "There is enormous hypocrisy surrounding the pious veneration of the
> Constitution and ?the rule of law.? The Constitution, like the Bible, is
> infinitely flexible and is used to serve the political needs of the moment.
> When the country was in economic crisis and turmoil in the Thirties and
> capitalism needed to be saved from the anger of the poor and hungry and
> unemployed, the Supreme Court was willing to stretch to infinity the
> constitutional right of Congress to regulate interstate commerce. It
> decided that the national government, desperate to regulate farm
> production, could tell a family farmer what to grow on his tiny piece of
> land CUT..
> It would be naive to depend on the Supreme Court to defend the rights of
> poor people, women, people of color, dissenters of all kinds. Those rights
> only come alive when citizens organize, protest, demonstrate, strike,
> boycott, rebel, and violate the law in order to uphold justice.
> http://www.howardzinn.org/dont-despair-about-the-supreme-court/
>
> Dear Denis: Obviously Zinn made an enormous contribution to progressives
and Marxists, when he emulated A.L.Morton's "A People's History of England"
- & performed the same treatment for the USA. You do not comment on the
excerpt, but I take it you are approving?  And are perhaps (?) suggesting
that the current  furore over  the Supreme Court is misplaced.
If you are, or if you are not -  will you please forgive these two points? :
1) "It would be naive to depend on the Supreme Court " etc...
The salient word here is "*depend*". Who, in fact, "depends" upon it? No
Marxist striper of any sort I believe.
2) In addition, is not a several shades-worth of difference between - for
e.g. - a Bader Ginsburg and Kavanaugh - a potential benefit to the workers
and women of the USA? (Please notice the word 'potential').
The above I suspect many on the list would agree with.

However, I doubt this following point, will have any resonance here. But I
suppose I should state this - perhaps to salve my own mind - but to be even
more explicit.  Therefore, here is a larger point:
In the same vein, should Marxists take account of a potential split between
two inveterate parties of capital - as are Democrats and Republicans? I
believe that it can be shown that there is a *primarily* pro-Industrial
wing of capital (republicans) and a *primarily* pro-Finance capital wing
(democrats). Of course given the inter-penetration of capitals since Lenin
echoed parts of Hilferding, nothing is *absolute*. As industrial capital
itself saw the ease, in the period of 'financialisation', of making profits
without *producing* *anything*  (or at least as much of as it had been
won't to do previously) - it became 'financialised'. And of course *both*
Democrats and Republicans cannot do without the financial capitalist class.
Nonetheless, there is a - *perhaps only a smidgen* - but there *is a
difference*.
Anyway, forgive me if I have misunderstood your underlying point in your
clip from Zinn.
Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] 1. Re: Gun rights are about keeping white men on top - The Washington Post (DW)

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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Dear David:

Honestly, I have great respect for what you have (and others) have done
with the MIA. It was and is a great archival boon to all socialists of
whatever stripe. Thank you.

But on this matter of gun-control, I really think you must be totally
deaf & archival dust must be in your ears.  As an ex-paediatric intensive
care physician - I saw what guns do - and to what class the majority of the
hits are aimed at.
Let me ask you what you might *actually* say to this woman who is
interviewed here. This is of course not any historical archive, but a real
living woman.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/03/30/i-wont-keep-calm-i-have-a-black-son/

Best ,
Hari Kumar

--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 06:09:58 -0700
> From: DW 
> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
> 
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Gun rights are about keeping white men on top -
> The Washington Post
> Message-ID:
> 

[Marxism] 6. protest in Oakland: A new movement struggling to be born? (John Reimann) 9. The Socialist Case for Gun Control (Louis Proyect)

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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I am glad that there is some recognition here, of the qualitatively new
phenomenon that went to the streets yesterday.
When this issue was raised on the list recently, there was a lot of
push-back on simple common-sense. No doubt there will still be that same
push-back.
What is the saying - the masses are ahead of the party (could substitute
enlightened leftists)?
No doubt these marches, are a long way from an understanding of the need
for socialism.
But - I am sure it is a 'starter' phenomenon.
Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 173, Issue 31

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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Re: Andrew Pollack 
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition

Subject: [Marxism] How Genetics Is Changing Our Understanding of
?Race?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-race.html


Hi: I would be grateful of the whole article in some way could be posted -
especially interested in this issue. Would that be possible? Thanks for
considering,
Cheers Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] is a controversial nuclear plant to blame for soaring thyroid cancer rates in New York

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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This may be rather late. Nonetheless;
Jeff and David gave good explanations of chance findings (p value and what
a 95% probability might really mean).
But while raising the issue - they only indirectly discuss 'totality' of
evidence. Perhaps these points might assist:
1) the gold standard for therapy studies is the Randomised controlled trial.
2) but you cannot test all by that. For various reasons that even a
socialist state cannot overcome, altho' it will be better by far.
3) generally, the gold standard for aetiology - are large observational
studies. (Emphasise large).
4) perhaps the real point around which this discussion has revolved is:
there is rarely enough evidence to be 100% definite. But the progressive
elimination of doubt ( assymptotically closer to 'truth') is only possible
through replication. This is close to what jeff and david refer to as
'totality' of evidence. But I think the concept conveys a bit more. It
begins to unveil other issues - such as "non-rational" spurs to data
production, and interpretation (read scientific greed or ego or pride). See
John Ioannides PLOS; his paper on "why most research findings are false" -
became the most widely cited paper in medicine and (i think) the natural
sciences.

On the content area in general, there is little doubt that environmental
triggers for cancers may well explain the epidemic proportions of cancers
nowadays. But this is not in general, controversial - i believe - even in
purely academic circles. The burden of proof is however viewed as half-full
or half-empty by different opinions.
Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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>
>1. Re:  Hundreds of sexual assaults in Cologne - what the hell
>   happened ? any answers from German list members? (A.R. G)



> I guess I am pretty stunned that ARG and Williams - feel it necessary to
> minimise (a la "What was so bad") about that?
>
1.  The fact that racists are looking for a vehicle ot attack on the
refugee issue is only to be expected.
2. To deny that this is a serious issue - is to play into the hands of the
racists.
3. There is no doubt that a misogynist viewpoint is expressed by various
cultures. This is often exacerbated in cultures where religious
fundamentalism is more the 'norm' than in the Western cultures many of us
inhabit.  But that simply does not excuse the dissonance of many in the
West who were remarkably generous to immigrants.
4. This veil of ultra-leftism - 'defend the immigrants-refugees whatever
they do' - is remarkably short sighted.
5. That the police actions could have been better (Williams) may or may not
be true. I do not know the layout in Cologne railway Station.
The same however also happened in Hamburg. The same - albeit in differing
history-circumstances happened in the North of England.

Closing Leftist eyes to such events, simply allows a massive reactionary
reverberation.
Hari Kumar

>
>
>
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[Marxism] Patrick Bond: Re 'China's 'socialist' billionaires

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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24 Dec 2015 09:56:34 +0200
Patrick Bond wrote:
Pr?bsting argues, "China became capitalist long ago (in the early
1990s) and through two and half decades of hyper-accumulation of capital,
a significant big bourgeoisie has emerged there. As we have elaborated in a
number of works, China has become an emerging imperialist power."
The Marini (1972) definition applies: China is a key national state
within the larger imperial system, as does Harvey's (2001) definition of
a capitalist class which once absorbed surpluses but now exports these.
Any feedback or advice on this matter? China as imperialist,
inter-imperialist, sub-imperialist? (Anyone want to argue for
__

Hello Patrick:
Can you give me a quick handy definition of 'sub-impelrialist" and
"sub-imperialilist" and "anti-imperialist" and even "inter-imperialist"?
   Honestly, I do plan to get your book!
But till such felicitious time... a simple definition?
It would seem superficially to me that the term imperialist is quite
adequate for China. Why isn't it? Am I being too Occamy about this?
And no - this Hoxhaite - does not wish to argue for China as being an
anti-imperialist state.
Best wishes Hari
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[Marxism] What state would not be willing to use nuclear weapons on its own people?

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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On 9/15/15 1:26 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
> What state would not be willing to use nuclear weapons on its own people?

"Well, any capitalist country at least. But socialist Russia was supposed
to be different, right? I know that few people here believe that but I
am wrangling with an unreconstructed Stalinist on my blog now over what
I wrote about the 1956 uprising in Hungary and was forced to put the
ultra-Stalinist Charley Andrews, who was removed from Marxmail a while
back, in a kill file for his obsessive defense of Stalin, etc on PEN-L".

Louis: You are so authoritative aren't you?
Exactly what year are you talking about? .

I do not know what you mean by an 'ultra-stalinist' - but if you mean
someone who does not follow the line that "written history supports the
winners"  - rather than those who might have a better answer, you better
get rid of me.
i) JVS was NOT responsible for all that happened in the USSR. But you
appear to believe a single man controls all the events.
ii) You (& Your mentor Trotsky) appear to believe that JVS should have
exported revolution in the 1920-1930s against all other states in the
absence of adequate objective factors (Yes - I know - you really hate the
term objective) - but you castigate him for the post-WWII drive to the
establishment of pre-revolutionary states in the Eastern European states.
iii) You pose as an anti-sectarian - when in fact you are full of it.

Before both of us die, at least this - I have precious little time to write
further - needs to be said.
You are a frank hypocrite.
Your recent posturing and twists on Syriza demonstrate what your "defence"
of Marxism is all about.
So - get rid of me if oyu choose.
Let me just say - I find being on your list useful - Despite all the shite
you throw around like some beaver-tail marking territory.
But fine - if you choose - get rid of me. I have restrained myself for too
long,
Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Fascinating interview with the director of "The Golden Dream

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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"Fascinating interview with the director of "The Golden Dream" that I
reviewed for CounterPunch.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/19/a-conversation-with-film-director-diego-quemada-diez/

I find the method described by Diez is strikingly like that described by
Maxim Gorki in distilling a "type" - and not a simple naturalisitic
depiction of a single individual.
Hari Kumar
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[Marxism] Another Aspect of the Character of A.Dershowitz

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/08/alan-dershowitz-girl-jeffrey-epstein-teenager
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