Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/2/18 4:27 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:


When Salih Muslim talks of the "regime change project", he is not referring to 
the original uprising against Assad, but the attempt to use that uprising to instal a new 
government backed by Turkey and the West.  He makes the point that such a government was 
likely to be repressive towards the Kurds.



I have no idea why you and Nick can't simply come out and say that this 
guy keeps coming out with outrageous statements. You remind me of of 
Sarah Sanders trying to explain Donald Trump.


In 2016, Sputnik ran an article titled "Russian Campaign Saved Syria 
From 'Becoming Part of New Ottoman Empire'":


MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's aerial campaign in Syria has reinforced 
Moscow's positions among other countries and contributed to the 
multipolarity in the world, Syria's Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) 
co-chairman Saleh Muslim told Sputnik.


"The Russian campaign in Syria has strengthened country's positions in 
the world affairs. I believe, this was the end of the unipolar world. We 
can talk about multipolar world now," Muslim said.


He added that Moscow's aerial campaign had also changed Washington's 
perception of terrorists, pushing the United States to change its stance 
with regard to several militant groups in the region.


According to the PYD co-chairman, Russia's support of Syria prevented 
the Middle Eastern nation "from being cut into pieces and becoming a 
part of a new Ottoman Empire."


---

This is just fucking outrageous. Russia was bombing hospitals, apartment 
buildings and helping to starve East Aleppo into submission in 2016. 
This guy has crappy politics. He is as slimy as the Socialist Equality 
Party or Moon of Alabama.


I am for woman's emancipation and even utopian experiments. But this 
kind of shit makes me wonder how the PYD leadership can get a free pass 
from Graeber and the Greenleft. I guess beauty is in the eye of the 
beholder.


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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Salih Muslim's statement that "many who were siding with the insurrection were 
coming from the mosques" was very unfortunate in its wording.  But I think he 
was referring to the  Islamist (and Sunni sectarian) politics of much of the 
rebel leadership.  He said the goal of the PYD was a "democratic and secular 
state".  The Islamists had a different goal, so they were not allies.

When Salih Muslim talks of the "regime change project", he is not referring to 
the original uprising against Assad, but the attempt to use that uprising to 
instal a new government backed by Turkey and the West.  He makes the point that 
such a government was likely to be repressive towards the Kurds.

Chris Slee



From: Marxism  on behalf of mkaradjis . 
via Marxism 
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 1:24:02 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

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Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state.
Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013,
repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the
PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the
very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems
arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's
own Arab nationalist background.

PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared
themselves neutral as early as mid-2011:

“Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been
fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic
and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized
that many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the
mosques and we thought that those were not good travel companions for
us.” http://kurdistantribune.com/2016/salih-muslim-time-has-proved-us-right/

Yes, thousands of Syrians were pouring out of mosques – one of the
only safe places – and going to protest for democracy against Assad
from the earliest days; it is immensely sectarian (in the political
sense) to see all these people as your enemies “a few months” into the
uprising, as if every worshipper protesting for democracy and freedom
is a crazed jihadist.

In an interview back in 2011, Salih Muslim (who was curiously allowed
back into Syria by Assad, following years of exile), also used
familiar Assadist tropes in defining the uprising as a western “regime
change” operation:

“As PYD, we believe that the international plan asking for a change in
Syria is not in favor of the peoples … In return for assuming the
leading role on Syria, Turkey received compromises by the West on
suppressing the Syrian Kurds. One of the major reasons of the regime
change project in Syria was to eliminate the Kurdish” (PYD Lideri
Salih Müslim ile Röportaj, “Suriye’de Kürtler yol haritası
çıkartıyor”, Firat News Agency, 12 September 2011, cited in
http://www.todayszaman.com/todays-think-tanks_syrias-pkk-game_271361.html).

Then there were the PYD attacks on Kurdish anti-Assad demonstrations,
beginning in Afrin in February 2012. I quoted from Burning Country on
this in a recent post. here is another report:

“On February 3, 2012, organized attacks by sympathizers of the
Democratic Union Party (PYD) injured at least 17 people in ʿAfrin.
Armed PYD supporters surrounded approximately three hundred supporters
of the Kurdish Patriotic Conference as they were gathering for a
dissident demonstration. The PYD demanded that the demonstrators walk
behind their flag. When the demonstrators refused and chanted “Azadî”
(“Freedom”), they were attacked with billy clubs, knives, chains, and
guns.
… Syrian security forces did not intervene. Numerous demonstrators
were brought to the hospital—however, some of them could not be
treated as the PYD also continued its attacks there.”
http://kurdwatch.org/en/interview8/html?aid=2449=en

According to the same report, five demonstrations took place the same
day in al-Qamishli. The regime arrested several people, but also
“during the demonstration in al-Antariyah, PYD thugs attacked
activists who were filming the protests with the explanation that only
employees of the PKK stations Roj-TV and 

Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Another "supposed damning fact" to add to Nick's list:  the claim that Salih 
Muslim called for the expulsion of Arabs, when on many occasions he said the 
exact opposite.

This false claim was included in Burning Country, which is on the whole a good 
account of the Syrian revolution, but which is biased against the PYD (probably 
because of misinformation supplied to the authors by political opponents of the 
PYD).

http://links.org.au/node/4679/

Chris Slee


From: Marxism  on behalf of Nick Fredman 
via Marxism 
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2018 7:53:16 AM
To: Chris Slee
Cc: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

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Michael has missed the point that my comment was about the actual subject
line of this thread: Juan Cole, who David Graeber shows is systematically
demonizing the PKK and PYD and systematically whitewashing the Turkish
state. I think the egregious and clearly conscious nature of Cole’s
distortions in this regard is very significant, much more than making a big
deal about a picture of what seems like a tiny number of people in Afrin
holding pictures of Assad.

More generally I’m all for an evidenced-based and critical view of the
DFNS, Syria and any other topic. That’s why, as well as paying attention to
the totality of the views and currents of the Apoist current and not just
convenient snippets, I’ve paid attention to independent writers who’ve
spent time in Rojava and interviewed numerous people there, such as Anna
Flach, Michael Knapp and Ercan Ayboga (the Revolution in Rojava book and
many articles), UK socialist feminist Rahila Gupta, and Dutch journalists
Wladimir Wildenberg and Frederike Geerdink, as well as David Graeber.

Such people haven’t been useful idiots but critical analysts: Gupta has
criticised the somewhat odd Apoist analysis of women’s oppression and blind
eye to questions of sexuality and Graeber has pointed out the likely
contradictions ahead of purposefully building a dual-power type political
structure.

It’s also why I’ve pointed out on this list and elsewhere that’s there’s
some dubious “critiques” of and supposed damning facts about the Rojava
revolution that some of the left have spread about in an uncritical
kneejerk fashion. Off the top of my head these include:

* The view that Rojava was handed over in a secret deal, rather than seized
in the popular uprising that’s been described by eyewitnesses (ironically
enough this bit of folk lore is repeated by Graeber in the article of the
subject line here);

* The assertion by Assad a few years ago that he’s armed the YPG/J, and has
the documents to prove it, they’re laying around somewhere...;

* Roy Gutman’s laughable “expose” articles (from Istanbul not Rojava), the
only two non-anonymous sources in which soon after criticising his
distortion of their views;

* The clearly doctored smudgy long-shot photos and brief video clips of YPG
and SAA flags flying together in Aleppo;

* And now, taking a pic of a tiny number of unknown people as representive
of the views of a movement, rather than the clearly stated views of that
movement.

So I’ll take Michael’s points and references on board but I won’t
uncritically accept the veracity of the claims made without checking them
or uncritically accept his interpretations.

On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 at 1:24 pm, mkaradjis .  wrote:

> Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state.
> Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013,
> repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the
> PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the
> very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems
> arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's
> own Arab nationalist background.
>
> PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared
> themselves neutral as early as mid-2011:
>
> “Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been
> fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic
> and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized
> that many 

Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[mkaradjis . via Marxism]

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Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state.
Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013,
repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the
PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the
very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems
arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's
own Arab nationalist background.

PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared
themselves neutral as early as mid-2011:

“Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been
fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic
and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized
that many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the
mosques and we thought that those were not good travel companions for
us.” http://kurdistantribune.com/2016/salih-muslim-time-has-proved-us-right/

Yes, thousands of Syrians were pouring out of mosques – one of the
only safe places – and going to protest for democracy against Assad
from the earliest days; it is immensely sectarian (in the political
sense) to see all these people as your enemies “a few months” into the
uprising, as if every worshipper protesting for democracy and freedom
is a crazed jihadist.

In an interview back in 2011, Salih Muslim (who was curiously allowed
back into Syria by Assad, following years of exile), also used
familiar Assadist tropes in defining the uprising as a western “regime
change” operation:

“As PYD, we believe that the international plan asking for a change in
Syria is not in favor of the peoples … In return for assuming the
leading role on Syria, Turkey received compromises by the West on
suppressing the Syrian Kurds. One of the major reasons of the regime
change project in Syria was to eliminate the Kurdish” (PYD Lideri
Salih Müslim ile Röportaj, “Suriye’de Kürtler yol haritası
çıkartıyor”, Firat News Agency, 12 September 2011, cited in
http://www.todayszaman.com/todays-think-tanks_syrias-pkk-game_271361.html).

Then there were the PYD attacks on Kurdish anti-Assad demonstrations,
beginning in Afrin in February 2012. I quoted from Burning Country on
this in a recent post. here is another report:

“On February 3, 2012, organized attacks by sympathizers of the
Democratic Union Party (PYD) injured at least 17 people in ʿAfrin.
Armed PYD supporters surrounded approximately three hundred supporters
of the Kurdish Patriotic Conference as they were gathering for a
dissident demonstration. The PYD demanded that the demonstrators walk
behind their flag. When the demonstrators refused and chanted “Azadî”
(“Freedom”), they were attacked with billy clubs, knives, chains, and
guns.
… Syrian security forces did not intervene. Numerous demonstrators
were brought to the hospital—however, some of them could not be
treated as the PYD also continued its attacks there.”
http://kurdwatch.org/en/interview8/html?aid=2449=en

According to the same report, five demonstrations took place the same
day in al-Qamishli. The regime arrested several people, but also
“during the demonstration in al-Antariyah, PYD thugs attacked
activists who were filming the protests with the explanation that only
employees of the PKK stations Roj-TV and Ronahi-TV were allowed to
make such recordings. Three activists suffered serious head injuries.”

The rest of 2012 is a literal catalogue of PYD attacks on Kurdish
anti-Assad demonstrations. Depending on the situation, the PYD
sometimes organised its own anti-Assad demonstrations, while at other
times it attempted to swap the anti-Assad slogans for demands that
Ocalan be released and the like.

Valid criticism is not "demonisation." Only blind romanticism leads to
demonisation, which is why so many Rojava romantics often start
spurning out the crudest Islamophobic nonsense about "head-choppers"
as soon as any rebels out side Rojava are mentioned. Perhaps time for
a more critical outlook.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism
 wrote:
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>
> Ok then we pretty much know for sure that at least 6 people in Afrin or
> about 0.001% of the current population held up placards of Assad, and that
> their reasons for doing so might have been influenced by what the former
> leader of the PYD 

Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/1/18 5:01 PM, Nick Fredman wrote:


Louis uses “Kurds” for these placard holders when he does not know their 
ethnicity, or, more to the point if we don’t want to ape lazy, ignorant 
journalists in the bourgeois media, their political affiliations or views.


Maybe that's because my views were shaped by PYD leader Salih Muslim 
calling the sarin gas attack in East Ghouta that cost the lives of more 
than a thousand people a "false flag". Any leader capable of making such 
a terrible statement is creating an atmosphere where it is entirely 
plausible that his followers would hold pictures of the killer of those 
people aloft.

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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The picture with the Assad portraits was disconcerting, but I don't think we 
should give it too much significance.

It happened when a pro-Assad militia unit arrived in Afrin to assist in the 
defence of the area against the Turkish invasion.  I think that cooperation 
against the invasion is legitimate.

But I recognise that there are dangers in this cooperation.  If Afrin (and 
Rojava more broadly) becomes dependent on the Assad regime for its defence, it 
could lead to downplaying the struggle for democracy in Syria.

But this is a reflection of the difficulty of making a revolution in a society 
under siege.

Chrs Slee


From: Louis Proyect 
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 12:08:49 AM
To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

On 3/1/18 4:11 AM, Chris Slee wrote:
> d the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria.
>
> My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very 
> difficult circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and 
> reactionary rebel groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the 
> DFNS.

But there is nothing in Greenleft about anybody like the 4 disappeared
activists. They still exist, after all.

It is nothing but the Rojava fan club 24/7. 280 articles, for pete's
sake. I wouldn't mind this so much if at least there was an attempt to
engage with the reality that Kurds are now holding up portraits of
Bashar al-Assad as if they were at a rally organized by Tim Anderson.

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/1/18 4:11 AM, Chris Slee wrote:

d the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria.

My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very difficult 
circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and reactionary rebel 
groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the DFNS.


But there is nothing in Greenleft about anybody like the 4 disappeared 
activists. They still exist, after all.


It is nothing but the Rojava fan club 24/7. 280 articles, for pete's 
sake. I wouldn't mind this so much if at least there was an attempt to 
engage with the reality that Kurds are now holding up portraits of 
Bashar al-Assad as if they were at a rally organized by Tim Anderson.

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect says:

"Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of
East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to
organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light."

Assad is not the sole problem for democracy activists in eastern Ghouta.  
Reactionary armed groups control the area, and violently repress those who 
challenge their rule.

Four prominent activists, Razan Zaitouneh, Wael Hamada, Nazem Hamadi and Samira 
Khalil,  were abducted by armed men in December 2013 in the town of Douma in 
the eastern Ghouta area.  They have not been seen since.  They are believed to 
have been murdered by the Army of Islam, the strongest militia in the area.

Yassin al-Haj Saleh refers to "the two-fold character of the battle imposed on 
Syrians: against the Assadist necktie fascists and against the Islamist 
long-bearded fascists."  (Quoted in Burning Country, page x)

I don't know if anyone in eastern Ghouta ever read Murray Bookchin's writings.  
But some residents of the area were certainly inspired by Omar Aziz, who 
advocated and worked for the formation of local councils.  Aziz died in one of 
Assad's prisons.

Walid Daou has written an article on "The experience of local councils in the 
Syrian revolution":

http://www.al-manshour.org/node/7415

While supportive of the councils, Daou points out their "shortcomings...at 
least in terms of application."

He says:

"Armed groups remained outside the supervision of local councils. At the same 
time, the Syrian National Council, the Syrian interim government, and the 
National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition forces monopolized 
the "high political rhetoric."

"Thus, the original idea behind the councils became meaningless. Under the 
hegemony of weapons and conditional funding, the space for council work closed 
up. Thus, the possibility of building an alternative, democratic authority from 
below, which could lead the revolution and speak in its name, was diminished."

Another problem was the limited participation of women.  According to Razan 
Ghazzawi:  "Women and youth have very little representation in the ranks of 
either the local councils or the Syria National Coalition".

https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/razan-ghazzawi/seeing-women-in-revolutionary-syria

This contrasts with the role of women in Rojava and the broader Democratic 
Federation of Northern Syria.

My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very difficult 
circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and reactionary rebel 
groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the DFNS.

Chris Slee



From: Louis Proyect 
Sent: Friday, 23 February 2018 11:37 AM
To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote:
>
>
> The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the 
> FSA" doing anything.  But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label 
> "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions.

Reference, please.


> We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially 
> progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc.

Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of
East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to
organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light.

>
> Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too.  See Amnesty 
> International report:
>
> https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/
Syria: Armed groups committing war crimes in Aleppo 
...
www.amnesty.org.au
Armed groups surrounding the Sheikh Maqsoud district of Aleppo have repeatedly 
carried out indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets.



>

Well, at least this Kurdish neighborhood had a non-aggression pact with
Assad at the time or else it would have been hell to pay. Fortunately
for the neighborhood, Russian and Syrian jets liquidated the jihadi
threat to Murray Bookchin's anarchist experiment.

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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On a Syria solidarity list I made the following comment:
"By the way, Graeber and Ocalan share a penchant for half-baked historical
schemas, which can't help but skew their overall outlook and practice."
I read a couple of Ocalan's books and was shocked at the amateurish nature
of his analysis (including his bowdlerization of Engels), as well as the
opportunistic proposal to negotiate with existing regimes, all justified
with his slippery autonomy/confederalism proposal, which evades the
question of state power.
If it hasn't already been done, someone should draft a critique of
Ocalanism as a theory.
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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/25/18 3:16 PM, Chris Slee wrote:

Louis Proyect says I have been "seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology".  I have 
never read anything by Bookchin.


Ocalan is widely recognized as being a disciple of Murray Bookchin, even 
from afar. Your review has a section on Democratic Confederalism, which 
Öcalan openly admits is based on Murray Bookchin's writings.


You really have to begin engaging with Bookchin's theories if you still 
claim to be a Marxist. Bookchin was a fierce opponent of Marxism his 
entire life. Read his 1969 "Listen, Marxist!" to get an idea of where he 
is coming from:


	All the old crap of the thirties is coming back again—the shit about 
the "class line," the "role of the working class," the "trained cadres," 
the "vanguard party," and the "proletarian dictatorship." It's all back 
again, and in a more vulgarized form than ever. The Progressive Labor 
Party is not the only example, it is merely the worst. One smells the 
same shit in various offshoots of SDS, and in the Marxist and Socialist 
clubs on campuses, not to speak of the Trotskyist groups, the 
International Socialist Clubs, and Youth Against War and Fascism.



That was us he was talking about, well at least me.


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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect says I have been "seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology".  I have 
never read anything by Bookchin.

I have read some of Abdullah Ocalan's writings - see my review:

http://links.org.au/understanding-abdullah-ocalan-political-thought-kurdistan-womans-revolution-democratic-confederalism/

But what impresses me is not so much his writings (of which I have some 
criticisms) as the movement inspired by his writings, which is fighting for 
women's rights, ethnic and religious equality, democracy etc.

Of course, it is impossible to build socialism in one country, and still less 
in part of a country, and still less when under siege and subject to an 
invasion.  The experiment may be crushed militarily or degenerate under 
pressure.

But meanwhile solidarity is essential.

Chris Slee

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/24/18 11:32 PM, Chris Slee wrote:

Louis Proyect asks for a reference for my statement that:  "Turkish-backed groups, 
some of which use the label 'FSA', have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions."

"Turkish-backed groups" include ISIS, which has obviously attacked Rojava.  But 
Louis is probably asking about FSA groups.

Several examples are given in the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael 
Knapp, Anja Flack and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press, 2016).

Their most detailed account of conflict between the YPG and a section of the 
Free Syrian Army relates to events in Aleppo.  While Aleppo is not part of 
Rojava, the Kurdish areas of Aleppo followed similar policies to those in 
Rojava.  The attacks on the predominantly Kurdish Aleppo neighborhoods of Sex 
Maqsud (Sheikh Maqsoud) and Asrafiye by some Turkish-backed FSA groups reflect 
their hostility towards the Rojava revolution.

"Revolution in Rojava" outlines the conflict as follows:

"Both belligerents - the regime on one hand, and the FSA and other armed 
opposition groups on the other - pressured the YPG to take sides.

"The FSA, flush with money from the Arab-Sunni Gulf states, began 
systematically buying up property in the Kurdish neighborhoodsFSA members took 
to carrying their weapons around outdoors - but the councils [local councils 
established in the Kurdish neighborhoods] took notice and demanded that they cease 
doing so.



I am not going to bother finding instances of Kurdish bad behavior 
toward Arabs since that is a zero-sum game.


At this point, the real question is what Rojava has to do with the tasks 
Marx outlined in the Communist Manifesto. You apparently have become 
seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology that has as much connection to 
proletarian revolution as Proudhon's.


Read the section "Socialist and Communist Literature" in the Communist 
Manifesto and remind yourself what Marx thought of Critical-Utopian 
Socialism and Communism.


Years ago I wrote a commentary on utopian socialism that dealt with 
Bookchin and his rivals at ZNet and elsewhere. I doubt if it will have 
much impact on someone as intoxicated with Bookchin's muddled ideas as 
you but others might find it worth reading:


http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/economics/neo_utopian.htm
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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect asks for a reference for my statement that:  "Turkish-backed 
groups, some of which use the label 'FSA', have attacked Rojava on numerous 
occasions."

"Turkish-backed groups" include ISIS, which has obviously attacked Rojava.  But 
Louis is probably asking about FSA groups.

Several examples are given in the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael 
Knapp, Anja Flack and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press, 2016).

Their most detailed account of conflict between the YPG and a section of the 
Free Syrian Army relates to events in Aleppo.  While Aleppo is not part of 
Rojava, the Kurdish areas of Aleppo followed similar policies to those in 
Rojava.  The attacks on the predominantly Kurdish Aleppo neighborhoods of Sex 
Maqsud (Sheikh Maqsoud) and Asrafiye by some Turkish-backed FSA groups reflect 
their hostility towards the Rojava revolution.

"Revolution in Rojava" outlines the conflict as follows:

"Both belligerents - the regime on one hand, and the FSA and other armed 
opposition groups on the other - pressured the YPG to take sides.

"The FSA, flush with money from the Arab-Sunni Gulf states, began 
systematically buying up property in the Kurdish neighborhoodsFSA members 
took to carrying their weapons around outdoors - but the councils [local 
councils established in the Kurdish neighborhoods] took notice and demanded 
that they cease doing so.

"The councils also demanded that the FSA pull out of Sex Maqsud [Sheikh 
Maqsoud] toward Asrafiye.  During Ramadan, on August 19 [2012], more than 3,000 
people demonstrated in support of this demand.  But the FSA didn't withdraw  - 
instead it fired at the residents from buildings.  The YPG fought back, and in 
the hours-long battle, 13 civilians and several FSA fighters were killed...

"But this and other battles drove the FSA out of Sex Maqsud and 
AsrafiyeOver the next months, the FSA kept shooting into the two 
neighborhoods, but now from a distance.

"Since the Kurds had not sided with the regime, the regime forces became 
increasingly brutal.  The army intervened militarily, then began attacking with 
helicopters and planes, each time taking several lives.

"The state shut down the electricityThere was a de facto food embargo

"The Kurds' neutrality angered both sides, the state and the FSA, which 
escalated their attacks

"In the summer and fall of 2013, the YPG defended Aleppo well, pushing back 
attacks by Islamic and other armed opposition groups, as well as parts of the 
FSAIn the spring of 2014, the YPG concluded a ceasefire with the FSA and 
other armed opposition groups.

"Since early 2015, the self-governed parts of Aleppo have repeatedly come under 
attack from jihadists.  The new coalition Jaish Al-Fatah, led by Al-Nusra (Al 
Qaeda) and heavily supported by Turkey, is continually trying to conquer the 
liberated parts of Aleppo, but the people of Sex Maqsud are maintaining their 
self-defence."  (Revolution in Rojava, p. 100- 102)

***

Here is a brief report on events in Serekaniye, a town on the Turkish border:

"In November 2012, about 3,000 heavily armed jihadists - Al-Nusra and parts of 
the FSA , like the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front (SILF) - slipped over the 
Turkish-Syrian border at Ceylanpinar and attacked Serekaniye.  The goal was to 
push on to Qamislo and bring down the self-government in Cizire.  After four 
days of fighting, they occupied Serekaniye.  The FSA touted the invasion as 
"the FSA's liberation of Ras Al-Ayn."  But the "liberation" took the form of 
massacres, devastation and the radical application of Sharia law 

"In June 2013...the YPG/YPJ liberated Serekaniye and expelled Al-Nusra and the 
FSA."  (Revolution in Rojava, p. 225)

Chris Slee


From: Louis Proyect 
Sent: Friday, 23 February 2018 11:37:38 AM
To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote:
>
>
> The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the 
> FSA" doing anything.  But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label 
> "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions.

Reference, please.


> We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially 
> progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc.

Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of
East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to
organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see 

Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote:



The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the FSA" doing 
anything.  But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label "FSA", have attacked 
Rojava on numerous occasions.


Reference, please.



We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially 
progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc.


Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of 
East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to 
organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light.




Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too.  See Amnesty 
International report:

https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/



Well, at least this Kurdish neighborhood had a non-aggression pact with 
Assad at the time or else it would have been hell to pay. Fortunately 
for the neighborhood, Russian and Syrian jets liquidated the jihadi 
threat to Murray Bookchin's anarchist experiment.

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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect quotes me:

> On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - 
> was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf 
> states.  Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, 
> including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment.

He comments: 

"I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think
that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave
them AK-47s?"

The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the FSA" 
doing anything.  But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label "FSA", 
have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions.

Louis says:

"You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday.
There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a
thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis
wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have
promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF?
Both sides?"

But in the very next sentence, Tony Iltis says:  "Assad would seem to be the 
most likely culprit. His forces are known to possess chemical weapons and the 
civilian casualties were in an opposition-held suburb."  

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-us-war-drive-halted-now

He explains his caution in drawing a definite conclusion as follows:

"It is very possible that Assad carried out the sarin attack on August 21. 
However, the public has not forgotten that the US and other Western governments 
and intelligence agencies faked evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons 
of mass destruction as a pretext for invasion in 2003. "

At that time such caution was understandable.  Today, following the Khan 
Sheikhoun attack, I personally have no doubt that the Assad regime did it.

Louis continues:

"But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX
ARTICLES."

We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially 
progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc.

Louis continues:

"And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you
once again used the plague on both your houses bullshit. The Socialist
Alliance issued a statement that included this: "The proliferation of
armed groups not subject to democratic civilian control has been a major
contributor to Syrians’ suffering." What does that mean? That Islamist
groups incited Syrian and Russian jets to bomb hospitals? I have heard
the same junk from Netanyahu after the IDF bombed Gaza."

Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too.  See Amnesty 
International report:

https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/


Chris Slee


From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2018 10:17:56 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case 
of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

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On 2/21/18 5:28 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
> On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - 
> was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf 
> states.  Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, 
> including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment.

I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think
that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave
them AK-47s?

You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday.
There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a
thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis
wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have
promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF?
Both sides?

But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX
ARTICLES.

And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you
once again used the plague on both your houses bullshit. The Socialist
Alliance issued a statement that included this: "The proliferation of
armed groups not 

Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/21/18 5:28 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - 
was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf 
states.  Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, including 
a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment.


I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think 
that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave 
them AK-47s?


You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday. 
There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a 
thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis 
wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have 
promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF? 
Both sides?


But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX 
ARTICLES.


And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you 
once again used the plague on both your houses bullshit. The Socialist 
Alliance issued a statement that included this: "The proliferation of 
armed groups not subject to democratic civilian control has been a major 
contributor to Syrians’ suffering." What does that mean? That Islamist 
groups incited Syrian and Russian jets to bomb hospitals? I have heard 
the same junk from Netanyahu after the IDF bombed Gaza.


I was happy you all dropped the Leninist nonsense. I only wish that you 
would also drop the kind of cheer-leading that is typical of sect 
formations.



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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect quotes David Graeber:

"While in the early days of the Syrian revolution, Arab communities too created 
directly democratic councils, many on a model inspired by a Syrian anarchist 
named Omar Aziz, the militarization of the conflict had very different effects; 
where in the Kurdish areas, the revolutionaries created their own militias, the 
Peoples Protection Forces (YPG) and the Women's Protection Forces (YPJ), most 
of the secular, left revolutionary organizations in the rest of Syria made a 
conscious decision not to join the armed struggle, leaving that to military 
defectors who made up the Free Syrian Army, then, increasingly, to Islamist 
militias armed and supplied by outside powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and 
Qatar."

Louis comments:

"What unmitigated bullshit.  The "secular, left revolutionary organizations" in 
the rest of Syria focused on providing social services to neighborhoods and 
entire cities under siege.  To help keep them from being annihilated, the FSA 
defended them as best they could.

"In fact, if it wasn't for the FSA, these Bookchinite experiments could never 
have happened since Assad was trying to buy time.  He allowed them to take 
place until his air force was finished exterminating East Aleppo, Homs, Ghouta, 
et al.  Now, he will do the same thing to the Kurds.  Divide and conquer..."

I will concede that Graeber's statement quoted above does not adequately 
recognise the difficult conditions facing democracy activists in areas under 
attack by Assad's forces.  Hence he gives the unfortunate impression of blaming 
the activists for the situation they find themselves in.  I don't think that 
was necessarily his intention, but it could be taken that way.

On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - 
was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf 
states.  Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, including 
a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment.

For a time, Rojava was less affected by war than some other parts of Syria.  
But this should not be exaggerated.  Rojava was subject to an economic 
blockade, armed attacks by Turkish-backed rebel groups, bombardments by the 
Turkish armed forces, and the threat of a full scale Turkish invasion.

In this context, Rojava (and later the broader Democratic Federation of 
Northern Syria) sought to avoid armed conflict with the Assad regime.  They did 
not want to simultaneously fight both the Turkish army (and its proxies) and 
the Assad regime (and its allies).

Chris Slee


From: Marxism  on behalf of Chris Slee via 
Marxism 
Sent: Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:58:05 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of 
Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

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http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/



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Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 2/20/18 6:58 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:



http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/




Graeber:

"While in the early days of the Syrian revolution, Arab communities too 
created directly democratic councils, many on a model inspired by a 
Syrian anarchist named Omar Aziz, the militarization of the conflict had 
very different effects; where in the Kurdish areas, the revolutionaries 
created their own militias, the People’s Protection Forces (YPG) and the 
Women’s Protection Forces (YPJ), most of the secular, left revolutionary 
organizations in the rest of Syria made a conscious decision not to join 
the armed struggle, leaving that to military defectors who made up the 
Free Syrian Army, then, increasingly, to Islamist militias armed and 
supplied by outside powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar."


What unmitigated bullshit. The "secular, left revolutionary 
organizations" in the rest of Syria focused on providing social services 
to neighborhoods and entire cities under siege. To help keep them from 
being annihilated, the FSA defended them as best they could.


In fact, if it wasn't for the FSA, these Bookchinite experiments could 
never had happened since Assad was trying to buy time. He allowed them 
to take place until his air force was finished exterminating East 
Aleppo, Homs, Ghouta, et al. Now, he will do the same thing to the 
Kurds. Divide and conquer...

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[Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/



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