Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * While Louis has certainly critiqued some, if not all, the Leftist on my list, I don't see his name anywhere on my blog post and he had no input into it. So Ron, why are you trying to pin this on him? Is this the old Joe McCarthy trick of indictment by association? So far as my list being another Joe McCarthy list. Quite the opposite. He made lists of people he accused of being communists. My list is a list of people I accuse of not being communists, even though many on it are self-avowed. As far as comparing any list made by a Linux admin who works at that craft 40/hrs a wk, [and is writing this opn his lunch break] to those holding state power in the most advanced imperialist country, I can only add to what Louis has already said: Can you be any more shallow? Frankly, I thing you are just peeved that I didn't include you on the list, but if this list was inclusive [sadly], I would still be listing names next week. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 4:04 PM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Due to his prior career in reporting I am unwilling to believe that he simply transformed from one of the world's top investigative reporters into some kind of mouthpiece for the Assad government. See also http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2014/04/my-lai-and-sy-hersh-reappraisal.html Hersh was publicizing a Pentagon press release. I think they wanted My Lai exposed as cover for the hundreds of others. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Clay. I don't see the point in continuing this. I regret my choice of phrasing. On May 5, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Clay Claiborne clayc...@gmail.com wrote: While Louis has certainly critiqued some, if not all, the Leftist on my list, I don't see his name anywhere on my blog post and he had no input into it. So Ron, why are you trying to pin this on him? Is this the old Joe McCarthy trick of indictment by association? So far as my list being another Joe McCarthy list. Quite the opposite. He made lists of people he accused of being communists. My list is a list of people I accuse of not being communists, even though many on it are self-avowed. As far as comparing any list made by a Linux admin who works at that craft 40/hrs a wk, [and is writing this opn his lunch break] to those holding state power in the most advanced imperialist country, I can only add to what Louis has already said: Can you be any more shallow? Frankly, I thing you are just peeved that I didn't include you on the list, but if this list was inclusive [sadly], I would still be listing names next week. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Great, now I'm an Assad apologist too. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The article that Clay wrote appears to suggest states in no uncertain terms that anyone who second-guessed US government [ and Free Syria Army, HRW, UN, etc ] reports that the Syrian regime committed the Ghouta [sarin - notice how this apologist only recognizes the one!] attack, and never commented on Assad mass murder with conventional rockets and artillery in Ghouta, before or since the only Ghouta attack A.R. G recognizes - and remained silent even as he started dropping barrel-bombs filled with chlorine, is a regime apologist, and that is apparently definitely Amy Goodman's crime. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Note Louis, your thesis on Hresh is like mine but I think that is exactly the role in play vis My Lia. http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2014/04/my-lai-and-sy-hersh-reappraisal.html Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * My basic problem boils down to this, in the case of this satin attack the Left acted like attorneys for Assad when they should have acted like prosecutors for the people. A crime against humanity was committed. The task of the prosecutor should be to represent the people and prosecute whoever is responsible. Even it they initially prosecute the wrong party, they have the moral responsibility to find and prosecute the true criminals. The task of the defense attorney is very different. It is solely to get their client off. They may investigate to find other suspects, but only to raise questions and get their client, guilty or innocent, off. Once that is done nobody expects them to investigate further and find the real culprit because that's not their job. That's how the Left approached the murder of 1400 people, they acted like the devil's advocates. On May 5, 2015 7:47 PM, Clay Claiborne clayc...@gmail.com wrote: Note Louis, your thesis on Hresh is like mine but I think that is exactly the role in play vis My Lia. http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2014/04/my-lai-and-sy-hersh-reappraisal.html Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Did you read http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-lefts-crime-against-humanity.html ? I think I made a very good case that DN is Assad loving scum. See also http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2015/04/crisis-in-yarmouk-how-amy-backs-assads.html Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:26 PM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: I don't know what Louis has to do with it but I thought Clay's post was very superficial. Many of the alleged Syrian regime apologists are just rando leftists who weren't sure what to make of the Ghouta attack as it was happening. To suggest that DN! is some kind of Assad apologist outfit is bizarre. - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 5/4/15 1:16 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: Is this Clay and Louis' version of Joe McCarthy's list? What in the world could you possibly be talking about? McCarthyism was a form of state terror in which Communists lost their jobs and occasionally their lives. As far as I can tell, there are exactly two people on the American left that blog in favor of the overthrow of Bashar al-Assad, me and Clay. Plus, Michael Karadjis in Australia. That's about it. As opposed to us, there is a steady diet of pro-Assad articles in Counterpunch, DissidentVoice and other leftist websites that are too numerous to enumerate. This mailing list is also one of the few places where you can see news items that run counter to the pro-Assad blogosphere. If you think that this amounts to McCarthyism, I really don't know what to say. Put it this way, Ron. If you can squeal about what Clay writes (or me), then you probably have a pretty thin skin. Given the hegemonic support on the left for the axis of resistance, you should be able to shrug off a tiny sliver of contrary opinion. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Actually, Louis. I'm used to you and Clay doing your thing. My skin is plenty thick. Given your often over-the-top responses to those who disagree with your take on events makes me wonder about your epidermis, though. On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 5/4/15 1:16 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: Is this Clay and Louis' version of Joe McCarthy's list? What in the world could you possibly be talking about? McCarthyism was a form of state terror in which Communists lost their jobs and occasionally their lives. As far as I can tell, there are exactly two people on the American left that blog in favor of the overthrow of Bashar al-Assad, me and Clay. Plus, Michael Karadjis in Australia. That's about it. As opposed to us, there is a steady diet of pro-Assad articles in Counterpunch, DissidentVoice and other leftist websites that are too numerous to enumerate. This mailing list is also one of the few places where you can see news items that run counter to the pro-Assad blogosphere. If you think that this amounts to McCarthyism, I really don't know what to say. Put it this way, Ron. If you can squeal about what Clay writes (or me), then you probably have a pretty thin skin. Given the hegemonic support on the left for the axis of resistance, you should be able to shrug off a tiny sliver of contrary opinion. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 16:31 04-05-15 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: The article that Clay wrote appears to suggest that anyone who second-guessed US government reports that the Syrian regime committed the Ghouta attack is a regime apologist What is important isn't identifying this or that individual of being a regime apologist, whether intentionally, unconsciously, or inadvertently. The problem is that this is the discourse that permeates the left, and that becomes reflected in the views of leftists who hear the same sort of talk from almost everyone they speak with, and then go on to repeat that same bullshit themselves. I can only imagine it is not unlike the millions of sincere communists during the 1930's who hated Trotsky because he was without a doubt a counter-revolutionary agent working for the fascists, as everyone knows. But among those who are more equipped to investigate questions of fact independently and still wind up repeating these lies, I have less sympathy. And I think that's what irks Clay the most: opinion-makers who lack integrity. Where all the circumstantial evidence (as well as most subsequently obtained evidence) indicates that the residents of East Ghoutta (a liberated zone) were gassed by the regime and not by themselves, the only reason someone would not only explore but write about the most unlikely (and implausible) possibilities is if they feel extremely uncomfortable with what they realize is almost certainly true. So this no longer has to do with journalism, but advocacy, and then coming up with factual scenarios -- no matter how far-fetched! -- in which the guilty party is let off the hook. There isn't any other explanation for the race to such conclusions other than the prejudices of the purported fact-finders. During the Vietnam war I don't remember anyone questioning whether the US military poisoned the Vietnamese with agent-orange rather than the other way around (which would have explained the many thousands of American troops who were also affected). When arch-bishop Romero and the church women were murdered in El Salvador, I don't remember anyone on the left going out of their way to investigate whether that had actually been the work of the FMLN in order to gain sympathy. Well sure, anything is possible, but if you're doing honest journalism you don't just write in detail about every unlikely possibility. Unless you're actually doing propaganda, and the obvious possibility is too painful to acknowledge. That's when you have to clutch at any straw, and then, in the cases of the journalists we're discussing, use your well-earned reputation to put a cover on what you should (and probably do) know has nothing to do with the truth. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * During the Vietnam war I don't remember anyone questioning whether the US military poisoned the Vietnamese with agent-orange rather than the other way around (which would have explained the many thousands of American troops who were also affected). When arch-bishop Romero and the church women were murdered in El Salvador, I don't remember anyone on the left going out of their way to investigate whether that had actually been the work of the FMLN in order to gain sympathy. Well sure, anything is possible, but if you're doing honest journalism you don't just write in detail about every unlikely possibility. No, but there were plenty on the left that second guessed crimes when they were committed by countries associated or allegedly associated with the Soviet Union, and for good reason -- the media exaggerated the fuck out of them while downplaying US atrocities, many on the left reversed this bias. - Amith On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Jeff via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 16:31 04-05-15 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: The article that Clay wrote appears to suggest that anyone who second-guessed US government reports that the Syrian regime committed the Ghouta attack is a regime apologist What is important isn't identifying this or that individual of being a regime apologist, whether intentionally, unconsciously, or inadvertently. The problem is that this is the discourse that permeates the left, and that becomes reflected in the views of leftists who hear the same sort of talk from almost everyone they speak with, and then go on to repeat that same bullshit themselves. I can only imagine it is not unlike the millions of sincere communists during the 1930's who hated Trotsky because he was without a doubt a counter-revolutionary agent working for the fascists, as everyone knows. But among those who are more equipped to investigate questions of fact independently and still wind up repeating these lies, I have less sympathy. And I think that's what irks Clay the most: opinion-makers who lack integrity. Where all the circumstantial evidence (as well as most subsequently obtained evidence) indicates that the residents of East Ghoutta (a liberated zone) were gassed by the regime and not by themselves, the only reason someone would not only explore but write about the most unlikely (and implausible) possibilities is if they feel extremely uncomfortable with what they realize is almost certainly true. So this no longer has to do with journalism, but advocacy, and then coming up with factual scenarios -- no matter how far-fetched! -- in which the guilty party is let off the hook. There isn't any other explanation for the race to such conclusions other than the prejudices of the purported fact-finders. During the Vietnam war I don't remember anyone questioning whether the US military poisoned the Vietnamese with agent-orange rather than the other way around (which would have explained the many thousands of American troops who were also affected). When arch-bishop Romero and the church women were murdered in El Salvador, I don't remember anyone on the left going out of their way to investigate whether that had actually been the work of the FMLN in order to gain sympathy. Well sure, anything is possible, but if you're doing honest journalism you don't just write in detail about every unlikely possibility. Unless you're actually doing propaganda, and the obvious possibility is too painful to acknowledge. That's when you have to clutch at any straw, and then, in the cases of the journalists we're discussing, use your well-earned reputation to put a cover on what you should (and probably do) know has nothing to do with the truth. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Personally, I think debating the substance of such a strange accusation against someone like Amy Goodman is bizarre. Obviously anyone can level any accusation against anyone and then demand a response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elRxbGJuCw8 The article that Clay wrote appears to suggest that anyone who second-guessed US government reports that the Syrian regime committed the Ghouta attack is a regime apologist, and that is apparently Amy Goodman's crime. Since that attack took place, individuals who have independently established their longtime credibility on issues of reporting war and peace, independent of Syria, have questioned that narrative, Seymour Hersh being the most prominent. Others have pointed out very serious flaws in Hersh's argument, in particular that he relied on secret government sources that may very well have preferred having the US government continue to work closely with the Syrian regime in the name of counter-terrorism. I don't think there is anything wrong with someone like Amy Goodman reporting on a diversity of perspectives on the left about an unfolding tragedy, when it is not clear, especially at the time of reporting, who was doing what. To say that such questioning makes her an Assad mouthpiece is little more than a smear. It also means we are not allowed to question the stated position of a sitting US president who was fronting as though he was ready to advocate for regime change, even if that was not in fact the Administration's actual intention. This is, to put it lightly, a touchy subject. We should be able to disagree on it without being labelled neocon interventionists or regime apologists. - Amith On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 5/4/15 1:49 PM, Ron Jacobs wrote: Actually, Louis. I'm used to you and Clay doing your thing. My skin is plenty thick. Given your often over-the-top responses to those who disagree with your take on events makes me wonder about your epidermis, though. Well, look. Clay wrote an attack on Democracy Now. If you wanted to defend Amy Goodman, you could have written a substantive reply. Instead you just referred to McCarthyism on Marxmail. The floor is still open for you to defend Amy Goodman. I rarely check out Democracy Now but would welcome a debate on the ISSUES. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I assume you are referring to this article: http://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/dangerous-method-syria-sy-hersh-art-mass-crime-revisionism It appears to be based primarily on the argument I brought up, namely that Hersh relies almost entirely on a single unnamed source, and that this is problematic. Without pretending to know all the details re: the arsenals of the regime or the resistance, I think it is a valid criticism. However, I do not think it necessarily makes Amy Goodman -- or, for that matter, Hersh -- regime apologists. I think so especially in Goodman's case. The fact that she reported on the existence of ambiguity does not mean she is a propagandist. In Hersh' case, I think maybe he made some errors in judgment from a journalism perspective (although I again do not pretend to know the ins and outs re: the available arsenals of either side, which might be considered quite obscure knowledge). Due to his prior career in reporting I am unwilling to believe that he simply transformed from one of the world's top investigative reporters into some kind of mouthpiece for the Assad government. To give an example of what I am saying about ambiguity and obscurity, consider this passage in the Idrees Ahmad article: The pugilists, Theodore Postol and Richard Lloyd, are munitions experts. They have produced valuable analyses on the payloads and ranges of the rockets used on August 21. There is little reason to doubt their expertise in this area. But there is much to question in their political analyses and speculations. To wit: Postol and Lloyd claim that given the heavy payload, the range of the rockets might have been as low as two kilometers, and therefore they could not have originated from the “heart” of regime-controlled areas, as the Obama administration alleged. But the Obama administration also overestimated the distance to regime positions. Using trajectory analysis it has been possible to calculate their likely launch coordinates, which, even with the two kilometer range, places them in zones where regime forces were active on August 21. Furthermore, Postol initially claimed the rocket used in the attack “fails to match the specifications of a similar but smaller rocket known to be in the Syrian arsenal.” He claimed — a claim that Hersh echoed — that the rocket could be produced in a modestly equipped machine shop.[ii] But video and photographic evidence prove that the rockets *exactly* match the specifications of two known types in the regime’s arsenal — the Volcano and the Soviet 140mm M14. They are not, as Postol and Lloyd insist, “improvised.” How anyone without a serious military background could weigh into such a debate -- let alone decisively -- eludes me. We are not hearing about resistance and democracy and Arab spring, we are hearing about heavy payload, range of rockets, and the specifications of two known types in the regime's arsenal. When you also consider that many of the leftists in question have just seen a neighboring country be destroyed based on all sorts of obscure technical rhetoric about WMD's that turned out to be completely fabricated, one doesn't need to guess why people on the left are highly suspicious about a topic in which they have limited expertise. That does not mean that Ahmad (or Louis or Clay) are wrong. It just means that maybe there is more to why some of these people are mistaken than being regime apologists. - Amith On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 5/4/15 4:31 PM, A.R. G wrote: Since that attack took place, individuals who have independently established their longtime credibility on issues of reporting war and peace, independent of Syria, have questioned that narrative, Seymour Hersh being the most prominent. What do you make of Idrees Ahmad's critique? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
