Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 18, 2010, at 11:35 AM, S. Artesian wrote: > > No, I'm saying what I was saying-- that to argue that the TP > movement exists > or exerts an attraction because there is no strong left movement in > the US > is incorrect. I am not arguing that it exists because there is a > strong > movement. But why agree that such a "movement" exists? There seems to be no more "reality" in it than in any other "reality show" on FOX and its consoeurs, and it was FOX that invented the traveling clown show known as the TP. The TP serves three purposes (apart from the comic relief)--it gratifies Murdoch's ego as well as his finances, it makes the corporate hack serving as president look (relatively) less like a puppet, and it gives the Liberal Idiocracy something to get its knickers in a twist over while they go on supporting the Ubu-lite scam in Washington. Shane Mage The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed. Joe Stack (1956-2010) Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 11:26 AM, brad bauerly wrote: > Greg- I can not begin to unravel what that guy was posting on FB. The > only thing I can say is that he makes a reference to his business, > which probably means he is bourgeois or PB. So fuck him. My point exactly. And why pretend? He's PB. Which raises the point re. class composition of the Teabaggers. If many or even most are white people in precarious middle class economic situations, you can bet any amount of money they will be dragged kicking and screaming in protest of becoming working class. And they will lash out at the most absurd scapegoats imaginable, rather than challenging the overall system. This is because their class position has made them individualistic and greedy, with predilections toward racist diatribes. There you have it--the three poisons of Buddhism all in one: greed, hatred, and delusion. I posted the Chomsky vid in deference to Mark and his talk it out strategy. I think it is useful for helping to rescue a few folks here and there from the clutches of nativism and fascism, but most people's irrational emotions tend to override clear thinking, especially when they are already prone to being in denial in the first place. Greg Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == No, I'm saying what I was saying-- that to argue that the TP movement exists or exerts an attraction because there is no strong left movement in the US is incorrect. I am not arguing that it exists because there is a strong movement. I am stating to make such an argument "no strong left, ergo tea party" is to provide an ideological excuse rather than a concrete analysis. The TP movement exists because it is bankrolled by the bourgeoisie, or a sector of the bourgeoisie, that want it to exist not because the left is weak I am using the analogy of the "fascists would really be sympathetic to communism, if only we were a better organized, stronger movement" to point out the absurdity of that view. There is, after all, a convergence of history and logic. We call that convergence dialectic. - Original Message - From: "brad bauerly" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 4/18/10, brad bauerly wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > S. Artesian wrote: >>I do not agree that many people sympathize with the TP because there is no >>left alternative. That's a myth. That's an ideological analysis, not a >>material analysis. It's like saying lots of people sympathize with the >>fascists because there isn't a communist alternative, when exactly the >>reverse is the case... lots of people sympathize with the fascists >> precisely >>because there is a "communist alternative." > -- > Are you really saying that people sympathize with the TP because there > is a strong left in the US? That's assbackwards. Jeffery is correct > up to a point. We shouldn't attempt to win over TPers, but we should > build a left that can offer an alternative to their nonsense to stop > further workers moving in the TP direction. > > Brad > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/vickiwhite%40speakeasy.net > > -- Sent from my mobile device Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Greg- I can not begin to unravel what that guy was posting on FB. The only thing I can say is that he makes a reference to his business, which probably means he is bourgeois or PB. So fuck him. Let's pretend though that he was a worker. Should we deny him his exploited position in society because he is clearly a xenophobic racist as Mark Lause would suggest. Or should we see him as a misguided worker who doesn't have a clear understanding of capitalism, which would mean we need to talk about class more, not race or immigration, so that workers like him can begin to see things in class terms and not blame other workers for capitals problems. I am not saying that it is easy, but it is necessary (and hardly liberal). Brad Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == S. Artesian wrote: >I do not agree that many people sympathize with the TP because there is no >left alternative. That's a myth. That's an ideological analysis, not a >material analysis. It's like saying lots of people sympathize with the >fascists because there isn't a communist alternative, when exactly the >reverse is the case... lots of people sympathize with the fascists precisely >because there is a "communist alternative." -- Are you really saying that people sympathize with the TP because there is a strong left in the US? That's assbackwards. Jeffery is correct up to a point. We shouldn't attempt to win over TPers, but we should build a left that can offer an alternative to their nonsense to stop further workers moving in the TP direction. Brad Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark wrote: >Actually, in saying this, brad is himself climbing on board with the >current fad among the Democrats...which is precisely what brad's >arguing here. I heard Arianna Huffington whinging on about this just >the other day on MSNBC. -- O.K. Mark time to back up some of this shit with some sources. Where exactly did Huffington say that by focusing on just the Racism we miss the real class issues of the TP? Also you said this is a current fad among Dems so can you give us some other sources where you heard this argument by Dems? Finally, can you show me where I switched positions and started 'climbing on board' this idea, instead of it being what I have been stating all along? Mark again: >As to brad's call for a class analysis, Marxism sees class in terms of >self-consciousness not objective sociological categories. In calling >for a "good class based analyses" that "cuts right through ideology," >brad is suggesting something crudely sociological...and quite >acceptably liberal. ML -- What 'Marxism' sees class as determined by self-consciousness not material terms? And how is calling for class analysis liberal? Brad Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My last post of the day...Number 5, I think Ditto to S. Artesian and Chris. You have to build a movement to draw people to the Left. That's your best shot at ever getting people who aren't now remotely sympathetic to the Left. And the active teapartybaggers who actually go to things are just that Saying that we're not willing to build a movement unless we want to spend quality time with people not remotely sympathetic to the Left is just sophistry. Worse, it makes me think I'm trying to explain to kids about the light in the refrigerator. Oh, here's an article on the local event, where Joe the Plumber called for shooting immigrants.. http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/kellys_corner/joe-the-plumber-wants-illegal-immigrants-shot-91051469.html After attending this event, several very enthusiastic students stopped by to share their insights. They repeated everything said there. As always, we talked through the issues, and I seemed to make some progress with them. However, as has been the case in the past, the minute someone they actually respect--someone the media tells them to respect--calls again for shooting immigrants, it'll be as though we have never had those discussions. Build a movement of progressive people around progressive values...a movement of people who respect themselves and are learning to respect their own judgments and it will be contagious. That is, people will learn to trust their own judgments and ideas rather than to cheer low-grade morons such as Joe the Plunger. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == We don't agree on that. We agree with what Chris proposed, which places the TP way down the list of priorities, and requiring different tactics rather than a "fraternal" embrace. I do not agree that many people sympathize with the TP because there is no left alternative. That's a myth. That's an ideological analysis, not a material analysis. It's like saying lots of people sympathize with the fascists because there isn't a communist alternative, when exactly the reverse is the case... lots of people sympathize with the fascists precisely because there is a "communist alternative." - Original Message - From: "Jeffrey Thomas Piercy" To: "David Schanoes" Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 04/17/2010 01:11 PM, S. Artesian wrote: > the movement as a social movement should not be viewed as an opportunity to > "win" angry people over to the left. But if we agree that many people sympathize with the Tea Party because there's no Left alternative, because the Tea Parties are the only game in town for those fed up with the US government... Then isn't winning these people over exactly what we want to do? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I can agree with CH also. The point ML was making was not to avoid talking to individuals who express some vague sympathy or agreement with some of the abstractions the the TP flogs as advertising, but that the TP supporters, the movement as a social movement should not be viewed as an opportunity to "win" angry people over to the left. Big difference. All the difference. - Original Message - From: "brad bauerly" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == brad bauerly wrote: > > I also don't know if we should be on board with the > Democrats in labeling this whole movement racist and only racist > driven. There are real issues of class that are getting brushed over > by both the TP and the Democrats, which is where marxist are supposed > to offer a little bit of analysis that goes deeper than the ideology. > At its best, good class based analyses cuts right through ideology. > Actually, in saying this, brad is himself climbing on board with the current fad among the Democrats...which is precisely what brad's arguing here. I heard Arianna Huffington whinging on about this just the other day on MSNBC. As to brad's call for a class analysis, Marxism sees class in terms of self-consciousness not objective sociological categories. In calling for a "good class based analyses" that "cuts right through ideology," brad is suggesting something crudely sociological...and quite acceptably liberal. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:10 PM, brad bauerly wrote: > I do think we need to understand the source of the TP in material > terms though and then see the ideological layer on top of it, not the > other way round. I also don't know if we should be on board with the > Democrats in labeling this whole movement racist and only racist > driven. There are real issues of class that are getting brushed over > by both the TP and the Democrats, which is where marxist are supposed > to offer a little bit of analysis that goes deeper than the ideology. > At its best, good class based analyses cuts right through ideology. I > also fear the impact on those elements that were becoming > disillusioned with the Dems by Obama being pushed back into the Dems > arms. The last point you make is certainly a good one, but the relationship between economic crisis, class mobility, and racism is hardly difficult to unravel. You have middle class people losing their former economic status and scapegoating people of color. As usual. Let me provide you with an example, this from a guy who wrote into my FB page: "legalizing them (immigrants) would annihilate the remaining US economy far into the next two generations. And one lovely Honduran illegal immigrant gang has punched me in my face where I work, and promised a stabbing if I continue to operate my business in the face of competing with the 28 members of their clan, all illegal aliens. Fuck them, they are violent barbarians. They have no respect for anyone or anything. Goodwill industries had to hire off duty police to ban them for life for threatening other customers with box cutter knives. They have been terrorizing the entire Pacific NW thrift store circuit for years now." Care to unravel that? When he speaks of annihilation, he's obviously thinking of his own potential economic and perhaps physical annihilation. Greg Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hutch wrote: >The real question is if there are elements of the working class in the >tea party why should our movement reach out to the most backward >layers who are openly racist, homophobic, etc. I prefer to organize >with immigrant workers who represent the future vanguard of the >working class or the youth on college campuses who are becoming >increasingly disillusioned after being politicized around the Obama >election. We should be reaching out to these folks and once the >movement is big and vibrant the tea party people who are workers will >either join with us or will remain reactionary. Those who would remain >in the tea party won't matter to us anyway. There is no shortcut to >building a movement. But certainly our movement will not grow in a >healthy direction if we put out the welcome mat to racist elements. >In solidarity, >Hutch --- I can agree with this. I never said that we should reach out to the TP. But I do think there is a lot of potential in the formerly middle income group (not the TPers already) going into the future. They have been baring a large portion of the impact of the crisis and are potentially open to the claims of the TP. I hope I didn't come across as an apologist for racism either, that was not my intention. If I did, I am sorry and I was wrong. I do think we need to understand the source of the TP in material terms though and then see the ideological layer on top of it, not the other way round. I also don't know if we should be on board with the Democrats in labeling this whole movement racist and only racist driven. There are real issues of class that are getting brushed over by both the TP and the Democrats, which is where marxist are supposed to offer a little bit of analysis that goes deeper than the ideology. At its best, good class based analyses cuts right through ideology. I also fear the impact on those elements that were becoming disillusioned with the Dems by Obama being pushed back into the Dems arms. Brad Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The real question is if there are elements of the working class in the tea party why should our movement reach out to the most backward layers who are openly racist, homophobic, etc. I prefer to organize with immigrant workers who represent the future vanguard of the working class or the youth on college campuses who are becoming increasingly disillusioned after being politicized around the Obama election. We should be reaching out to these folks and once the movement is big and vibrant the tea party people who are workers will either join with us or will remain reactionary. Those who would remain in the tea party won't matter to us anyway. There is no shortcut to building a movement. But certainly our movement will not grow in a healthy direction if we put out the welcome mat to racist elements. In solidarity, Hutch Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't know if anybody posted this piece on the tea partyers yet: "White Nationalism on the March." http://blackagendareport.com/?q=content/white-nationalism-march The phenomena is a bit more complex than this Black Agenda Report presents it, but aren't all phenomena more complex than can fit easily into a short article? They've hit the nail pretty much on the head, and I do look forward to hearing that those "Marxists" who have a bone to pick over this straightening these folks out ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == You're assuming these are workers. I make no such assumption. The actions I'm talking about include using racial epithets against John Lewis, a man who suffered beatings, death threats, arrest for refusing to accept the poverty and discrimination imposed on African-Americans. That makes the participants in that demonstration racists. This "movement" is animated, sustained by its racism... by the "take back our country" theme, taking it back because an African-American was elected president. That's what that means. If you can't read that coded language, then you need to do a bit more research. As for "judging" people, Greg answered that. I don't have to make up these judgements. These people advertise their racism. Regarding "ideology" and "class," in the auto unions in Detroit various right-wing organizations, including the KKK, had supporters. Those KKK supporters were angry people too, angry about the wrong things, but angry, as were the supporters of George Wallace. That's white petit-bourgeois anger... that's the anger of white workers who, with greater seniority due to racism want to maintain their lock on higher paying positions. That's the anger of those people who moved out of Detroit and into Dearborn, Mich. where, in the rebellion of 1967, the mayor had the police cruising the border streets in APC's. How many of these angry people who object to "big capital" and banks came out to support the workers at Republic Window when they took over their factory and wanted Bank of America to extend the credit lines to the company? How many of these angry people expressed their anger at Wall Street by supporting the Stella D'Oro workers in NYC? Not a fucking one. So don't tell me how angry, but confused, these people are. They may be angry, but they know which side they're on. It's the side they show up for. It's the side opposite ours. - Original Message - From: "brad bauerly" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark wrote: >Gee, brad, didn't you already know the material basis of their anger. No, I have no idea. Since we can't learn anything from polls, according to you, how are we to understand what the majority of them are so pissed about? S.Artesian wrote: >You didn't answer the questions. Have you ever been at a meeting where these >goons show up? Have you seen the videotape of them spitting at and >slandering the former leader of SNCC? -- Yes and Yes. I also have some old friends and relatives who were Ron Paul supporters and now TPers. They are not racists, nor petty bourgeois (since we are going to get all anecdotal with our analysis). They are confused but not fascists. Not sure if I personally would draw concrete conclusions from limited examples. S. Artesian wrote: > The fact that I think their ACTIONS define their politics rather than some > vague notion of "understanding them in material terms" says it all. >"The material source of their anger"? You want to know what that is, what >that material source is, besides the money being funnelled to them by the >people who always funnel money to these clowns? The material source is that >an African-American actually, by some fluke, got elected president. Whose actions are you talking about? Do you like it when people draw conclusions about your politics based on the CPUSA or some other sectarian group? I don't. I don't judge large numbers of people based on the actions of others. Racism and racialisation is an ideology. You are making an ideological judgement, not a materialist one. Dismissing workers for their bourgeois serving ideology. Huh. Sounds like a solid marxist material analysis. Brad Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Anatomy of Teabagging
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The observations are interesting, but the essence of the approach confounds the tea partiers as an activist force in the streets with what people are saying to the pollster. It's not the anatomy of a sheep, so to speak, but that of a picture of someone who once thought they saw a sheep ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
