Re: [MBZ] Boeing HQ move
That is always a problem. Next step is the MBAs take over and sell off all the assets to pocket the money. I will stick with the 737-767 series whenever possible. In my estimation the 777 is still better than an airbus product. Companies are always best when production and engineering are strong voices. ( and when marketing and design actually LISTEN to what the customers want ...ok, I am a few years behind. That was a dumb move. Like when enron moved out of Omaha and lost their minds. Or when Gateway moved the execs out of South Dakota, and melted down.. Exactly so. Much criticism of the move. I'm told the company is run by the bean counters now, not the Engineers and the main consideration is the bottom line, thus the 787 fiasco. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
I guess my gf's dad was FOS, not that such a conclusion would be a surprise. --R WILTON wrote: I flew several 24-hour airborne alert (Chrome Dome) missions over the North pole in B-52s; never heard anything about a B-52 being shot at by anybody up in that area. Quite a different story, though, for B-47s. An RB-47 on a reconnaissance mission/probe along the Northern border of the USSR about 1958 to 1960 was shot down by a Soviet fighter aircraft; 3 or 4 crewmen were killed (the RBs carried a manned intelligence-gathering pod in what would have been the bombay in the bomber models); pilot (Capt McCone) and the co-pilot, I think, were captured, tried and held for several months. Possibly, a coupla other such incidents involving B-47s, but none involving B-52s that I ever heard about, was briefed on, etc. We never got close enough to Soviet border (even over the pole) on Chrome Domes to be concerned about such. We B-52s did, however, dodge plenty of SAMS (Surface to Air Missiles) at 37 kft over Hanoi in Dec 1972 with solid layer of anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) below us at 29 kft. Of 750 B-52 sorties during Linebacker II (18-29 Dec), we lost 15 to SAMs, and several others were damaged. Wilton - Original Message - From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing I had a gf whose dad was a B52 navigator, he mentioned one time that occasionally planes would come back from their north pole expeditions with holes shot in their tails. Grabbed the rooshan's tails a little too hard one supposed. --R WILTON wrote: BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [MBZ] Boeing 737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Boeing Field in Seattle. Right on the property. I used to stay at the Holiday Inn while on business there. If my memory serves me correctly, they were open late on Thursdays, and I would always make it a point to go over and wander aimlessly around the place until closing. Dan --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:28 PM What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
My point exactly The museum is in Seattle, at Boeing field What is the location? Boeing Field in Seattle tell us what is the red barn? The place where Boeing started What is the name of the airport adjacent? Boeing Field What company's history is prominently featured? Boeing RLE apparently either can't answer these questions, or chose not to dazzle us with his knowledge. Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing The fact that the proper name is the Museum of Flight is merely a technicality It IS a Boeing museum, and it is a good one. I also highly recommend the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensecola It could be called the Grumman museum Boeing Field in Seattle. Right on the property. I used to stay at the Holiday Inn while on business there. If my memory serves me correctly, they were open late on Thursdays, and I would always make it a point to go over and wander aimlessly around the place until closing. Dan --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:28 PM What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
South Marginal way red barn is the original workshop from the Duwamish Boeing Field clay On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Dieselhead wrote: What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Boeing, now (or soon to be) in Charleston building 787s. (They actually have a factory here now for fuselage segments, which they fly to Seattle in a largerized 747 to be mated with other segments) --R Dieselhead wrote: My point exactly The museum is in Seattle, at Boeing field What is the location? Boeing Field in Seattle tell us what is the red barn? The place where Boeing started What is the name of the airport adjacent? Boeing Field What company's history is prominently featured? Boeing RLE apparently either can't answer these questions, or chose not to dazzle us with his knowledge. Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing The fact that the proper name is the Museum of Flight is merely a technicality It IS a Boeing museum, and it is a good one. I also highly recommend the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensecola It could be called the Grumman museum Boeing Field in Seattle. Right on the property. I used to stay at the Holiday Inn while on business there. If my memory serves me correctly, they were open late on Thursdays, and I would always make it a point to go over and wander aimlessly around the place until closing. Dan --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:28 PM What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
The folks in Charleston got the 787 because our governor is a complete moron and the democrats here wanted to suck the cash cow dry then gut the goose that lays golden eggs. No desire at all to secure the future of the workers, just support for the unions. Seems the unions decided the state had screwed them in the 787 deal, so have pulled support for candidates. You will have to pay them to support you instead of having the unions fund your campaign clay On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: Boeing, now (or soon to be) in Charleston building 787s. (They actually have a factory here now for fuselage segments, which they fly to Seattle in a largerized 747 to be mated with other segments) --R Dieselhead wrote: My point exactly The museum is in Seattle, at Boeing field What is the location? Boeing Field in Seattle tell us what is the red barn? The place where Boeing started What is the name of the airport adjacent? Boeing Field What company's history is prominently featured? Boeing RLE apparently either can't answer these questions, or chose not to dazzle us with his knowledge. Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing The fact that the proper name is the Museum of Flight is merely a technicality It IS a Boeing museum, and it is a good one. I also highly recommend the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensecola It could be called the Grumman museum Boeing Field in Seattle. Right on the property. I used to stay at the Holiday Inn while on business there. If my memory serves me correctly, they were open late on Thursdays, and I would always make it a point to go over and wander aimlessly around the place until closing. Dan --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:28 PM What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
If the unions implement that policy nationwide, it could have an effect. It will have an effect locally. Would be interesting to see what happens. Doesn't Boeing still have a facility in Wichita? It was started to build planes for WWII, and the last I knew, it was airframe subassemblies. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing trivia
More Dieselhead: Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing. .Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing I think I've heard otherwise in re: who built this particular airplane. What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing... Not anymore. Boeing moved it's official headquarters to Chicago a few years back. This was prior to the 787 debacle. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing trivia
ok, I am a few years behind. That was a dumb move. Like when enron moved out of Omaha and lost their minds. Or when Gateway moved the execs out of South Dakota, and melted down More Dieselhead: Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing. .Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing I think I've heard otherwise in re: who built this particular airplane. I figured you would pick that nit. That is why I asked who designed and oversaw production. Parts of planes were built all over, and there were several assembly plants, often run by competitors during WWII What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing... Not anymore. Boeing moved it's official headquarters to Chicago a few years back. This was prior to the 787 debacle. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing HQ move
...ok, I am a few years behind. That was a dumb move. Like when enron moved out of Omaha and lost their minds. Or when Gateway moved the execs out of South Dakota, and melted down.. Exactly so. Much criticism of the move. I'm told the company is run by the bean counters now, not the Engineers and the main consideration is the bottom line, thus the 787 fiasco. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Boeing
737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [MBZ] Boeing 737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
I'm trying to think, I don't remember my 240D ever stranding me anywhere. There were 2 occasions I declined to take it (once when the alternator bearings went and another time the radiator came apart) but I don't remember it ever stranding me. Both my wagon and 190D stranded me, the 190D even stranded Angie once. Both times the 190D failed were failed wheel bearings. I'd told my Indy to replace the ones that stranded Angie, he forgot... The 240D tried to strand me tonight but I made 'er. Its either a little low on coolant or the thermostat is getting sticky. Temp sender could be flaky too but I don't think so. I'll check it out tomorrow. -Curt Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:40:24 -0500 From: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 37b8b3178cb04ba29075f10e74e0f...@wiltonpc Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
I had a gf whose dad was a B52 navigator, he mentioned one time that occasionally planes would come back from their north pole expeditions with holes shot in their tails. Grabbed the rooshan's tails a little too hard one supposed. --R WILTON wrote: BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [MBZ] Boeing 737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
I flew several 24-hour airborne alert (Chrome Dome) missions over the North pole in B-52s; never heard anything about a B-52 being shot at by anybody up in that area. Quite a different story, though, for B-47s. An RB-47 on a reconnaissance mission/probe along the Northern border of the USSR about 1958 to 1960 was shot down by a Soviet fighter aircraft; 3 or 4 crewmen were killed (the RBs carried a manned intelligence-gathering pod in what would have been the bombay in the bomber models); pilot (Capt McCone) and the co-pilot, I think, were captured, tried and held for several months. Possibly, a coupla other such incidents involving B-47s, but none involving B-52s that I ever heard about, was briefed on, etc. We never got close enough to Soviet border (even over the pole) on Chrome Domes to be concerned about such. We B-52s did, however, dodge plenty of SAMS (Surface to Air Missiles) at 37 kft over Hanoi in Dec 1972 with solid layer of anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) below us at 29 kft. Of 750 B-52 sorties during Linebacker II (18-29 Dec), we lost 15 to SAMs, and several others were damaged. Wilton - Original Message - From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing I had a gf whose dad was a B52 navigator, he mentioned one time that occasionally planes would come back from their north pole expeditions with holes shot in their tails. Grabbed the rooshan's tails a little too hard one supposed. --R WILTON wrote: BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [MBZ] Boeing 737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
The RB-47 was shot down July 1, 1960; Captains McCone and Olmstead were released Jan 25, 1961. Wilton - Original Message - From: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing I flew several 24-hour airborne alert (Chrome Dome) missions over the North pole in B-52s; never heard anything about a B-52 being shot at by anybody up in that area. Quite a different story, though, for B-47s. An RB-47 on a reconnaissance mission/probe along the Northern border of the USSR about 1958 to 1960 was shot down by a Soviet fighter aircraft; 3 or 4 crewmen were killed (the RBs carried a manned intelligence-gathering pod in what would have been the bombay in the bomber models); pilot (Capt McCone) and the co-pilot, I think, were captured, tried and held for several months. Possibly, a coupla other such incidents involving B-47s, but none involving B-52s that I ever heard about, was briefed on, etc. We never got close enough to Soviet border (even over the pole) on Chrome Domes to be concerned about such. We B-52s did, however, dodge plenty of SAMS (Surface to Air Missiles) at 37 kft over Hanoi in Dec 1972 with solid layer of anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) below us at 29 kft. Of 750 B-52 sorties during Linebacker II (18-29 Dec), we lost 15 to SAMs, and several others were damaged. Wilton - Original Message - From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing I had a gf whose dad was a B52 navigator, he mentioned one time that occasionally planes would come back from their north pole expeditions with holes shot in their tails. Grabbed the rooshan's tails a little too hard one supposed. --R WILTON wrote: BTW, Boeings always brought me safely home, even after getting shot at profusely and doing a bunch of stuff for me that the designers didn't originally intend for them to do; 3 different MBs have dropped me on the side of the road. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [MBZ] Boeing 737 is a real workhorse too. Are they still in production? It has to be about the longest production run of passenger aircraft Thanks, and a special thanks to Boeing; the B-52s, designed by Boeing engineers in the 50s, still have much of that resilience. Plans are to continue using the Hs, built in 61,62, another 30 to 40 years. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Worth reading If more people understood this history, then I would not get questioned about why I prefer to be in a Boeing aircraft when I have to fly on an airline. The B-17 is a phenomenal aircraft. It used to be when I get to fly.. but the nutcases, the gummit and the airlines have taken all the fun out. All those who designed the B-17 and even the next generation of engineers are all gone or retired. But I know a few folks who work there, and some of the expertise lives on. We all owe a great debt to those veterans, and to the ones prior and after. As our resident USAF retiree, I say three cheers for WIlton! Can't remember if this has been seen before or not, so http://398th.org/History/Articles/Remembrances/Ostrom_FortressHome.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Notice all the Union jobs are protected. More job banks, only now under a different name, still getting paid for doing nothing. At 09:35 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Loren, Nice theory. And I don't understand the issue with the job bank anyway, the program was developed for the company's benefit. As designed, a certain staff level was retained in the job bank as a short term buffer and this work force was applied to short term jobs in the company as needed. Years ago, my wife was in the Chrysler job bank and they rarely sat idle - they worked all over the Huntsville facility. Eliminating the job bank was more of a political move than a sound business decision. Without the job bank, the factories have to over staff a small percentage across all departments to cover shortfalls left by Employees on vacation medical leave. Sure, some in the job bank sat idle, but the cost is more without the job bank because the company no longer has the luxury of a smaller, floating work force that can be used where needed. A lot of these decisions are being made to appease Congress, a group of elected officials who don't have a clue about how to run a large corporation. But I don't expect you to understand this - your comments, including this one, have all been anti-union regardless of logic. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Loren Faeth Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:14 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing Notice all the Union jobs are protected. More job banks, only now under a different name, still getting paid for doing nothing. At 09:35 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1944 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 5:44 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1944 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 5:44 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
..Those who live in the Seattle area don't realize the national media doesn't not cover news from Boeing... I think you don't realize what portion of the total balance of payments is due to Boeing sales to foreign carriers, therefore making new products very much national news. RLE ** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090210/32304022/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. At 09:12 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: ..Those who live in the Seattle area don't realize the national media doesn't not cover news from Boeing... I think you don't realize what portion of the total balance of payments is due to Boeing sales to foreign carriers, therefore making new products very much national news. RLE ** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090210/32304022/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Not a problem, those 10,000 can go to the bank and borrow a million each to gamble on the stock market. However if you are a viable business needing to borrow money for cash flow purposes, don't bother. So what is the chosen one doing to pull the banks into line? Hendrik Allan Streib wrote: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Salaried staff not union workers. How many union workers getting the heave ho (without a cushion)? --R Allan Streib wrote: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090210/2d5aaa52/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Boeing
Many, depending on the industry and conditions. Not too many years ago thousands of union ATT workers were laid off from the manufacturing plants in NC without a cushion, unless you want to call the survival check the state pays you a cushion. In 1989, the local GTE plant shut down and many union workers were laid off. I was part of that one and I received no cushion. The real downside is that once you work for a union shop, no-one else in manufacturing will hire you because they are afraid of you and the ideas you will bring into the shop. So, not only is there no cushion, there may also be no work available that the laid off worker is qualified for. Quite a few of the people my Wife worked with in Huntsville discovered this the hard way. They took a Chrysler buyout a number of years ago and assumed they would find work in the $10 - $12 range - the going rate in the area for very qualified electronics workers. Most have not found work - 2 of her friends are working at the local Wal-Mart and hate it. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:18 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing Salaried staff not union workers. How many union workers getting the heave ho (without a cushion)? --R Allan Streib wrote: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com writes: I do understand that, but the national media doesn't and doesn't care. all they care about is what the latest starlet does and what the democrat party does. So we get brittany spears latest whatever and mesiah worship, and that is supposed to be news. Meanwhile GM plans to lay off 10,000 under their stimulus plan restructuring. Allan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090210/2d 5aaa52/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1942 - Release Date: 2/9/2009 5:40 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1942 - Release Date: 2/9/2009 5:40 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
