Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Clay via Mercedes]

Berkshire Hathaway.. that shirt company… owns a vast amount of rail in the 
west.  No idea what it holds east of the Mississippy

clay 

I have no pronouns please do not refer to me.



> On Jul 2, 2021, at 8:02 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Freight rail is heavily used in the USA, more than most of the rest of the 
> world. Freight railroads own most of the track which is why passenger service 
> is a second class citizen except in the northeast where Amtrak owns some 
> routes.

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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Very true!
Also remember that all electrical use does not occur at the same time.
Typically cooling/heating demand is highest during the day and most EVs
will be charged at night - actually evening out the load somewhat.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 1:06 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I mean, a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel has made quite a trip to make
> it into my vehicle. It's amazing that it can be as inexpensive as it is ...
> Curt
>
-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I mean, a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel has made quite a trip to make it 
into my vehicle. It's amazing that it can be as inexpensive as it is ...
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 1:58 PM, Jim Cathey via 
Mercedes wrote:   > EV proponents argue that EVs are 
much more efficient and...

While EV's may be, the _grid_ as a whole is something abysmal like 50% 
efficient.
That 'use-anywhere' convenience comes at quite an overall cost.  When you stack
up all the inefficiencies, each original erg is marked down substantially 
before it
actually pushes your ass to the nearest Starbucks...

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> EV proponents argue that EVs are much more efficient and...

While EV's may be, the _grid_ as a whole is something abysmal like 50% 
efficient.
That 'use-anywhere' convenience comes at quite an overall cost.  When you stack
up all the inefficiencies, each original erg is marked down substantially 
before it
actually pushes your ass to the nearest Starbucks...

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I agree. Our electrical production and transmission "pipes" are sized with an 
upper limit on load that did not contemplate needing to support the energy 
equivalent of all the motor vehicle fuel consumed every day. EV proponents 
argue that EVs are much more efficient and while that may be true we're still 
talking about adding a massive amount of load to a grid that was never designed 
with that in mind. We'll need more power generation and more transmission 
capacity throughout the system. The only generation technologies currently 
feasible are coal or nuclear fission, and each is its own political football. 
This will be expensive and take a long time.

Allan

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021, at 7:39 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> One of the things I’ve heard of late and agree with is that the 
> infrastructure to support charging at a scale that some are attempting to 
> envision just doesn’t exist and probably never will.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:47 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars are 
> > electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer electronic/electrical 
> > devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?  Seems to me, when that kind 
> > of demand hits, the solar and wind farms will be woefully unable to 
> > adequate;'fill the need?
> > 
> > tia,
> > Larry
> > 06 S350..
> > 
> > On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> >> No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly and 
> >> shut everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the collapse 
> >> of the rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough money, 
> >> in spite of being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.  Corporate 
> >> stupidity.  Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought everyone 
> >> else on the East Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail until the 
> >> Feds stepped in, and killed the passenger service.  We got the grossly 
> >> underfunded AmTrack instead.
> >> 
> >> The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated like 
> >> the highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and the 
> >> rails being owned and operated by the Federal government (like highways).  
> >> Rail companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the 1980s, 
> >> directly subsidizing their competition.
> >> 
> >> To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century 
> >> Limited from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and 
> >> maintained by something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned 
> >> less the 20 miles of track and had not owned equipment since the early 
> >> teens.
> >> 
> >> Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of 
> >> the Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were 
> >> going from New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by 
> >> private companies for whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, 
> >> and in those days everything in the West (since it was almost all cattle 
> >> being shipped for export) went to Chicago.  Once the local companies 
> >> serving smaller cities dropped passenger service you have to take one of 
> >> the big lines (if they still had service) and they all ran through 
> >> Chicago.  Take a look at the railroad maps sometime if you don't believe 
> >> me.
> >> 
> >> If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit my 
> >> niece and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years longer 
> >> than we could in a car.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[OK Don via Mercedes]

It also points out the folly of massive centralized systems. When one plant
goes down, too many are left without power (which most of us depend on for
daily life). We need efficient local (in my backyard) power generation
systems - decentralized power (thorium reactors, anyone?). You can then
produce the power you need, when you need it. Combine solar, wind, whatever
with the fossil fuel of your choice.
Efficiency is the key - the current home generators burn too much fuel for
the power they produce. There
There's an opportunity here for someone smart enough to figure it out.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 10:00 AM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Billions of government support dollars have been thrown at solar, wind, and
> other alternate energy systems. Those government free money dollars
> produced more solar farms, wind farms, and programs to build more. However,
> each system to date has a fatal flaw. That flaw being, the wind doesn't
> always blow the same speed, the sun doesn't always shine at night or in ice
> storms, and the energy produced has no way to be stored to be used "on
> demand" after it is produced... There are no huge city sized batteries to
> plug your Prius into.
> Add to that, the transmission systems for power are old, and tired, and
> have not been updated or maintained. At current capacity, they are
> routinely at or near overloaded.
> Vulnerable, is the word that comes to mind. So, if you really want an
> "electric only utopia" start building the support structure that will
> support it. Or, learn to like fossil fuels.
> I know, reality bites...
>
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 4:40 AM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > One of the things I’ve heard of late and agree with is that the
> > infrastructure to support charging at a scale that some are attempting to
> > envision just doesn’t exist and probably never will.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:47 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars
> > are electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer
> electronic/electrical
> > devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?  Seems to me, when that kind
> > of demand hits, the solar and wind farms will be woefully unable to
> > adequate;'fill the need?
> > >
> > > tia,
> > > Larry
> > > 06 S350..
> > >
> > > On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly
> > and shut everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the
> > collapse of the rail beds and operations because they weren't making
> enough
> > money, in spite of being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.
> > Corporate stupidity.  Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought
> > everyone else on the East Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail
> > until the Feds stepped in, and killed the passenger service.  We got the
> > grossly underfunded AmTrack instead.
> > >>
> > >> The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated
> > like the highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and
> > the rails being owned and operated by the Federal government (like
> > highways).  Rail companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the
> > 1980s, directly subsidizing their competition.
> > >>
> > >> To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century
> > Limited from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and
> maintained
> > by something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20
> > miles of track and had not owned equipment since the early teens.
> > >>
> > >> Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west
> of
> > the Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were
> > going from New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by
> private
> > companies for whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in
> > those days everything in the West (since it was almost all cattle being
> > shipped for export) went to Chicago.  Once the local companies serving
> > smaller cities dropped passenger service you have to take one of the big
> > lines (if they still had service) and they all ran through Chicago.
> Take a
> > look at the railroad maps sometime if you don't believe me.
> > >>
> > >> If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit
> > my niece and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years
> > longer than we could in a car.
> > >> ___
> > >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >>
> > >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >>
> > >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus 

Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Billions of government support dollars have been thrown at solar, wind, and
other alternate energy systems. Those government free money dollars
produced more solar farms, wind farms, and programs to build more. However,
each system to date has a fatal flaw. That flaw being, the wind doesn't
always blow the same speed, the sun doesn't always shine at night or in ice
storms, and the energy produced has no way to be stored to be used "on
demand" after it is produced... There are no huge city sized batteries to
plug your Prius into.
Add to that, the transmission systems for power are old, and tired, and
have not been updated or maintained. At current capacity, they are
routinely at or near overloaded.
Vulnerable, is the word that comes to mind. So, if you really want an
"electric only utopia" start building the support structure that will
support it. Or, learn to like fossil fuels.
I know, reality bites...

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 4:40 AM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> One of the things I’ve heard of late and agree with is that the
> infrastructure to support charging at a scale that some are attempting to
> envision just doesn’t exist and probably never will.
>
> -D
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:47 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars
> are electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer electronic/electrical
> devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?  Seems to me, when that kind
> of demand hits, the solar and wind farms will be woefully unable to
> adequate;'fill the need?
> >
> > tia,
> > Larry
> > 06 S350..
> >
> > On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> >> No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly
> and shut everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the
> collapse of the rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough
> money, in spite of being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.
> Corporate stupidity.  Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought
> everyone else on the East Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail
> until the Feds stepped in, and killed the passenger service.  We got the
> grossly underfunded AmTrack instead.
> >>
> >> The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated
> like the highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and
> the rails being owned and operated by the Federal government (like
> highways).  Rail companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the
> 1980s, directly subsidizing their competition.
> >>
> >> To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century
> Limited from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and maintained
> by something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20
> miles of track and had not owned equipment since the early teens.
> >>
> >> Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of
> the Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were
> going from New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by private
> companies for whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in
> those days everything in the West (since it was almost all cattle being
> shipped for export) went to Chicago.  Once the local companies serving
> smaller cities dropped passenger service you have to take one of the big
> lines (if they still had service) and they all ran through Chicago.  Take a
> look at the railroad maps sometime if you don't believe me.
> >>
> >> If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit
> my niece and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years
> longer than we could in a car.
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

One of the things I’ve heard of late and agree with is that the infrastructure 
to support charging at a scale that some are attempting to envision just 
doesn’t exist and probably never will.

-D


> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:47 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars are 
> electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer electronic/electrical 
> devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?  Seems to me, when that kind of 
> demand hits, the solar and wind farms will be woefully unable to 
> adequate;'fill the need?
> 
> tia,
> Larry
> 06 S350..
> 
> On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
>> No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly and 
>> shut everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the collapse 
>> of the rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough money, in 
>> spite of being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.  Corporate 
>> stupidity.  Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought everyone else 
>> on the East Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail until the Feds 
>> stepped in, and killed the passenger service.  We got the grossly 
>> underfunded AmTrack instead.
>> 
>> The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated like 
>> the highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and the 
>> rails being owned and operated by the Federal government (like highways).  
>> Rail companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the 1980s, directly 
>> subsidizing their competition.
>> 
>> To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century 
>> Limited from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and maintained 
>> by something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20 
>> miles of track and had not owned equipment since the early teens.
>> 
>> Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of the 
>> Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were going 
>> from New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by private 
>> companies for whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in 
>> those days everything in the West (since it was almost all cattle being 
>> shipped for export) went to Chicago.  Once the local companies serving 
>> smaller cities dropped passenger service you have to take one of the big 
>> lines (if they still had service) and they all ran through Chicago.  Take a 
>> look at the railroad maps sometime if you don't believe me.
>> 
>> If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit my 
>> niece and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years longer 
>> than we could in a car.
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Bulk freight, not parcel freight, and never scheduled.  We still move way to 
much stuff by truck.
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Freight rail is heavily used in the USA, more than most of the rest of the 
world. Freight railroads own most of the track which is why passenger service 
is a second class citizen except in the northeast where Amtrak owns some routes.

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
> > Naturally, GM bought it and shut is down
> 
> I heard the same type of thing happened with freight by rail years ago too. 
> Again, at the behest of GM. Not sure if that's the truth, or folklore.
> 
> 
> Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Back in the day (say the 30s-40s) cities were THE desirable places to live
and work.  Cities had restaurants, entertainment, transportation, and
amenities, like power, water, and sewage.   Now the cities have crime,
homelessness, high costs, filth, and incredible taxes.  In the meantime,
rural areas got electricity., internet, nearby big-box stores, and Amazon.
Things have changed.  I presume my 45 acres of trees sequester a bit of CO2.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Peter Frederick via Mercedes
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 7:48 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Peter Frederick 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

Having been in Europe long enough, I'd much rather take the train on a trip.


Back before the suburban craze, every city had good transportation systems,
LA was superb.  Naturally, GM bought it and shut is down
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[G Mann via Mercedes]

It is a law of nature that two things represent the extreme ends of any
spectrum.
Government on one end, and Reality and Logic on the other.
A bridge built of borrowed money to be paid back with taxes will never be
able to connect the two ends.

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars
> are electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer
> electronic/electrical devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?
> Seems to me, when that kind of demand hits, the solar and wind farms
> will be woefully unable to adequate;'fill the need?
>
> tia,
> Larry
> 06 S350..
>
> On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> > No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly
> and shut everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the
> collapse of the rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough
> money, in spite of being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.
> Corporate stupidity.  Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought
> everyone else on the East Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail
> until the Feds stepped in, and killed the passenger service.  We got the
> grossly underfunded AmTrack instead.
> >
> > The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated
> like the highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and
> the rails being owned and operated by the Federal government (like
> highways).  Rail companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the
> 1980s, directly subsidizing their competition.
> >
> > To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century
> Limited from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and maintained
> by something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20
> miles of track and had not owned equipment since the early teens.
> >
> > Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of
> the Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were
> going from New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by private
> companies for whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in
> those days everything in the West (since it was almost all cattle being
> shipped for export) went to Chicago.  Once the local companies serving
> smaller cities dropped passenger service you have to take one of the big
> lines (if they still had service) and they all ran through Chicago.  Take a
> look at the railroad maps sometime if you don't believe me.
> >
> > If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit my
> niece and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years longer
> than we could in a car.
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Clay via Mercedes]

Eric the Car Guy does not feel the electric cars will save the world.  EV is a 
religion not a solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cC18ZntMrg 



Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 2:24 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> The primary justification for electric vehicles is reducing CO2, which they
> don't when you look at the entire cycle of building and operating one. I
> didn't see that in his summary, and admit that I didn't read the complete
> transcript.

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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

Am I being too simplistic to wonder what will happen when all the cars 
are electric (green wet dream) and all other consumer 
electronic/electrical devices depend on plug in 110v for charging?  
Seems to me, when that kind of demand hits, the solar and wind farms 
will be woefully unable to adequate;'fill the need?


tia,
Larry
06 S350..

On 7/2/2021 8:07 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:

No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly and shut 
everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the collapse of the 
rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough money, in spite of 
being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.  Corporate stupidity.  
Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought everyone else on the East 
Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail until the Feds stepped in, and 
killed the passenger service.  We got the grossly underfunded AmTrack instead.

The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated like the 
highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and the rails 
being owned and operated by the Federal government (like highways).  Rail 
companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the 1980s, directly 
subsidizing their competition.

To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century Limited 
from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and maintained by 
something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20 miles of 
track and had not owned equipment since the early teens.

Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of the 
Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were going from 
New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by private companies for 
whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in those days everything 
in the West (since it was almost all cattle being shipped for export) went to 
Chicago.  Once the local companies serving smaller cities dropped passenger 
service you have to take one of the big lines (if they still had service) and 
they all ran through Chicago.  Take a look at the railroad maps sometime if you 
don't believe me.

If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit my niece 
and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years longer than we 
could in a car.
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

No, the freight rail issue was the railroads trying to get a monopoly and shut 
everyone else down.  Huge shipping rate wars resulted in the collapse of the 
rail beds and operations because they weren't making enough money, in spite of 
being able to legally cooperate on setting rates.  Corporate stupidity.  
Bankrupted the New York Central after they bought everyone else on the East 
Coast, leaving the nation with NO freight rail until the Feds stepped in, and 
killed the passenger service.  We got the grossly underfunded AmTrack instead.

The rail system should have been nationalized during WWi and operated like the 
highway system, with the rail companies operating the trains and the rails 
being owned and operated by the Federal government (like highways).  Rail 
companies paid highway fuel tax on diesel fuel into the 1980s, directly 
subsidizing their competition.

To give you an idea of how crazy the rail system is, the 20th Century Limited 
from New York to Chicago passed over the rails owned and maintained by 
something like 175 railroad companies, some of which owned less the 20 miles of 
track and had not owned equipment since the early teens. 

Shear lunacy.  This includes the fact that for many years going west of the 
Mississippi River required going through Chicago, even if you were going from 
New Orleans to Alberquerque.  All the rails were laid by private companies for 
whatever they were doing in the mid to late 1800s, and in those days everything 
in the West (since it was almost all cattle being shipped for export) went to 
Chicago.  Once the local companies serving smaller cities dropped passenger 
service you have to take one of the big lines (if they still had service) and 
they all ran through Chicago.  Take a look at the railroad maps sometime if you 
don't believe me.

If I could take a train from Evansville to St. Louis I'd get to visit my niece 
and nephew a lot more, and could have take my Mom some years longer than we 
could in a car.
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Electric just pushes the carbon use off to another place.

For most.  In WA, a significant majority of electricity is generated without 
carbon as
a 'working fluid'.  There are other 'green' (-ish) states, such as Vermont.

See: 
https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

> Naturally, GM bought it and shut is down

I heard the same type of thing happened with freight by rail years ago too. 
Again, at the behest of GM. Not sure if that's the truth, or folklore.


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Having been in Europe long enough, I'd much rather take the train on a trip.  

Back before the suburban craze, every city had good transportation systems, LA 
was superb.  Naturally, GM bought it and shut is down
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>since we won't be paying huge amounts of money for the "freedom" of driving 
>ten miles to the grocery and 50 miles to work every day

Or the "freedom" of taking a driving vacation. Or the "freedom" to visit your 
kids away at college. Or the "freedom" of visiting dying parents several 
hundred miles away.

This "freedom" stuff is overrated anyway.


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

As I have said for decades, the actual solution to using carbon fuels is to 
quit driving and doing things like mowing huge lawns.  Electric just pushes the 
carbon use off to another place.  

The correct solution, as I see it, to too many cars burning fossil fuels is to 
re-build our cities to we can take the nice electric tram.  Best "electric" 
vehicle on the road (or rails), and if we can walk to work and school, we will 
be healthier, skinnier, and richer since we won't be paying huge amounts of 
money for the "freedom" of driving ten miles to the grocery and 50 miles to 
work every day
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[OK Don via Mercedes]

The primary justification for electric vehicles is reducing CO2, which they
don't when you look at the entire cycle of building and operating one. I
didn't see that in his summary, and admit that I didn't read the complete
transcript.

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 2:59 PM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make poor
> people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
> electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades to
> the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
> incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:39 PM Meade Dillon  wrote:
>
> > Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the subject
> > of electric vehicles.
> >
> >
> >
> https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf
> >
> > Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy, and
> I
> > encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
> > summarized by him:
> >
> > * I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
> > should “electrify everything” including transportation.
> >
> > * EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
> > failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
> > electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In 1990,
> the
> > California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be zero-emission
> > vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
> > California have an electric plug.
> >
> > * The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
> > roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits force
> > low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer crowd.
> >
> > * Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for grid
> > upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own one.
> >
> > * This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
> > need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
> > ratepayers: about $13 billion.
> >
> > * Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
> > prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices went
> up
> > by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This,
> in a
> > state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
> > America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
> > regressive policies?
> >
> > * I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is the
> > opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of
> our
> > energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target
> for
> > terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
> > reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural disaster,
> > equipment failure, or human error.”
> >
> > I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing work
> > done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying
> half
> > of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:
> >
> > * 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
> > * 4 times global neodymium output
> > * 3 times global lithium production
> > * 2 times world copper production
> >
> > I concluded by saying:
> >
> > Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
> > density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines and
> > hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
> > Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on electrification
> > schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans, reduce
> > our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious
> trifecta.
> >
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Here in the midwest I am seeing more EVs than I used to, but they're still rare 
enough that you notice them. Bear in mind I live in a very left-leaning 
university town. There are also a lot of wealthy foreign students that buy 
exotic cars to use while they are in school. Maseratis, Ferraris, McLarens, and 
tricked-out AMGs are about as common here as Teslas. Get out past the campus 
bubble and you don't see any of those kinds of cars.

Allan

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 5:25 PM, Clay via Mercedes wrote:
> No middle or poor people in GWN have electron power car.  SEA has a goodly 
> market, but the only folks with median or below income who own said car are 
> UBER drivers running former municipal LEAF or Priuapus that just squeak under 
> the age limits.  On the other side of the fence are the uber rich with plug 
> ins and solar panel arrays in their million dollar hovels.  My realtor has 
> his and hers Model S in the garage with PV on his roof.
> 
> Clay
> 
> All politicians are about as useless as a tampon on a trans.
> Katie Hopkins  -2021
> 
> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make poor
> > people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
> > electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades to
> > the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
> > incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Yeah, another point, brought up the late Dr. Marshall Booth, is the road /
fuel taxes.  He argued this for the "grease kit" fad, that people brewing
their own fuel were avoiding the fuel tax at the pump, which pays for
roads.

Some states are trying to address that with increased registration fees for
electric cars, but I'd like to see an apples to apples comparison, of all
the state taxes collected at the pump, vs. the delta between the
registration fees for electric vs. fossil fuel vehicles.  If 6% of the
vehicles in CA are EV, then are they collecting 6% of the road fuel tax
equivalent?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 5:13 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> It's like "free college" plans. What will happen is the working class
> taxpayers who don't go to college will end up footing the bill for the
> white collar people who do, and who will earn more money and end up being
> their bosses.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:
> > Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make
> poor
> > people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
> > electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades
> to
> > the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
> > incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:39 PM Meade Dillon 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the
> subject
> > > of electric vehicles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf
> > >
> > > Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy,
> and I
> > > encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
> > > summarized by him:
> > >
> > > * I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
> > > should “electrify everything” including transportation.
> > >
> > > * EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
> > > failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
> > > electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In
> 1990, the
> > > California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be
> zero-emission
> > > vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
> > > California have an electric plug.
> > >
> > > * The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
> > > roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits
> force
> > > low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer
> crowd.
> > >
> > > * Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for
> grid
> > > upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own
> one.
> > >
> > > * This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
> > > need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
> > > ratepayers: about $13 billion.
> > >
> > > * Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
> > > prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices
> went up
> > > by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This,
> in a
> > > state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
> > > America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
> > > regressive policies?
> > >
> > > * I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is
> the
> > > opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of
> our
> > > energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target
> for
> > > terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
> > > reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural
> disaster,
> > > equipment failure, or human error.”
> > >
> > > I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing
> work
> > > done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying
> half
> > > of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:
> > >
> > > * 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
> > > * 4 times global neodymium output
> > > * 3 times global lithium production
> > > * 2 times world copper production
> > >
> > > I concluded by saying:
> > >
> > > Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
> > > density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines
> and
> > > hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
> > > Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on
> electrification
> > > schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans,
> reduce
> > > our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious
> trifecta.
> > >
> > > -
> > > Max

Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Clay via Mercedes]

No middle or poor people in GWN have electron power car.  SEA has a goodly 
market, but the only folks with median or below income who own said car are 
UBER drivers running former municipal LEAF or Priuapus that just squeak under 
the age limits.  On the other side of the fence are the uber rich with plug ins 
and solar panel arrays in their million dollar hovels.  My realtor has his and 
hers Model S in the garage with PV on his roof.

Clay

All politicians are about as useless as a tampon on a trans.
Katie Hopkins  -2021

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make poor
> people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
> electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades to
> the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
> incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

It's like "free college" plans. What will happen is the working class taxpayers 
who don't go to college will end up footing the bill for the white collar 
people who do, and who will earn more money and end up being their bosses.


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:
> Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make poor
> people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
> electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades to
> the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
> incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:39 PM Meade Dillon  wrote:
> 
> > Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the subject
> > of electric vehicles.
> >
> >
> > https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf
> >
> > Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy, and I
> > encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
> > summarized by him:
> >
> > * I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
> > should “electrify everything” including transportation.
> >
> > * EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
> > failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
> > electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In 1990, the
> > California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be zero-emission
> > vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
> > California have an electric plug.
> >
> > * The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
> > roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits force
> > low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer crowd.
> >
> > * Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for grid
> > upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own one.
> >
> > * This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
> > need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
> > ratepayers: about $13 billion.
> >
> > * Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
> > prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices went up
> > by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This, in a
> > state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
> > America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
> > regressive policies?
> >
> > * I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is the
> > opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of our
> > energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target for
> > terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
> > reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural disaster,
> > equipment failure, or human error.”
> >
> > I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing work
> > done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying half
> > of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:
> >
> > * 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
> > * 4 times global neodymium output
> > * 3 times global lithium production
> > * 2 times world copper production
> >
> > I concluded by saying:
> >
> > Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
> > density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines and
> > hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
> > Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on electrification
> > schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans, reduce
> > our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious trifecta.
> >
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Most damning, in my mind, are the very regressive policies which make poor
people pay for rich people to enjoy electric cars.  Poor people pay
electric bills, and part of those bills are the infrastructure upgrades to
the grid.  Middle class people pay taxes, some of those taxes pay for
incentives for upper middle class and rich people to buy electric cars.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:39 PM Meade Dillon  wrote:

> Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the subject
> of electric vehicles.
>
>
> https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf
>
> Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy, and I
> encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
> summarized by him:
>
> * I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
> should “electrify everything” including transportation.
>
> * EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
> failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
> electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In 1990, the
> California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be zero-emission
> vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
> California have an electric plug.
>
> * The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
> roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits force
> low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer crowd.
>
> * Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for grid
> upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own one.
>
> * This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
> need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
> ratepayers: about $13 billion.
>
> * Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
> prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices went up
> by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This, in a
> state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
> America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
> regressive policies?
>
> * I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is the
> opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of our
> energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target for
> terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
> reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural disaster,
> equipment failure, or human error.”
>
> I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing work
> done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying half
> of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:
>
> * 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
> * 4 times global neodymium output
> * 3 times global lithium production
> * 2 times world copper production
>
> I concluded by saying:
>
> Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
> density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines and
> hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
> Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on electrification
> schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans, reduce
> our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious trifecta.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

Thank you Max.

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, 3:40 PM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the subject of
> electric vehicles.
>
>
> https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf
>
> Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy, and I
> encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
> summarized by him:
>
> * I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
> should “electrify everything” including transportation.
>
> * EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
> failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
> electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In 1990, the
> California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be zero-emission
> vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
> California have an electric plug.
>
> * The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
> roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits force
> low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer crowd.
>
> * Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for grid
> upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own one.
>
> * This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
> need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
> ratepayers: about $13 billion.
>
> * Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
> prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices went up
> by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This, in a
> state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
> America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
> regressive policies?
>
> * I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is the
> opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of our
> energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target for
> terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
> reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural disaster,
> equipment failure, or human error.”
>
> I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing work
> done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying half
> of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:
>
> * 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
> * 4 times global neodymium output
> * 3 times global lithium production
> * 2 times world copper production
>
> I concluded by saying:
>
> Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
> density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines and
> hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
> Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on electrification
> schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans, reduce
> our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious trifecta.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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[MBZ] OT Electric Vehicles On Collision Course With Reality

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Robert Bryce testified before a House committee yesterday on the subject of
electric vehicles.

https://docs.house.gov/meetings/CN/CN00/20210630/112853/HHRG-117-CN00-Wstate-BryceR-20210630.pdf

Robert is one of the country’s most knowledgeable experts on energy, and I
encourage you to read his entire testimony. Here are some highlights as
summarized by him:

* I’m pro-electricity, but I am adamantly opposed to the notion that we
should “electrify everything” including transportation.

* EVs are cool. They are not new. The history of EVs is a century of
failure tailgating failure. In 1911, the New York Times said that the
electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution.” In 1990, the
California Air Resources Board mandated 10% of car sales be zero-emission
vehicles by 2003. Today, 31 years later, only about 6% of the cars in
California have an electric plug.

* The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s
roughly two times the U.S. average. And yet, federal EV tax credits force
low- and middle-income taxpayers to subsidize the Benz and Beemer crowd.

* Lower-income Americans are facing huge electric rate increases for grid
upgrades to accommodate EVs even though they will probably never own one.

* This month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will
need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. The likely cost to
ratepayers: about $13 billion.

* Meanwhile, blackouts are almost certain this summer and electricity
prices are “absolutely exploding.” California’s electricity prices went up
by 7.5% last year and they will likely rise another 40% by 2030. This, in a
state with the highest poverty rate and largest Latino population in
America. How is racial justice or social equity being served by such
regressive policies?

* I also talked about resilience, saying “Electrifying everything is the
opposite of anti-fragile. Electrifying transportation will put more of our
energy eggs in one basket. It will make the grid an even-bigger target for
terrorists, cyberthieves, or bad actors. It will reduce resilience and
reliability in case of a prolonged grid failure due to natural disaster,
equipment failure, or human error.”

I also highlighted the myriad supply-chain problems with EVs. Citing work
done by the Natural History Museum in London, I said that electrifying half
of the U.S. motor vehicle fleet would require in rough terms:

* 9 times the world’s current cobalt production
* 4 times global neodymium output
* 3 times global lithium production
* 2 times world copper production

I concluded by saying:

Oil’s dominance in transportation is largely due to its high energy
density. That density and improvements in internal combustion engines and
hybrids assure that oil will be fueling transport for decades to come.
Powerful lobby groups want Congress to spend billions on electrification
schemes that will impose regressive taxes on low-income Americans, reduce
our resilience, and increase reliance on China. That’s a dubious trifecta.

-
Max
Charleston SC
___
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