Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
That is purportedly just a rumor. Theres no doubt GM cheaped out on head bolts and the 350 diesel apparently makes a great base to build a gasser engine on but its not a dieselized gasser. -Curt Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 20:09:05 -0600 From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline Message-ID: a062408adcaf4a8f01f2f@[192.168.1.53] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed My Dad was down on diesels since the '70s when one of his chowderhead drinking buddies ran his diesel pickup (probably a GM350) out of fuel and used gasoline instead even though kerosene was available. Apparently they got just a few miles before the engine refused to go any farther. My MB's have started to change his mind. The Shovey used a roosamaster pump. Those do NOT like gasoline. Dieselized gas engine is a dumb idea too. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
Call it what you want. Compared to even an old OM621 or an OM636, or a JD, IH, Cummins, Detroit, Cat, Perkins, or even a petter, it is a crappy engine. That is purportedly just a rumor. Theres no doubt GM cheaped out on head bolts and the 350 diesel apparently makes a great base to build a gasser engine on but its not a dieselized gasser. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
I was wrenching in tech school when these came out. I can assure you that they were built on the small block 350 platform, with a different crank and pistons, I believe. I can't comment on the top end, as I don't recall any details about it. I will say that the Roosamaster distributor pump has very tight clearances in the fuel distributor portion, and lubrication from the fuel is critical to its proper operation. If you ran anything but diesel in one of these (Roosamaster) whether they were on a GM diesel conversion or anything else, I can guarantee it will fail within minutes. There was a known issue with mains failing due to the bolts not being adequate to handle the pressures on the crank. GM later drilled out the bolt holes and used longer bolts. I suspect the problems manifested themselves in the top ends as well, although I never saw this myself. A little known fact: There was also a 260 CID converted diesel that was only sold in Oldsmobiles for a couple of years, sometime in the late 70s. It, like it's larger counterpart, was an equally disasterous engine. The difference was that the block was sleeved for some reason, effectively reducing the volume of the compression chamber. We had one of these in the shop, and were totally perplexed by it. Dan From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline Call it what you want. Compared to even an old OM621 or an OM636, or a JD, IH, Cummins, Detroit, Cat, Perkins, or even a petter, it is a crappy engine. That is purportedly just a rumor. Theres no doubt GM cheaped out on head bolts and the 350 diesel apparently makes a great base to build a gasser engine on but its not a dieselized gasser. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
The Olds 350 was a gasoline engine re-designed to be a diesel. This is common knowledge, I think. GM didn't make a V8 diesel at the time, at least Olds didn't, and it was NOT a new design, so there are not too many options for the source. If i was, in fact, a diesel from the ground up, it was by any measure one of the worst diesel designs every perpetrated on the public. In stationary use with proper fuel filters it wasn't a bad engine, although it was fairly low compression and hence fuel hungry, but GM was sloppy with manufacture and used a dud of a distributor IP in it. Quite a slug to drive, and VERY smoky. Think dragging a mid sized 80's GM body with a NA '75 MB 300D engine with 2.78 gears. Totally inadequate main bearings (quite common to spin the rear main at 25,000 miles or so, repeatedly), crappy head gasket, not enough head bolts (from the gasoline engine heritage) and no water filter resulted in most of them being in the junkyard pretty fast. If you got a good one, and you could keep enough battery power in it to actually start it (the glow plug system stunk, too), they weren't bad, and if it didn't blow head gaskets, crack, bugger the IP, or spin bearings driving on the highway, no worse than any other midsized GM car of the era. Having owned one of those, that's no saying much. I think I permanently damaged my knee from ramming it into the headlight switch, which for reasons I don't want to know stuck out from the dash beyond the door opening right a knee level. I know several people who had them, and they were nearly impossible to keep running for any length of time. Expensive to fix, too. Peter On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Dieselhead wrote: Call it what you want. Compared to even an old OM621 or an OM636, or a JD, IH, Cummins, Detroit, Cat, Perkins, or even a petter, it is a crappy engine. That is purportedly just a rumor. Theres no doubt GM cheaped out on head bolts and the 350 diesel apparently makes a great base to build a gasser engine on but its not a dieselized gasser. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
One of the best decisions I've ever made was declining a new '79 Olds Diesel in fall of '79 and waited coupla months for a new '80 MB 240D. Wilton - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline The Olds 350 was a gasoline engine re-designed to be a diesel. This is common knowledge, I think. GM didn't make a V8 diesel at the time, at least Olds didn't, and it was NOT a new design, so there are not too many options for the source. If i was, in fact, a diesel from the ground up, it was by any measure one of the worst diesel designs every perpetrated on the public. In stationary use with proper fuel filters it wasn't a bad engine, although it was fairly low compression and hence fuel hungry, but GM was sloppy with manufacture and used a dud of a distributor IP in it. Quite a slug to drive, and VERY smoky. Think dragging a mid sized 80's GM body with a NA '75 MB 300D engine with 2.78 gears. Totally inadequate main bearings (quite common to spin the rear main at 25,000 miles or so, repeatedly), crappy head gasket, not enough head bolts (from the gasoline engine heritage) and no water filter resulted in most of them being in the junkyard pretty fast. If you got a good one, and you could keep enough battery power in it to actually start it (the glow plug system stunk, too), they weren't bad, and if it didn't blow head gaskets, crack, bugger the IP, or spin bearings driving on the highway, no worse than any other midsized GM car of the era. Having owned one of those, that's no saying much. I think I permanently damaged my knee from ramming it into the headlight switch, which for reasons I don't want to know stuck out from the dash beyond the door opening right a knee level. I know several people who had them, and they were nearly impossible to keep running for any length of time. Expensive to fix, too. Peter On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Dieselhead wrote: Call it what you want. Compared to even an old OM621 or an OM636, or a JD, IH, Cummins, Detroit, Cat, Perkins, or even a petter, it is a crappy engine. That is purportedly just a rumor. Theres no doubt GM cheaped out on head bolts and the 350 diesel apparently makes a great base to build a gasser engine on but its not a dieselized gasser. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
Not the small block Chevy. It was based on the Olds 350, a completely different animal than the Chevy. A lot bigger and a lot more durable. Still not the best choice for a diesel platform though. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
TO me it is all GM C-Rap. Therefore to me is is all the same. A pile of c-rap from one person who are tacos is different form a pile of c-rap from somebody else who ate steak. To me, it is all c-rap. If to you a old 350 is different from a shovey 350, more power to you, but the same POS Diesel engine was used in old and shovey cars and trucks.None the less, some GM gasser was the basis for the GM v-8 diesel used in the 70s. I was talking originally about the GM v-8 Diesel used in in Shoveys regardless of the origin of the underlying gasser. To me the most telling sign that the designers were clueless, was using a tiny gasser filter and putting fuel in the top and out the bottom, so that any water went directly into the injectors to ruin them. Not to mention burying the said filter where nobody could find it without major effort. Not the small block Chevy. It was based on the Olds 350, a completely different animal than the Chevy. A lot bigger and a lot more durable. Still not the best choice for a diesel platform though. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Got a question. I am presuming that Jim's comment Rest assured that your older MB engines will survive the experience, though they won't be happy about it. Those inline Bosch pumps are quite hardy refers to mixing gas with diesel in a diesel engine. Forgive me if I misunderstood what he meant. ( His comment about the Bosch pump makes me wonder if I understood correctly). This reminded me of an incident a number years ago in the previous century. I had been told that introducing even a small amount of gasoline into the diesel fuel would result in a violent explosion in the cylinders that could do catastrophic damage to the engine, especially the pistons. Well one day shortly after I refueled the car, my wife called from about 10 miles away to tell me that the 82 240D was running exceptionally bad. I drove down in the other vehicle, traded vehicles with her and drove the diesel home. It run unusually rough, bucked, and jerked all the way home. In my appalling ignorance at the time, I tried racing the engine, driving fast, and a few other abusive tactics. The next day, I took it to a shop and was told they smelled gas at the filler cap, so they drained the tank. I was horrifed to find that there was gas in the fuel. Couldn't believe I had filled the tank with gas. When I asked the tech how much damage likely was done, his comment was that I was lucky that most of the fuel was gas. This made no sense to me. Maybe he meant that a small amount of gas might not have been noticeable and would have done more damage over time? The car suvived the experience. I never noticed any aftereffects, even years later. This leads me to wonder about what does happen if gas gets in the diesel fuel. Doesn't sound like it is catastrophic. What do you think? Jerry 82 240D (Has suffered abuse) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6656 (2024) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
told that introducing even a small amount of gasoline into the diesel fuel would result in a violent explosion in the cylinders that could do catastrophic damage to the engine, especially the pistons. Can't explode violently, there's no mixture except at the flame front. Might burn hotter than intended, so at full fueling it might well do damage. But it runs so bad that this is unlikely, IMHO. My guess is that the reason it runs so badly is that the injectors are designed for the viscosity of diesel fuel, and it just doesn't work right with gasoline. This leads me to wonder about what does happen if gas gets in the diesel fuel. Doesn't sound like it is catastrophic. What do you think? For rotary pumps that are lubricated by the fuel, it is indeed catastrophic. For the inlines, largely lubed by engine oil, not so bad. Remember that in the _owner's manual_, older MB's recommended up to 25% gasoline for severe winter duty as a thinner. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
Owner manual for Gump called for using kero for low temp fuel flow, or, if none were to be had, to use about a gallon of 87 octane to thin out the full tank. Just trying to lower the gel point, and petrol does a fine job. When I was doing B100, I was using petrol, since the lines would gel up once temps went below 45*F clay On Nov 24, 2011, at 10:05 AM, Jerry Herrman wrote: Happy Thanksgiving to all. Got a question. I am presuming that Jim's comment Rest assured that your older MB engines will survive the experience, though they won't be happy about it. Those inline Bosch pumps are quite hardy refers to mixing gas with diesel in a diesel engine. Forgive me if I misunderstood what he meant. ( His comment about the Bosch pump makes me wonder if I understood correctly). This reminded me of an incident a number years ago in the previous century. I had been told that introducing even a small amount of gasoline into the diesel fuel would result in a violent explosion in the cylinders that could do catastrophic damage to the engine, especially the pistons. Well one day shortly after I refueled the car, my wife called from about 10 miles away to tell me that the 82 240D was running exceptionally bad. I drove down in the other vehicle, traded vehicles with her and drove the diesel home. It run unusually rough, bucked, and jerked all the way home. In my appalling ignorance at the time, I tried racing the engine, driving fast, and a few other abusive tactics. The next day, I took it to a shop and was told they smelled gas at the filler cap, so they drained the tank. I was horrifed to find that there was gas in the fuel. Couldn't believe I had filled the tank with gas. When I asked the tech how much damage likely was done, his comment was that I was lucky that most of the fuel was gas. This made no sense to me. Maybe he meant that a small amount of gas might not have been noticeable and would have done more damage over time? The car suvived the experience. I never noticed any aftereffects, even years later. This leads me to wonder about what does happen if gas gets in the diesel fuel. Doesn't sound like it is catastrophic. What do you think? Jerry 82 240D (Has suffered abuse) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6656 (2024) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
The old tale about never have gasoline around Diesel was true for American Diesels built before 1975 or so. They did not not explode, but they would blow the head bolts loose, and if you ever hears a vw with loose heads in the 70s, multiply that by the ratio of the displacement difference (1600CC vs___) and you can imagine the racket made people say it was a violent explosion. Our MBs, as Clay pointed out, are stronger, and can be successfully run on up to 25% petrol/Benzin/gasoline successfully. (iron heads only) The guy who used to do IP and nozzle work for me had seen many Diesels with the heads loosened by gasoline, and he would not allow a drop of gasoline near his shop. Not even to clean parts. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Got a question. I am presuming that Jim's comment Rest assured that your older MB engines will survive the experience, though they won't be happy about it. Those inline Bosch pumps are quite hardy refers to mixing gas with diesel in a diesel engine. Forgive me if I misunderstood what he meant. ( His comment about the Bosch pump makes me wonder if I understood correctly). This reminded me of an incident a number years ago in the previous century. I had been told that introducing even a small amount of gasoline into the diesel fuel would result in a violent explosion in the cylinders that could do catastrophic damage to the engine, especially the pistons. Well one day shortly after I refueled the car, my wife called from about 10 miles away to tell me that the 82 240D was running exceptionally bad. I drove down in the other vehicle, traded vehicles with her and drove the diesel home. It run unusually rough, bucked, and jerked all the way home. In my appalling ignorance at the time, I tried racing the engine, driving fast, and a few other abusive tactics. The next day, I took it to a shop and was told they smelled gas at the filler cap, so they drained the tank. I was horrifed to find that there was gas in the fuel. Couldn't believe I had filled the tank with gas. When I asked the tech how much damage likely was done, his comment was that I was lucky that most of the fuel was gas. This made no sense to me. Maybe he meant that a small amount of gas might not have been noticeable and would have done more damage over time? The car suvived the experience. I never noticed any aftereffects, even years later. This leads me to wonder about what does happen if gas gets in the diesel fuel. Doesn't sound like it is catastrophic. What do you think? Jerry 82 240D (Has suffered abuse) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6656 (2024) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
My Dad was down on diesels since the '70s when one of his chowderhead drinking buddies ran his diesel pickup (probably a GM350) out of fuel and used gasoline instead even though kerosene was available. Apparently they got just a few miles before the engine refused to go any farther. My MB's have started to change his mind. -Curt Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:22:32 -0600 From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline Message-ID: a062408aacaf49c7c33ff@[192.168.1.53] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed The old tale about never have gasoline around Diesel was true for American Diesels built before 1975 or so. They did not not explode, but they would blow the head bolts loose, and if you ever hears a vw with loose heads in the 70s, multiply that by the ratio of the displacement difference (1600CC vs___) and you can imagine the racket made people say it was a violent explosion. Our MBs, as Clay pointed out, are stronger, and can be successfully run on up to 25% petrol/Benzin/gasoline successfully. (iron heads only) The guy who used to do IP and nozzle work for me had seen many Diesels with the heads loosened by gasoline, and he would not allow a drop of gasoline near his shop. Not even to clean parts. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
My Dad was down on diesels since the '70s when one of his chowderhead drinking buddies ran his diesel pickup (probably a GM350) out of fuel and used gasoline instead even though kerosene was available. Apparently they got just a few miles before the engine refused to go any farther. My MB's have started to change his mind. The Shovey used a roosamaster pump. Those do NOT like gasoline. Dieselized gas engine is a dumb idea too. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] mixing diesel and gasoline
He's lucky. I had a co-worker who had an Olds with the converted Diesel 350. He ran out of fuel about a half of mile from our heliport, Rather than walking to our hanger and getting a gal of JP4 he poured about 2 gal of gas he had in a can in the trunk (it was for the base mower). Cranked up the Olds put it in gear and started to accelerate. BIG Kaboom ensued. I was on the flight line doing a preflight and heard it. About 10 min later he comes walking up to get help to tow the car to the base. Right hand head had blown off and put a dent in the hood. GM had just replaced the under warranty. That was one of GM's stupid ideas that gave diesels a bad name. Russ W. On 11/24/2011 8:04 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: My Dad was down on diesels since the '70s when one of his chowderhead drinking buddies ran his diesel pickup (probably a GM350) out of fuel and used gasoline instead even though kerosene was available. Apparently they got just a few miles before the engine refused to go any farther. My MB's have started to change his mind. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
