Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
On Aug 11, 2007, at 8:36 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote: A Diesel Purge treatment will fix this. My 240D engine is very good about telling me when it is time to run on Purge for a half hour. Ok, back home after doing that mountain driving. In the reverse route the grades are 4-6% versus 8% so couldn't run flat out because that exceeded the 110+10% km/hr speed limit, as mentioned earlier at 8% I could only hold it at 120 km/hr, however coasting down that same grade we hit 146 km/hr according to the GPS. (gas cars coast much faster btw) I did manage to raise the temp to about 110C over a 6% grade covering 25 km, versus the 100C on the shorter 8% grade. Tomorrow I'll run a Diesel Purge treatment and see what happens to the noise and have my garage check the exhaust system for issues. I recall they mentioned a small hole or something last time it was in, perhaps it's much bigger now. As a bonus I saw a Unimog (euro plates I think, box on back) east of Vancouver, roaring along at 70 km/hr on highway #1, plus a late 80's w124 300TE/fourmatic with cargo rack and carrier. John 1983 300TDt 382k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 203k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 192k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Please explain why a rough running diesel can be diagnosed as weak injectors with different pop pressures. -- Luther KB5QHUAlma, Ark '87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case '85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi) BioBeast '82 300CD (166 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold '85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine Quoting Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: But for all practical purposes, diesel fuel is not compressible. It's like the pendulum composed of 5 suspended balls. You pull one away, let go and as soon as it hits the second one, the 5th one swings out, then the 5th one swings back in, hits the 4th one the first one swings out, etc, etc. In this example, what's being transferred in the energy provided by releasing the first ball. The same is true with the fuel in the injection lines. The IP delivers pressure to the front end, the pressure travels down the line in a very fast moving wave, the pressure wave overcomes the poppet valve spring pressure the entire column of fuel moves down the line. This is also why diesel injector lines are all a constant length. The pressure wave travels at a set speed if the lines were different lengths then you really would have a timing issue. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
The increase in pressure is not instant. Thus different opening pressures will change the timing and the amount of fuel delivered. Trampas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luther Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:57 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter Please explain why a rough running diesel can be diagnosed as weak injectors with different pop pressures. -- Luther KB5QHUAlma, Ark '87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case '85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi) BioBeast '82 300CD (166 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold '85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine Quoting Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: But for all practical purposes, diesel fuel is not compressible. It's like the pendulum composed of 5 suspended balls. You pull one away, let go and as soon as it hits the second one, the 5th one swings out, then the 5th one swings back in, hits the 4th one the first one swings out, etc, etc. In this example, what's being transferred in the energy provided by releasing the first ball. The same is true with the fuel in the injection lines. The IP delivers pressure to the front end, the pressure travels down the line in a very fast moving wave, the pressure wave overcomes the poppet valve spring pressure the entire column of fuel moves down the line. This is also why diesel injector lines are all a constant length. The pressure wave travels at a set speed if the lines were different lengths then you really would have a timing issue. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Luther wrote: Please explain why a rough running diesel can be diagnosed as weak injectors with different pop pressures. A diesel engine will NOT idle smoothly if the injector pop pressures exceed a 5 bar range. With the pressure matched even closer (2-3 bar) the engine will idle even more smoothly (providing everything else is working as it should). Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
John M McIntosh wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. On the clatter, check the serpentine belt tensioner shock absorber. It can make a racket not unlike valve clatter when it fails. Push on the shock upper and lower bushing with the engine running and if the clatter is altered or subsides, you've found the problem. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:56:16 -0400 Bill Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like the high altitude, grade percent, and load weight produced a lot of carbon build up ..drive it hard The conditions he described are what's called for in an Italian tuneup. He was driving it hard. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
speaking of clatter etc. Some may remember I posted a while back I have a SDL that clatters louder than a 617 and has alot of black smoke. I figured it was injectors and so did others. Ordered new injectors from Rusty and installed them. Clatter seems to be down, smoke for the most part seems to be down but it still has black smoke more than I would like at times. Did/does this when under mild/heavy throttle. Now it doesnt seem to do it all the time but some times/alot of the time. What else could cause black smoke like this? Air filter is new. Timing? EGR? dave walton wrote: My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: speaking of clatter etc. Some may remember I posted a while back I have a SDL that clatters louder than a 617 and has alot of black smoke. I figured it was injectors and so did others. Ordered new injectors from Rusty and installed them. Clatter seems to be down, smoke for the most part seems to be down but it still has black smoke more than I would like at times. Did/does this when under mild/heavy throttle. Now it doesnt seem to do it all the time but some times/alot of the time. What else could cause black smoke like this? Air filter is new. Timing? EGR? Adjust the ALDA clockwise until the smoke is barely visible at 4000+ rpm at full load, full pedal. Then measure 0-62 mph acceleration! Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
IP or pre-chamber ball pin, especially if you can narrow it down to one cylinder. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 9:34 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter speaking of clatter etc. Some may remember I posted a while back I have a SDL that clatters louder than a 617 and has alot of black smoke. I figured it was injectors and so did others. Ordered new injectors from Rusty and installed them. Clatter seems to be down, smoke for the most part seems to be down but it still has black smoke more than I would like at times. Did/does this when under mild/heavy throttle. Now it doesnt seem to do it all the time but some times/alot of the time. What else could cause black smoke like this? Air filter is new. Timing? EGR? dave walton wrote: My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Stuck EGR will produce copious smoke, funky clatter (not like injector knock, softer) and lousy performance. Test by unplugging the vac line to the EGR. Usually idles OK, but falls down flat on application of pedal, goes away at speed. Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 9:33 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: speaking of clatter etc. Some may remember I posted a while back I have a SDL that clatters louder than a 617 and has alot of black smoke. I figured it was injectors and so did others. Ordered new injectors from Rusty and installed them. Clatter seems to be down, smoke for the most part seems to be down but it still has black smoke more than I would like at times. Did/does this when under mild/heavy throttle. Now it doesnt seem to do it all the time but some times/alot of the time. What else could cause black smoke like this? Air filter is new. Timing? EGR? dave walton wrote: My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
You have forgotten some important points. I don't know how fast your arm is but the down stroke on my pressure tester is probably 100 times slower than the delivery stroke on at diesel IP at idle the delivery stroke speed only gets faster as the engine RPMs increase. Plus on a tight system, the injector line is already at the pop-off pressure from the last cycle. This means that delivery starts the moment the IP piston port closes regardless of spring tension. You have to re-build pressure with every stroke of your tester. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:32 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Opening pressure does have an effect on timing, as it takes a finite amount of travel to open the nozzle and there is some compression effect (although minor). That's why you should set all the nozzles close to the same pressure, whatever it is, when rebuilding, else you may get a rumbling engine at idle due to different opening times. Some engines show this much more than others. Leaking injectors cause much more timing divergence, obviously, so do leaking delivery valves or seals. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
All the flow through the return line is the result of pressure drop AFTER the injector fires, right? My direct observation has been that the same injectors set to different release pressures affect the amount of clatter. I have been assuming that is due to the timing difference. Am I wrong? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have forgotten some important points. I don't know how fast your arm is but the down stroke on my pressure tester is probably 100 times slower than the delivery stroke on at diesel IP at idle the delivery stroke speed only gets faster as the engine RPMs increase. Plus on a tight system, the injector line is already at the pop-off pressure from the last cycle. This means that delivery starts the moment the IP piston port closes regardless of spring tension. You have to re-build pressure with every stroke of your tester. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:32 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
I thought those were usually set on the lean side from the factory? Mine has not been adjusted before. Marshall Booth wrote: Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: speaking of clatter etc. Some may remember I posted a while back I have a SDL that clatters louder than a 617 and has alot of black smoke. I figured it was injectors and so did others. Ordered new injectors from Rusty and installed them. Clatter seems to be down, smoke for the most part seems to be down but it still has black smoke more than I would like at times. Did/does this when under mild/heavy throttle. Now it doesnt seem to do it all the time but some times/alot of the time. What else could cause black smoke like this? Air filter is new. Timing? EGR? Adjust the ALDA clockwise until the smoke is barely visible at 4000+ rpm at full load, full pedal. Then measure 0-62 mph acceleration! Marshall -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Will it be black smoke? I have never had an EGR problem before. Peter Frederick wrote: Stuck EGR will produce copious smoke, funky clatter (not like injector knock, softer) and lousy performance. Test by unplugging the vac line to the EGR. Usually idles OK, but falls down flat on application of pedal, goes away at speed. Peter -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
All of the flow in the return line is due to fuel that leaks past the injector body it's a very small leak. The leak is intentional is designed to lubricate the injector. You are correct that the pressure setting affects the way the engine runs but the pressure setting affect the spray pattern. Higher pressure = faster spray from the injector nozzle = better atomization of the fuel. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:15 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter All the flow through the return line is the result of pressure drop AFTER the injector fires, right? My direct observation has been that the same injectors set to different release pressures affect the amount of clatter. I have been assuming that is due to the timing difference. Am I wrong? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have forgotten some important points. I don't know how fast your arm is but the down stroke on my pressure tester is probably 100 times slower than the delivery stroke on at diesel IP at idle the delivery stroke speed only gets faster as the engine RPMs increase. Plus on a tight system, the injector line is already at the pop-off pressure from the last cycle. This means that delivery starts the moment the IP piston port closes regardless of spring tension. You have to re-build pressure with every stroke of your tester. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:32 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
This is turning into a dead horse, but what the hell... Wouldn't a bad spray pattern delay the ignition of the fuel? My assumption has been that the clatter is due to early ignition. Thanks -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of the flow in the return line is due to fuel that leaks past the injector body it's a very small leak. The leak is intentional is designed to lubricate the injector. You are correct that the pressure setting affects the way the engine runs but the pressure setting affect the spray pattern. Higher pressure = faster spray from the injector nozzle = better atomization of the fuel. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:15 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter All the flow through the return line is the result of pressure drop AFTER the injector fires, right? My direct observation has been that the same injectors set to different release pressures affect the amount of clatter. I have been assuming that is due to the timing difference. Am I wrong? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have forgotten some important points. I don't know how fast your arm is but the down stroke on my pressure tester is probably 100 times slower than the delivery stroke on at diesel IP at idle the delivery stroke speed only gets faster as the engine RPMs increase. Plus on a tight system, the injector line is already at the pop-off pressure from the last cycle. This means that delivery starts the moment the IP piston port closes regardless of spring tension. You have to re-build pressure with every stroke of your tester. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:32 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Re-read my previous email. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:46 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter This is turning into a dead horse, but what the hell... Wouldn't a bad spray pattern delay the ignition of the fuel? My assumption has been that the clatter is due to early ignition. Thanks -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of the flow in the return line is due to fuel that leaks past the injector body it's a very small leak. The leak is intentional is designed to lubricate the injector. You are correct that the pressure setting affects the way the engine runs but the pressure setting affect the spray pattern. Higher pressure = faster spray from the injector nozzle = better atomization of the fuel. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:15 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter All the flow through the return line is the result of pressure drop AFTER the injector fires, right? My direct observation has been that the same injectors set to different release pressures affect the amount of clatter. I have been assuming that is due to the timing difference. Am I wrong? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have forgotten some important points. I don't know how fast your arm is but the down stroke on my pressure tester is probably 100 times slower than the delivery stroke on at diesel IP at idle the delivery stroke speed only gets faster as the engine RPMs increase. Plus on a tight system, the injector line is already at the pop-off pressure from the last cycle. This means that delivery starts the moment the IP piston port closes regardless of spring tension. You have to re-build pressure with every stroke of your tester. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:32 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter The more pressure exerted by the spring in the injector, the more fuel pressure it takes for the injector to fire. It takes more Time to develop higher pressure. Time = Timing. Hook an injector up to a pressure tester, change the shims and see for yourself. Am I missing something? -Dave Walton On 8/12/07, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timing is 100% controlled by the IP the injector is just a poppet valve. Weak spring pressure affects the spray pattern, not the injection timing this causes the clatter. Another failure is a leaking injector which can leak fuel into the pre-chamber during the intake stroke cause nailing. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dave walton Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter My experience has been that diesel clatter is caused by weakening of the spring in the injector. That causes it to fire at a lower pressure. Eventually it injects the fuel so prematurely that it ignites while the piston is still on the upstroke. -Dave Walton On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Liquids don't compress. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:04 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter Opening pressure does have an effect on timing, as it takes a finite amount of travel to open the nozzle and there is some compression effect (although minor). That's why you should set all the nozzles close to the same pressure, whatever it is, when rebuilding, else you may get a rumbling engine at idle due to different opening times. Some engines show this much more than others. Leaking injectors cause much more timing divergence, obviously, so do leaking delivery valves or seals. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Huge inky clouds sometimes. Quite startling -- I had this problem on my Volvo TD, may not be so bad on the Benz. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Say an air compressor is set to turn off at 120 psi. This takes 8 minutes and x number of strokes of said air compressor to achieve this. Then, change the pressure cutoff to 110 psi, and it now takes 7 minutes 23 seconds and x-150 strokes of said air compressor. Then, change the pressure to cutoff at 130 psi. That takes 9 minutes 5 seconds and x+200 strokes of your air compressor. ***disclaimer:all previous calculations are random guesses*** The same physical rule applies to our injection systems. If you lower the pop pressure, the timing will be advanced. If you raise the pop pressure, the timing will be retarded. If you have properly set injectors (according to MB's spec) and if your IP pump produces the correct amount of pressure per stroke (i.e. not worn) and if your timing chain is not stretched, your timing will be correct. Any one of these factors can change with age and cause the timing to change. This is simple physics folks, you can't break/bend the law. -- Luther KB5QHUAlma, Ark '87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case '85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi) '82 300CD (166 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold '85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
It seems than at Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:49:50 -0500, Luther wrote: Say an air compressor But diesel is a liquid, and as such it doesn't compress. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
But for all practical purposes, diesel fuel is not compressible. It's like the pendulum composed of 5 suspended balls. You pull one away, let go and as soon as it hits the second one, the 5th one swings out, then the 5th one swings back in, hits the 4th one the first one swings out, etc, etc. In this example, what's being transferred in the energy provided by releasing the first ball. The same is true with the fuel in the injection lines. The IP delivers pressure to the front end, the pressure travels down the line in a very fast moving wave, the pressure wave overcomes the poppet valve spring pressure the entire column of fuel moves down the line. This is also why diesel injector lines are all a constant length. The pressure wave travels at a set speed if the lines were different lengths then you really would have a timing issue. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luther Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 12:50 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter Say an air compressor is set to turn off at 120 psi. This takes 8 minutes and x number of strokes of said air compressor to achieve this. Then, change the pressure cutoff to 110 psi, and it now takes 7 minutes 23 seconds and x-150 strokes of said air compressor. Then, change the pressure to cutoff at 130 psi. That takes 9 minutes 5 seconds and x+200 strokes of your air compressor. ***disclaimer:all previous calculations are random guesses*** The same physical rule applies to our injection systems. If you lower the pop pressure, the timing will be advanced. If you raise the pop pressure, the timing will be retarded. If you have properly set injectors (according to MB's spec) and if your IP pump produces the correct amount of pressure per stroke (i.e. not worn) and if your timing chain is not stretched, your timing will be correct. Any one of these factors can change with age and cause the timing to change. This is simple physics folks, you can't break/bend the law. -- Luther KB5QHUAlma, Ark '87 300SDL (272,xxx mi) head case '85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x58,xxx mi) '82 300CD (166 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold '85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:53:12 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquids don't compress. Believe me, everything compresses. It's just that some things compress more than others. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:21:40 -0500 Fmiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems than at Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:49:50 -0500, Luther wrote: Say an air compressor But diesel is a liquid, and as such it doesn't compress. It does compress, just not as much as air. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
I understand but in this case, it matters very little. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:31 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:53:12 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquids don't compress. Believe me, everything compresses. It's just that some things compress more than others. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
A Diesel Purge treatment will fix this. My 240D engine is very good about telling me when it is time to run on Purge for a half hour. On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- LT Don http://don.homelinux.net/~don/ Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] thoughts on diesel clatter
Sounds like the high altitude, grade percent, and load weight produced a lot of carbon build up ..drive it hard Bill 1981 300 TD Wonko the Sane wrote: A Diesel Purge treatment will fix this. My 240D engine is very good about telling me when it is time to run on Purge for a half hour. On 8/11/07, John M McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well since my 500SEL is busy having a rebuilt transmission installed I was forced to cart four people across the rockies up the Coquihalla Highway 5 to 8% grade for nearly 3000 feet of altitude in the 92 wagon. For reference the OM603 will only do 75 mph flat out up the 8% grade, water temp rose from 85C to 100C. That and another 500 miles of mountain driving and 250 miles of flat land. After all this my wife noticed the clatter is *much* louder at idle, much more clatter/bearings bouncing/burbling kinda noise. I wondering if I knocked loose lots of carbon (mind our normal driving over the last 40K miles has been highway), and it's causing all this racket? Well that or blew a exhaust gasket (don't think so) or muffler joint. PS Saturday night in a unnamed rednecked city, never seen so many chipped dodge ram 3500s. When they stomp the throttle at the intersections, billowing clouds of black diesel smoke, same on the highway, mind at 80 mph it's lots of roar and smoke, not much acceleration, no need to check blind spots you sure can hear them. John 1983 300TDt 385k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 202k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
