Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
> With care, the KC boom could tow an unpowered fighter, done several times in > SEA. And do what with it? Can you land coupled? Unpowered jet flies like a rock. Drag it to a safer place to punch out? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
To visualize Dutch Roll, visualize driving your MBZ inside a big pipe, straight and level along the bottom.. Now push the steering wheel a little left (or right) and let go. The car will climb the left side (or right) of the pipe (experiencing yaw roll angle) until the car steers itself back to the bottom of the pipe. At this point, one of two things happen: either the oscillation damps out (each excursion smaller than one before) and the car converges on straight and lever (preferred result) or it shoots up the other side even more than before (divergent oscillation) so oscillation grows and continues. -Original Message- From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Allan Streib via Mercedes Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2021 1:33 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Cc: Allan Streib Subject: Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft I have only been close to getting airsick once, I was on some regional jet probably an Embraer, that seemed to be both yawing and rocking side-to-side at the same time (is this "dutch roll"?). It was slight, but persistent, and eventually I started feeling nauseated. Normal turbulence/rough air does not really bother me, but that smooth rocking yaw really started to get to me after a while. On Sun, Dec 5, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote: > P3 Orion is the military version of the Lockheed Electra II, and the > C-130 Hercules is the high wing version (different fuselage, > essentially the same wing). > > It was designed as the "first class service" airplane when jets were > not reliable enough for passenger plane use, I think around 1952. I > think the Hercules went into service in 54, but I would be wrong. > > As a result of the expected competition for jet service, the Electra > was VERY powerful for the time, I think those turbo-props are 4000 shp > or so. It flew at 470 or 480 mph at 45,000 ft, although usual > operations were more like 20,000 I think due to fuel consumption. Not > a whole lot slower than the 707 or DC-8, neither of which were speed > demons. > > NOT the worlds most comfortable planes, they shook like hell and the > wings visibly "flapped" in flight, especially at low speed. Delta had > their first class cabin in the rear, it was the quietest part of the > plane. Only airplane I ever got close to getting airsick on. > > On the other hand, as CR Smith, the founder of American said, you had > to be an idiot to crash one. Barring mechancial failures, all you > ever had to do to get out of trouble was open the throttles and pull > up, it had tremendous power at low speeds due to the props. It is > possible to make a normal landing in one a full landing weight, then > open the throttles after touchdown and fly it off the runway. > > I suspect you could fly it almost like a Hercules in an emergency -- > hold the nose down on the runway just past V2 and pull back on the > stick -- the Herkybird will climb at 45 degrees at full take-off > weight doing that, probably need a shallower climb to keep from > slamming the tail on the runway on an Electra. > > P3s have some incredible on station air time, they are very fuel > efficient at submarine tracking speeds. > > Being replaced with 737 variants, I suspect mainly because the are all > getting very old with incredible hours on them and no new parts, the > Electra went out of service in the early 70s and I don't think > Lockheed made any past the late 60s/ > > On Dec 5, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote: > >> I got to ride on a P3 once in college. A buddy of mine was in ROTC and there some sort of recruiting thing where the Navy was giving rides on a P3 so he signed us up. The pilots were a coupla hotshots, and we were the only others on board, so they put on a show for us. It was lots of fun, the airplane was very powerful and could do a lot. My buddy eventually became a fighter pilot and I lost track of him after a few years. >> >> --FT >> >> On 12/5/21 12:05 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote: >>>> AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. >>> The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. >>> >>> ___ >>> http://www.okiebenz.com >>> >>> To search list archiveshttp://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >>> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> >> -- >> --FT >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archives http://www.oki
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
I have only been close to getting airsick once, I was on some regional jet probably an Embraer, that seemed to be both yawing and rocking side-to-side at the same time (is this "dutch roll"?). It was slight, but persistent, and eventually I started feeling nauseated. Normal turbulence/rough air does not really bother me, but that smooth rocking yaw really started to get to me after a while. On Sun, Dec 5, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote: > P3 Orion is the military version of the Lockheed Electra II, and the > C-130 Hercules is the high wing version (different fuselage, > essentially the same wing). > > It was designed as the "first class service" airplane when jets were > not reliable enough for passenger plane use, I think around 1952. I > think the Hercules went into service in 54, but I would be wrong. > > As a result of the expected competition for jet service, the Electra > was VERY powerful for the time, I think those turbo-props are 4000 shp > or so. It flew at 470 or 480 mph at 45,000 ft, although usual > operations were more like 20,000 I think due to fuel consumption. Not > a whole lot slower than the 707 or DC-8, neither of which were speed > demons. > > NOT the worlds most comfortable planes, they shook like hell and the > wings visibly "flapped" in flight, especially at low speed. Delta had > their first class cabin in the rear, it was the quietest part of the > plane. Only airplane I ever got close to getting airsick on. > > On the other hand, as CR Smith, the founder of American said, you had > to be an idiot to crash one. Barring mechancial failures, all you ever > had to do to get out of trouble was open the throttles and pull up, it > had tremendous power at low speeds due to the props. It is possible to > make a normal landing in one a full landing weight, then open the > throttles after touchdown and fly it off the runway. > > I suspect you could fly it almost like a Hercules in an emergency -- > hold the nose down on the runway just past V2 and pull back on the > stick -- the Herkybird will climb at 45 degrees at full take-off weight > doing that, probably need a shallower climb to keep from slamming the > tail on the runway on an Electra. > > P3s have some incredible on station air time, they are very fuel > efficient at submarine tracking speeds. > > Being replaced with 737 variants, I suspect mainly because the are all > getting very old with incredible hours on them and no new parts, the > Electra went out of service in the early 70s and I don't think Lockheed > made any past the late 60s/ > > On Dec 5, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote: > >> I got to ride on a P3 once in college. A buddy of mine was in ROTC and >> there some sort of recruiting thing where the Navy was giving rides on a P3 >> so he signed us up. The pilots were a coupla hotshots, and we were the only >> others on board, so they put on a show for us. It was lots of fun, the >> airplane was very powerful and could do a lot. My buddy eventually became a >> fighter pilot and I lost track of him after a few years. >> >> --FT >> >> On 12/5/21 12:05 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote: AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. >>> The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still >>> on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. >>> >>> ___ >>> http://www.okiebenz.com >>> >>> To search list archiveshttp://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >>> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> >> -- >> --FT >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
P3 Orion is the military version of the Lockheed Electra II, and the C-130 Hercules is the high wing version (different fuselage, essentially the same wing). It was designed as the "first class service" airplane when jets were not reliable enough for passenger plane use, I think around 1952. I think the Hercules went into service in 54, but I would be wrong. As a result of the expected competition for jet service, the Electra was VERY powerful for the time, I think those turbo-props are 4000 shp or so. It flew at 470 or 480 mph at 45,000 ft, although usual operations were more like 20,000 I think due to fuel consumption. Not a whole lot slower than the 707 or DC-8, neither of which were speed demons. NOT the worlds most comfortable planes, they shook like hell and the wings visibly "flapped" in flight, especially at low speed. Delta had their first class cabin in the rear, it was the quietest part of the plane. Only airplane I ever got close to getting airsick on. On the other hand, as CR Smith, the founder of American said, you had to be an idiot to crash one. Barring mechancial failures, all you ever had to do to get out of trouble was open the throttles and pull up, it had tremendous power at low speeds due to the props. It is possible to make a normal landing in one a full landing weight, then open the throttles after touchdown and fly it off the runway. I suspect you could fly it almost like a Hercules in an emergency -- hold the nose down on the runway just past V2 and pull back on the stick -- the Herkybird will climb at 45 degrees at full take-off weight doing that, probably need a shallower climb to keep from slamming the tail on the runway on an Electra. P3s have some incredible on station air time, they are very fuel efficient at submarine tracking speeds. Being replaced with 737 variants, I suspect mainly because the are all getting very old with incredible hours on them and no new parts, the Electra went out of service in the early 70s and I don't think Lockheed made any past the late 60s/ On Dec 5, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote: > I got to ride on a P3 once in college. A buddy of mine was in ROTC and there > some sort of recruiting thing where the Navy was giving rides on a P3 so he > signed us up. The pilots were a coupla hotshots, and we were the only others > on board, so they put on a show for us. It was lots of fun, the airplane was > very powerful and could do a lot. My buddy eventually became a fighter pilot > and I lost track of him after a few years. > > --FT > > On 12/5/21 12:05 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote: >>> AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. >> The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still >> on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. >> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archiveshttp://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> > -- > --FT > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
I do believe P3s are still in active duty. They were 10-15 years ago, I know. I used to see them all the time in AK and the Aleutians, as they were used for sub tracking in the north Pacific. -D From: Mercedes on behalf of Allan Streib via Mercedes Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2021 12:05 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Cc: Allan Streib Subject: Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft > AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
I got to ride on a P3 once in college. A buddy of mine was in ROTC and there some sort of recruiting thing where the Navy was giving rides on a P3 so he signed us up. The pilots were a coupla hotshots, and we were the only others on board, so they put on a show for us. It was lots of fun, the airplane was very powerful and could do a lot. My buddy eventually became a fighter pilot and I lost track of him after a few years. --FT On 12/5/21 12:05 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote: AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archiveshttp://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- --FT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
> AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. The P3 Orion is based on the Lockheed L-188 Electra, I think they are still on duty? I don't know if that's older than the 707 but gotta be close. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
My personal experience with the KC135 ended in 1982. At that time they all still had the original engines. Dutch roll damping was terrible at approach speeds and there was no yaw damper (unlike 707s) but you could use the autopilot yaw channel momentarily to kill the roll oscillation (not the flight manual procedure). Dutch Roll is a coupling between yaw and roll, common with swept wings, for those that don't know. The most amazing thing was the crew emergency egress chute in the cockpit. There was a "chinning bar" that when pulled down jettisoned a hatch. You were supposed to hang from that bar facing aft with your legs tucked up and drop through the hatch (with parachute on, of course). The theory was that tucking knees to chest would prevent you from smacking into the chute when the slipstream hit your legs. I am not aware of any bailout attempts, successful or otherwise. Still an amazing airplane when you consider when the KC was designed. AFAIK only the B52 is the only older (1952) design still on duty. On December 5, 2021 9:16 AM, Peter Frederick wrote I thought they had finally replaced the engines, long, long overdue. Should make them much easier to fly a low speed, the original 707/KC135 was a handful with poor lateral stability and VERY low power at landing speeds. BOAC rejected the first version because it would not fly without full power on at least one engine on each side -- considering the history of jet engines at the time, and the fact that there was an extra hard point to carry a spare engine on each wing, it wasn't out of the realm of real possibility to have both fail on one side during flight. Turns out even the J57 or equivalent was a very reliable engine BOAC took them after a large ventral fin was added to the tail underneath and the rudder made substantially larger. I don't know if those mods were made to the KC135. Very soon after than they all got P$W turbofans too, which helped at low speed. J57 equipped KC135 or original 707 at full up weight required a 15,000 ft runway and water injection. Upgrading the engines would definitely reduce the takeoff run, probably by a lot. I wouldn't see that as a problem On Dec 5, 2021, at 12:01 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote: > No longer a factor. All surviving KC135s are reengined from the old J57 > turbojet to more modern fan engines with twice the thrust and 25-40% better > fuel specifics. > A classmate (with much KC time) once opined the better engines would only > force them to take off with more fuel from shorter runways. Back in the J57 > days it was typical to offload fuel before take off on hot days (while > taxiing to the runway). > The basic KC EWO mission was to proceed to the assigned orbit and pass gas > until they themselves flamed out or were recalled. > With care, the KC boom could tow an unpowered fighter, done several times in > SEA. > > On\, December 4, 2021 6:59 PM, Peter Frederick wrote > > Good thing my high end hearing isn't good anyway then! Turbojets scream > something aweful! > > On Dec 4, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote: > >> You ain't heard nuthin 'til you are in the back of a KC135 during a wet >> (J57) takeoff. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Peter Frederick via Mercedes >> Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2021 6:37 PM >> To: Mercedes Discussion List >> Cc: Peter Frederick >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Reboot Your Aircraft >> >> All the low bypass turbojets are noisy. I flew in a British one once, don't >> remember what it was, but it had two Rolls Conways in the back. Very noisy >> engines. >> >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 5:17 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: >> >>> When the family first started with Ambassadair, they were still flying >>> 707s. I flew them a couple times. Noisy as heck as I recall. >>> >>> -D >>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 4:13 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote: The L-1011 was probably the best of that generation, sadly it never sold as well as the DC-10, which was NOT the best of that generation. Beautiful aircraft, and I've heard it was nice to fly as well. > On Dec 4, 2021, at 4:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: > > I flew on N194AT and N163AT frequently in the early half of the 1980s as > a member of a “Ambassadair”, later known as “ATA” when it was a private > travel club. One was a -100 variant, the other a -500 model. Both of > these were used for international and long-haul domestic flights as well > as charters. There was a third L-1011 in their fleet but I don’t have > pictures of it. I think it was destroyed in a ground fire in the late 80s. > > My Mom did many, many hours in these as she traveled extensively with > them overseas. They had at least one DC-10 I know she flew in with them > as well, they might have had more, I don’t
Re: [MBZ] KC135 Trivia Was RE: OT - Reboot Your Aircraft
I thought they had finally replaced the engines, long, long overdue. Should make them much easier to fly a low speed, the original 707/KC135 was a handful with poor lateral stability and VERY low power at landing speeds. BOAC rejected the first version because it would not fly without full power on at least one engine on each side -- considering the history of jet engines at the time, and the fact that there was an extra hard point to carry a spare engine on each wing, it wasn't out of the realm of real possibility to have both fail on one side during flight. Turns out even the J57 or equivalent was a very reliable engine BOAC took them after a large ventral fin was added to the tail underneath and the rudder made substantially larger. I don't know if those mods were made to the KC135. Very soon after than they all got P$W turbofans too, which helped at low speed. J57 equipped KC135 or original 707 at full up weight required a 15,000 ft runway and water injection. Upgrading the engines would definitely reduce the takeoff run, probably by a lot. I wouldn't see that as a problem On Dec 5, 2021, at 12:01 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote: > No longer a factor. All surviving KC135s are reengined from the old J57 > turbojet to more modern fan engines with twice the thrust and 25-40% better > fuel specifics. > A classmate (with much KC time) once opined the better engines would only > force them to take off with more fuel from shorter runways. Back in the J57 > days it was typical to offload fuel before take off on hot days (while > taxiing to the runway). > The basic KC EWO mission was to proceed to the assigned orbit and pass gas > until they themselves flamed out or were recalled. > With care, the KC boom could tow an unpowered fighter, done several times in > SEA. > > On\, December 4, 2021 6:59 PM, Peter Frederick wrote > > Good thing my high end hearing isn't good anyway then! Turbojets scream > something aweful! > > On Dec 4, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote: > >> You ain't heard nuthin 'til you are in the back of a KC135 during a wet >> (J57) takeoff. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Peter Frederick via Mercedes >> Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2021 6:37 PM >> To: Mercedes Discussion List >> Cc: Peter Frederick >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Reboot Your Aircraft >> >> All the low bypass turbojets are noisy. I flew in a British one once, don't >> remember what it was, but it had two Rolls Conways in the back. Very noisy >> engines. >> >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 5:17 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: >> >>> When the family first started with Ambassadair, they were still flying >>> 707s. I flew them a couple times. Noisy as heck as I recall. >>> >>> -D >>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 4:13 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote: The L-1011 was probably the best of that generation, sadly it never sold as well as the DC-10, which was NOT the best of that generation. Beautiful aircraft, and I've heard it was nice to fly as well. > On Dec 4, 2021, at 4:54 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: > > I flew on N194AT and N163AT frequently in the early half of the 1980s as > a member of a “Ambassadair”, later known as “ATA” when it was a private > travel club. One was a -100 variant, the other a -500 model. Both of > these were used for international and long-haul domestic flights as well > as charters. There was a third L-1011 in their fleet but I don’t have > pictures of it. I think it was destroyed in a ground fire in the late 80s. > > My Mom did many, many hours in these as she traveled extensively with > them overseas. They had at least one DC-10 I know she flew in with them > as well, they might have had more, I don’t recall. > > They were wonderful aircraft, and really impressive when you were > standing next to them out on the tarmac. > > -D > >>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 1:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes >>> wrote: >> >> L-1011 was the first "big" jet I ever flew in. Boston to Bermuda. Would >> have been '87 or so. We took a 727 Portland to Boston... >> >> Curt >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> >> On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 2:37 PM, Allan Streib via >> Mercedes wrote: L-1011 was very advanced for >> its time. I believe it was the first commercial airliner with auto-land. >> If the engines hadn't been sole-sourced wirh Rolls Royce they might have >> been more commercially viable. >> >> Sort of wish Lockheed had stayed in the commercial market but the L-1011 >> was their swan song. >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2021, at 2:31 PM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes wrote: >>> Say what you will about the L-1011 or DC-10, you never got the BSOD. >>> >>> Flaming ACTUAL
