Re: [MBZ] Propane tank?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> (it's technically illegal to haul it with more than about 50 gallons, I'd 
> tarp it over if I were driving more than five miles with it)

Sloshing.  Those tanks probably don't have the baffles that mobile tanks have 
to have.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Propane tank?

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-11-18 14:00, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

A bit of a drive but what about this one?


https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/808503580262100/?mibextid=6ojiHh


Looks better than the one I bought 8 years ago for $300 empty and 
thought I got a screaming bargain.
I'd measure the diameter and length and make sure it's a 500 not a 320, 
but it's still worth it even if it is a 320.

I'd be happy if tank price+travel cost were 2/3 of "refurbished".

What's 200 gallons of propane cost in your area?
(it's technically illegal to haul it with more than about 50 gallons, 
I'd tarp it over if I were driving more than five miles with it)


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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I have a 100gal tank I rent from the propane company to run my cooktop. They 
want me to fill it up every year but a tank will last 3yr easily because it 
gets little use. I did manage to run out at some point a few years ago, they 
charged me $100 for a guy to come out and “test” the tank, I don’t think he 
actually did anything but did “approve” it and the truck came out later and 
filled it again. I keep an eye on the gauge now a couple times a year. 

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 7:01 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-11-14 18:52, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote:
>> I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane
>> company will fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if
>> it matters
> 
> Good point.
> An new delivery company expects the system to be under some pressure so they 
> can leak test it and check the regulators.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Motor fuel applications are typically at 7”-11” of water column, or 4-6 ounces. 
Appliances are typically lower than that.

-D

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 7:55 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 19:39:17 -0500 mitch--- via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
>> Standard thing is to have a high pressure reg on the tank, sending
>> about 10 psi through the underground line.
>> 
>> A low pressure reg on the outside of the building takes it down to
>> about 11 inches service pressure to the appliance.
> 
> It all depends. Our "little mobile home on the prairie" had a
> low-pressure regulator on the tank and a 1/2" or 5/8" copper line running
> to the pipe on side of the home.
> 
> 
>> Preset regs usually ship tuned to 10psi and 11inches.
> 
> When I got our homemade propane-fired, Chevette-powered gen set running,
> I changed the system to two regulators, the first at 15 psi. and the
> second at 11" H2O. The demand regulator on the genset was fed from the
> 15 psi. line.
> 
> The fellow at the local propane business got real concerned when Shirley
> told him I had readjusted the second regulator -- until she described the
> process I used (a water-filled U-tube manometer, also homemade).
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 19:39:17 -0500 mitch--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Standard thing is to have a high pressure reg on the tank, sending
> about 10 psi through the underground line.
> 
> A low pressure reg on the outside of the building takes it down to
> about 11 inches service pressure to the appliance.

It all depends. Our "little mobile home on the prairie" had a
low-pressure regulator on the tank and a 1/2" or 5/8" copper line running
to the pipe on side of the home.


> Preset regs usually ship tuned to 10psi and 11inches.

When I got our homemade propane-fired, Chevette-powered gen set running,
I changed the system to two regulators, the first at 15 psi. and the
second at 11" H2O. The demand regulator on the genset was fed from the
15 psi. line.

The fellow at the local propane business got real concerned when Shirley
told him I had readjusted the second regulator -- until she described the
process I used (a water-filled U-tube manometer, also homemade).


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Another reason for this is that if you run low pressure very far you’re going 
to need a fairly large pipe to handle the volume - always an issue in motor 
fuel applications, like generator sets. Probably the number one issue on new 
installations, especially propane (but also natural gas) is the low pressure 
supply line being too small to handle the volume required for full load 
operation.

-D

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 7:39 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-11-14 19:26, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:
>> I need to figure out exactly what all I need to hook it up to the
>> shop. I do know it has to be 10’ away from the nearest building. It
>> has a connection out the wall of the shop. I assume the line needs to
>> be buried from tank to this line. Not sure what size the connection is
>> but looks like a standard gas line fitting.
> 
> Standard thing is to have a high pressure reg on the tank, sending about 10 
> psi through the underground line.
> 
> A low pressure reg on the outside of the building takes it down to about 11 
> inches service pressure to the appliance.
> 
> Preset regs usually ship tuned to 10psi and 11inches.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-11-14 19:26, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

I need to figure out exactly what all I need to hook it up to the
shop. I do know it has to be 10’ away from the nearest building. It
has a connection out the wall of the shop. I assume the line needs to
be buried from tank to this line. Not sure what size the connection is
but looks like a standard gas line fitting.


Standard thing is to have a high pressure reg on the tank, sending about 
10 psi through the underground line.


A low pressure reg on the outside of the building takes it down to about 
11 inches service pressure to the appliance.


Preset regs usually ship tuned to 10psi and 11inches.

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I I wondered about using those 100 or 120lm tanks that are the tall cylinders, 
could take those down in the back of the truck to get them filled on demand. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 6:07 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> You could buy two 80 or 100 pound tanks and have a switchover system so that 
> when one runs low the other one kicks in, this is not uncommon. I’m sure they 
> would fill those on demand.
> 
> They’ll still nail you for an inspection fee up front.
> 
> Funny story - when I had my first top-off I used AmeriGas. Since they had 
> never serviced my tank they required a “safety inspection” to be done. Guess 
> what? They came out and topped off my tank in the morning, and the “safety 
> inspector” came that afternoon! I asked them about this and they just blew me 
> off.
> 
> Jerks.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2022, at 7:00 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2022-11-14 18:52, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote:
>>> I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane
>>> company will fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if
>>> it matters
>> 
>> Good point.
>> An new delivery company expects the system to be under some pressure so they 
>> can leak test it and check the regulators.
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I need to figure out exactly what all I need to hook it up to the shop. I do 
know it has to be 10’ away from the nearest building. It has a connection out 
the wall of the shop. I assume the line needs to be buried from tank to this 
line. Not sure what size the connection is but looks like a standard gas line 
fitting.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 6:01 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-11-14 18:52, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote:
>> I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane
>> company will fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if
>> it matters
> 
> Good point.
> An new delivery company expects the system to be under some pressure so they 
> can leak test it and check the regulators.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

You could buy two 80 or 100 pound tanks and have a switchover system so that 
when one runs low the other one kicks in, this is not uncommon. I’m sure they 
would fill those on demand.

They’ll still nail you for an inspection fee up front.

Funny story - when I had my first top-off I used AmeriGas. Since they had never 
serviced my tank they required a “safety inspection” to be done. Guess what? 
They came out and topped off my tank in the morning, and the “safety inspector” 
came that afternoon! I asked them about this and they just blew me off.

Jerks.

-D

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 7:00 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-11-14 18:52, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote:
>> I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane
>> company will fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if
>> it matters
> 
> Good point.
> An new delivery company expects the system to be under some pressure so they 
> can leak test it and check the regulators.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-11-14 18:52, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote:

I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane
company will fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if
it matters


Good point.
An new delivery company expects the system to be under some pressure so 
they can leak test it and check the regulators.


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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I think an empty tank needs to be pressure tested before a propane company will 
fill it. I don’t know if those big tanks are dated or if it matters 

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Nov 14, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I called around today to get some quotes on getting a propane tank set and 
> filled. I would have to buy a tank since I would not use enough to lease one. 
> Basically looking at around 3k all in. Perhaps I should look for a used tank. 
> Anyone know about what to look for in a used tank to make sure it’s up to 
> code of whatever. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

On 2022-11-14 18:29, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

I called around today to get some quotes on getting a propane tank set
and filled. I would have to buy a tank since I would not use enough to
lease one. Basically looking at around 3k all in. Perhaps I should
look for a used tank. Anyone know about what to look for in a used
tank to make sure it’s up to code of whatever.


They don't rust internally unless they're full of oxygen.
Paint should be maintained to prevent external rust.
The ancient tanks might have four screws on the corners of the gauge, 
both of my tanks are like that.
A lot of guys in the propane biz think the four screw tanks should be 
disposed of, I just figure I'll be OK if I run the tank empty and 
replace the seal under the gauge every 15-20 years. The old tanks are 
thicker/heavier.


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Re: [MBZ] propane

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I guess it makes sense that I've never seen one. I don't know much of anything 
about campers other than there is a key on my keyring (which is in the other 
room or I'd read the number off it) which opens just about every compartment in 
every camper. $3 for 2 on eBay. Real fun at campouts...
-Curt

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021, 9:44:44 PM EST, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 > I've never seen a 30# tank before,

Our newer camper has two of them in it.  My Dad's and my
brother's Airstreams each had two of them, though those were
aluminum not steel.

-- Jim

  
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Re: [MBZ] propane

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I've never seen a 30# tank before,

Our newer camper has two of them in it.  My Dad's and my
brother's Airstreams each had two of them, though those were
aluminum not steel.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] propane

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Lots and lots of different sizes…

https://www.propanetankstore.com/sizes-dot-5-lb-200-lb-tanks/ 


-D

> On Feb 17, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've never seen a 30# tank before, I have seen 40# tanks.
> Are Canadian propane tanks metric? 9kg?
> -Curt
> 
>On Wednesday, February 17, 2021, 6:41:09 PM EST, Randy Bennell via 
> Mercedes  wrote:  
> 
> Something that was not said when you folks were talking about 20#and 
> 100# propane tanks is that there are also 30# tanks - often used on 
> travel trailers.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] propane

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I've never seen a 30# tank before, I have seen 40# tanks.
Are Canadian propane tanks metric? 9kg?
-Curt

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021, 6:41:09 PM EST, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Something that was not said when you folks were talking about 20#and 
100# propane tanks is that there are also 30# tanks - often used on 
travel trailers.


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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

I assume they already have the propane kits installed, as there has 
never been NG at that site?


They're used, and apparently were used where they are now?

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

I've managed to get one wall done in mine beyond the 3/4" Cellite installed 
when it was built in 1974.  Still stays above freezing except when super cold, 
and gets quite warm on sunny days.  

I may live long enough to get it fully insulated and the windows I want to make 
put in so I can see out.
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

My shop is fully insulated 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:41 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah. In an uninsulated okie barn, it would be cheaper heating with dollar 
> bills.
> 
> 
> Rick
> 
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: February 15, 2021 6:43 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: d...@penoff.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Propane
> 
> At least on propane they put out 20,000 BTU more than on natural gas. Those 
> look like the one I had in my three car insulated garage in Wisconsin. If I 
> fired it up full blast it was like a sweat lodge within an hour.
> 
> -D
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Yeah. In an uninsulated okie barn, it would be cheaper heating with dollar 
bills.


Rick

From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: February 15, 2021 6:43 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: d...@penoff.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Propane

At least on propane they put out 20,000 BTU more than on natural gas. Those 
look like the one I had in my three car insulated garage in Wisconsin. If I 
fired it up full blast it was like a sweat lodge within an hour.

-D

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

At least on propane they put out 20,000 BTU more than on natural gas. Those 
look like the one I had in my three car insulated garage in Wisconsin. If I 
fired it up full blast it was like a sweat lodge within an hour.

-D

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 6:57 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It has 2 of them, one in each corner.  I figure I would only run 1 at a time.
> 
> On 2/15/2021 5:44 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
>> Ugh. If you could set that thing up for lp or propane it would blow through 
>> about 7 or 8 pounds of fuel an hour of run time. I could have sworn I 
>> suggested enclosing a smaller space to heat and cool in your pole barn 
>> If not, well there's a suggestion for a project for you.
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Yup, different orifices that will be smaller as propane has a higher BTU 
content than natural gas. The springs are for the demand regulator, as they 
will alter the pressure for operation on propane as well. Just unscrew the 
cover, remove the old spring, pop in the new one, screw the cover back on.

-D

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 6:54 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Correct.  IIRC the orifice size for propane is smaller.  Not long after we 
> moved in I pulled one of them and somebody has welded them closed then 
> drilled them out to the smaller size.  I also ordered a kit to convert it 
> with new orifices and some sort of springs and things for the valve or 
> regulator on the unit. I have not installed them yet.
> 
> On 2/15/2021 5:37 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>> According to that label it's set up for natural gas. You'll need to
>> convert it to run it on propane.
>> 
>> Allan
>> 
>> 
>> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:
>> 
>>> Ventured out across the frozen Okie acres tundra to the shop. Pic attached 
>>> of
>>> the label on the overhead heater (there are 2). Looks like it’s a 144k btu
>>> unit. Will one of those 100lb tanks run one of these? Probably would not run
>>> both at the same time.
>>> [cid]
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

It has 2 of them, one in each corner.  I figure I would only run 1 at a 
time.


On 2/15/2021 5:44 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:

Ugh. If you could set that thing up for lp or propane it would blow through 
about 7 or 8 pounds of fuel an hour of run time. I could have sworn I suggested 
enclosing a smaller space to heat and cool in your pole barn If not, well 
there's a suggestion for a project for you.


Rick

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Correct.  IIRC the orifice size for propane is smaller.  Not long after 
we moved in I pulled one of them and somebody has welded them closed 
then drilled them out to the smaller size.  I also ordered a kit to 
convert it with new orifices and some sort of springs and things for the 
valve or regulator on the unit. I have not installed them yet.


On 2/15/2021 5:37 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

According to that label it's set up for natural gas. You'll need to
convert it to run it on propane.

Allan


Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:


Ventured out across the frozen Okie acres tundra to the shop. Pic attached of
the label on the overhead heater (there are 2). Looks like it’s a 144k btu
unit. Will one of those 100lb tanks run one of these? Probably would not run
both at the same time.
[cid]

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Ugh. If you could set that thing up for lp or propane it would blow through 
about 7 or 8 pounds of fuel an hour of run time. I could have sworn I suggested 
enclosing a smaller space to heat and cool in your pole barn If not, well 
there's a suggestion for a project for you.


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] Propane

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

According to that label it's set up for natural gas. You'll need to
convert it to run it on propane.

Allan


Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:

> Ventured out across the frozen Okie acres tundra to the shop. Pic attached of
> the label on the overhead heater (there are 2). Looks like it’s a 144k btu
> unit. Will one of those 100lb tanks run one of these? Probably would not run
> both at the same time.
> [cid]
>
> Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] Propane cost [was: Re: OT: Heat Pump Demand Defrost?]

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On January 16, 2019 at 8:31 PM Craig via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> When did it go down?
> 
> My landlord filled his 1000 gallon tank on 16 October and the cost was
> $1.99/gallon. I, of course, am paying that as I use it.

When I bought my house in 2012 I think I paid $1.79 introductory special. 
Highest I can remember was 2.099 but I didn't buy any over $2.

In the fall of 2015 I paid $0.999 when I bought my own tank, would have been 
$1.199 in their tank. 
That was as low as it got. In the winter of 2016 I bought 87 octane gas for 
1.26.
Then it went back up a bit. 

Some prices from my new, usually cheaper supplier:
10-25-17 1.499 company tank, 1.399 my tank, 1.299 for 500+ gallons in one 
delivery to my tank. 
5-17-18 1.649, 1.549, 1.449.
6-14-18 1.499, 1.399, 1.299.
7-3-18 1.399, 1.299, 1.199. Price stayed there through at least September. I 
filled tanks in September, paid 1.159 with 4 cents cash discount. I should call 
them and ask for prices once a month just to keep track.

I often hear that people in other states pay a lot more than I do. 
And locally, some big companies like Suburban and Ferrell charge a lot more 
than I'd want to pay. 
A buddy of mine finally fired Suburban last fall after getting tired of the 
price gouging. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

>
> I thought Jim had said his server crashed and he had lost all it's data.


Half right.  The original site went down, but I lost _nothing_.  The site
was mastered elsewhere, and there were multiple backups.  (Which is good,
since that hosting machine went down, too.)

Google suggests that some camping stove fuel is isobutane.


High-altitude camp fuel is isobutane, not butane.  It's much colder 'up
there'.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 17:04:30 -0400 Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
 wrote:

> OMG he’s using ISOMERS 
> 
> I mean you know like this has to really scary

Acck!

:-)


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On August 29, 2018 at 5:06 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Google suggests that some camping stove fuel is isobutane.

Because nothing is more annoying than being unable to heat food in cold 
weather, and if you've ever tried to use a butane lighter that wasn't stored in 
a warm pocket when it's cold outside you'll know butane is useless at A/C 
evaporator temps. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:57:16 -0600 Craig via Mercedes
 wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutane
> 
> Isobutane is obtained by isomerization of butane.
> 
> Alkanes
> 
> Skeletal isomerization is not normally encountered in the laboratory,
> but is the basis of large applications in refineries. In general
> straight-chain alkanes, are converted to branched isomers by heating
> in the presence of a platinum or acid catalyst. Examples include
> isomerisation of n-butane to isobutane and pentane to isopentane.
> Fuels with high branching are favored internal combustion engines.[3] 

Further down the page:


Miscellaneous uses

Isobutane is also used as a propellant for aerosol cans and foam products.

Isobutane is used as part of blended fuels, especially common in fuel
canisters used for camping.[8]

Refrigerant

Isobutane is used as a refrigerant.[9] The use in refrigerators started
in 1993 when Greenpeace presented the Greenfreeze project with the German
company Foron.[10] In this regard, blends of pure, dry "isobutane"
(R-600a) (that is, isobutane mixtures) have negligible ozone depletion
potential and very low global warming potential (having a value of 3.3
times the GWP of carbon dioxide) and can serve as a functional
replacement for R-12, R-22, R-134a, and other chlorofluorocarbon or
hydrofluorocarbon refrigerants in conventional stationary refrigeration
and air conditioning systems.

As a refrigerant, isobutane poses an explosion risk in addition to the
hazards associated with non-flammable CFC refrigerants. Substitution of
this refrigerant for motor vehicle air conditioning systems not
originally designed for isobutane is widely prohibited or discouraged.[11]
[12][13][14][15][16][17]

Vendors and advocates of hydrocarbon refrigerants argue against such bans
on the grounds that there have been very few such incidents relative to
the number of vehicle air conditioning systems filled with hydrocarbons.
[18][19] 

[The references are on the page linked above and are informative.]


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Google suggests that some camping stove fuel is isobutane.

RB

On 29/08/2018 3:57 PM, Craig via Mercedes wrote:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:01:06 -0500 fmiser via Mercedes
 wrote:


Gerry wrote:

Isn't there an "R" number for the propane/isobutane mixture?

Jim wrote:

Not for the mix, so far as I know.  But propane is R290, and
isobutane is R600A.

Gerry wrote:
On a related topic, Walmart has large cans of propane/butane mix
for $10.00.

Ah.  Butane is not the same is isobutane.


https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-butane-and-vs-isobutane/

• Isobutane is a structural isomer of butane.

• Butane is unbranched, and isobutane is branched.

• Both have the same molecular formula, but the structural formula is
  different.

• Butane has four carbon atoms in the straight chain, whereas isobutane
  has only three carbon atoms in the straight chain.

• Physical properties of butane and isobutane are different. For
  example, they have different melting points, boiling points, density,
  etc.

 • Pure isobutane is mainly used as a refrigerant


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutane

Isobutane is obtained by isomerization of butane.

Alkanes

Skeletal isomerization is not normally encountered in the laboratory,
but is the basis of large applications in refineries. In general
straight-chain alkanes, are converted to branched isomers by heating
in the presence of a platinum or acid catalyst. Examples include
isomerisation of n-butane to isobutane and pentane to isopentane.
Fuels with high branching are favored internal combustion engines.[3]

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

OMG he’s using ISOMERS 

I mean you know like this has to really scary

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Aug 29, 2018, at 4:57 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:01:06 -0500 fmiser via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
> Gerry wrote:
> 
> Isn't there an "R" number for the propane/isobutane mixture?
>> 
 Jim wrote:
 
 Not for the mix, so far as I know.  But propane is R290, and
 isobutane is R600A.
>> 
>>> Gerry wrote:
>>> On a related topic, Walmart has large cans of propane/butane mix
>>> for $10.00. 
>> 
>> Ah.  Butane is not the same is isobutane.
> 
> 
> https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-butane-and-vs-isobutane/
> 
>   • Isobutane is a structural isomer of butane.
> 
>   • Butane is unbranched, and isobutane is branched.
> 
>   • Both have the same molecular formula, but the structural formula is
> different.
> 
>   • Butane has four carbon atoms in the straight chain, whereas isobutane
> has only three carbon atoms in the straight chain.
> 
>   • Physical properties of butane and isobutane are different. For
> example, they have different melting points, boiling points, density,
> etc.
> 
>• Pure isobutane is mainly used as a refrigerant
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutane
> 
> Isobutane is obtained by isomerization of butane.
> 
> Alkanes
> 
> Skeletal isomerization is not normally encountered in the laboratory,
> but is the basis of large applications in refineries. In general
> straight-chain alkanes, are converted to branched isomers by heating
> in the presence of a platinum or acid catalyst. Examples include
> isomerisation of n-butane to isobutane and pentane to isopentane.
> Fuels with high branching are favored internal combustion engines.[3] 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:01:06 -0500 fmiser via Mercedes
 wrote:

> > > > Gerry wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Isn't there an "R" number for the propane/isobutane mixture?
> 
> > > Jim wrote:
> > > 
> > > Not for the mix, so far as I know.  But propane is R290, and
> > > isobutane is R600A.
> 
> > Gerry wrote:
> > On a related topic, Walmart has large cans of propane/butane mix
> > for $10.00. 
> 
> Ah.  Butane is not the same is isobutane.


https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-butane-and-vs-isobutane/

   • Isobutane is a structural isomer of butane.

   • Butane is unbranched, and isobutane is branched.

   • Both have the same molecular formula, but the structural formula is
 different.

   • Butane has four carbon atoms in the straight chain, whereas isobutane
 has only three carbon atoms in the straight chain.

   • Physical properties of butane and isobutane are different. For
 example, they have different melting points, boiling points, density,
 etc.

• Pure isobutane is mainly used as a refrigerant


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutane

Isobutane is obtained by isomerization of butane.

Alkanes

Skeletal isomerization is not normally encountered in the laboratory,
but is the basis of large applications in refineries. In general
straight-chain alkanes, are converted to branched isomers by heating
in the presence of a platinum or acid catalyst. Examples include
isomerisation of n-butane to isobutane and pentane to isopentane.
Fuels with high branching are favored internal combustion engines.[3] 

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> > > Gerry wrote:
> > >
> > > Isn't there an "R" number for the propane/isobutane mixture?

> > Jim wrote:
> > 
> > Not for the mix, so far as I know.  But propane is R290, and
> > isobutane is R600A.

> Gerry wrote:
> On a related topic, Walmart has large cans of propane/butane mix
> for $10.00. 

Ah.  Butane is not the same is isobutane.

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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Oh, right, thanks. I thought Jim had said his server crashed and he had lost 
all it's data. This must have been the one I remembered. I'll have to check the 
can I bought to see if it is isobutane.


Meade Dillon wrote:

> Gerry, from Jim's Chicken Wagon blog here:
> http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/cwair.html
> 
> " The next step is to try it out. I fully charge the system, using a mix of
> Isobutane (R600a) and Propane (R290). This mix (70% Isobutane, 30% Propane)
> is usually available at sporting goods stores as high-altitude campstove
> fuel. An 8-oz (12-oz by weight) can will run $4–5, you only need one. You
> want Isobutane (R600a), not Butane (R600), because Butane has a too-high
> boiling point. It's possible for your compressor to ingest liquid if you
> use it instead of Isobutane, which can damage its reed valves. Lots of
> Butane/Propane mix is available out there, so beware.
> 
> One of the pitfalls of converting an A/C system away from R12 is that there
> are a number of things that are dialed in for R12's exact characteristics.
> If you use a refrigerant with a different temperature/pressure curve, the
> system ends up operating inefficiently. One of the beauties of this
> hydrocarbon blend is that you can get a very close match to R12's curve.
> The system then operates well.
> 
> A usable charge of this hydrocarbon blend is less than 50% of an R12
> charge. In part this is because hydrocarbons are more efficient
> refrigerants than hydrochlorofluorocarbons. Also, most R12 systems are
> actually overcharged to accommodate slow leaks. If you're doing your own
> servicing, a lesser charge is acceptable, because it's pretty easy to
> re-do. And, having a lesser charge reduces the fire risk in case of a
> sudden large leak.
> 
> What I find works is to feed in one can of the 70/30 mix, and then augment
> this with straight Propane until the temperatures and pressures are right.
> (With the system set for maximum cooling, and the engine at 2000 RPM.) What
> I do is to monitor the temperature of the pipe next to the high-side
> fitting using an infrared thermometer. As you slowly leak in Propane, you
> watch the R12 *temperature* scale on the high-side gauge and the actual
> temperature of the fitting. When they are close to each other ipso facto
> you are done. (This seems to be at around the 1/3–1/2 of a propane torch
> bottle on the cars I've done this on.) You also watch the absolute
> high-side pressure to ensure it's not too high, and you watch the low-side
> pressure to make sure it's still in the 20–30 PSI range. You have to make
> changes slowly enough to let temperatures and pressures reach equilibrium
> so that you get accurate readings."
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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-- 
arche...@embarqmail.com 

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

I find I don't bother with fitting temperatures anymore.  I just put in one
can of mix, and add propane (less than a cylinder's worth) until the system
is working well, while keeping an eye on the pressures to make sure I don't
go too far.

-- Jim

>
>
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Re: [MBZ] PROPANE/BUTANE MIX. was: White Whale Plan of Attack: Weak AC

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Gerry, from Jim's Chicken Wagon blog here:
http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/cwair.html

" The next step is to try it out. I fully charge the system, using a mix of
Isobutane (R600a) and Propane (R290). This mix (70% Isobutane, 30% Propane)
is usually available at sporting goods stores as high-altitude campstove
fuel. An 8-oz (12-oz by weight) can will run $4–5, you only need one. You
want Isobutane (R600a), not Butane (R600), because Butane has a too-high
boiling point. It's possible for your compressor to ingest liquid if you
use it instead of Isobutane, which can damage its reed valves. Lots of
Butane/Propane mix is available out there, so beware.

One of the pitfalls of converting an A/C system away from R12 is that there
are a number of things that are dialed in for R12's exact characteristics.
If you use a refrigerant with a different temperature/pressure curve, the
system ends up operating inefficiently. One of the beauties of this
hydrocarbon blend is that you can get a very close match to R12's curve.
The system then operates well.

A usable charge of this hydrocarbon blend is less than 50% of an R12
charge. In part this is because hydrocarbons are more efficient
refrigerants than hydrochlorofluorocarbons. Also, most R12 systems are
actually overcharged to accommodate slow leaks. If you're doing your own
servicing, a lesser charge is acceptable, because it's pretty easy to
re-do. And, having a lesser charge reduces the fire risk in case of a
sudden large leak.

What I find works is to feed in one can of the 70/30 mix, and then augment
this with straight Propane until the temperatures and pressures are right.
(With the system set for maximum cooling, and the engine at 2000 RPM.) What
I do is to monitor the temperature of the pipe next to the high-side
fitting using an infrared thermometer. As you slowly leak in Propane, you
watch the R12 *temperature* scale on the high-side gauge and the actual
temperature of the fitting. When they are close to each other ipso facto
you are done. (This seems to be at around the 1/3–1/2 of a propane torch
bottle on the cars I've done this on.) You also watch the absolute
high-side pressure to ensure it's not too high, and you watch the low-side
pressure to make sure it's still in the 20–30 PSI range. You have to make
changes slowly enough to let temperatures and pressures reach equilibrium
so that you get accurate readings."
-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Sounds like a business opportunity, use your tractor and trailer to start 
moving tanks...
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On January 10, 2016 5:54:36 PM EST, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" 
 wrote:
>There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for sale on Tulsa
>craigslist, but tons in OKC. Geez
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On January 10, 2016 at 5:54 PM "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for sale on Tulsa craigslist,
> but tons in OKC. Geez



How far is this one?

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/app/5387128438.html

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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Are you looking for a used one?  Have you checked around for new ones from 
local suppliers?  Most of them deliver.

These guys are in Tulsa:

http://www.laferryspropane.com/equipmentforsale.asp


Dan


> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for sale on Tulsa 
> craigslist, but tons in OKC. Geez
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I have found some being sold by dealers but was looking for a cheap one. I may 
end up just getting one from a dealer so hopefully it will be good.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:02 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Are you looking for a used one?  Have you checked around for new ones from 
> local suppliers?  Most of them deliver.
> 
> These guys are in Tulsa:
> 
> http://www.laferryspropane.com/equipmentforsale.asp
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for sale on Tulsa 
>> craigslist, but tons in OKC. Geez
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

They will also give you a guarantee with a cert that might make the suppliers 
fill it without trying to rape you for an “inspection”.

Dan

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have found some being sold by dealers but was looking for a cheap one. I 
> may end up just getting one from a dealer so hopefully it will be good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Kaleb whines: There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for 
sale on Tulsa craigslist, but tons in OKC. Geez


Sent from my iPhone


You have a peecup and a trailer.  Go get em

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Re: [MBZ] Propane tanks

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

About 2.5 hours away

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:58 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On January 10, 2016 at 5:54 PM "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> There are almost no 200-500 gallon propane tanks for sale on Tulsa 
>> craigslist,
>> but tons in OKC. Geez
> 
> 
> 
> How far is this one?
> 
> http://tulsa.craigslist.org/app/5387128438.html
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Propane generator - Poos or Cathey?

[Jim Cathey]

My parent's two year old single cylinder Generac backup genny was not 
happy during its weekly exercise today. Sounded to me like it was 
blubbering rich. Low and irregular rpm, accompanied by a smell of 
propane when I opened the lid on the housing. Any bright ideas? I'll 
start by taking a look at the air filter and the oil level, but I 
doubt it can be that simple.


I'd be looking for leaks.  Any rubber in the fuel system?
Gaskets?

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] Propane generator - Poos or Cathey?

[LWB250]

Sounds like a bad or failed secondary gas regulator.  Look for a vent on the 
regulator and see if you can tell if there is gas coming from it when you try 
to start it.

E-mail me off list with the model and serial number and I can be more specific.

Dan


--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote:

 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net
 Subject: [MBZ] Propane generator - Poos or Cathey?
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 2:19 PM
 My parent's two year old single
 cylinder Generac backup genny was not happy during its
 weekly exercise today. Sounded to me like it was blubbering
 rich. Low and irregular rpm, accompanied by a smell of
 propane when I opened the lid on the housing. Any bright
 ideas? I'll start by taking a look at the air filter and the
 oil level, but I doubt it can be that simple.
 Mitch.
 
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