Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Thx for that Pete - we so often hear about the ugly side of business ownership/management it's great to hear how some sacrifice for the business their employees - Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: pm7...@comcast.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I work at a small foundry, we are suffering about a 30% reduction in work load, margins have been pushed down to single digits. We are very much is same boat as most of the country, no one is going to bail us out, we have to row our own boat. Managers have been told there is a spending freeze, use both side of the toilet paper! NO bonus of, raises, hiring etc. I got a check today that will about pay for our famlies 20 person Christmas dinner. I was very appreciative as I know the owner took it out his own pocket, this after he sold all the company cars leaving himself to drive our POS minivan. Pete ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Barry wrote cut down the number of techs and just heaped on more work on the remaining folks This kind of crap has been going on for a long time - I used to hope it would catch up with them but they keep doing it without detrimental results - at least not so the shareholders notice. When I was laid off in 1999 they gave me 2 weeks notice so I could train a guy who had never seen the software I used - which came with a 1 week training course at the software manufacturer - but I was supposed to train this gut without a background in what I did in 1 weeks? I gave it a try but when I left he was clueless - they probably ended up bringing someone in from corporate - but I was in my 50s, and was highly paid - even though I got a 20% bump when I found my next job ;-) But I would have stayed where I was forever cause I loved it there - but that wasn't an option. 6 months later I left on full disability - One of the managers where I worked once had a target to get 10% improvement in his groups work so he required everyone stay 20 min later in the afternoon for free (they were salaried) presto! he got an extra 20%+ work from the same people without extra cost. Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: barry Stark barryst...@roadrunner.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I have to agree with Loren. I work in Aerospace, used to be TRW but we were acquired by Northrop Grumman. Our IT guys are the best but now they have all been transferred to our IT sector. This sector treats them poorly and has taken away benefits. They cut down the number of techs and just heaped on more work on the remaining folks. When they have a rollout of some software upgrade or the like service suffers greatly but I guess the heads of the IT sector are getting their bonuses for saving all the money. I just don't understand where they figure the savings are when it makes for so much lost time for the folks that IT supports. Just two weeks ago they gave many of them an option of 20% pay cut or the door. Sucks! Barry Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I work at a small foundry, we are suffering about a 30% reduction in work load, margins have been pushed down to single digits. We are very much is same boat as most of the country, no one is going to bail us out, we have to row our own boat. Managers have been told there is a spending freeze, use both side of the toilet paper! NO bonus of, raises, hiring etc. I got a check today that will about pay for our famlies 20 person Christmas dinner. I was very appreciative as I know the owner took it out his own pocket, this after he sold all the company cars leaving himself to drive our POS minivan. Pete ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I think we are at the end of another one of those business cycles were unreasonable expectations have become irrational and we are being forcibly re-adjusted to reality. Single digit profit margins are pretty much normal in usual business, not double or triple, but these days everyone expects to make 30% on investments. Small business owners expect not to make a decent living, but to live like the wealthy. Quite against Federal workplace law, people assume that salaried employees (that is, employees exempted from the hourly employee laws) can be simply appointed to that category by putting them on salary and that those employees can then be worked infinite hours without compensation, neither of which is true. To be exempted from the hourly wage laws, you must first have fiduciary responsibility (that is, you MUST be able to write purchase orders, hire and fire on your own authority, and sign contracts) AND you must be compensated in a tangible way for work over 8 hours per day/40 hours per week. This can be bonuses, promotions, comp time, etc, but if these things do NOT add up to half your hourly compensation per hour worked, you are to be paid the difference. I've known of a few cases where people collected rather startling compensation checks after being put on salary, recording their overtime, asking for it, being denied, and then going to the Labor Relations Board. You also have to sign an exemption statement agreeing to the conditions of the exemption, the employer cannot impose exempt status. We are in for quite an adjustment, I think. Peter On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:42 AM, LarryT wrote: Barry wrote cut down the number of techs and just heaped on more work on the remaining folks This kind of crap has been going on for a long time - I used to hope it would catch up with them but they keep doing it without detrimental results - at least not so the shareholders notice. When I was laid off in 1999 they gave me 2 weeks notice so I could train a guy who had never seen the software I used - which came with a 1 week training course at the software manufacturer - but I was supposed to train this gut without a background in what I did in 1 weeks? I gave it a try but when I left he was clueless - they probably ended up bringing someone in from corporate - but I was in my 50s, and was highly paid - even though I got a 20% bump when I found my next job ;-) But I would have stayed where I was forever cause I loved it there - but that wasn't an option. 6 months later I left on full disability - One of the managers where I worked once had a target to get 10% improvement in his groups work so he required everyone stay 20 min later in the afternoon for free (they were salaried) presto! he got an extra 20%+ work from the same people without extra cost. Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: barry Stark barryst...@roadrunner.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I have to agree with Loren. I work in Aerospace, used to be TRW but we were acquired by Northrop Grumman. Our IT guys are the best but now they have all been transferred to our IT sector. This sector treats them poorly and has taken away benefits. They cut down the number of techs and just heaped on more work on the remaining folks. When they have a rollout of some software upgrade or the like service suffers greatly but I guess the heads of the IT sector are getting their bonuses for saving all the money. I just don't understand where they figure the savings are when it makes for so much lost time for the folks that IT supports. Just two weeks ago they gave many of them an option of 20% pay cut or the door. Sucks! Barry Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
LWB wrote the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom Possibly, but it seems the areas where windmills can be productive are pretty limited - coastal areas mostly - and while that's where the population is that's also where land is at a premium - making space for windmill farms will be an uphill battle. But we'll see how inventive we can be! Check out the map showing available wind at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm#Wind_speed much of the SE SW US will not support windmills - unfortnately the map doesn't show available offshore wind - Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. For example: 10 years ago the tower people were few and far between. Those that were in the business were very well paid and respected. As the cell phone business expanded, and everybody and their brother started getting into site development, they started hiring minimum wagers to do tower monkey work, as it's now known. The guys who were truly experts in their field and very well compensated saw their jobs and livelihoods go away to cheap labor, This is even better represented by the number of injuries and deaths in the business - I think either Verizon or ATT suspended all tower operations earlier this year because of the huge increase in deaths that had taken place just this year. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 2:25 PM Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. even children learn if they see their parents get burned on a hot stove. Dumbsizing is still dumb. Nobody wants to call dell or M$ tech support cause all you get is someone in india who can't help with the problem. In the case if M$ it takes 2 days and you pay $200 to find out they can't/won't help Plus, all the career counselors told kids to stay away from IT because of the way IT folk were treated from 2000 to 2005. There is one way to attract plenty of applicants to any job. Offer pay that is better than other opportunities. That is what the windmill tower folks are doing now. You have to climb, freeze your butt off and travel to bumf*** ND, NE or whereever, but because the pay is good, people will do it. Companies who want to find good IT people can pay more or guarantee they won't lay off the it folks and outsource. At 11:32 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Wilton wrote called me Brain Nowadays - no kid wants to be labelled as being smart - sadly. And to black kids - they see someone trying to learn and are called being white. When learning or being intelligent is seen as negative, there's something drasticaly wrong - I suspect your ethics that resulted from life in the depression was something many who endured that time developed. Unfortunately 2 generations later and all that was taught in those hard times was forgotten or is not believed by young people today. The thought of jobs being sent overseas (which can be devastating) causes a lot of problems - but at least there *are* other jobs - in the depression if you lost a job in most cases there was *nothing* else to go to. Now, at least you can almost always go to McDonalds - it;s not a $80k mid management job but at least it;s something. In the depression the auto makers used gasoline to wash the cars prior to painting - every once in a while (usually every couple of weeks) a spark would ignite the worker - but the next day there was a line around the block applying for the position! *That* was desperation. Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: Wilton Strickland wilt...@nc.rr.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I grew up poor. We were tenant farmers in Eastern NC. 'Hardly had a pot to pee in. In 1938, Daddy was trying to buy a 300 acre farm in Wake Co., NC; total price for the farm was $5k; 'couldn't make the $500 payment for that year; 'lost the farm and all our machinery and horses; 'went back to tenant farming. I knew we didn't have much in the way of money, material things, etc., but Mamma always put three full meals on the table EVERY day. I reflect on it now a wonder how she ever did it. Considering what we had, she worked a miracle every day. My mom and dad gave me something worth far more than material things, though; they gave me a strong sense of integrity (the ability to do what is right when nobody else is watching), tenacity, persistence, and perseverance. It's amazing what these characteristics can overcome. As a child, I never felt REALLY poor; I had good health, a good mind and a positive attitude about getting ahead. I knew that I could do ANYTHING as well as anybody and better than many. In about the fifth grade I realized that the key to a better life was education, and I never missed another day of school after that. In high school I was always at the top of the class; some of my classmates called me Brain, but that wasn't it at all; many times I stayed up all night getting my homework done and went to school the next day without going to bed, but the homework was done - that's why I knew the answers - not that I was a brain. I always tried to be a gentleman, though; 'finally told a coupla these friends several months ago how hard I had worked to be prepared in class - 'they could not believe it - they still thought I was the class brain. So being poor can work to hold someone back if one LETS it. In MY case it made me more determined to succeed. Too many parents, though, don't seem to care about what their children are doing in school. I MAY have turned out to be REAL arrogant SOB if I'd been a rich boy. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I must disagree (no one chooses to be poor) in the sense that lots of Americans would rather be poor than do the study and work required to be more successful. Poor Americans (who have cars and shelter and who are entitled to Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) are rich compared to most of the people in this world; so poor is relative. I'd cite my own step children as examples. They all started college, only one finished. They all are unemployed a lot and they work at entry-level jobs when they do work. They are in their 40s and 50s now so change would be hard with that track record. If anything, there is not enough repression to motivate folks to do better. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:35 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
The only way the US will become competitive again is when the 3rd world cost of production increases to the point where shipping the products 1/2 way around the world makes the prices go up. Once it makes financial sense to build here and avoid the shipping cost, American manufacturng will rise again. But the unions may have to make some concessions if they want it to happen while they still have some members. Right now there's a bill in congress that will eleminate secret ballots when voting to bring in a union or not as well as to eleminate Right to Work. (Right to work is when a state does not alow unions to collect dues as a condition of working) As with shipping IT jobs overseas - as the people doing the work see the money their efforts earn, they'll demand more of a share. It's all about the cost of getting the product to the consumer - Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism Look at this as a product comparison: American IT vs Outsource IT. Why does the consumer choose the Outsource product? How can the American product become more competitive or superior? -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:33 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
CCNAs were a dime a dozen. I am not sure about now. The market may be better. Cisco is a good route IF you love command line stuff and have a good memory for commands and all the switches and then go on for the higher cisco certifications. If you prefer to work with GUI interfaces, then Cisco is not your best route. My $.02 You have gotta love the OSI model to be good at Cisco. At 09:49 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: He should go to a Cisco academy. According to the one I worked with (part of our adult ed program) that was pretty much an open checkbook if you graduated. I don't know it that's still the case, but I have to believe there is some creedence to it. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 9:19 PM Kaleb, if you decide to, let me know. I spent the last 8 years or so teaching networking, and I think you have the aptitude for it (attention to detail, and ability to live with chaos) I have a lot of leftover stuff. At 05:48 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: maybe i should take some classes for that OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 89 300E, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D x2, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:00:42 -0500 LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net wrote: LWB wrote the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom Possibly, but it seems the areas where windmills can be productive are pretty limited - coastal areas mostly Actually, there is a lot of area mid-continent that has economically very viable wind resources. I have a map somewhere of wind resources, but I don't have the time to look it up now. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
thanks, will do Loren Faeth wrote: Kaleb, if you decide to, let me know. I spent the last 8 years or so teaching networking, and I think you have the aptitude for it (attention to detail, and ability to live with chaos) I have a lot of leftover stuff. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 89 300E, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D x2, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
What's the alternative to Cisco? I used to do a fair amount of work with 3Com, but little or none with Cisco, so I don't have a point of reference. Just curious... Dan --- On Sun, 12/21/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 10:40 AM CCNAs were a dime a dozen. I am not sure about now. The market may be better. Cisco is a good route IF you love command line stuff and have a good memory for commands and all the switches and then go on for the higher cisco certifications. If you prefer to work with GUI interfaces, then Cisco is not your best route. My $.02 You have gotta love the OSI model to be good at Cisco. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
My parents never got any help from any government agency - no welfare, no food stamps, no social security payment, no church hand-outs, etc. We made things better for ourselves the old-fashioned way - we WORKED for it and STUDIED for it. I was lucky enough, of course, to have been born to Caucasian (no repression because of race) parents who taught us self-sufficiency and self-reliance. We raise a lot of our own food, and Mamma canned a lot - I even helped her make soap and hominy. BTW, as for government help, yes, I DID go to public, state/county-supported school and a state-supported university. Wilton - Original Message - From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism Wilton wrote called me Brain Nowadays - no kid wants to be labelled as being smart - sadly. And to black kids - they see someone trying to learn and are called being white. When learning or being intelligent is seen as negative, there's something drasticaly wrong - I suspect your ethics that resulted from life in the depression was something many who endured that time developed. Unfortunately 2 generations later and all that was taught in those hard times was forgotten or is not believed by young people today. The thought of jobs being sent overseas (which can be devastating) causes a lot of problems - but at least there *are* other jobs - in the depression if you lost a job in most cases there was *nothing* else to go to. Now, at least you can almost always go to McDonalds - it;s not a $80k mid management job but at least it;s something. In the depression the auto makers used gasoline to wash the cars prior to painting - every once in a while (usually every couple of weeks) a spark would ignite the worker - but the next day there was a line around the block applying for the position! *That* was desperation. Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: Wilton Strickland wilt...@nc.rr.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I grew up poor. We were tenant farmers in Eastern NC. 'Hardly had a pot to pee in. In 1938, Daddy was trying to buy a 300 acre farm in Wake Co., NC; total price for the farm was $5k; 'couldn't make the $500 payment for that year; 'lost the farm and all our machinery and horses; 'went back to tenant farming. I knew we didn't have much in the way of money, material things, etc., but Mamma always put three full meals on the table EVERY day. I reflect on it now a wonder how she ever did it. Considering what we had, she worked a miracle every day. My mom and dad gave me something worth far more than material things, though; they gave me a strong sense of integrity (the ability to do what is right when nobody else is watching), tenacity, persistence, and perseverance. It's amazing what these characteristics can overcome. As a child, I never felt REALLY poor; I had good health, a good mind and a positive attitude about getting ahead. I knew that I could do ANYTHING as well as anybody and better than many. In about the fifth grade I realized that the key to a better life was education, and I never missed another day of school after that. In high school I was always at the top of the class; some of my classmates called me Brain, but that wasn't it at all; many times I stayed up all night getting my homework done and went to school the next day without going to bed, but the homework was done - that's why I knew the answers - not that I was a brain. I always tried to be a gentleman, though; 'finally told a coupla these friends several months ago how hard I had worked to be prepared in class - 'they could not believe it - they still thought I was the class brain. So being poor can work to hold someone back if one LETS it. In MY case it made me more determined to succeed. Too many parents, though, don't seem to care about what their children are doing in school. I MAY have turned out to be REAL arrogant SOB if I'd been a rich boy. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I must disagree (no one chooses to be poor) in the sense that lots of Americans would rather be poor than do the study and work required to be more successful. Poor Americans (who have cars and shelter and who are entitled to Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) are rich compared to most of the people in this world; so poor is relative. I'd cite my own step
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
In the certification world the routing/switching cert of choice is Cisco. Other vendors have training but the certs are not highly recognized. In the Server world, it is M$, then probably Red Hat. Novell is pretty much out of the picture, and the Apple certs never really took off. M$ certs are of little value moving forward, as they have done away with the highly recognizable MCSE and MCSD certs and replaced them with a plethora of mini-certifications which have no market value, at least in this part of the country. At 10:47 AM 12/21/2008, you wrote: What's the alternative to Cisco? I used to do a fair amount of work with 3Com, but little or none with Cisco, so I don't have a point of reference. Just curious... Dan --- On Sun, 12/21/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 10:40 AM CCNAs were a dime a dozen. I am not sure about now. The market may be better. Cisco is a good route IF you love command line stuff and have a good memory for commands and all the switches and then go on for the higher cisco certifications. If you prefer to work with GUI interfaces, then Cisco is not your best route. My $.02 You have gotta love the OSI model to be good at Cisco. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Back home they've built the Mars Hill wind project http://www.marshillwind.com/mars_hill/ A bunch of idiots built houses on the hill after the built the first roads in for tower construction now they're complaining about the noise of the turbines. Gee whiz build a house under the wind turbines and you can hear them, go figure... Then do a Google on Cape Wind. Rich bastards on the cape are worried the wind turbines will disturb their view. -Curt Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:52:38 -0500 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: m1wsdujw7d@cs.indiana.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com writes: I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. On another note, around here there was always controversy and protest whenever a cell tower was going up. People thought they were ugly, farmers said the warning strobes frightened their livestock at night, etc. Wonder if the same will happen if windmill start sprouting up everywhere. Or maybe since it's more PC they will be accepted, even welcomed? Allan -- 1983 300D -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/2d500665/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
There are several wind turbine farms on western OK - and more planned for 2009. There are miles of them along I-40 just this side of the TX border. On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Back home they've built the Mars Hill wind project http://www.marshillwind.com/mars_hill/ A bunch of idiots built houses on the hill after the built the first roads in for tower construction now they're complaining about the noise of the turbines. Gee whiz build a house under the wind turbines and you can hear them, go figure... Then do a Google on Cape Wind. Rich bastards on the cape are worried the wind turbines will disturb their view. -Curt -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games. - Ernest Hemingway '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ''97 Ply Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Cisco is it now. 3Com is very 1999. ;) CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Administrator) is actually a fairly demanding certification, at least in comparison to MCSE... CCNP (Cisco Certified Network Professional) is the next step and is worth having as there are tons of CCNAs out there. Theres also stacks of other certifications. In fact now that I think of it maybe I should get working on my certifications so I can teach 'em... -Curt Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 47724.28062...@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 What's the alternative to Cisco? I used to do a fair amount of work with 3Com, but little or none with Cisco, so I don't have a point of reference. Just curious... Dan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/fe0bbf07/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Curt Raymond wrote: Back home they've built the Mars Hill wind project http://www.marshillwind.com/mars_hill/ A bunch of idiots built houses on the hill after the built the first roads in for tower construction now they're complaining about the noise of the turbines. I found a forum topic on that: http://www.city-data.com/forum/maine/50917-wind-turbine-noise-problem-mars-hill.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Actually there is a movement afoot to allow placement of small windmills in suburban lots. Allows you to power your home, sort of. They are 32' tall and not really loud. Just ugly. Might get some traction under that Change Candidate. clay On Dec 21, 2008, at 4:00 AM, LarryT wrote: LWB wrote the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom Possibly, but it seems the areas where windmills can be productive are pretty limited - coastal areas mostly - and while that's where the population is that's also where land is at a premium - making space for windmill farms will be an uphill battle. But we'll see how inventive we can be! Check out the map showing available wind at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm#Wind_speed much of the SE SW US will not support windmills - unfortnately the map doesn't show available offshore wind - Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. For example: 10 years ago the tower people were few and far between. Those that were in the business were very well paid and respected. As the cell phone business expanded, and everybody and their brother started getting into site development, they started hiring minimum wagers to do tower monkey work, as it's now known. The guys who were truly experts in their field and very well compensated saw their jobs and livelihoods go away to cheap labor, This is even better represented by the number of injuries and deaths in the business - I think either Verizon or ATT suspended all tower operations earlier this year because of the huge increase in deaths that had taken place just this year. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 2:25 PM Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. even children learn if they see their parents get burned on a hot stove. Dumbsizing is still dumb. Nobody wants to call dell or M$ tech support cause all you get is someone in india who can't help with the problem. In the case if M$ it takes 2 days and you pay $200 to find out they can't/won't help Plus, all the career counselors told kids to stay away from IT because of the way IT folk were treated from 2000 to 2005. There is one way to attract plenty of applicants to any job. Offer pay that is better than other opportunities. That is what the windmill tower folks are doing now. You have to climb, freeze your butt off and travel to bumf*** ND, NE or whereever, but because the pay is good, people will do it. Companies who want to find good IT people can pay more or guarantee they won't lay off the it folks and outsource. At 11:32 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Redghost wrote: Actually there is a movement afoot to allow placement of small windmills in suburban lots. Allows you to power your home, sort of. They are 32' tall and not really loud. Just ugly. Not really useful, either. I guess nobody told them the tower should be 30' taller than the tallest obstacle within 1/8 mile or so. Kind of like this supermarket near me, they put what looks like a 40' tower next to an approximately 35' building. http://www.shophorrocks.com/WIND-POWER.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Well there was mention that you have to site it well so that there are no blockages impeding the wind. I guess that does limit where you put it. If you do have a blustery corner of the lot though, it may be just fine for a 5kW system clay On Dec 21, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Mitch Haley wrote: Redghost wrote: Actually there is a movement afoot to allow placement of small windmills in suburban lots. Allows you to power your home, sort of. They are 32' tall and not really loud. Just ugly. Not really useful, either. I guess nobody told them the tower should be 30' taller than the tallest obstacle within 1/8 mile or so. Kind of like this supermarket near me, they put what looks like a 40' tower next to an approximately 35' building. http://www.shophorrocks.com/WIND-POWER.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Typical spread of posts eh? My friend Dan was the land surveyor for the project, he's been up there quite a bit since the towers have been online and says its not all that loud at all, definately not a sound that hampers conversation and surely nowhere like living next to the highway or a railroad track... Theres some video on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbdWMPUBIA0 notice that you can hear birds... Near as I can tell other than the lame sound and strobing complaints people are complaining that the power doesn't benefit the rate payers of Maine as usual people with no idea theres anybody in the world that might want power other than themselves... -Curt Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:12:49 -0500 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 494e9531.9080...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Curt Raymond wrote: Back home they've built the Mars Hill wind project http://www.marshillwind.com/mars_hill/ A bunch of idiots built houses on the hill after the built the first roads in for tower construction now they're complaining about the noise of the turbines. I found a forum topic on that: http://www.city-data.com/forum/maine/50917-wind-turbine-noise-problem-mars-hill.html -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/b48b5122/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Geez, ugly compared to what? I'd rather everybody have a little windmill rather than just a couple big powerplants... -Curt Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:24:14 -0800 From: Redghost redgh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 7594c974-dbec-4224-a607-d0604103b...@comcast.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Actually there is a movement afoot to allow placement of small windmills in suburban lots. Allows you to power your home, sort of. They are 32' tall and not really loud. Just ugly. Might get some traction under that Change Candidate. clay -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/bbf470e6/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
BPA is looking at investing huge sums to provide transmission lines from the wind farms of Oregon and Washington to where the power is used. Not much sense shipping it to Idaho instead of PDX and SEA. Once it gets on the main grid, then CA can suck it all up clay On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Typical spread of posts eh? My friend Dan was the land surveyor for the project, he's been up there quite a bit since the towers have been online and says its not all that loud at all, definately not a sound that hampers conversation and surely nowhere like living next to the highway or a railroad track... Theres some video on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbdWMPUBIA0 notice that you can hear birds... Near as I can tell other than the lame sound and strobing complaints people are complaining that the power doesn't benefit the rate payers of Maine as usual people with no idea theres anybody in the world that might want power other than themselves... -Curt Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:12:49 -0500 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 494e9531.9080...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Curt Raymond wrote: Back home they've built the Mars Hill wind project http://www.marshillwind.com/mars_hill/ A bunch of idiots built houses on the hill after the built the first roads in for tower construction now they're complaining about the noise of the turbines. I found a forum topic on that: http://www.city-data.com/forum/maine/50917-wind-turbine-noise-problem-mars-hill.html -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/b48b5122/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Much more a NIMBY deal than actually ugly. They are sort of elegant and do not need to have huge winds to power them. five to ten knots would be enough to provide full power in the 5-10kW range. In the windy spots that would be fine. Maybe adding them to tall buildings in town could reduce heating or cooling bills clay On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Geez, ugly compared to what? I'd rather everybody have a little windmill rather than just a couple big powerplants... -Curt Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:24:14 -0800 From: Redghost redgh...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 7594c974-dbec-4224-a607-d0604103b...@comcast.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Actually there is a movement afoot to allow placement of small windmills in suburban lots. Allows you to power your home, sort of. They are 32' tall and not really loud. Just ugly. Might get some traction under that Change Candidate. clay -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081221/bbf470e6/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I have to agree with Loren. I work in Aerospace, used to be TRW but we were acquired by Northrop Grumman. Our IT guys are the best but now they have all been transferred to our IT sector. This sector treats them poorly and has taken away benefits. They cut down the number of techs and just heaped on more work on the remaining folks. When they have a rollout of some software upgrade or the like service suffers greatly but I guess the heads of the IT sector are getting their bonuses for saving all the money. I just don't understand where they figure the savings are when it makes for so much lost time for the folks that IT supports. Just two weeks ago they gave many of them an option of 20% pay cut or the door. Sucks! Barry Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games. - Ernest Hemingway '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ''97 Ply Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: They do, except the taxpayer pays the gap for them. In a country like Oz the poor mainly choose to be poor. Plenty of work if you wanna work, especially if you are willing to learn some skills apart from how to milk the social security system for all it's worth. Hendrik Rich Thomas wrote: Shouldn't the po folks have the same quality of care as you get with your ability to pay the gap fee? That system is inequitable! Keepin the po folks down! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I must disagree (no one chooses to be poor) in the sense that lots of Americans would rather be poor than do the study and work required to be more successful. Poor Americans (who have cars and shelter and who are entitled to Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) are rich compared to most of the people in this world; so poor is relative. I'd cite my own step children as examples. They all started college, only one finished. They all are unemployed a lot and they work at entry-level jobs when they do work. They are in their 40s and 50s now so change would be hard with that track record. If anything, there is not enough repression to motivate folks to do better. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:35 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Look at this as a product comparison: American IT vs Outsource IT. Why does the consumer choose the Outsource product? How can the American product become more competitive or superior? -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:33 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Oz has got to be the most repressive regime on the planet if it has po' people. They are all just po' victims. what was that the Bible said? The poor are always victims of repression. There are NO poor in those glorious nations of brotherhood like Cuba! /) Hendrik, why should you have at least a couple of Mercedes when there are po' folks out there without even a Yugo? We must take away your Mercedes to help those you repress! /) At 11:34 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: They do, except the taxpayer pays the gap for them. In a country like Oz the poor mainly choose to be poor. Plenty of work if you wanna work, especially if you are willing to learn some skills apart from how to milk the social security system for all it's worth. Hendrik Rich Thomas wrote: Shouldn't the po folks have the same quality of care as you get with your ability to pay the gap fee? That system is inequitable! Keepin the po folks down! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Rich Thomas wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. Yep. Personally, I don't know if I could do many other non-engineering jobs though. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. even children learn if they see their parents get burned on a hot stove.Dumbsizing is still dumb. Nobody wants to call dell or M$ tech support cause all you get is someone in india who can't help with the problem. In the case if M$ it takes 2 days and you pay $200 to find out they can't/won't help Plus, all the career counselors told kids to stay away from IT because of the way IT folk were treated from 2000 to 2005. There is one way to attract plenty of applicants to any job. Offer pay that is better than other opportunities. That is what the windmill tower folks are doing now. You have to climb, freeze your butt off and travel to bumf*** ND, NE or whereever, but because the pay is good, people will do it. Companies who want to find good IT people can pay more or guarantee they won't lay off the it folks and outsource. At 11:32 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I grew up poor. We were tenant farmers in Eastern NC. 'Hardly had a pot to pee in. In 1938, Daddy was trying to buy a 300 acre farm in Wake Co., NC; total price for the farm was $5k; 'couldn't make the $500 payment for that year; 'lost the farm and all our machinery and horses; 'went back to tenant farming. I knew we didn't have much in the way of money, material things, etc., but Mamma always put three full meals on the table EVERY day. I reflect on it now a wonder how she ever did it. Considering what we had, she worked a miracle every day. My mom and dad gave me something worth far more than material things, though; they gave me a strong sense of integrity (the ability to do what is right when nobody else is watching), tenacity, persistence, and perseverance. It's amazing what these characteristics can overcome. As a child, I never felt REALLY poor; I had good health, a good mind and a positive attitude about getting ahead. I knew that I could do ANYTHING as well as anybody and better than many. In about the fifth grade I realized that the key to a better life was education, and I never missed another day of school after that. In high school I was always at the top of the class; some of my classmates called me Brain, but that wasn't it at all; many times I stayed up all night getting my homework done and went to school the next day without going to bed, but the homework was done - that's why I knew the answers - not that I was a brain. I always tried to be a gentleman, though; 'finally told a coupla these friends several months ago how hard I had worked to be prepared in class - 'they could not believe it - they still thought I was the class brain. So being poor can work to hold someone back if one LETS it. In MY case it made me more determined to succeed. Too many parents, though, don't seem to care about what their children are doing in school. I MAY have turned out to be REAL arrogant SOB if I'd been a rich boy. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism I must disagree (no one chooses to be poor) in the sense that lots of Americans would rather be poor than do the study and work required to be more successful. Poor Americans (who have cars and shelter and who are entitled to Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) are rich compared to most of the people in this world; so poor is relative. I'd cite my own step children as examples. They all started college, only one finished. They all are unemployed a lot and they work at entry-level jobs when they do work. They are in their 40s and 50s now so change would be hard with that track record. If anything, there is not enough repression to motivate folks to do better. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:35 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. For example: 10 years ago the tower people were few and far between. Those that were in the business were very well paid and respected. As the cell phone business expanded, and everybody and their brother started getting into site development, they started hiring minimum wagers to do tower monkey work, as it's now known. The guys who were truly experts in their field and very well compensated saw their jobs and livelihoods go away to cheap labor, This is even better represented by the number of injuries and deaths in the business - I think either Verizon or ATT suspended all tower operations earlier this year because of the huge increase in deaths that had taken place just this year. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 2:25 PM Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. even children learn if they see their parents get burned on a hot stove. Dumbsizing is still dumb. Nobody wants to call dell or M$ tech support cause all you get is someone in india who can't help with the problem. In the case if M$ it takes 2 days and you pay $200 to find out they can't/won't help Plus, all the career counselors told kids to stay away from IT because of the way IT folk were treated from 2000 to 2005. There is one way to attract plenty of applicants to any job. Offer pay that is better than other opportunities. That is what the windmill tower folks are doing now. You have to climb, freeze your butt off and travel to bumf*** ND, NE or whereever, but because the pay is good, people will do it. Companies who want to find good IT people can pay more or guarantee they won't lay off the it folks and outsource. At 11:32 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Absolutely right. windtower monkeys will go the same route, but for now, they pay well. And speaking of deaths, they were letting any fool run cranes up until the construction market went down. The number of crane collapses/accidents this spring was unreal. At 04:06 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. For example: 10 years ago the tower people were few and far between. Those that were in the business were very well paid and respected. As the cell phone business expanded, and everybody and their brother started getting into site development, they started hiring minimum wagers to do tower monkey work, as it's now known. The guys who were truly experts in their field and very well compensated saw their jobs and livelihoods go away to cheap labor, This is even better represented by the number of injuries and deaths in the business - I think either Verizon or ATT suspended all tower operations earlier this year because of the huge increase in deaths that had taken place just this year. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 2:25 PM Enrollments are down primarily because of the way IT folks were treated in 2000 to 2005. even children learn if they see their parents get burned on a hot stove.Dumbsizing is still dumb. Nobody wants to call dell or M$ tech support cause all you get is someone in india who can't help with the problem. In the case if M$ it takes 2 days and you pay $200 to find out they can't/won't help Plus, all the career counselors told kids to stay away from IT because of the way IT folk were treated from 2000 to 2005. There is one way to attract plenty of applicants to any job. Offer pay that is better than other opportunities. That is what the windmill tower folks are doing now. You have to climb, freeze your butt off and travel to bumf*** ND, NE or whereever, but because the pay is good, people will do it. Companies who want to find good IT people can pay more or guarantee they won't lay off the it folks and outsource. At 11:32 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: I think there are plenty of people around for IT work, but they got tired of getting whacked and imports coming in cheaper to take their jobs, and a lot of off-shoring to India, and other outsourcing. That is why enrollments are way down, smart kids don't see as big a future as they did a few years ago. --R OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/ 20081220/194cbaf8/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com writes: I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. On another note, around here there was always controversy and protest whenever a cell tower was going up. People thought they were ugly, farmers said the warning strobes frightened their livestock at night, etc. Wonder if the same will happen if windmill start sprouting up everywhere. Or maybe since it's more PC they will be accepted, even welcomed? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
There is at least one lawsuit now over noise pollution from a wind farm. It was in the news a few weeks or months ago. BillR -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:53 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com writes: I would agree with the IT comments, however, the windmill thing, if it gets going, will probably end up much like the telecom (cellular) business has. On another note, around here there was always controversy and protest whenever a cell tower was going up. People thought they were ugly, farmers said the warning strobes frightened their livestock at night, etc. Wonder if the same will happen if windmill start sprouting up everywhere. Or maybe since it's more PC they will be accepted, even welcomed? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
See, I listen to progressive radio (or I used before I left Houston) -- KPFT Pacifica Radio -- and on all the shows there they explained to me that po folks were victims of repression by the evil corporations (and world trade and globalism), the evil Bush (and Cheney and Halliburton), years and years of The White Man, years and years of The Man (I think The Man can come in various colors, but includes The White Man), poor schools (in which more money is spent per pupil than anywhere else in the world, and the unions are strong! and good looking!), and various other vils like eating meat and animal products and not breast feeding babies. More money is needed. And Programs, we need Programs. Po folks would go away with more money and Programs. I am disappointed that I moved before the election, I need to stream KPFT so I can learn how The Obamessiah is going to make it all better. Down there in Oz and in other parts of the USA y'all need some progressive radio to tell you how it is. You can stream kpft.org if you need to learn How It Really Is but you might have to stay up late (although I think they cache most of the programs you can download or stream on demand). I would suggest Connect The Dots with Bro. Robert Muhammed, SW Regional Minister of the Nation of Islam to start, and maybe Hitaji Abdul Azziz's show (I forget what it is called). You'll be right (or left)! --R Scott Ritchey wrote: I must disagree (no one chooses to be poor) in the sense that lots of Americans would rather be poor than do the study and work required to be more successful. Poor Americans (who have cars and shelter and who are entitled to Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) are rich compared to most of the people in this world; so poor is relative. I'd cite my own step children as examples. They all started college, only one finished. They all are unemployed a lot and they work at entry-level jobs when they do work. They are in their 40s and 50s now so change would be hard with that track record. If anything, there is not enough repression to motivate folks to do better. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:35 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism They must be victims of repression of some sort -- no one chooses to be poor. Repression! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
maybe i should take some classes for that OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 89 300E, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D x2, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Kaleb, if you decide to, let me know. I spent the last 8 years or so teaching networking, and I think you have the aptitude for it (attention to detail, and ability to live with chaos) I have a lot of leftover stuff. At 05:48 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: maybe i should take some classes for that OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 89 300E, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D x2, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
He should go to a Cisco academy. According to the one I worked with (part of our adult ed program) that was pretty much an open checkbook if you graduated. I don't know it that's still the case, but I have to believe there is some creedence to it. Dan --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: From: Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 9:19 PM Kaleb, if you decide to, let me know. I spent the last 8 years or so teaching networking, and I think you have the aptitude for it (attention to detail, and ability to live with chaos) I have a lot of leftover stuff. At 05:48 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: maybe i should take some classes for that OK Don wrote: Yes - the IT industry has to import help because there aren't enough trained people here. Enrollment in computer science programs is way down. These aren't low paying jobs either. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 89 560SEL, 89 300E, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D x2, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
The Votech system in OK has a pretty good IT program. Some come from out-of-state to attend. It's at least a good place to start. On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:49 PM, LWB250 lwb...@yahoo.com wrote: He should go to a Cisco academy. According to the one I worked with (part of our adult ed program) that was pretty much an open checkbook if you graduated. I don't know it that's still the case, but I have to believe there is some creedence to it. Dan -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games. - Ernest Hemingway '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ''97 Ply Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
it was asked are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free Absolutely - it is illegal for a hospital to turn away people in need of emergency care. One reason ERs are often crowded is people w/o insurance go there when they have a cold or flu - they get treated - they cannot go to their doctor and get the same care for free - he's under no obligation to treat people for free (yet) Basing your understanding of healthcare or anything else on what you see in a movie is a terrible thing to do - mixing entertainment with facts often ends up distorted. BTW, Moore is a moron out to make himself rich. When he need healthcare I wonder if he goes to UK, Canada or Cuba? Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 1:08 AM Subject: [MBZ] Socialism Yes but a Government is charged with looking after ALL it's citizens. Plenty of use think that it is, in fact, not. At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. I do believe there is a system in place called unemployment benefits which enable those with no means to buy food, although if they do or not is questionable. Those are State-run, not Federal, and such benefits are limited to those who have been employed. Also, they run out, and there are often strings attached. All as it should be, IMHO. I don't believe in funding charity at the point of a gun, which is what any State-run program is. Our system is badly broken, but I haven't seen any other system that I believe is fundamentally better, all things considered. I think that what we just signed up for, a Health Savings Account in conjunction with a high deductible, is one of the better ideas I've heard about. What we _need_, is a health care system that encourages competition, and thus the application of everybody's brain, rather than some hidden somebody-else-pays-except-that-it's-really-me-if-you-dig-deep-enough kind of system. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Ed wrote health care is not to find cures, as there is no money to be made it that Jonas Salk would probably disagree - and all the people who *didn;t* get polio should thank him. He cured Polio by prevented people contracting it. Have you considered it may be *impossible* to cure some diseases? You seem to think there's something wrong with treating people who are ill? IMO they just should be treated and those doing the treating should be paid - they car. like the people who work on your - Are you proposing a different solution? Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) www.youroil.net Oil Analysis Kits Porsche Posters/Weber parts Test Results - http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ http://www.scamfreetop10.com/1233.html . - Original Message - From: E M pokieba...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism One thing people often forget, the business of health care is not to find cures, as there is no money to be made it that, the goal is to find ways to manage health problems, over a long period of time. That's where the money is folks. ;-) Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Lee Einer l...@dosmanosjewelry.com Doesn't surprise me. I lived in Detroit for more than a decade, and the folks over the bridge in Windsor, at least those I spoke to, were really pretty happy with their health insurance. I had a (formerly) Canadian co-worker who had lived under both their system and ours, and she was in retrospect quite appreciative of Canadian health care. What many people don't get is how incredibly lucrative U.S. healthcare is. It is the sixth ranking sector of our economy. A corollary of this is that there is immense money and power behind the preservation of the status quo. What many people also don't get is that the American healthcare system does very well at what it is intended to do - make money. No kidding, I've been there, it is a gravy train second only to petroleum and defense contracting. The problem is, when it is you or your loved one facing a grave illness, you really wish the primary purpose of the system was to save lives and make people better. Lee Peter Frederick wrote: All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:04 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism it was asked are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free Absolutely - it is illegal for a hospital to turn away people in need of emergency care. When my daughter moved back to the US from Antigua she had no insurance and some health issues. When she was so ill she could barely walk she went to an ER and was given what seemed a pretty cursory exam and diagnosis, and sent on her way. A few hours later she was bad enough that my wife took off from work to take her to a more distant - but very good - county hospital where she spent a week in great pain and distress. The first hospital didn't refuse to treat her, they just did a half-assed job of it - barely enough to cover the appearance of the legal requirement - to get her out the door. Perhaps she wouldn't have died without treatment, but had she been alone during that time it would seem a real possibility. Illegal to turn away a sick person? Yes, but that is not the whole story. BillR ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I am not basing my understanding of the US health care system on Moore's movie, I am asking questions from people who live in the system. Obviously Moore's modus operandi is to cut out any stuff that he does not feel would help his cause. I suppose if he gets sick he would have a nice health care plan, paid for by people who bought/watched his 'docos'. However moron or not at least his movies make people think, as opposed to some of the junk out there. In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik LarryT wrote: it was asked are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free Absolutely - it is illegal for a hospital to turn away people in need of emergency care. One reason ERs are often crowded is people w/o insurance go there when they have a cold or flu - they get treated - they cannot go to their doctor and get the same care for free - he's under no obligation to treat people for free (yet) Basing your understanding of healthcare or anything else on what you see in a movie is a terrible thing to do - mixing entertainment with facts often ends up distorted. BTW, Moore is a moron out to make himself rich. When he need healthcare I wonder if he goes to UK, Canada or Cuba? Sincerely, Larry T (74 911, 91 300D 2.5T) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Shouldn't the po folks have the same quality of care as you get with your ability to pay the gap fee? That system is inequitable! Keepin the po folks down! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
They do, except the taxpayer pays the gap for them. In a country like Oz the poor mainly choose to be poor. Plenty of work if you wanna work, especially if you are willing to learn some skills apart from how to milk the social security system for all it's worth. Hendrik Rich Thomas wrote: Shouldn't the po folks have the same quality of care as you get with your ability to pay the gap fee? That system is inequitable! Keepin the po folks down! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Contrary to popular wisdom, there is plenty of work in the US too. It's just that po native born 'mericans think they are too good for those sorts of jobs. And this includes everything from picking crops to being doctors. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Hendrik Fay Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 19:52 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism They do, except the taxpayer pays the gap for them. In a country like Oz the poor mainly choose to be poor. Plenty of work if you wanna work, especially if you are willing to learn some skills apart from how to milk the social security system for all it's worth. Hendrik Rich Thomas wrote: Shouldn't the po folks have the same quality of care as you get with your ability to pay the gap fee? That system is inequitable! Keepin the po folks down! --R Hendrik Fay wrote: In Australia we have a system where the poor get free health care and the ones that get off their behinds and earn a living and pay tax have to contribute towards their treatment. Sure I can go down to the ER and take my chances, where a priority systems is in place and this might mean I have to wait for some time before getting treated, or I can go to my local GP and pay a gap for the visit. Hendrik ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
E M wrote: I've had the wrench slip a few times while working on cars, but I can tell you what, I'm enough of a wuzz that I'd reach for the electric tape or Crazyglue long before I'd start searching around for the home sewing kit! Here's a nice wrench slip. I punched the edge of a mcpherson strut spring seat with the back of my hand hard enough to achieve full penetration. Gee, that's what the inside of my hand looks like. First pic is about 15 minutes after injury, second pic is 2-3 days later. Notice the 20 year old scar above and to the right of the new injury, faintly visible in the second pic. I washed it out as well as I could, but I think I got a mild infection. Car suspensions aren't exactly clean. Mitch. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DSCN0250.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 34183 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081213/649026a9/attachment.jpe -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DSCN0255.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 74623 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081213/649026a9/attachment-0001.jpe ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
You did a fine job Mitch. I think you missed your calling at med school. :-) Probably just as good you don't work full time at a garage though. hee hee. ;-) That did come out a lot cleaner than a lot of stitch jobs I've seen. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net E M wrote: I've had the wrench slip a few times while working on cars, but I can tell you what, I'm enough of a wuzz that I'd reach for the electric tape or Crazyglue long before I'd start searching around for the home sewing kit! Here's a nice wrench slip. I punched the edge of a mcpherson strut spring seat with the back of my hand hard enough to achieve full penetration. Gee, that's what the inside of my hand looks like. First pic is about 15 minutes after injury, second pic is 2-3 days later. Notice the 20 year old scar above and to the right of the new injury, faintly visible in the second pic. I washed it out as well as I could, but I think I got a mild infection. Car suspensions aren't exactly clean. Mitch. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DSCN0250.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 34183 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081213/649026a9/attachment.jpe -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DSCN0255.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 74623 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20081213/649026a9/attachment-0001.jpe ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
E M wrote: You did a fine job Mitch. I think you missed your calling at med school. :-) Probably just as good you don't work full time at a garage though. hee hee. ;-) 20-22 years ago I did. First at a Honda Motorcycle dealer, then at a Saab indy. These days, when I'm working in the driveway in a hurry, and I find out that I picked the wrong size socket when it slips off the caliper mounting bolt and I smack my hand on the spring seat, I don't feel so professional. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html It appears to be fact-based, despite being originally published in one of those left wing wacko rags. (but I have no ready source for data to confirm or refute it) I have no idea what, if any, political motive the Commonwealth Fund might have. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician harry watkins wrote: The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I think Mr. Moore is pretty credible on healthcare. I worked in the healthcare field for close to 20 years, ended up a whistleblower on fraud and corruption. Remember the insurance company hitman in Sicko who explained how insurance companies bumped people off their policies to avoid paying big-ticket claims? That was me. And I stand by what I said. Lee Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician harry watkins wrote: The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I see that many on this thread are arguing from ideology rather than data. Perhaps the most important fact is that under the U.S. system millions of people have no coverage at all. And an estimated 18,000 per year join the choir celestial due to lack of access to health care. And this does not even include deaths by denial inflicted by insurance companies. This all despite the fact that the U.S. pays twice as much per capita for healthcare as any other country. Twice as much, PER CAPITA, and millions of people have no coverage. So in millions of cases, we are paying twice as much for nothing at all. harry watkins wrote: The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:08 AM Subject: [MBZ] Socialism Yes but a Government is charged with looking after ALL it's citizens. Plenty of use think that it is, in fact, not. At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. I do believe there is a system in place called unemployment benefits which enable those with no means to buy food, although if they do or not is questionable. Those are State-run, not Federal, and such benefits are limited to those who have been employed. Also, they run out, and there are often strings attached. All as it should be, IMHO. I don't believe in funding charity at the point of a gun, which is what any State-run program is. Our system is badly broken, but I haven't seen any other system that I believe is fundamentally better, all things considered. I think that what we just signed up for, a Health Savings Account in conjunction with a high deductible, is one of the better ideas I've heard about. What we _need_, is a health care system that encourages competition, and thus the application of everybody's brain, rather than some hidden somebody-else-pays-except-that-it's-really-me-if-you-dig-deep-enough kind of system. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Jim Cathey wrote: At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. Jim, that is a popular misconception. People get wheeled to the curb with unset broken limbs every day in this country because they can't pay and have no insurance. Federal law requires hospitals to treat you if your condition is life-threatening and you are not stabilized - for example, it would be illegal to kick you to the curb while you were having a stroke or a heart attack. The guy sewing his leg up was hurting and needed medical care but was in no danger of bleeding out. He would not have gotten free treatment in a U.S. hospital. In fact, if you do not have insurance, you do not get free treatment, period. The hospital will still come after you for payment, send you to a collection agency, etc. If in the end they are unable to collect from any payment source, that is when it turns out to be free. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Part of the medical cost issue is a result of our horribly litigious society. It's to the point where doctors will order a ton of tests for the most insignificant malady just to protect themselves from litigation. Certainly there should be some sort of mechanism for righting wrongs in the health care system, but I also believe that doctors need some sort of protection from the ridiculous claims that are often made against them. Along with that, I think people have to understand that medical science is not perfect and never will be. Unless they are convinced that their care provider is doing their best to care for them, there will always be those who go after the care provider for the most insignificant issues. Dan --- On Sat, 12/13/08, harry watkins harry...@bellsouth.net wrote: From: harry watkins harry...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 2:06 AM The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:08 AM Subject: [MBZ] Socialism Yes but a Government is charged with looking after ALL it's citizens. Plenty of use think that it is, in fact, not. At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. I do believe there is a system in place called unemployment benefits which enable those with no means to buy food, although if they do or not is questionable. Those are State-run, not Federal, and such benefits are limited to those who have been employed. Also, they run out, and there are often strings attached. All as it should be, IMHO. I don't believe in funding charity at the point of a gun, which is what any State-run program is. Our system is badly broken, but I haven't seen any other system that I believe is fundamentally better, all things considered. I think that what we just signed up for, a Health Savings Account in conjunction with a high deductible, is one of the better ideas I've heard about. What we _need_, is a health care system that encourages competition, and thus the application of everybody's brain, rather than some hidden somebody-else-pays-except-that-it's-really-me-if-you-dig-deep-enough kind of system. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I believe Mr. Moore doesn't have a full or proper understanding of the medical system here. Doctor's are self employed, see patients, and then bill the government for their services, on a pre set price depending on the service provided. Doctors see as many patients as they can, as they are working very much on a profit basis. This system also means, regardless of a doctors skill, he more or less charges, and is paid the same amount. It is also very much a revolving door service at most doctors offices, as the fee per visit is set, no extra chit chat. I think there are many reasons for longer life expectency in some of the countries mentioned. Less over eating, more physically active, and other lifestyle choices. It would be a mistake to think in such countries as Canada, all medical needs are covered. They are not!! Waiting times for much needed tests are often long, and many medications are not covered, and are paid out of pocket. Like the US, there is always a way, but it's often the middle class that gets shafted. I think one very important factor to look at when talking about all these different systems, is their sustainability, the models on which they are built. I don't think any one system is perfect, but is the model on which they were built solid, and sustainable? Again, while in the US, I don't think it's a perfect system, they can probably keep it going as it, which serves and has served the majority of Americans very well over the years. In Canada, the system was what I believe the best in the world at one time, but the model on which it was built no longer exists. It's failing, the numbers no longer work. It's like a sinking ship and we're bailing water with a spoon. What we need is a new ship, and what the government is convinced we need, is a bigger spoon. I believe we will move more towards a system like the UK, allowing a mixture of what we currently have, and allowing private. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Hendrik Fay heni...@ozemail.com.au Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician harry watkins wrote: The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http:// allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http:// www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/ rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
lol, yes, I would have to agree, if you don't use it, it's one of, if not the very best systems in the world. ;-) All joking aside, it is a very good system, but it is a failing system. Taxes are a tricky thing. We are masters at hiding them, and redirecting them into areas the government feels are in our best interest. We've never shy to borrow a good tax idea here in Canada and make it our own. lol My porsche is also the most fuel efficient and lowest run cost car I've even owned. Mind you, I only drive it a dozen times a year. hee hee. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http:// allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http:// www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/ rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Doesn't surprise me. I lived in Detroit for more than a decade, and the folks over the bridge in Windsor, at least those I spoke to, were really pretty happy with their health insurance. I had a (formerly) Canadian co-worker who had lived under both their system and ours, and she was in retrospect quite appreciative of Canadian health care. What many people don't get is how incredibly lucrative U.S. healthcare is. It is the sixth ranking sector of our economy. A corollary of this is that there is immense money and power behind the preservation of the status quo. What many people also don't get is that the American healthcare system does very well at what it is intended to do - make money. No kidding, I've been there, it is a gravy train second only to petroleum and defense contracting. The problem is, when it is you or your loved one facing a grave illness, you really wish the primary purpose of the system was to save lives and make people better. Lee Peter Frederick wrote: All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
One thing people often forget, the business of health care is not to find cures, as there is no money to be made it that, the goal is to find ways to manage health problems, over a long period of time. That's where the money is folks. ;-) Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Lee Einer l...@dosmanosjewelry.com Doesn't surprise me. I lived in Detroit for more than a decade, and the folks over the bridge in Windsor, at least those I spoke to, were really pretty happy with their health insurance. I had a (formerly) Canadian co-worker who had lived under both their system and ours, and she was in retrospect quite appreciative of Canadian health care. What many people don't get is how incredibly lucrative U.S. healthcare is. It is the sixth ranking sector of our economy. A corollary of this is that there is immense money and power behind the preservation of the status quo. What many people also don't get is that the American healthcare system does very well at what it is intended to do - make money. No kidding, I've been there, it is a gravy train second only to petroleum and defense contracting. The problem is, when it is you or your loved one facing a grave illness, you really wish the primary purpose of the system was to save lives and make people better. Lee Peter Frederick wrote: All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
If this were banned (or banned light, where we should take this conversation) I would provide a one-word answer to that first statement, and it would not be balderdash. You insult many many people who are working diligently at curing many diseases, people who have studied for years and years, work many hours often with not that great pay, deal with all kinds of impediments, and yet strive with their whole being to find cures for diseases. That statement is, no disrespect intended to EM, just totally ignorant. --R E M wrote: One thing people often forget, the business of health care is not to find cures, as there is no money to be made it that, the goal is to find ways to manage health problems, over a long period of time. That's where the money is folks. ;-) Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
No offense taken in your reply at all Rich. I read and respect your opinion on a number of topics. My opinions, like everyones, are based on personal experience, knowing personally many people in the field of research, and also, depending personally on their work to keep me alive. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net If this were banned (or banned light, where we should take this conversation) I would provide a one-word answer to that first statement, and it would not be balderdash. You insult many many people who are working diligently at curing many diseases, people who have studied for years and years, work many hours often with not that great pay, deal with all kinds of impediments, and yet strive with their whole being to find cures for diseases. That statement is, no disrespect intended to EM, just totally ignorant. --R E M wrote: One thing people often forget, the business of health care is not to find cures, as there is no money to be made it that, the goal is to find ways to manage health problems, over a long period of time. That's where the money is folks. ;-) Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
'Need to bring that Porsche down here and let me exercise it a bit for ya during the winter maybe a dozen times or so; 'keep it outta that nasty salt up there and still have it exercised a bit. I could even fly up there and bring it back, etc. Wilton - Original Message - From: E M pokieba...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism lol, yes, I would have to agree, if you don't use it, it's one of, if not the very best systems in the world. ;-) All joking aside, it is a very good system, but it is a failing system. Taxes are a tricky thing. We are masters at hiding them, and redirecting them into areas the government feels are in our best interest. We've never shy to borrow a good tax idea here in Canada and make it our own. lol My porsche is also the most fuel efficient and lowest run cost car I've even owned. Mind you, I only drive it a dozen times a year. hee hee. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http:// allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http:// www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/ rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Wilton, Again, you're very kind in offering to help exercise my cars for me. lol. On the trip down, maybe we could load up the trunk with some used W124 parts. There must be a business model in there somewherea place for Canadian cars to go and relax during the winter months, and a means to transport cheap used Canadian Benz parts to the US. Think we need to crunch some numbers over a couple of iced tea. ;-) hee hee Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Wilton Strickland wilt...@nc.rr.com 'Need to bring that Porsche down here and let me exercise it a bit for ya during the winter maybe a dozen times or so; 'keep it outta that nasty salt up there and still have it exercised a bit. I could even fly up there and bring it back, etc. Wilton - Original Message - From: E M pokieba...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism lol, yes, I would have to agree, if you don't use it, it's one of, if not the very best systems in the world. ;-) All joking aside, it is a very good system, but it is a failing system. Taxes are a tricky thing. We are masters at hiding them, and redirecting them into areas the government feels are in our best interest. We've never shy to borrow a good tax idea here in Canada and make it our own. lol My porsche is also the most fuel efficient and lowest run cost car I've even owned. Mind you, I only drive it a dozen times a year. hee hee. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http:// allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http:// www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/ rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I wouldn't charge much, especially on a fleet basis. Wilton - Original Message - From: E M pokieba...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism Wilton, Again, you're very kind in offering to help exercise my cars for me. lol. On the trip down, maybe we could load up the trunk with some used W124 parts. There must be a business model in there somewherea place for Canadian cars to go and relax during the winter months, and a means to transport cheap used Canadian Benz parts to the US. Think we need to crunch some numbers over a couple of iced tea. ;-) hee hee Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Wilton Strickland wilt...@nc.rr.com 'Need to bring that Porsche down here and let me exercise it a bit for ya during the winter maybe a dozen times or so; 'keep it outta that nasty salt up there and still have it exercised a bit. I could even fly up there and bring it back, etc. Wilton - Original Message - From: E M pokieba...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Socialism lol, yes, I would have to agree, if you don't use it, it's one of, if not the very best systems in the world. ;-) All joking aside, it is a very good system, but it is a failing system. Taxes are a tricky thing. We are masters at hiding them, and redirecting them into areas the government feels are in our best interest. We've never shy to borrow a good tax idea here in Canada and make it our own. lol My porsche is also the most fuel efficient and lowest run cost car I've even owned. Mind you, I only drive it a dozen times a year. hee hee. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http:// allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http:// www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/ rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
The guy sewing his leg up was hurting and needed medical care but was in no danger of bleeding out. He would not have gotten free treatment in a U.S. hospital. In fact, if you do not have insurance, you do not get free treatment, period. The hospital will still come after you for payment, send you to a collection agency, etc. If in the end they are unable to collect from any payment source, that is when it turns out to be free. May send you to a collection agency; Duke, for example, has a massive budget line that pays the hospital's portion for people without health insurance. They're also pretty good about seeing people regardless of condition. I'm sure many other hospitals are set up the same way. I'm under no illusion that's in any way regulated, it's completely the generosity of the Duke board (and Duke is a nonprofit so I'm not saying that's universal either). Doctors' fees etc. are not covered under the system. I agree with you technically, I'm just pointing out that there is institutional generosity at work in at least some cases, one of which was my wife. Now we have an HMO which has actually turned out very well for us. At first I thought this discussion might violate Kaleb's politics ban, but I suppose working on Benzes has sent plenty of folks to the emergency room. I almost was sent there when my wife saw where the W115 spat 3 quarts of oil on the driveway last weekend, but I sanded it down and she's gotten over it. :) -TC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
I've had the wrench slip a few times while working on cars, but I can tell you what, I'm enough of a wuzz that I'd reach for the electric tape or Crazyglue long before I'd start searching around for the home sewing kit! hee hee. Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Tim C. bb...@crone.us At first I thought this discussion might violate Kaleb's politics ban, but I suppose working on Benzes has sent plenty of folks to the emergency room. I almost was sent there when my wife saw where the W115 spat 3 quarts of oil on the driveway last weekend, but I sanded it down and she's gotten over it. :) -TC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
cures, as there is no money to be made it that, the goal is to find ways to manage health problems, over a long period of time. That's where the money is folks. ;-) So you're saying, every other company in America is managed to get the biggest profit this quarter, without regard to the long term benefit to the company, but pharmaceutical companies are the opposite? If GSK found a one-hit cure for, say, Benz-related injuries, wouldn't they rather have the million-dollar-per payment this quarter from the people who could afford to pay it, instead of the 1.5 million dollars we'll spend in Benz-related care over the next 20-60 years? Perhaps it's sad I think the short-term view is the modus operandi for modern business, but I've seen no evidence to the contrary and a lot in favor, and I would be surprised if pharmaceuticals and oil companies were the only exceptions. -TC Ed 300E 2008/12/13 Lee Einer l...@dosmanosjewelry.com Doesn't surprise me. I lived in Detroit for more than a decade, and the folks over the bridge in Windsor, at least those I spoke to, were really pretty happy with their health insurance. I had a (formerly) Canadian co-worker who had lived under both their system and ours, and she was in retrospect quite appreciative of Canadian health care. What many people don't get is how incredibly lucrative U.S. healthcare is. It is the sixth ranking sector of our economy. A corollary of this is that there is immense money and power behind the preservation of the status quo. What many people also don't get is that the American healthcare system does very well at what it is intended to do - make money. No kidding, I've been there, it is a gravy train second only to petroleum and defense contracting. The problem is, when it is you or your loved one facing a grave illness, you really wish the primary purpose of the system was to save lives and make people better. Lee Peter Frederick wrote: All the howling and insurance company advertising aside, my experience with the Ontario single payer plan was quite good -- at least for my friends and colleagues, as I didn't use it in the three years I was there. My taxes were lower in Canda, too. Peter On Dec 13, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Hendrik Fay wrote: Interesting read but more left wing loony stuff no doubt http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html Hendrik Fay wrote: Moore used Canada, Great Britain, France and Cuba's health systems as examples of ones where the collective pays for the individual to get treated for medical problems. According to him all those countries peoples have a longer life expectancy than those in the US and lower infant mortality (although according to the WHO statistics Cuba is lower than the US). Of course you can't entirely blame the health system on this but it makes you wonder if a profit driven system is a good idea. From memory the US is ranked 37 on the list of good health care systems, whilst expenditure per capita is number 1. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Also spends the second most as a % of GDP http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html So this leads me to think that money is not the problem but how and on what it is spend in the system. Whilst Australia is ranked 29 in the % of GDP and 17 in per capita and the overall rank in 2000 was 32 but number 2 in life expectancy. I can understand Japan being number one in the life expectancy rank, probably due to diet and genetics but Australia is a mixed bag (as the US is) and our indigenous population has a shocking life expectancy rate. Hendrik who is not a statistician ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Lee If you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable. - Kurt Vonnegut ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
Then they write it off Lee Einer wrote: Jim Cathey wrote: At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. Jim, that is a popular misconception. People get wheeled to the curb with unset broken limbs every day in this country because they can't pay and have no insurance. Federal law requires hospitals to treat you if your condition is life-threatening and you are not stabilized - for example, it would be illegal to kick you to the curb while you were having a stroke or a heart attack. The guy sewing his leg up was hurting and needed medical care but was in no danger of bleeding out. He would not have gotten free treatment in a U.S. hospital. In fact, if you do not have insurance, you do not get free treatment, period. The hospital will still come after you for payment, send you to a collection agency, etc. If in the end they are unable to collect from any payment source, that is when it turns out to be free. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 4:55 PM ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Socialism
The medical system we have allows for constant improvements that lead to longer life, I think statistics will attest to that. Putting it under government control will stifle the progress we expect. It seems that the USA is the place to go for the best medical care in the world and people from all over the world show up here when they can afford the best. Every time we open the gates, people come in, very few go out. I've been around for a long time, I've lived in large and small cities and towns. I have never heard or seen of one of these terrible situations where someone suffers because treatment was refused in areas where I've been, have you? Anyone on this list that knows of those things happening, I wish you would share the stories with us. Harry - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:08 AM Subject: [MBZ] Socialism Yes but a Government is charged with looking after ALL it's citizens. Plenty of use think that it is, in fact, not. At the start of the movie Moore showed a bloke putting stitches in his knee because he has no health insurance, are you saying that he would have gotten treated at the local hospital for free? As I understand it, yes. I do believe there is a system in place called unemployment benefits which enable those with no means to buy food, although if they do or not is questionable. Those are State-run, not Federal, and such benefits are limited to those who have been employed. Also, they run out, and there are often strings attached. All as it should be, IMHO. I don't believe in funding charity at the point of a gun, which is what any State-run program is. Our system is badly broken, but I haven't seen any other system that I believe is fundamentally better, all things considered. I think that what we just signed up for, a Health Savings Account in conjunction with a high deductible, is one of the better ideas I've heard about. What we _need_, is a health care system that encourages competition, and thus the application of everybody's brain, rather than some hidden somebody-else-pays-except-that-it's-really-me-if-you-dig-deep-enough kind of system. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
