Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Twice the spring rate would indeed make it rather bouncy, eh? One thing to check, which is easy -- with the car parked, engine off, can you bounce the suspension by applying significant weight to the rear bumper (or by standing on the rear with the tailgate open)? If not, the SLS is not connected up properly, the accumulators are dead, or the lines are blocked. Check for crimped metal lines, you never know what people are up to, and verify that the control valve is working. Dead accumulators make the suspension immobile -- the only thing that can move is the tire sidewalls. VERY bouncy ride, as in the tires leave the ground a lot. This was the condition my TE is was in when I bought it, and it only took an hour or so to fix. I assume you bought new accumulators, but if they were NOS, they could have been dead when you installed them. If the rear suspension is just very stiff and not locked up, or doesn't have full movement, then yes, you should change the springs. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Thanks, Peter. The rear is EXCESSIVELY bouncy, using my weight on the rear bumper. It takes quite a while to settle after I bounce it up and down. Could incorrect springs be the cause of this abnormality? On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.netwrote: Twice the spring rate would indeed make it rather bouncy, eh? One thing to check, which is easy -- with the car parked, engine off, can you bounce the suspension by applying significant weight to the rear bumper (or by standing on the rear with the tailgate open)? If not, the SLS is not connected up properly, the accumulators are dead, or the lines are blocked. Check for crimped metal lines, you never know what people are up to, and verify that the control valve is working. Dead accumulators make the suspension immobile -- the only thing that can move is the tire sidewalls. VERY bouncy ride, as in the tires leave the ground a lot. This was the condition my TE is was in when I bought it, and it only took an hour or so to fix. I assume you bought new accumulators, but if they were NOS, they could have been dead when you installed them. If the rear suspension is just very stiff and not locked up, or doesn't have full movement, then yes, you should change the springs. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
More likely air in the SLS -- the damping is provided by the restriction of fluid flow through the system. Does it actually self level? Load up the rear so it sags down with the engine off and see if it pumps up to level when you start. A couple adults should be enough. Again, kinked or blocked lines will cause this, I think. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
They had to bleed the system when installing the struts so I doubt the line is kinked. What would be the effect of longer/shorter springs than spec.? On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.netwrote: More likely air in the SLS -- the damping is provided by the restriction of fluid flow through the system. Does it actually self level? Load up the rear so it sags down with the engine off and see if it pumps up to level when you start. A couple adults should be enough. Again, kinked or blocked lines will cause this, I think. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
The springs for the SLS are weaker than standard springs, so they will be too stiff if replaced with sedan springs. I don't know how much difference though. If the suspension moves properly, most likely they are too hard. Don't forget that a small leak will result in a system full of air. Check the fluid level. You get a whine from the SLS pump if it's low, as a general rule. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Each spring has the part number stamped on the spring, at one end or the other. The springs would need to be removed from the car to read the part number. You may need a wire brush to remove dirt, rust, etc to be able to read the number. I like Peter's idea about air in the system. Loosen the hydraulic connection at the top of each strut to purge the air. This method is the best way to remove air, that connection is pretty much the high point in the system, and also where the valve in the strut is supposed to provide the damping action. If that valve is air-bound, no damping, which seems to be what you're describing. -- Max Dillon Charleston, SC Original Message From: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com Sent: April 13, 2014 8:37:36 AM EDT To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff? My 1985 300TD may have incorrect (sedan/coupe) rear springs due to a previous owner wanting to disconnect the SLS. This could have been part of the conversion to conventional suspension, using Bilstein rear shocks. After purchasing the vehicle, I swapped out the rear shocks for rear struts, installed new accumulators (air cells), and reconnected the SLS. Now I am wondering why the rear is quite bouncy, so bad enough that I can't pass MD inspection the way it is. I have no paperwork for the original suspension conversion. Ideas on where to go from here? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
I fixed a pinhol leak last year. Reservoir is full. So if the springs are stronger than they should be, does this mean a less or more bouncy ride? Or is this irrelevant to my problem? On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.netwrote: The springs for the SLS are weaker than standard springs, so they will be too stiff if replaced with sedan springs. I don't know how much difference though. If the suspension moves properly, most likely they are too hard. Don't forget that a small leak will result in a system full of air. Check the fluid level. You get a whine from the SLS pump if it's low, as a general rule. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Bouncy ride is due to a lack of damping action, not spring rate. I don't know anything about the SLS other than what I've read here, but what you are describing sounds like bad or missing shocks, not wrong springs. On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.comwrote: I fixed a pinhol leak last year. Reservoir is full. So if the springs are stronger than they should be, does this mean a less or more bouncy ride? Or is this irrelevant to my problem? -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listons to US citizens! There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Bleed the system using the bleed valve on the level controller. The air won't easily work itself out. On Apr 13, 2014, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: Thanks, Peter. The rear is EXCESSIVELY bouncy, using my weight on the rear bumper. It takes quite a while to settle after I bounce it up and down. Could incorrect springs be the cause of this abnormality? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Also, when you open the bleed valve the car should drop an inch or so. If after a thorough bleeding that car does NOT drop upon opening the valve, then you have a defective base pressure valve inside the level controller. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Andrew wrote: I fixed a pinhol leak last year. Reservoir is full. So if the springs are stronger than they should be, does this mean a less or more bouncy ride? Or is this irrelevant to my problem? Probably not. What you described in a earlier post, The rear is EXCESSIVELY bouncy, using my weight on the rear bumper. It takes quite a while to settle after I bounce it up and down. is a description of an under-damped system. The spring rate will have little to do with it. This is the job of the shocks - to convert motion into heat. If the self-leveling part of the suspension is actually working, then there is something else interfering with the damping. Air in the system is pretty unusual, as it should be self bleeding. (If I'm remembering correctly...) I have had mine fully drained a number of times and haven't ever had evidence of air in the system. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Thanks for your input. Problems with Benzes usually have obvious solutions, but in this case which is more obvious - bad (new) air cells or improper levelling adjustment via the rear valve? On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Andrew wrote: I fixed a pinhol leak last year. Reservoir is full. So if the springs are stronger than they should be, does this mean a less or more bouncy ride? Or is this irrelevant to my problem? Probably not. What you described in a earlier post, The rear is EXCESSIVELY bouncy, using my weight on the rear bumper. It takes quite a while to settle after I bounce it up and down. is a description of an under-damped system. The spring rate will have little to do with it. This is the job of the shocks - to convert motion into heat. If the self-leveling part of the suspension is actually working, then there is something else interfering with the damping. Air in the system is pretty unusual, as it should be self bleeding. (If I'm remembering correctly...) I have had mine fully drained a number of times and haven't ever had evidence of air in the system. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
I fixed a pinhol leak last year. Reservoir is full. So if the springs are stronger than they should be, does this mean a less or more bouncy ride? Neither. If your springs were too strong the car would ride too high when unloaded. If the original springs were left in there when vandalized, I'd think the car would ride too low when unloaded, and lower yet when loaded. The struts provide some part of the spring support, and add more when loaded. All damping is the fluid rushing back and forth between the spheres and the struts. The struts have one-way valves in the pistons to make them extend faster than they compress. (Or is it the other way around?) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Thanks for your input. Problems with Benzes usually have obvious solutions, but in this case which is more obvious - bad (new) air cells or improper levelling adjustment via the rear valve? Could be anything, in the face of vandalism. I'd start by disconnecting the valve linkage, and seeing if the car can be moved up and down manually with the valve. If, for example, your car had too-strong springs _and_ hydraulic struts, maybe it's rammed up against the top of its travel and you're bouncing along on tire flex? I'd think the ass would too high then, but perhaps there is more wrong than just one thing. Figure out how the system works, in detail, then start looking with a critical eye, experimenting, etc. It's actually fairly simple. Dare I say, elegant. Sucks when it's broken, though. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
I know that the system is described as self bleeding, and the bleed valve is located on the control valve. That bleed valve is only to relieve pressure in the system prior to work on the hydraulic circuit. In my opinion, fluid in the strut-sphere part of the circuit does not circulate, it only moves back and forth between strut and sphere. Occasionally additional fluid is added, when the car is loaded, and then bled off when the load is removed, but that fluid doesn't circulate, it pretty much just moves back and forth. I'm convinced that the only way to properly bleed the air from the circuit is at the connection at the top of the rear struts. When that part of the circuit has been opened, it should be bled. Humour me, no cost other than time and a few drops of hydraulic fluid. Try bleeding the system my way - it just may solve your problem. -- Max Dillon Charleston, SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Swapping rear springs - what 's the diff?
Disconnecting the strut tops is a bit messy but will work. The easiest is to use heavy weights in the car and the bleed screw (or level control lever disconnected from the roll bar) as a one-two punch. But with lots of weight in the back, opening and closing the just the bleed screw repeatedly will eventually cause the car to fall and rise enough that the air will be exhausted. Ditto for the control lever. The weight is absolutely needed in cases where you are just using the bleed screw vs the control lever. Just need to watch that the levelling valve around the bleed screw isn't so badly corroded that the threads strip! Ask me how I know. D. On Apr 13, 2014, Max Dillon wrote: I know that the system is described as self bleeding, and the bleed valve is located on the control valve. That bleed valve is only to relieve pressure in the system prior to work on the hydraulic circuit. In my opinion, fluid in the strut-sphere part of the circuit does not circulate, it only moves back and forth between strut and sphere. Occasionally additional fluid is added, when the car is loaded, and then bled off when the load is removed, but that fluid doesn't circulate, it pretty much just moves back and forth. I'm convinced that the only way to properly bleed the air from the circuit is at the connection at the top of the rear struts. When that part of the circuit has been opened, it should be bled. Humour me, no cost other than time and a few drops of hydraulic fluid. Try bleeding the system my way - it just may solve your problem. -- Max Dillon Charleston, SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
