Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Seems someone is in the pocket of the oil companies and is spewing FUD: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120145-chevy-volt-battery-life-fail-or-fox-news-fail-somebody-has-the-math-wrong Pity the poor Chevrolet Volt. It’s built by GM, the company that took a multi-billion-dollar taxpayer bailout. It’s a car that comes with a $7,500 government rebate. Now it’s being dissed by Fox News and chain-mailers for costing more to drive than a gasoline-powered car selling for a third as much. GM got hosed, not so much by Fox News as by a parallel chain letter (“Cost to Operate a Chevy Volt”) that overstated the cost of electricity by a factor of 10. The Volt costs a lot to buy but it’s clearly cheaper to run than a gasoline-only car. Snopes.com did a good job deconstructing the chain mail. On battery power, the Volt costs around 5-7 cents a mile to drive, less not more than a gas-engine car. Here’s the backstory. Perhaps tired of being dinged by Fox for the bailout thing and for a compact car that costs almost $40,000 after rebate ($46,500 list), GM put a press fleet Chevrolet Volt in the hands of Eric Bolling of Fox’s The Five (video embedded below). Maybe they thought Bolling would feel the same kind of love for the Volt that tree huggers experience upon climbing into their first Toyota Prius. Not quite. Bolling criticized the battery-power performance of the Volt, about 25 miles, when the Nissan Leaf approaches 100 miles. Bolling noted that, two days in a row, “The car ran out of electricity in the Lincoln Tunnel on my way to work,” which prompted a co-host Kimberly Guilfoyle to pipe up and say, “I’d rather roller skate backwards in the Lincoln Tunnel than drive that thing and break down.” Bolling added, “Why would you put out an electric car that gets only 25 miles?” The show mistook the Volt and Leaf as the same kind of car. The Leaf is an electric-only vehicle, good for 75 miles, maybe 100, then you park it. GM calls the Volt an extended range vehicle; “hybrid with a big battery” would be a good description, too. Where a hybrid might get two miles from its battery, the Volt with its bigger battery pack gets 25 to (on a very good day) 50 miles. When the Volt runs out of battery power, it auto-switches to the small gasoline engine and soldiers on for 300 miles. The reason for the medium-size battery is because most daily driving is less than 25 miles, which means the car can be charged overnight, and for longer trips it switches to gasoline. The “Cost to Operate a Chevy Volt” chain letter went beyond the Fair and Balanced Network’s opinion that the Volt wasn’t a good deal financially for taxpayer or Volt-owner. Using a figure of $1.16 per kilowatt hour for electricity, the chain letter concluded, “So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more than 6 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across the country.” Electricity actually costs about $.127 per kilowatt hour now; a tenth of what the chain email states. The battery pack stores 16 kWh of energy, but, says GM, not all 16 kWh are used. A full charge adds 9.6 kWh that can be used to move the Volt and another 3-4 kWh are used in charging on a 120-volt system, less with a more efficient 220-volt charger. So a full charge on 120V power consumes 13.4 kWh of electricity, or $1.57. The Fox News 25-mile jaunt thus cost 6.3 cents per mile; if the Volt got 35 miles on a charge (not unusual), it would be 4.5 cents per mile. A compact car getting 35 mpg would cost 10 cents per mile using $3.50-a-gallon gasoline. The chain letter’s claim that it would take three times as long to cross the US as a gasoline car assumes the Volt owner would stop to refill the gas tank *and* recharge the battery each time, meaning you’d drive 4.5 hours then stop for 10 hours, drive 4.5, stop for 10, limping across America. That’s absurd but that’s what you expect when you get letters prefaced by “Urgent. You MUST read this and pass it along.” A response on a GM blog was right on target when it started by quoting mathematician and ex-Dartmouth College president John Kemeny: “The man ignorant of mathematics will be increasingly limited in his grasp of the main forces of civilization.” The GM bailout may or may not have been a good idea. But GM is back now, its new cars range from decent to world-classhttp://www.extremetech.com/extreme/100849-clueless-on-tech-how-gm-messed-up-the-chevrolet-sonic, and it’s on a pace that might see it earning $10 billion in profits this year. On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com wrote: Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204653604577251461989702208.html --R On 3/1/12 8:28 PM, OK Don wrote: Seems someone is in the pocket of the oil companies and is spewing FUD: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120145-chevy-volt-battery-life-fail-or-fox-news-fail-somebody-has-the-math-wrong Pity the poor Chevrolet Volt. It’s built by GM, the company that took a multi-billion-dollar taxpayer bailout. It’s a car that comes with a $7,500 government rebate. Now it’s being dissed by Fox News and chain-mailers for costing more to drive than a gasoline-powered car selling for a third as much. GM got hosed, not so much by Fox News as by a parallel chain letter (“Cost to Operate a Chevy Volt”) that overstated the cost of electricity by a factor of 10. The Volt costs a lot to buy but it’s clearly cheaper to run than a gasoline-only car. Snopes.com did a good job deconstructing the chain mail. On battery power, the Volt costs around 5-7 cents a mile to drive, less not more than a gas-engine car. Here’s the backstory. Perhaps tired of being dinged by Fox for the bailout thing and for a compact car that costs almost $40,000 after rebate ($46,500 list), GM put a press fleet Chevrolet Volt in the hands of Eric Bolling of Fox’s The Five (video embedded below). Maybe they thought Bolling would feel the same kind of love for the Volt that tree huggers experience upon climbing into their first Toyota Prius. Not quite. Bolling criticized the battery-power performance of the Volt, about 25 miles, when the Nissan Leaf approaches 100 miles. Bolling noted that, two days in a row, “The car ran out of electricity in the Lincoln Tunnel on my way to work,” which prompted a co-host Kimberly Guilfoyle to pipe up and say, “I’d rather roller skate backwards in the Lincoln Tunnel than drive that thing and break down.” Bolling added, “Why would you put out an electric car that gets only 25 miles?” The show mistook the Volt and Leaf as the same kind of car. The Leaf is an electric-only vehicle, good for 75 miles, maybe 100, then you park it. GM calls the Volt an extended range vehicle; “hybrid with a big battery” would be a good description, too. Where a hybrid might get two miles from its battery, the Volt with its bigger battery pack gets 25 to (on a very good day) 50 miles. When the Volt runs out of battery power, it auto-switches to the small gasoline engine and soldiers on for 300 miles. The reason for the medium-size battery is because most daily driving is less than 25 miles, which means the car can be charged overnight, and for longer trips it switches to gasoline. The “Cost to Operate a Chevy Volt” chain letter went beyond the Fair and Balanced Network’s opinion that the Volt wasn’t a good deal financially for taxpayer or Volt-owner. Using a figure of $1.16 per kilowatt hour for electricity, the chain letter concluded, “So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more than 6 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across the country.” Electricity actually costs about $.127 per kilowatt hour now; a tenth of what the chain email states. The battery pack stores 16 kWh of energy, but, says GM, not all 16 kWh are used. A full charge adds 9.6 kWh that can be used to move the Volt and another 3-4 kWh are used in charging on a 120-volt system, less with a more efficient 220-volt charger. So a full charge on 120V power consumes 13.4 kWh of electricity, or $1.57. The Fox News 25-mile jaunt thus cost 6.3 cents per mile; if the Volt got 35 miles on a charge (not unusual), it would be 4.5 cents per mile. A compact car getting 35 mpg would cost 10 cents per mile using $3.50-a-gallon gasoline. The chain letter’s claim that it would take three times as long to cross the US as a gasoline car assumes the Volt owner would stop to refill the gas tank *and* recharge the battery each time, meaning you’d drive 4.5 hours then stop for 10 hours, drive 4.5, stop for 10, limping across America. That’s absurd but that’s what you expect when you get letters prefaced by “Urgent. You MUST read this and pass it along.” A response on a GM blog was right on target when it started by quoting mathematician and ex-Dartmouth College president John Kemeny: “The man ignorant of mathematics will be increasingly limited in his grasp of the main forces of civilization.” The GM bailout may or may not have been a good idea. But GM is back now, its new cars range from decent to world-classhttp://www.extremetech.com/extreme/100849-clueless-on-tech-how-gm-messed-up-the-chevrolet-sonic, and it’s on a pace that might see it earning $10 billion in profits this year. On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Hans Neureiterdiese...@gmail.com wrote: Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204909104577235241393891490.html --R On 3/1/12 10:58 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204653604577251461989702208.html --R On 3/1/12 8:28 PM, OK Don wrote: Seems someone is in the pocket of the oil companies and is spewing FUD: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120145-chevy-volt-battery-life-fail-or-fox-news-fail-somebody-has-the-math-wrong ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Peugeot is losing money. They are in talks with GM about some sort of alliance. http://www.freep.com/article/20120222/BUSINESS01/202220465/France-confirms-GM-Peugeot-Citroen-negotiating-possible-alliance Gerry On 26 February 2012 22:33, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, and get over all this nonsense with electric scooters that are of limited usefulness in all but very restricted circumstances. Even a Pious does not do much better than that, and probably not as good in highway driving. I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R On 2/26/12 10:21 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiterdiese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2113/4835 - Release Date: 02/27/12 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Sorry to hear they're losing money. They haven't been available here in Canada for decades now. I've always liked them, and I think they're still some of the best looking cars in Europe. I drove a small one all over the North of Italy, and it was a blast. It was a 2.0L engine, which was the largest the rental place could offer me. I filled it up (with premium), which was selling for just over twice what premium was in Canada at the time. Not sure how many litres to fill the tank, but I got near 1000kms out of it, and I wasn't messing about. I took full advantage of the Autostrada, and all the mountain passes! ;-) It was just a basic rental car, but everything felt good...the brakes, steering, and manual trans. Just enough understeer to keep the old ladies out of the ditch, but not so much that a hooligan like me couldn't still have a little fun through the twisty bits. hee hee. Ed 300E On 27 February 2012 10:53, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: Peugeot is losing money. They are in talks with GM about some sort of alliance. http://www.freep.com/article/20120222/BUSINESS01/202220465/France-confirms-GM-Peugeot-Citroen-negotiating-possible-alliance Gerry On 26 February 2012 22:33, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, and get over all this nonsense with electric scooters that are of limited usefulness in all but very restricted circumstances. Even a Pious does not do much better than that, and probably not as good in highway driving. I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R On 2/26/12 10:21 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiterdiese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
I would suggest that one of the main reasons for not seeing more diesels in North America, is the stigma they still carry as being dirty oil burners. There is a large market of potential diesels buyers, who not only don't remember the problems GM had in the 80s, but also weren't driving, or perhaps even born at the time. Gas has been, and is still quite cheap here, but if things continue as they are, maybe the marketing guys can use the potential savings in running costs of a diesel, over the slightly higher purchase price, to make them look like a good alternative to gas, or plug in cars. Diesels have also been pitched as the utilitarian alternative (which many interpret as truck like). In Europe, you can find every high end car, fully loaded, with a diesel engine. Here, they are often stripped down versions, of their gasser counterpart. Again, maybe perceptions, and choices will change in the coming years. Ed 300E On 27 February 2012 14:35, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars (an exception is of course made for pickup trucks) and while some manufacturers have met the requirements most consider it not worth it because as you've said the average American sheeple doesn't see the benefit. The one I'd like is the Subaru which supposedly makes better power than its gasser cousin while consuming much less fuel. Supposedly gets 60mpg which I presume is imperial gallons but still. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:35:17 -0600 From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: canzcij8m4ftgtz5dphkpnud3pjeckmlxvtauubvyj+exzo5...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
I think with half the marketing money used on the Volt and a decent car from one of the big 3 you could pretty easily reverse that notion. Especially with something like the Subaru I mentioned before... I'm of the opinion that most auto execs are as dumb (or dumber even) than movie studio execs. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:43:19 -0500 From: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: 06A0B30346F44342B0150CF556575489@wiltonPC Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilto ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Supplemental. Haven't checked lately, but when I lived in FL few years ago, the FL tax on Diesel was double the tax on gasoline. Makes me wonder about the whole price structure considering Diesel was cheaper than gas during the 70s fuel shortages. Specifically, how much cost per gallon is fed tax, state tax, and EPA cost (i.e. gummite cost). -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ritchey Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Well, the higher cost of Diesel has become a detrimental factor only in the last coupla years, but in years past, the cost was by far the OTHER way. BTW, yesterday I paid $3.95/gal for some of that ten-cent fuel. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Curt Raymond wrote: Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars Worse yet, the CARB rules are impossible, and most makers won't touch the US market unless they can move that product in CA. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Gerry Archer wrote: Peugeot is losing money. They are in talks with GM about some sort of alliance. I thought Renault and American Motors did the Alliance. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
A Subaru MPG observation. I have a 2008 Outback with the NA 2.5L boxer motor. Plenty of power considering previous car was NA 300TD. With all the rotating AWD stuff, this will never be an MPG champ; but conditions are everything. I get close to 40 mpg cruising at 50 mph on a country road providing the engine is at operating temperature. But I only get and somewhere in the low teens for the first mile or two when the engine is cold. Of course, I get zero mpg at a stop light; every time I look there seem to be more stop lights (the only justification for hybrids IMO). -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:18 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars (an exception is of course made for pickup trucks) and while some manufacturers have met the requirements most consider it not worth it because as you've said the average American sheeple doesn't see the benefit. The one I'd like is the Subaru which supposedly makes better power than its gasser cousin while consuming much less fuel. Supposedly gets 60mpg which I presume is imperial gallons but still. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:35:17 -0600 From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: canzcij8m4ftgtz5dphkpnud3pjeckmlxvtauubvyj+exzo5...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Scott Ritchey wrote: A Subaru MPG observation. I have a 2008 Outback with the NA 2.5L boxer motor. Plenty of power considering previous car was NA 300TD. With all the rotating AWD stuff, this will never be an MPG champ; but conditions are everything. I get close to 40 mpg cruising at 50 mph on a country road providing the engine is at operating temperature. I suspect I'll never do that in a 4matic wagon. In the summer, I can hit 37-39mpg in a twin cam 2.4L Achieva at 45-65mph (that car does not care how fast you're going, as long as you're going fast enough to get it locked into 4th and you're not going over 65) But I only get and somewhere in the low teens for the first mile or two when the engine is cold. Takes the Olds 1-3 miles to get the trip average over 20mpg, depending on the weather. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
MA adopted CA rules too on diesels, the reason being unclear except it is a very liberal state full of hacks and idiots (oops, redundant). That sorta killed the diesel option in that part of the country too I think. Not sure where they are now, but some years ago that was the case. Curt will probably have a comment on that, being more recent vintage in the state. Maybe he could suggest a higher tax on them --R On 2/27/12 6:06 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars Worse yet, the CARB rules are impossible, and most makers won't touch the US market unless they can move that product in CA. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Fed tax on petrol is 0.18, #2 diesel is 0.25 per gallon clay On Feb 27, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: Supplemental. Haven't checked lately, but when I lived in FL few years ago, the FL tax on Diesel was double the tax on gasoline. Makes me wonder about the whole price structure considering Diesel was cheaper than gas during the 70s fuel shortages. Specifically, how much cost per gallon is fed tax, state tax, and EPA cost (i.e. gummite cost). -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ritchey Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
In the great PNW, we have bioD at $0.28 discount over #2 diesel clay On Feb 27, 2012, at 3:00 PM, WILTON wrote: Well, the higher cost of Diesel has become a detrimental factor only in the last coupla years, but in years past, the cost was by far the OTHER way. BTW, yesterday I paid $3.95/gal for some of that ten-cent fuel. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
clay monroe wrote: Fed tax on petrol is 0.18, #2 diesel is 0.25 per gallon ...unless you're driving one of the vehicles that does 30,000 times the road damage of a passenger car, then you get a discount on the road diesel tax. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
just to be fair, let's point out that there are several car manufacturers who are making diesels that are available for sale right now in California, so, it's obviously not impossible even though there are Particulate issues that need to be addressed when burning Diesel fuel that aren't an issue with Petrol. also, before we lay all the blame on GM for Amerikuns bad perceptions of diesel, lets not forget the Trucking Lobby that manged to keep Amerika using some of (if not) the poorest quality diesel fuel in the world for as long as they did on the premise that a few cents more per gallon would put them all out of business and be the end of the world. not only did that make Amerikas drivers tired of the emissions coming out of the exhaust pipes of the diesels they saw on the road, it meant that the implementation of the Clean Diesel technology that was available on most of the rest of the planet was delayed in the USA since many of the Clean Diesel vehicles wouldn't run on the cheap #2 that the Truckers Lobby was forcing us to use here. cheers! e '85 300D (204K miles; ~80K/7 years so far on commercially-made BioDiesel that costs less than #2.) On 27/Feb/12 15:06, Mitch Haley wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars Worse yet, the CARB rules are impossible, and most makers won't touch the US market unless they can move that product in CA. ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Only if you can't plan ahead farther than yesterday and are bad at math. Today on the way home diesel was $4.19 at the expensive place and gas was $3.69. Thats a 13% difference for a fuel with 30% more BTUs... Of course my in-laws are convinced they're ahead in playing the lottery. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:46:10 -0500 From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: F8966355E0A543E2B9BEE0BD079071CC@ScottPC Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
There was a year or so where you couldn't get diesels here but VW, MB and BMW all stepped up and got them in. I still don't understand the exemption for diesel pickup trucks. Each one of those must spew out 10 cars worth of black smoke... -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:17:31 -0500 From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: 4f4c0f0b.8000...@constructivity.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MA adopted CA rules too on diesels, the reason being unclear except it is a very liberal state full of hacks and idiots (oops, redundant). That sorta killed the diesel option in that part of the country too I think. Not sure where they are now, but some years ago that was the case. Curt will probably have a comment on that, being more recent vintage in the state. Maybe he could suggest a higher tax on them --R On 2/27/12 6:06 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: Partially right I think. The EPA rules are almost absurdly tight for diesel cars Worse yet, the CARB rules are impossible, and most makers won't touch the US market unless they can move that product in CA. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Really? How does one apply for it? I wonder if my accountant knows about that. I've got a years worth of receipts. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:22:57 -0500 From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: 4f4c1051.4020...@voyager.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed clay monroe wrote: Fed tax on petrol is 0.18, #2 diesel is 0.25 per gallon ...unless you're driving one of the vehicles that does 30,000 times the road damage of a passenger car, then you get a discount on the road diesel tax. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Curt Raymond wrote: Really? How does one apply for it? I wonder if my accountant knows about that. I've got a years worth of receipts. Drive a big truck. For hire. You need to have authority to haul interstate commerce, or work for someone who does. Then you need to licensed accordingly. And be subject to the Hours of Service and log your compliance. And you will need to document the miles driven in each state. And in most states pay road tax, often quarterly. And go through the scale houses. And follow the 10,001 other requirements the federal and state governments impose upon commercial carriers. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Don't know what taxes might be, but right now diesel is tracking about $0.25/gallon more than regular unleaded. That's pretty might been the range in Florida for as long as I can recall. Dan On Feb 27, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: Supplemental. Haven't checked lately, but when I lived in FL few years ago, the FL tax on Diesel was double the tax on gasoline. Makes me wonder about the whole price structure considering Diesel was cheaper than gas during the 70s fuel shortages. Specifically, how much cost per gallon is fed tax, state tax, and EPA cost (i.e. gummite cost). -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ritchey Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The price and availability of diesel fuel is a factor too. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:43 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Yep. GM ruined/destroyed Diesel market in USA with the Diesel crap they put in cars in late '70's and early '80's. Wilton - Original Message - From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Umm - wrong. It's not the EPA, we can buy Diesels here now. Just go to your local MB dealer (or VW, etc,). It's the lack of an informed market here. They're not going to bring cars over that they can't sell because the US still thinks of the GM Diesels from the 80's. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Smart alec. I think Mitch was suggesting us small-timers could get back some tax money for damage we were not doing to the roads. I burn aroun 700 gallons of diesel a year, it'd be worth getting something back. -Curt Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:32:57 -0600 From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: 20120227203257.8778c121.fmi...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Curt Raymond wrote: Really? How does one apply for it? I wonder if my accountant knows about that. I've got a years worth of receipts. Drive a big truck. For hire. You need to have authority to haul interstate commerce, or work for someone who does. Then you need to licensed accordingly. And be subject to the Hours of Service and log your compliance. And you will need to document the miles driven in each state. And in most states pay road tax, often quarterly. And go through the scale houses. And follow the 10,001 other requirements the federal and state governments impose upon commercial carriers. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Curt Raymond wrote: Smart alec. I think Mitch was suggesting us small-timers could get back some tax money for damage we were not doing to the roads. I burn aroun 700 gallons of diesel a year, it'd be worth getting something back. Nope. I was saying that those who do the damage (and a fully loaded semi does the work of thousands of cars when it comes to breaking down a concrete freeway) can get 5 cents off with a 3 axle permit. OTOH, they might have to pay road use tax via IRS form 2290. If your taxable weight is 75,000lb or higher, you'd have to buy 11,000 gallons of fuel a year to break even on the road use tax from your 5 cents per gallon savings. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Mitch Haley wrote: If your taxable weight is 75,000lb or higher, you'd have to buy 11,000 gallons of fuel a year to break even on the road use tax from your 5 cents per gallon savings. At 5 miles per gallon (typical for an older truck. Modern - especially aero - can get 6.5 or even 7 mpg) that's just over 1,000 miles per week. For typical loads, any driver only getting 1,000 miles a week is going to go broke quick. 2,500 mile per week is about average, so that 11,000 gallons is probably not more than 6 months worth. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
BioDiesel for .28 less than #2? That's gone the other way in the 10 years I've had an interest. I tried some bio in my first 300D. At that time in 2003, it was $.50 more than #2D. I'll have to check prices for bio in Portland since I don't believe it's available out here in the westside 'burbs. Kevin in Hillsboro, Oregon 1977 240D 315Kmi, Liesel the Diesel ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
The '07 Dodge pickups with the Cummins 6.7L engines were some of the first to be equipped with Diesel particulate filters (DPF's). They have very little odor. The 240D is another story :d! Kevin in Hillsboro, Oregon 1977 240D 315Kmi, Liesel ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Allan Streib wrote: Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. I suspect that if it really got 30mpg including the 25 miles at infinite MPG in the average, then either Eric is a horrible driver or he was trying to discredit the car. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
This is not the only review i the press, but it is the only one that's this negative. Either something was wrong with the car, or something's fishy about the review. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Allan Streib wrote: Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. I suspect that if it really got 30mpg including the 25 miles at infinite MPG in the average, then either Eric is a horrible driver or he was trying to discredit the car. Mitch. __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
For some reason, they seem incapable of marketing the reality of the car. It can run on batteries only, it can use the gas engine to power the electric motor, it can run on gas only, or any ratio of gas/electric with the planetary drive sustem. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Walt Zarnoch zarnoch...@gmail.com wrote: Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, and get over all this nonsense with electric scooters that are of limited usefulness in all but very restricted circumstances. Even a Pious does not do much better than that, and probably not as good in highway driving. I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R On 2/26/12 10:21 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiterdiese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
I agree. There are many great cars that could and should be offered to the North American market, which aren't. While this may not be everyone's dream car, I bet they could sell millions here. I know it's just what I'd like, for running Rover to the park, and to do the shopping in. I'd trade my minivan in a heartbeat for one. http://www.conceptcarz.com/z21157/Chevrolet-Cruze-Station-Wagon.aspx Ed 300E On 26 February 2012 22:33, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, and get over all this nonsense with electric scooters that are of limited usefulness in all but very restricted circumstances. Even a Pious does not do much better than that, and probably not as good in highway driving. I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R On 2/26/12 10:21 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote: Saw one in 2K10 at google I/O, they were still billing it as an electric car at that point, no mention of a fuel system. My understanding is that it was designed as a commuter car to get you from point A.0 to A.5 since point B.0 was a bit too far away. Walt On Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM, Allan Streibstr...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Hans Neureiterdiese...@gmail.com writes: For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. I thought the Volt was a series hybrid, the engine powers a generator which drives the wheel motors. It has a modest battery pack to recover energy from braking and to help out off the line, but it was never really intended to go far on batteries alone. Is that correct? Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. Disappointing. A modern diesel in a similar-sized car would do close to double that. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Amen to that! On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Last summer in Spain I rented a Peugeot diesel wagon, 5spd, it was brand new when I picked it up at the airport. I was pleasantly surprised at what a nice car it was -- hauled 4 of us and all our stuff for 9 days on high-speed roads and back roads and in town, A/C running (blowing ice cold!) and I figured (with all the conversions of liters and kms) that it was getting over 40mpg. I really wonder why we cannot buy cars like that here, That is easy: EPA (Otherwise known as gummit) Or is it Gummit, otherwise known as EPA?) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Amen to that! On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: I don't have strong opinions about them otherwise except -- let the car companies build and sell them without subsidies from the gummint (i.e., you and me, or those who pay taxes) and let them live or die in the market. If someone wants to pay huge money for one, so be it, I hope they are happy. But don't make me pay for their indulgence when there are much better alternatives out there (e.g., the Peugeot diesel wagon). --R -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ And Amen to the original and the Amen ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Who ever wrote this made a small mistake. I pay $0.12 per KWH. A full charge will cost ~$ 2.00 or $0.08/mile vs. $0.125/mile on gas. On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com wrote: Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Ah but grasshopper... you are Green and it shows you love Obama and his green program. Priceless ... Right??? To the truly indoctrinated who have been inseminated [it seems anally] with the seed of progressive thought no amount of other peoples money should be spared to feel good about saving the planet.. Snarkey math, spin news, deceptive loans, outright lies, self serving politicians [of any color or party], it's all fair and balanced . Right? I feel so much better I feel so much better I feel so much better. keep repeating that until you believe it... Gotta run... dinner is ready... it's red meat with a side dish of spotted owl... Grant... On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 4:24 AM, Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com wrote: Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Haters gonna hate. What you don't get is that most driving is short trips. So for a 25 mile daily round trip (or a series of trips that add up to 25 miles) you'd pay ~$2/day. A 32mpg car on $3.50 gas pays $2.73. After 42,465 trips you've paid for the car. Thats only 116 years if you drove 25 miles every day. The mileage will also depend on what kind of driving you do. These cars are intended to get decent mileage in the city where regular gas cars do poorly. Buying one for a mostly highway commute is foolish. Also the Volt is bigger than a $15,000 car and has more creature comforts. Am I saying the Volt is a great car? No but change has to start somewhere. You're a crab bucket (Google it), just want to drag everybody back down because you didn't think of it first. -Curt Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:49:54 -0600 From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Message-ID: caojz3l8kdquxphdda0gui1qumok40f3ywghkjexeboxlny3...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Who ever wrote this made a small mistake. I pay $0.12 per KWH. A full charge will cost ~$ 2.00 or $0.08/mile vs. $0.125/mile on gas. On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com wrote: Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -?to charge the Volt?s batteries ?- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
My elec. costs about $0.09 per kwh. National average is about $0.10 per kwh. What is it about Eric Bolling's elec. that makes it cost nearly 13 times what mine costs? Maybe it comes in on 24 wheels or is hauled in on some ridiculous, special vehicle with a hole (gold-plated sunroof) in its top. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
The entire electric car story is fraught with hyperbole. As an engineer, just give me the facts, not the bullshit. I'll make my own decisions. It has nothing to do with hate or love. Fact: If I spend $46.000 for a car that I can only drive in 25 mile runs, what is the cost/benefit ratio compared with, say, taking a taxi or a limo to work on a cost per mile or cost per day calculation. How many days do I have to drive the Volt to break even on investment? So far, for the Volt and other electric cars, the math shows it to be a bad investment, without factoring in any maintenance issues, or unknown future design flaws that show up in an unproven platform. On the other hand, my 30 yr. old 300D has a long successful history with a known fuel per mile cost and a much lower purchase cost. Easy choice, job security for Q and all is well. Grant... On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: My elec. costs about $0.09 per kwh. National average is about $0.10 per kwh. What is it about Eric Bolling's elec. that makes it cost nearly 13 times what mine costs? Maybe it comes in on 24 wheels or is hauled in on some ridiculous, special vehicle with a hole (gold-plated sunroof) in its top. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Zackly! Wilton - Original Message - From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The entire electric car story is fraught with hyperbole. As an engineer, just give me the facts, not the bullshit. I'll make my own decisions. It has nothing to do with hate or love. Fact: If I spend $46.000 for a car that I can only drive in 25 mile runs, what is the cost/benefit ratio compared with, say, taking a taxi or a limo to work on a cost per mile or cost per day calculation. How many days do I have to drive the Volt to break even on investment? So far, for the Volt and other electric cars, the math shows it to be a bad investment, without factoring in any maintenance issues, or unknown future design flaws that show up in an unproven platform. On the other hand, my 30 yr. old 300D has a long successful history with a known fuel per mile cost and a much lower purchase cost. Easy choice, job security for Q and all is well. Grant... On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: My elec. costs about $0.09 per kwh. National average is about $0.10 per kwh. What is it about Eric Bolling's elec. that makes it cost nearly 13 times what mine costs? Maybe it comes in on 24 wheels or is hauled in on some ridiculous, special vehicle with a hole (gold-plated sunroof) in its top. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Yup. There's a lot we don't know about this new type of electric car. I wonder: what will happen to battery capacity with repeated deep discharge?, when will the battery need to be replaced (and why)?, what will replacement cost?, what happens to the old battery?, what is the life and service requirements for the electric drive train? Batteries have always been the issue. I worked n the lunar rover over 40 years ago and little has changed in that regard. Don't get me wrong. Electric cars have great promise and one day I expect that's what I (or my great grandchildren) will drive. But the Volt/Leaf came about rather suddenly so there's not much track record. And I have to wonder why GM gave up on the Volt last time 'round. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:05 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The entire electric car story is fraught with hyperbole. As an engineer, just give me the facts, not the bullshit. I'll make my own decisions. It has nothing to do with hate or love. Fact: If I spend $46.000 for a car that I can only drive in 25 mile runs, what is the cost/benefit ratio compared with, say, taking a taxi or a limo to work on a cost per mile or cost per day calculation. How many days do I have to drive the Volt to break even on investment? So far, for the Volt and other electric cars, the math shows it to be a bad investment, without factoring in any maintenance issues, or unknown future design flaws that show up in an unproven platform. On the other hand, my 30 yr. old 300D has a long successful history with a known fuel per mile cost and a much lower purchase cost. Easy choice, job security for Q and all is well. Grant... On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: My elec. costs about $0.09 per kwh. National average is about $0.10 per kwh. What is it about Eric Bolling's elec. that makes it cost nearly 13 times what mine costs? Maybe it comes in on 24 wheels or is hauled in on some ridiculous, special vehicle with a hole (gold-plated sunroof) in its top. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even (assuming the cost for electricity --to charge the Volt's batteries -- remained unchanged). The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.REALLY? -- Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX '82 300SD '01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://m ail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts
Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas
Most missed my point. I copied the junk off the Internet and immediately made a comment what is wrong with it. Obama? Has nothing to do with that, but it is used to make him look bad. That's my point. That Chicago mobster would not even know what the talk is all about. It is wrong to slander the poor fu#$%r for all that is controversial. I am not pro or con Obama, nor am I a donkey or elephant, The majority voted for what we have, from the local HOA all the way to Washington. My humble opinion is that the majority of all the people are spoiled. ignorant, dumb or all of the above and complain rather than think and be proactive. Enough for politics, religion and opinions. The Electric/Hybrid is an improvement, but it is not the answer. Cconsidering that it took tens of thousand of years from man discovering fire and a mere hundred some years from discovering coal and harnessing steam to get where we are now. I remember the days when airbags ran into heavy objections. How do we recycle/remediate that junk? Never became an issue as far as I know. Recycling LiIon cells, well... I retired from an engineering position with a national company in the business of remediation of hazardous materials. NASA hired us to do research and testing to dispose of Lithium batteries. Not feasible under all the governing rules (EPA, FHSA, NMSA, CFR, OSHA, etc). Well, we throw them in to a furnace and look the other way and ignore emissions. (Don't do that at home!) Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Yup. There's a lot we don't know about this new type of electric car. I wonder: what will happen to battery capacity with repeated deep discharge?, when will the battery need to be replaced (and why)?, what will replacement cost?, what happens to the old battery?, what is the life and service requirements for the electric drive train? Batteries have always been the issue. I worked n the lunar rover over 40 years ago and little has changed in that regard. Don't get me wrong. Electric cars have great promise and one day I expect that's what I (or my great grandchildren) will drive. But the Volt/Leaf came about rather suddenly so there's not much track record. And I have to wonder why GM gave up on the Volt last time 'round. Scott -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:05 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas The entire electric car story is fraught with hyperbole. As an engineer, just give me the facts, not the bullshit. I'll make my own decisions. It has nothing to do with hate or love. Fact: If I spend $46.000 for a car that I can only drive in 25 mile runs, what is the cost/benefit ratio compared with, say, taking a taxi or a limo to work on a cost per mile or cost per day calculation. How many days do I have to drive the Volt to break even on investment? So far, for the Volt and other electric cars, the math shows it to be a bad investment, without factoring in any maintenance issues, or unknown future design flaws that show up in an unproven platform. On the other hand, my 30 yr. old 300D has a long successful history with a known fuel per mile cost and a much lower purchase cost. Easy choice, job security for Q and all is well. Grant... On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: My elec. costs about $0.09 per kwh. National average is about $0.10 per kwh. What is it about Eric Bolling's elec. that makes it cost nearly 13 times what mine costs? Maybe it comes in on 24 wheels or is hauled in on some ridiculous, special vehicle with a hole (gold-plated sunroof) in its top. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Hans Neureiter diese...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List Mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:24 AM Subject: [MBZ] Volt vs. Gas Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be 20 mph averge speed. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16
