Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Robin Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted Nah, the candle is being burned from both ends. The point is that the small ones _are_ being poached. If you work in the same order as the poacher, work on lots of exponents will be replicated. If you work in the opposite order, only one exponent will be accidentally triple-checked. A solution, then, is not to do small exponants at all. Regards Brian Beesley Daran G. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
- Original Message - From: Maciej Hrynczyszyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mersenne List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted ...what should I do in order not to waste my (my A1200) time working on numbers which may be taken over by someone else in some uncertain future? Currently I'm finishing my first exponent (that's M7505207 double-check)... Don't disclose your exponants to a list read by Aaron Blosser. :-) M, -- Maciej Hrynczyszyn banshee*uoo.univ.szczecin.pl _ __ __ _ __| | __ _ Daran G _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
- Original Message - From: Bruce Leenstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted So I would urge George and Scott to at least change it so that -- if an exponent has been assigned to more than one person -- it stores the last two names until a valid doublecheck proves the exponent composite. Better would be to store every name until a valid doublecheck proves the exponant composite. The extra storage would be negligable. Bruce Leenstra mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Daran G. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
- Original Message - From: Aaron Blosser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:18 PM Subject: RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted it just bothers me when someone decides to do Google searches in some sort of attempt to find information on someone in particular. That's the sort of thing that borders on stalking, and it wouldn't be the first time someone's done a Google search and then rejoiced that they found such a juicy tidbit of information from my past. :) I don't see anybody 'rejoicing'. Quite a few people here seem to be bothered about poaching. You don't seem to be bothered about that, so I wonder why anyone should be bothered about what bothers you. That's okay, because in so doing they've just proved themselves to be a kook and there's no longer any doubt as to whether I should ignore them. :) No change there, then. Personally I can think of at least two characteristics of kookdom exhibited by you - a total disregard for the feelings of others, and making absurd stalking allegations against them. Regards Daran G. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
- Original Message - From: Steve Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted no way! i understand that statement is nonsense. morality ethics are not defined by people's own ideas, they are defined *absolutely* and NOT by any human. just because today's politically-correct NewSpeak people have redefined morality to mean whatever an individual thinks is moral, that doesn't mean that morality has actually been redefined. moral relativism is *bullshit* anywhere you find it, including here on this project. Could we please keep off-topic philosophical points off the list? People who feel strongly otherwise from you might be tempted to reply. The result could be that a heated discussion is inflicted upon those who have no interest in it. And that would be immoral, DOWN WITH EXPONENT-POACHERS as well as all WEAKLING MORAL RELATIVISTS, Death to the extremists! /eli Daran G. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
...what should I do in order not to waste my (my A1200) time working on numbers which may be taken over by someone else in some uncertain future? Currently I'm finishing my first exponent (that's M7505207 double-check)... Don't disclose your exponants to a list read by Aaron Blosser. :-) Very funny. :) Hey, I contribute more computer time (with permission nowadays!!) than a lot, so you can all quit your belly-achin'. :) I haven't poached in a long time, probably since the changes to Primenet which made it unnecessary (I don't even recall how long ago that happened), nor do I think anyone else should poach now. Only reason I did it before was because there was no methodology to rehab stale exponents, so I figured someone had to do it. That's all, end of story. PS - Be sure to read everything I say with the proper attitude... I really am trying to smile and be friendly whenever I say anything... I would have guessed my smiley emoticons would have given it away, but I think some folks take me way too seriously... one of the problems of email. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Daran wrote: Better would be to store every name until a valid doublecheck proves the exponant composite. The extra storage would be negligable. I'd suggest that names not be stored for exponents that have been unreserved, or where the name was last assigned that exponent more than a year ago. It would be relatively trivial to grab and release every exponent in PrimeNet that is not currently assigned, thus getting dibs on it. It would also prevent people from using expirations from getting around the first measure, such as by reserving a large swath of exponents just below a major milestone and then waiting for them to expire. When the region just below M39 goes to double checks this would be fairly trivial to do. It might not hold someone back who just cannot wait, but it should send a pretty clear message that this kind of thing is unwelcome. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On 7 Feb 2002, at 14:11, Daran wrote: Nah, the candle is being burned from both ends. The point is that the small ones _are_ being poached. If you work in the same order as the poacher, work on lots of exponents will be replicated. If you work in the opposite order, only one exponent will be accidentally triple-checked. A solution, then, is not to do small exponants at all. This suggestion is impractical as well as mildly facetious. If you have clients running 24x7 with automatic PrimeNet comms (the least intrusive method, from the point of view of the user) then you get new assignments at random times - the client checks how much work it has left every 65536 iterations. So you are liable to get small exponents from time to time. If you use manual client checkin to PrimeNet, or manual testing forms, then you _can_ pick a time of day when you are _unlikely_ to receive small exponents - but even this is no guarantee. Mary deliberately got a big bunch of small exponents when they became available, presumably because she felt she would be able to clear them in a reasonable time on a reasonably reliable system (or systems). In this respect she's actually acting with the same motivation as the poachers, but attempting to stay within the cooperative spirit of the project. It is for this reason that she is rightly upset about being poached. Regards Brian Beesley _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:06:27PM -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for Mary's current predicament, with that block of small exponents you have, my best suggestion is to reverse the order of the lines in worktodo.ini so that the _largest_ ones are done first. Intermediate checkins to PrimeNet will then cause unstarted assignments which are no longer neccessary to be automatically removed. Of course if one _keeps_ doing this, then the smallest exponents never get processed (and perhaps they become more likely to be poached) :-) -- --- Robin Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Oxford University Computing Services --- Web: http://www.cynic.org.uk/ --- (+44)(0)1865: 273212 (work) 273275 (fax) Mobile: 07776 235326 --- _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
That's my only point. Rude, yes. Morally/ethically/legally there's really no problem with doing it. legally, who knows - maybe there will be a court case some day if some awful person poaches the 10M exponent ... but morally/ethically there is obviously a huge problem with poaching exponents. (obvious to anyone who has at least a tiny clue about what morality ethics *mean* .) Rob On the basis of legality I would tend to agree with you Rob however I beg to differ on the basis of ethics and morality, Rob however I guess everyone is entitled to their own idea of Rob what is morally and ethically ok. no way! i understand that statement is nonsense. morality ethics are not defined by people's own ideas, they are defined *absolutely* and NOT by any human. just because today's politically-correct NewSpeak people have redefined morality to mean whatever an individual thinks is moral, that doesn't mean that morality has actually been redefined. moral relativism is *bullshit* anywhere you find it, including here on this project. while i'm at it, due to lots of P4 PC hardware problems i have a bunch of doublecheck exponents checked out that will probably never get processed by my re-re-re-re-formatted P4 PC. so am now discovering that i can unreserve them from a different machine than the one to which they were originally assigned. and i'm freeing a bunch in the 7M range presently... if these exponents are of interest to anyone, please have at them - primenet will probably assign them to you if you request doublechecks 5 minutes after i send this email. DOWN WITH EXPONENT-POACHERS as well as all WEAKLING MORAL RELATIVISTS, /eli ps - subtle, aren't i? ;) Rob Rob Reid http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=rob+reid Rob 'Stalk' away ;) Rob _ Rob Unsubscribe list info -- Rob http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ Rob -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Aaron, i really know nothing about your past except what i've read here. it's your current comments re poaching which i have found objectionable. as you can see, i do feel free to comment regardless of your possible lack of appreciation for my comments. if you repented apologized for your alleged-previous-poaching-transgressions i might think differently, but you appear to be unapologetic. (but i don't really expect you to care what *i* think!!!) really - to each his own. i do recognize your right to think that your current pro-poaching comments are moral even if actually they are not, just as i recognize a moral-relativist's right to so delude themselves on whatever matter of immorality they like. while these folks may be deluding themselves they aren't fooling me - and i'm plenty foolish on my own accord! /e Aaron See, it's the snide comments like that that I don't Aaron appreciate. Aaron It's attitudes like yours that are more likely to drive Aaron people away from GIMPS than whether or not someone poaches Aaron an assignment and results in the occasional triple check. Aaron Fortunately I happen to know that most people who Aaron participate are nice folks. So the fact that a couple Aaron people on here want to make continued references to my past Aaron in an attempt to paint me as an uncaring and morally Aaron reprehensible person isn't enough to dissuade me from Aaron continued participation. :) Aaron _ Aaron Unsubscribe list info -- Aaron http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime Aaron FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
That's my only point. Rude, yes. Morally/ethically/legally there's really no problem with doing it. legally, who knows - maybe there will be a court case some day if some awful person poaches the 10M exponent ... but morally/ethically there is obviously a huge problem with poaching exponents. (obvious to anyone who has at least a tiny clue about what morality ethics *mean* .) Rob On the basis of legality I would tend to agree with you Rob however I beg to differ on the basis of ethics and morality, Rob however I guess everyone is entitled to their own idea of Rob what is morally and ethically ok. no way! i understand that statement is nonsense. morality ethics are not defined by people's own ideas, they are defined *absolutely* and NOT by any human. just because today's politically-correct NewSpeak people have redefined morality to mean whatever an individual thinks is moral, that doesn't mean that morality has actually been redefined. moral relativism is *bullshit* anywhere you find it, including here on this project. while i'm at it, due to lots of P4 PC hardware problems i have a bunch of doublecheck exponents checked out that will probably never get processed by my re-re-re-re-formatted P4 PC. so am now discovering that i can unreserve them from a different machine than the one to which they were originally assigned. and i'm freeing a bunch in the 7M range presently... if these exponents are of interest to anyone, please have at them - primenet will probably assign them to you if you request doublechecks 5 minutes after i send this email. DOWN WITH EXPONENT-POACHERS as well as all WEAKLING MORAL RELATIVISTS, /eli ps - subtle, aren't i? ;) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Aaron, i really know nothing about your past except what i've read here. it's your current comments re poaching which i have found objectionable. as you can see, i do feel free to comment regardless of your possible lack of appreciation for my comments. if you repented apologized for your alleged-previous-poaching-transgressions i might think differently, but you appear to be unapologetic. (but i don't really expect you to care what *i* think!!!) really - to each his own. i do recognize your right to think that your current pro-poaching comments are moral even if actually they are not, just as i recognize a moral-relativist's right to so delude themselves on whatever matter of immorality they like. while these folks may be deluding themselves they aren't fooling me - and i'm plenty foolish on my own accord! /e Aaron See, it's the snide comments like that that I don't Aaron appreciate. Aaron It's attitudes like yours that are more likely to drive Aaron people away from GIMPS than whether or not someone poaches Aaron an assignment and results in the occasional triple check. Aaron Fortunately I happen to know that most people who Aaron participate are nice folks. So the fact that a couple Aaron people on here want to make continued references to my past Aaron in an attempt to paint me as an uncaring and morally Aaron reprehensible person isn't enough to dissuade me from Aaron continued participation. :) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
(apologies for any duplicate postings i generated here; most mailservers reject mail from my semi-improperly-configured linux PC.) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
To be honest, I don't even recall what I may have said in the past regarding poaching of exponents. I think it was me that applied the word to the actual practice of nabbing exponents that were still assigned. :) If I recall correctly, the topic came up at a time when PrimeNet did not expire exponents or require check ins every 60 days. Used to be that if you were assigned an exponent, basically you had it for a very very long time and no check-ins were required. I think Scott may have gone through manually and reallocated exponents that he deemed were abandoned, but I'm not sure of the actual process. All I know is, the only reason I ever poached exponents in the past was when I saw one that had been checked out for over a year and had never been checked in or updated. And yes, there were quite a few of those at the time. It was that previous thread about poaching that led to the changes in Primenet with expirations, requiring checkins every 60 days or your exponent would expire, etc. The way it is now, an exponent that's never been updated will expire in roughly 120 days which isn't bad. Compare that to before those changes when there were exponents out there that hadn't been checked in for 2 years and were still showing 3 or even 4 years to go. If those weren't poached and finished, there would have been significant gaps in the database. And while Scott would have gone through and cleaned such things out eventually, heaven knows he had better things to be doing. I think Mary's objection now is that poaching is not necessary, and she's right. Another objection is that if someone were going to poach exponents, this one person in particular was doing a lousy job at selecting which ones. I suppose that by selecting exponents that were on the verge of expiring, they would be reassigned to someone else in very short order anyway, meaning he would finish them off just days before the new owner finishes them which yeah, is frustrating. Where I part company with yours and others opinion is what to do about it. In my mind, tracking down the guys name and address for whatever reason seems to go beyond what I would consider necessary diligence. I think that in the future, simply mentioning this person's primenet ID to the folks at Entropia should suffice since they could then send an email explaining why it's bad form to nab exponents prior to their expiration. Aaron PS - Mentions of my past on here can get confusing because, besides the poaching threads of the past, there's also another matter from my past which someone else posted a Google thread to (not Mary... I think it was Nathan something-or-other). I'm not at all embarrassed about that incident, but it just bothers me when someone decides to do Google searches in some sort of attempt to find information on someone in particular. That's the sort of thing that borders on stalking, and it wouldn't be the first time someone's done a Google search and then rejoiced that they found such a juicy tidbit of information from my past. :) That's okay, because in so doing they've just proved themselves to be a kook and there's no longer any doubt as to whether I should ignore them. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mersenne-invalid- [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steve Elias Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted Aaron, i really know nothing about your past except what i've read here. it's your current comments re poaching which i have found objectionable. as you can see, i do feel free to comment regardless of your possible lack of appreciation for my comments. if you repented apologized for your alleged-previous-poaching-transgressions i might think differently, but you appear to be unapologetic. (but i don't really expect you to care what *i* think!!!) really - to each his own. i do recognize your right to think that your current pro-poaching comments are moral even if actually they are not, just as i recognize a moral-relativist's right to so delude themselves on whatever matter of immorality they like. while these folks may be deluding themselves they aren't fooling me - and i'm plenty foolish on my own accord! _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Robin Stevens wrote: On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:06:27PM -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for Mary's current predicament, with that block of small exponents you have, my best suggestion is to reverse the order of the lines in worktodo.ini so that the _largest_ ones are done first. Intermediate checkins to PrimeNet will then cause unstarted assignments which are no longer neccessary to be automatically removed. Of course if one _keeps_ doing this, then the smallest exponents never get processed (and perhaps they become more likely to be poached) :-) The idea here wasn't that you'd never get the small ones done, but that if someone else finished one of them out of order, it would be removed from your reserved numbers without you wasting any work on it. -- Henrik Olsen, Dawn Solutions I/S URL=http://www.iaeste.dk/~henrik/ That seems to point up a significant difference between Europeans and Americans. A European says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with me? An American says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with him? Terry Pratchett on alt.fan.pratchett _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Steve Elias wrote: legally, who knows - maybe there will be a court case some day if some awful person poaches the 10M exponent ... On the legal issue, if a poacher did happen to pick the lucky number . . . The good news is that GIMPS starts out with the money, and the only evidence the poacher has is thru GIMPS. The bad news is, if currently the server doesn't keep track of the old assignee when the poacher is given credit, then even if the legitimate double-checker comes forward the documentation is on the side of the poacher. So I would urge George and Scott to at least change it so that -- if an exponent has been assigned to more than one person -- it stores the last two names until a valid doublecheck proves the exponent composite. Personally, I agree with most of the suggestions made to the list (see http://www.mail-archive.com/mersenne@base.com/msg06960.html) On the topic of incentives to poach: We all know that if poachers used slow machines or waited too long before poaching so that they received the Exponent already tested. message more than half the time, they'd lose interest quickly. They are doing it because they have fast machines and they've figured out when to pounce so *they* get credit. Their's is no noble urge to quietly clean up the trailing edge of the project. They're scavengers who don't want to get lost among the other fast machines in front, and won't put in the time. Making the suggested changes would take away their incentive, and encourage *careful poachers* to wait until an exponent expires. ( Well, I feel much better now ;+) Bruce Leenstra mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
hi Aaron, thanks for clarifying your position! i'm a simpleton who lives often below curb-height, and think poaching=stealing=wrong. this exponent poaching seems like a sort of stealing to me and it would surely tick me off vastly if i found my 33M exponent was checked in a day before my PC finished its ~3 months of work. indeed if it did happen to me, i would probably do as Mary has surmised and resign from GIMPS and join another cooperative computing effort such as SETI or anthrax-cure-finding or anthrax-genome-finding or whatever else. i think i see your point regarding the state of 'exponent poaching' long before i joined GIMPS, and how it is no longer useful. thank you for educating me about the past history of poaching here as well as the current state of the issue here. as for parting company with my alleged opinion about what to do: i surely do not support hassling anyone by google-searches or posting home addresses or phone numbers or anything like that. a quick google search for an email address, or a query to a mailing list, does anyone know how to contact this person so i can email them doesn't strike me as any sort of stalking... as long as it ends there, or ends with what i saw here: the guy's a ham-radio-dude, you can look up his email address as a ham callsign or email this ham-mailing-list to maybe find him. as you might imagine by my forward use of language, i actually have an internet stalker of my own. he lives in the SF Bay Area, near where i used to live, and he has done all sorts of threatening things to myself and *many* others. he has spent time in jail due to at least some of: (convicted) violations of anti-stalking laws, (alleged) firebombing of cars businesses, and (convicted) child-porn activities. also he has lost some civil suits which he has initiated against his detractors from various usenet groups. so i understand how horrible it is to be the target of a stalker and would never support or contribute to such activity! regards, /eli _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On 4 Feb 2002, at 11:52, Robin Stevens wrote: On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:06:27PM -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for Mary's current predicament, with that block of small exponents you have, my best suggestion is to reverse the order of the lines in worktodo.ini so that the _largest_ ones are done first. Intermediate checkins to PrimeNet will then cause unstarted assignments which are no longer neccessary to be automatically removed. Of course if one _keeps_ doing this, then the smallest exponents never get processed (and perhaps they become more likely to be poached) :-) Nah, the candle is being burned from both ends. The point is that the small ones _are_ being poached. If you work in the same order as the poacher, work on lots of exponents will be replicated. If you work in the opposite order, only one exponent will be accidentally triple-checked. Regards Brian Beesley _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sat, Feb 2, 2002 10:15 PM, Mary Conner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that fun? Does that sound like fun? Some hobby! George said no poaching. He said if there was a problem with exponents not being completed in a timely fashion, he would take care of it. Anybody who continues to poach is putting up a big fat middle finger to George and GIMPS and running off legitimate participants that they consider not worthy. I have to agree with Mary. I run lots of older systems that do double-checks. I been the victim of poachers a few times, and it really annoys me. Whenever an exponent is tested an extra time, work is wasted. The current checkin system implicitly assumes the first double check is useful, and the next one is redundant. If the poacher checks in first, he is rewarded. This seems fine at first glance, since the project wants the double check result, and the poacher has provided what the project wants. But as Mary points out, habitual poachers may be driving an unknown number of people and machines away from GIMPS. The poach that seemed innocent when the checkin occured can have a negative impact. It is clear that poaching does not advance the stated goal of GIMPS at all. At best it brings in a result somewhat sooner than would otherwise happen. At worst it wastes machine time and drives users away from the project. Poaching is also completely unnecessary. Any machine used to test poached exponents could just as well be used to test legitimately checked-out exponents. The expiration mechanism guarantees that no checked-out exponents will be abandoned forever. Poaching a slow exponent on the chance that is might actually be abandoned is not useful. Revisting the checkout and checkin mechanism is not a trivial amount of work, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that. However, if it does get changed at some point, I would strongly suggest some anti-poaching mechanisms be added. For example, anyone who checks in an exponent that's assigned to someone else should NOT get credit immediately, but only after it expires or is given up voluntarily. If the owner eventually checks in the result, he should get the credit. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
There are two points of view here. They seem to be more or less irreconcilable. This argument repeats on a regular basis. I have to say that: (a) I agree completely that having an assignment poached is annoying to extremely offputting, especially for a relatively new user; (b) I don't see any harm in the occasional triple-check. In fact completing these assignments does give some information of limited statistical value relating to the error rate. Personally I feel it will never be possible to eliminate the problem entirely. After all, we're all volunteers; as such, firm application of discipline is not a realistic option. Probably the best way to rectify the situation is to make sure that when an unexpired assignment completion is notified by someone other than the person/team who owned the assignment; (a) PrimeNet credits the person/team who owned the assignment, rather than the person/team reporting completion; (b) in the case of a double-check assignment, or when a factor is reported, PrimeNet notifies the person/team who owned the assignment so that unneccessary waste of effort can be avoided. This is one way in which the email address associated with each user could usefully be employed - waiting for a routine check-in leaves effort being wasted in the interim. If (unlike Mary) you're running a _first_ test which appears to be poached, the probable reason is that the person who had the assignment before you has reported their result after allowing it to expire. You are _not_ wasting time by completing the assignment as a double check run will eventually be required - _unless_ a factor has been found! As for Mary's current predicament, with that block of small exponents you have, my best suggestion is to reverse the order of the lines in worktodo.ini so that the _largest_ ones are done first. Intermediate checkins to PrimeNet will then cause unstarted assignments which are no longer neccessary to be automatically removed. Regards Brian Beesley _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Well, I think that most people on the list know of my past... it's when someone does a Google search on me that I think borders on stalking. One can only wonder what you might find if you did Google searches on everyone on this list. :) Anyway... the gardening analogy doesn't pass muster. First, may I point out that neither GIMPS nor PrimeNet *owns* the Mersenne exponents being tested. I would posit that *anyone* is free to test *any* exponent they choose. Clearly, the purpose of GIMPS/PrimeNet is to optimize this search by assigning exponents in an orderly fashion. I'm not advocating poaching since I feel that Scott/George's system works fine. But I am saying that if someone wants to poach exponents, while I might disagree, there's nothing really wrong with it. Stealing someone's plants is illegal. Nobody owns these exponents so there's nothing to steal. That's my only point. Rude, yes. Morally/ethically/legally there's really no problem with doing it. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work Being Wasted
I agree that having your exponents poached is extremely annoying and can and probably does drive away new participants. When it happens repeatedly and when the person who does it, does so repeatedly and with a clear disregard to whether the exponents are being checked in regularly or not - Mary checks in her progress almost daily so clearly there is no real logic for an intelligent poacher to poach her exponents - it becomes extremely irritating and the GIMPS community needs to find a way to stop it. I think - and as a couple of people have pointed this out before - when a double-check assignment is poached and the poacher turns the result in first the result should be accepted as it is currently. As regards the credit we can do one of two things. Either 1) Credit goes to the person who was assigned the doublecheck and the poacher gets nothing. Apart from the satisfaction of having moved the trailing edge and wasted their time and whatever. Or 2) The primenet server waits till the exponent expires in which case the credit goes to the poacher or if the person to whom the exponent was assigned returns a result gets credit. This way the occasional triple checks that help keep tabs on the error rate and such will keep coming in and credit will go where it is due. It will also greatly reduce the incentive for poaching. I hope George and Scott can incorporate this change without too much change in the server. Anurag _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Mary Conner wrote: Hobbies are supposed to be fun. Poachers make it not fun. It's like a bully trashing your sand castle because you're building right where he wants to. Imagine yourself a first time GIMPS participant. [cut history of the hypothetical newbie] Hi. I'm new to GIMPS. I recently switched from SETI@Home looking for something more solid, which probably makes me a good example for this discussion :-) This entire thread scared me a lot, I must admit. Could anybody told me - a complete newbie in this area - what should I do in order not to waste my (my A1200) time working on numbers which may be taken over by someone else in some uncertain future? Currently I'm finishing my first exponent (that's M7505207 double-check) connecting to PrimeNet server whenever it needs to, lastly on Jan 31 to get new exponent to work on. Is there anything more I ought to know or do? How long can I work on a single number not worrying that anyone will consider this abandoned? TIA and greetings to long-time participants :-) M, -- Maciej Hrynczyszyn banshee*uoo.univ.szczecin.pl _ __ __ _ __| | __ _ ~ | '_ \ / _` |/ _` |/ _` | Here come the quick. There go the dead. | | | | (_| | (_| | (_| | Here they come. Bright red. |_| |_|\__,_|\__,_|\__,_| _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Maciej Hrynczyszyn wrote: Hi. I'm new to GIMPS. I recently switched from SETI@Home looking for something more solid, which probably makes me a good example for this discussion :-) This entire thread scared me a lot, I must admit. Could anybody told me - a complete newbie in this area - what should I do in order not to waste my (my A1200) time working on numbers which may be taken over by someone else in some uncertain future? Currently I'm finishing my first exponent (that's M7505207 double-check) connecting to PrimeNet server whenever it needs to, lastly on Jan 31 to get new exponent to work on. Is there anything more I ought to know or do? How long can I work on a single number not worrying that anyone will consider this abandoned? It's very unlikely that particular exponent will get poached. But in general, the best way to avoid poachers is to avoid looking like a newbie. If you are running Prime95, set your Options--Preferences--Days between sending new end dates value lower, down to 1 if that is possible (doesn't matter if you don't log in every day, if you miss a day it just means that Prime95 will check your exponent in the next time you connect). You also have a default account name of S followed by five digits, and a default computer name of C followed by an eight digit hex number. Change those to something more personalized. The way things stand right now, completely avoiding poachers is not possible if you have any exponents that are close to the top of the Assigned Exponents Report. Most of them will stay away if an exponent is being checked in frequently and showing progress. If you go on vacation for a couple of weeks and don't log in during that time, you could return to find your exponent poached, though. I really hope that the people who are poaching are reading this list, and will scurry away from the light being shed on this matter. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
First, may I point out that neither GIMPS nor PrimeNet *owns* the Mersenne exponents being tested. I would posit that *anyone* is free to test *any* exponent they choose. Clearly, the purpose of GIMPS/PrimeNet is to optimize this search by assigning exponents in an orderly fashion. Both those statements are true however they don't really convey what is happening in this case, someone is using GIMPS/PrimeNet reports to choose the exponents to test and returning those results to GIMPS/PrimeNet in a way that is not in the best interest of GIMPS/PrimeNet. I'm not advocating poaching since I feel that Scott/George's system works fine. But I am saying that if someone wants to poach exponents, while I might disagree, there's nothing really wrong with it. Stealing someone's plants is illegal. Nobody owns these exponents so there's nothing to steal. That's my only point. Rude, yes. Morally/ethically/legally there's really no problem with doing it. On the basis of legality I would tend to agree with you however I beg to differ on the basis of ethics and morality, however I guess everyone is entitled to their own idea of what is morally and ethically ok. Rob Reid http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=rob+reid 'Stalk' away ;) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Legally perhaps not (however, they are using PrimeNet in a way that violates the stated terms of usage), morally and ethically I do think (and I suspect most people would think) it is wrong. Not terribly surprising that you don't think it is, I suppose. See, it's the snide comments like that that I don't appreciate. It's attitudes like yours that are more likely to drive people away from GIMPS than whether or not someone poaches an assignment and results in the occasional triple check. Fortunately I happen to know that most people who participate are nice folks. So the fact that a couple people on here want to make continued references to my past in an attempt to paint me as an uncaring and morally reprehensible person isn't enough to dissuade me from continued participation. :) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Aaron Blosser wrote: Legally perhaps not (however, they are using PrimeNet in a way that violates the stated terms of usage), morally and ethically I do think (and I suspect most people would think) it is wrong. Not terribly surprising that you don't think it is, I suppose. See, it's the snide comments like that that I don't appreciate. Why is this a snide comment? It should not be surprising that someone who has engaged in poaching before would think it wasn't wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have done it. Fortunately I happen to know that most people who participate are nice folks. So the fact that a couple people on here want to make continued references to my past in an attempt to paint me as an uncaring and morally reprehensible person isn't enough to dissuade me from continued participation. :) First, I would like to point out that you brought yourself into this discussion. I made no reference to you until you decided to comment. Secondly, I don't think it is at all snide or uncalled for to mention that you have poached in the past when you express your opinion that it is not wrong. Thirdly, why would it bother you to have your past poaching brought up if you don't think it was wrong? _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Mary Conner wrote: It's very unlikely that particular exponent will get poached. But in general, the best way to avoid poachers is to avoid looking like a newbie. If you are running Prime95, set your Options--Preferences--Days between sending new end dates value lower, down to 1 if that is possible Done. Thanks. (doesn't matter if you don't log in every day, if you miss a day it just means that Prime95 will check your exponent in the next time you connect). You also have a default account name of S followed by five digits, and a default computer name of C followed by an eight digit hex number. Change those to something more personalized. I wanted to, but it wasn't clear to me whether it was considered good or bad manners. One never knows what are the rules of savoir-vivre in the community he joined few days ago. Now I know I have a free hand :-) The way things stand right now, completely avoiding poachers is not possible if you have any exponents that are close to the top of the Assigned Exponents Report. Most of them will stay away if an exponent is being checked in frequently and showing progress. If you go on vacation for a couple of weeks and don't log in during that time, you could return to find your exponent poached, though. But if I use 'Vacation or Holiday' option at least my completion date will be postponed? I really hope that the people who are poaching are reading this list, and will scurry away from the light being shed on this matter. One more question, if I may. If I want to change my scheduled work shall I use 'Unreserve Exponent' feature or simply delete the proper line from worktodo.ini? Thank You very much for Your help, -- Maciej Hrynczyszyn Nada. I'm on a roll, I'm on a roll this time. I feel my luck could change... 'Lucky' - Radiohead. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Maciej Hrynczyszyn wrote: But if I use 'Vacation or Holiday' option at least my completion date will be postponed? If you uncheck the computer will be on during your absence box, it should adjust your completion date. The bigger problem is that not having checked the exponent in with PrimeNet during that time will attract the attention of poachers just as checking in infrequently does. Trying to sneakernet or do occasional manual checkins is probably futile. I know of at least one GIMPS participant who is considering removing his slower Mac boxes from GIMPS because of the poaching risk surrounding the smaller exponents his machines can reasonably handle. Better to put them on another distributed computing project where his CPU will not be wasted, but GIMPS loses. One more question, if I may. If I want to change my scheduled work shall I use 'Unreserve Exponent' feature or simply delete the proper line from worktodo.ini? Use the Unreserve Exponent feature (or web page). Deleting the line from the worktodo does not unreserve it from PrimeNet. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Aw heck, let's just agree to disagree and shake hands. :) I'm not terribly upset, and as I mentioned before, I have far greater things in life to be concerned about than GIMPS, so I didn't mean to make a big deal of it. :) First, I would like to point out that you brought yourself into this discussion. I made no reference to you until you decided to comment. Secondly, I don't think it is at all snide or uncalled for to mention that you have poached in the past when you express your opinion that it is not wrong. Thirdly, why would it bother you to have your past poaching brought up if you don't think it was wrong? _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Aaron Blosser wrote: Aw heck, let's just agree to disagree and shake hands. :) I'm not terribly upset, and as I mentioned before, I have far greater things in life to be concerned about than GIMPS, so I didn't mean to make a big deal of it. :) No problem with that here. I had initially hoped that this whole thing was just a mistake, and someone would quickly set things right so we wouldn't have two users working the same exponents. I may never know, but I have gone back to quietly working on my exponents. I'd like to thank all those who sent me suggestions, I will try them out if it happens again. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Sounds like stalking to me. Just live with it I guess and if the occasional exponent gets triple-checked, I don't anticipate losing too much sleep. Yeah, it sucks, but what lengths should anyone go to to find the guy and say something? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mersenne-invalid- [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Russel Brooks Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:35 PM To: Mary Conner; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mersenne: Work being wasted Mary Conner wrote: I managed to grab a bunch of those 4.5M doublechecks that George released on Jan 10th. A few days ago, when my machine was about to finish up the second one of the batch I grabbed, the account k5gj submitted a result for this exponent. A little investigation showed that this account does this K5GJ is possibly/probably a Ham call sign. You can find the owner's name and address at arrl.org with a call sign search. It says the call sign is owned by a Thomas Cage of Amarillo Texas. There isn't an email listed but if he's a member of the arrl then he may use their address forwarding in which case you might be able to contact him via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers... Russ _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Aaron Blosser wrote: Sounds like stalking to me. Not to me. The radio ham thing is a tenuous connection, except that the name is right. Just live with it I guess and if the occasional exponent gets triple-checked, I don't anticipate losing too much sleep. Yeah, it sucks, but what lengths should anyone go to to find the guy and say something? Well, with your history, I suppose that is how you would feel. I does not bother me that the occasional exponent gets triple checked because it expired and both the new owner and the old owner complete it, that's pretty unavoidable and it wasn't deliberate. It bothers me when people deliberately do it without caring that they may be screwing someone else over. There's a big difference between accepting bad things because they just happen, and just sucking it up when someone is doing it deliberately to you. And I would like to point out that it is not the occasional triple check. I did a quick look through all the exponents that k5gj has returned results for, and well over half, perhaps 75% are triple (or higher!) checks. I asked for help reaching him because it appears he is a long time GIMPS participant and well known, if he was joe nobody there would be no point. I know that I would certainly want to know if I was wasting 75% of my computing power. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
Nah, I just don't think it's worth tracking down this guy's name, address and who knows what else just because he's poaching exponents in what is, after all, just a hobby. Not sure what the crack about with your history means, but whatever. I can't take this all too seriously because, really, it's just a hobby. :) Like they say, you pick your battles. I guess if someone wanted to make a huge issue out of this, they could, but me, I'd rather spend my time and energy on more productive things. Just my $0.02 worth, and obviously people can and will disagree. :) _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Aaron Blosser wrote: Not sure what the crack about with your history means, but whatever. I can't take this all too seriously because, really, it's just a hobby. :) Well, let me refresh your memory. PrimeNet used to set expiration dates solely on the basis of expected completion date instead of requiring checkins every so often. When that turned out to be not a terribly good idea because some expected completion dates were months or even years away, you took it upon yourself to clean up instead of raising the issue to put a better system in place. You ended up poaching exponents that people were actively working on and got a lot of people mad at you. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. Poachers make it not fun. It's like a bully trashing your sand castle because you're building right where he wants to. Imagine yourself a first time GIMPS participant. You sign your machine up and don't change any of the defaults. You get a double check assignment. Your machine is on most of the time, but it gets used a lot, so it takes longer than the initial estimate. You watch your exponent get crunched, you see maybe one PrimeNet report out of the four the machine makes, and four months later, you gleefully wait as the last few iterations tick away. Unbeknownst to you, in the meantime your exponent has floated up near the top of the Assigned Exponent Report, where a poacher has taken note that the exponent has been running for three months, is expected to run another month and has not been checked in in the last two weeks. A month later the machine finishes, connects to PrimeNet and you get the error, Exponent already tested. What?! How did that happen? N! You go check your account report. No credit. Four months wasted. Screw this, you say, and delete Prime95. A friend told you that GIMPS was a rock solid well-run project. Obviously that's not true. Later on you get a much faster computer. Are you going to go back to GIMPS? Only if you're an idiot! Is that fun? Does that sound like fun? Some hobby! George said no poaching. He said if there was a problem with exponents not being completed in a timely fashion, he would take care of it. Anybody who continues to poach is putting up a big fat middle finger to George and GIMPS and running off legitimate participants that they consider not worthy. Like they say, you pick your battles. I guess if someone wanted to make a huge issue out of this, they could, but me, I'd rather spend my time and energy on more productive things. You spend your time the way you like, I'll spend mine the way I like. We can each agree to value our own time according to our own criteria. I'm not even sure why you bothered to respond to this, as it is surely a huge waste of your time. _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted
I hate it when people dredge up the past. -Original Message- From: Nathan Russell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 8:41 PM To: Aaron Blosser Subject: RE: Mersenne: Work being wasted At 06:12 PM 2/2/2002 -0800, you wrote: Not sure what the crack about with your history means, but whatever. I can't take this all too seriously because, really, it's just a hobby. :) As it is for all of us, of course. However, while I have no idea what Mary is talking about, a quick check on Google reveals there's some stories about you out there well in excess of the actual: http://lists.jammed.com/ISN/1998/09/0067.html Nathan _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
Mersenne: Work being wasted
I managed to grab a bunch of those 4.5M doublechecks that George released on Jan 10th. A few days ago, when my machine was about to finish up the second one of the batch I grabbed, the account k5gj submitted a result for this exponent. A little investigation showed that this account does this frequently, submitting results for the low exponents on the Assigned Exponents Report, without actually having that exponent assigned to them and without regard for whether the exponent is being actively checked in or worked on. Six out of the lowest 10 exponents released in this batch have been poached by this account, and two have since turned into triple checks because of this, resulting in a lot of waste. This account is apparently owned by Tom Cage. I obtained his email address from the mailing list archives, and sent an email to him asking why he had done this, and whether he intended to continue steamrolling the rest of my exponents with his very fast machine. To date, I have not received any answer from Tom Cage, and I'm somewhat hesitant to start work on the rest of exponents right now, as I do not want my work to be wasted. From his old mailing list articles, he seems to be a long time participant in GIMPS, and perhaps someone has a better contact address for him than [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any assistance in contacting him would be appreciated. I would like to get back to work on these exponents. I know that the last time this came up, a lot of people said poaching was no problem anymore. Well, from doing a lot of work in the low doublecheck area, I can tell you that it is still a problem. The account nuutti that I wrote about before, as well as accounts beth133 and kiste are also heavily involved in poaching this area of exponent space. Unlike Tom Cage, they appear to try to pick their targets with some intelligence, but I would point out that exponents that are going to expire would expire anyway (and there are people who legitimately pick up low expiring exponents to make sure they get done, both account djaquay and I do it on a regular basis, and there are others who do it on an occasional basis), and having an exponent out for more than a couple of months while slowly working on it is not holding up GIMPS in any real sense. Poaching is probably doing more harm to GIMPS than good, given that getting an exponent already tested error, or not getting any credit when you do finally turn in a result is quite likely to frustrate many people into leaving GIMPS, and while they might have a slow machine now, who knows they might get a shiny new P4 some day, but they'll be very unlikely to come back to GIMPS with it. So I would urge anybody who knows how to contact the owners of these accounts to please ask them to stop this. If we reach a major milestone (like proving M38) and all other exponents except the slowpokes are done (or if the slowpokes are causing problems with PrimeNet, and I've seen no evidence of that), *then* might be the time to do something about it, but who cares if it takes 9 months for someone to finish something if it'll be a year before the milestone is reached. Mary Conner _ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.ndatech.com/mersenne/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers
