Re: php wikis
I have swiki installed on my server if you would like to try it. It has some nice features that many wikis do not have, such as : (1) the editing form includes a field to change the name of the page; (2) when you change it, the name of a page is replaced everywhere in the wiki, e.g. no broken links; (3) an automatic listing at the bottom of each page of the pages linked to the current page. I have been moving *away* from swiki, though, because it regularly froze my server, forcing me to reboot, notably when editing *long* pages. Swiki has not moved apace with Zope development. The Wiki we are using / developing was originally based on swiki, but we've added a proper object model, so that you can access and change the data structures (wiki pages) more flexibly. It's got the features above, but also with page (object) types so you can create different flavours of pages. In terms of usage, I am solidly anchored into *wiki*. As for RD, in the short-term Im entirely focused on blogs. My blog plans are the following : 1. One MC-based blog client for blog-users ; 2. One MC-based blog client for blog-admins ; 3. One MC-based blog server. Any previous work done on any/all of the above that you could share with me/others would, therefore, be a great leap forward right now. Please act *immediately* so that I can avoid doing any un-necessary work.. Pretty please, with a cherry on top. ;-) Alain - I'll send you the old client... not sure it will be worth it as it was developed as the guy from blogger first proposed the Xml-RPC interface which I think will have moved on quite a way since then... ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
The gist of what I was getting at, though, is that the reason why David might prefer blogs over wikis is that wikis lack the automation of blogs. Nice sentence Alain :) It's close but in fact I like wikis and dislike blogs. But I was pretty sure that Blog's would work for people and that wiki's would not. This again was based on my experience of creating large user authored HyperCard based projects - they scale badly, producing lovely organic messes of data which are hard to keep up to date with changes in technology. This is a problem for the user, the potential author, and the editor - it is also the source of a great strength. Where I am going with the wiki/blogg thing is here is that blogs have the advantage of the underlying RDBMS structure, while wiki's are better at producing evolving structures. The marriage of chaos and structure tends to produce funky evolving stuff. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
PS: Blogs are very hot right now. FreeCard has its own blog now, at : http://www.communautic.uqam.ca/blog/ . A blog is similar to a wiki, and many existing blogs were crafted with wiki source-code. But the 'kicker' is that all blogs ( apparently some wikis too) can be remotely controlled via any client that supports XML-RPC, and ... I've just started a project to craft such a client with MetaCard. IOW, you will soon be able to use my MC-stack to edit blogs and wikis, from within MetaCard FreeGUI, without the need for a *separate* web-browser or e-mail client. I've been using blogger for a couple of years now - got an MC XML_RPC client somewhere which your welcome to. We've just added an XML-RPC interface to a Zope powered WIKI and will be releasing that open source (most likely public domain) as soon as it's all integrated with the CVS servers. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Hello David, I've been using blogger for a couple of years now... You knew about blogs *two years* ago. Wow! You are way ahead of your time, David. IOW, you're a *genius* ! got an MC XML_RPC client somewhere which you're welcome to. Amazing! Superbe! Beyond my *wildest* expectations! :)) Please locate this gem for me, ASAP, because Im working actively on my MC-based blog client, as we speak. Plus I have a blog up-and-running which, so far, I can only use via its poorly-made web interface. We've just added an XML-RPC interface to a Zope powered WIKI... This is a *fascinating* revelation, David. :)) I am familiar with Zope. We have a Zope expert on our team whose name is Nicolas Marchildon. If you have any tech difficulties related to Zope, then don't hesitate to contact him thru me. ... and will be releasing that open source (most likely public domain) ... Public Domain, eh! Admit it, David : I have had a (+) influence on you. ;-) ... as soon as it's all integrated with the CVS servers. I am raptly interested, David. Please notify as soon as it becomes available to the public. Count me among the testers if indeed you need some testers. Admiratively, Alain Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Do you mean creating a server side implementation or did any one use it :) I've not used MC to create server side blog/Wiki stuff -- it's already been done, but adding custom stuff to the core structure is I think a more productive line to take. On the end-user side, I've never been a fan of Wikis, but liked Blog's, which is strange as I'm working on wiki based stuff at the moment. Blog's have proved more succesful in the short term, but the technologies are merging. Wikis especially annoy me as they bring out in the starkest terms, how awful browsers are at producing responsive interfaces - you can do it so much better in MC. Think you can get the best in both worlds by producing value added clients in MC, with the option of using the web interface if you really have to. Did anyone bother with a metacard based weblog or wiki? Regards, Andu Novac ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
--On Friday, June 06, 2003 16:46:02 +0100 David Bovill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you mean creating a server side implementation or did any one use it :) Server side I meant. I did a basic one a while ago in a couple of hours just to see what would involve. I've not used MC to create server side blog/Wiki stuff -- it's already been done, but adding custom stuff to the core structure is I think a more productive line to take. On the end-user side, I've never been a fan of Wikis, but liked Blog's, which is strange as I'm working on wiki based stuff at the moment. Blog's have proved more succesful in the short term, but the technologies are merging. Well, wikis are meant to do a different thing (i.e. documenting a group project), weblogs are personal expression. I'm not too crazy about wikis myself though if they are well designed they could be useful and easy to use. Regards, Andu Novac ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Well, wikis are meant to do a different thing (i.e. documenting a group project), weblogs are personal expression. I'm not too crazy about wikis myself though if they are well designed they could be useful and easy to use. Regards, Andu Novac A couple of interesting links regarding blogs, wikis and the properties of the communities they build: About weblogs and emergent properties based on interlinking blogs: http://joi.ito.com/joiwiki/WeblogsAndEmergence Also: http://joi.ito.com/joiwiki/EmergentDemocracyPaper#head-3bd437ddf02c9bbb4b81 3fc7dbb8c90fea977f7e Some comments on the way wiki's are going... http://www.mcgeesmusings.net/2003/05/29.html - wikis down the bottom of thee page. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
| From: Alain Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Re: php wikis | | ... and will be releasing that open source | (most likely public domain) ... | | Public Domain, eh! Admit it, David : I have had a (+) | influence on you. ;-) | | ... as soon as it's all integrated | with the CVS servers. | | I am raptly interested, David. Please notify as soon | as it becomes available to the public. Count me among | the testers if indeed you need some testers. Yo! Another interested party here ... We're using a wiki to create a user extensible software manual (ah, you know me, love documentation), so end users can add their own note pages to the manual. It's an old wiki and infortunately, in-line images don't work. I've seen some newer ones where that does work (heh .. including the place where we got this one a couple years ago, It's Ward Cunningham's, is that the right spelling?) and I've looked at some newer ones like Swiki but this sounds very interesting. Hmmm... yes, it would be cool if I could give the users a nice MC tool for manual updates, searching etc. Anyway, just another 2 cents. Sadhu ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Hello David, Andu, and y'all, I've not used MC to create server side blog/Wiki stuff -- it's already been done... Please, please, I *beg* you to give us some URLs to have a look at these MetaCard-based blog/Wiki servers. ... but adding custom stuff to the core structure is I think a more productive line to take. Sounds interesting. Let's discuss this further. On the end-user side, I've never been a fan of Wikis, but liked Blog's, which is strange as I'm working on wiki based stuff at the moment. Blog's have proved more succesful in the short term... That's odd! My experience is exactly the contrary. Blogs are like un-threaded forums. The messages just pile in one after the other, most recent one on the top. A lot of 'publishing' systems like Xoops also share this same paradigm. Wikis, OTOH, are more like a editable website. The content is divided into hyperlinked pages. The info becomes hierarchically organized (a good thing) without sacrificing any of the hyper-linking to any other page or site. The knowledge being built with the wiki has a stable feel to it, and bits of it can be subsequently tweaked as many times as you like; whereas, in blogs, only the admin has the power to modify the content of the contributions. What I don't like about wikis, or rather the ones I have used so far, is that the web interface is the *only* way to interact with the wiki; whereas the blog can also be mailed to or accessed by any XML-RPC client. But I have since discovered that there are wikis that also do XML-RPC. Without this 'automation' potential, making global changes in a wiki is a nightmare. You literally have to go to each-and-every page as any 'user' would. Which is why I am still interested in systems like Zope. A global change of a footer on [a subset of] all pages is a cinch with Zope : all you have to do is change one file in the appropriate place in the object hierarchy. ...but the technologies are merging. Many blogs were started by forking some wiki code. As for merging, I am not sure it would be a good idea. They each have their own particular 'charm' (e.g. uses). Wikis especially annoy me as they bring out in the starkest terms, how awful browsers are at producing responsive interfaces - you can do it so much better in MC. My guess is that you're interacting with your blogs with a MC-client, whereas the wikis you have used only have a web interface. If so, you have not founf the right wiki yet, e.g. the ones you can remote control with XML-RPC. Think you can get the best in both worlds by producing value added clients in MC, with the option of using the web interface if you really have to. Very well summed up, David. Value added clients in MC for those customers who are open-minded, AND the lesser option of using the web interface for those conservative customers who are still *clinging* to their favorite web browser (just like Linus and his favorite blanket in the Peanuts). Regards y'all, Alain __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
--On Friday, June 06, 2003 15:02:52 -0700 Alain Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello David, Andu, and y'all, snip That's odd! My experience is exactly the contrary. Blogs are like un-threaded forums. The messages just pile in one after the other, most recent one on the top. That's the thing, blogs are not meant to be forums (and I noticed the link you provided is just that) they are closer to a public journal so to speak (http://mental.archeopterix.com). I've seen proper weblogs with several members but the entries were more like short essays, not a conversation. For conversations you have mailing lists or forums. Wikis, OTOH, are more like a editable website. The content is divided into hyperlinked pages. The info becomes hierarchically organized (a good thing) without sacrificing any of the hyper-linking to any other page or site. The knowledge being built with the wiki has a stable feel to it, and bits of it can be subsequently tweaked as many times as you like; whereas, in blogs, only the admin has the power to modify the content of the contributions. Weblogs are not supposed to be edited in the way wikis are because... they are not wikis. What I don't like about wikis, or rather the ones I have used so far, is that the web interface is the *only* way to interact with the wiki; whereas the blog can also be mailed to or accessed by any XML-RPC client. But I have since discovered that there are wikis that also do XML-RPC. Without this 'automation' potential, making global changes in a wiki is a nightmare. You literally have to go to each-and-every page as any 'user' would. Which is why I am still interested in systems like Zope. A global change of a footer on [a subset of] all pages is a cinch with Zope : all you have to do is change one file in the appropriate place in the object hierarchy. I don't get it, you want to read the wiki in a browser but to edit it in a different application, why use wiki. The thing with the footer is just a matter of design, you can have the script insert a footer in all pages as they are served. I'm not a friend of html but I recently discovered the potential of css (kind of late, I know) and I do believe that good design can make a difference. Zope is great but it comes with a learning curve. Regards, Andu Novac ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Hello Sadu, David, and y'all, Yo! Another interested party here ... So how about it, David. Do you have any download-URLs for us? Reading is fun and instructive, but we want to *play* with something. Some building blocks... ;-) We're using a wiki to create a user extensible software manual (ah, you know me, love docs), so end users can add their own note pages to the manual. Excellent way of using a wiki. :) It's an old wiki and infortunately, in-line images don't work. That's *really* old! All of the wikis Ive tested support inline images, even the simplest ones. I've seen some newer ones where that does work (heh .. including the place where we got this one a couple years ago... Pretty much *anywhere* you look. It's Ward Cunningham's... Who, as we all know, was inspired by HyperCard when he created the first wiki ever. What an impressive lineage HyperCard has, eh! Is that the right spelling? Yes. ... and I've looked at some newer ones like Swiki but this sounds very interesting. I have swiki installed on my server if you would like to try it. It has some nice features that many wikis do not have, such as : (1) the editing form includes a field to change the name of the page; (2) when you change it, the name of a page is replaced everywhere in the wiki, e.g. no broken links; (3) an automatic listing at the bottom of each page of the pages linked to the current page. I have been moving *away* from swiki, though, because it regularly froze my server, forcing me to reboot, notably when editing *long* pages. Hmmm... yes, it would be cool if I could give the users a nice MC tool for manual updates, searching etc. In terms of usage, I am solidly anchored into *wiki*. As for RD, in the short-term Im entirely focused on blogs. My blog plans are the following : 1. One MC-based blog client for blog-users ; 2. One MC-based blog client for blog-admins ; 3. One MC-based blog server. Any previous work done on any/all of the above that you could share with me/others would, therefore, be a great leap forward right now. Please act *immediately* so that I can avoid doing any un-necessary work.. Pretty please, with a cherry on top. ;-) I share David's aversion towards web stuff, particularly when compared to the web-applications we can accomplish with MetaCard. I am an ardent supporter and promoter of using an xCard on the client side as well as the server side. And I certainly don't count myself among those who still desperately cling to the web-browser as the one only means of making good use of the Internet. But.. it is clearly an uphill battle that we're facing. We have to soften the transition for those who are too insecure to let go of their web-browser 'blanket'. Hence, it is a good first step to make them realize that xCard-apps can vastly improve their current web habits. Blogging with a MC-based blog client, for example, is simpler and better than blogging via the blog's web interface. Downloading stacks from the Pantechnicon from within our inventory stack is another example. Once they grasped all of the advantages of our xCard approach to the web, by actually using them, then they may gradually move away from their web browser, in favour of our xCard clients, for most of their web-based activities. Java-based FreeCard will have an edge here, btw, given that Java applets can be imbedded into web pages, plus web browsing can be embedded into Java programs. I also discovered that JavaScript can be embedded into any Java program, including FreeCard, and therefore that one of FreeCard's scriptingLanguages will be JavaScript. This should appeal to those web-developers who are familiar with JavaScript because it will smooth their transition from web-pages (DOM) to xCards. Subversive eh! ;-) Alain __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Hello Andu and y'all, Weblogs are not supposed to be edited in the way wikis are because... they are not wikis. Good point, Andu. The gist of what I was getting at, though, is that the reason why David might prefer blogs over wikis is that wikis lack the automation of blogs. I don't get it, you want to read the wiki in a browser but to edit it in a different application, why use wiki. I am not sure what is so perplexing about this. I want to browse the wiki, plus make some changes to it on the fly, just like any other user. But, as an administrator of the wiki, who maintains and improves the orderliness of the wiki's content, I often need to make many changes at once and, in these cases, the web browser GUI of the wiki is NOT efficient. Changing the footer, for example. The thing with the footer is just a matter of design, you can have the script insert a footer in all pages as they are served. You can do this with a *wiki* ? If so, then I have chosen a bad example. Suppose someone referred to many times in the wiki suddenly changes his e-mail address? Or what if a contributor changes the domain-name of his server and, consequently, would break the URLs of their contributions (pan downloads). And so on. I'm not a friend of html but I recently discovered the potential of css... The idea is great. The implementation sucks. Or, less brutally, CSS has not been adopted integrally by any of the current web browsers and, therefore, lacks stability when deploying to many browsers on many platforms. (kind of late, I know)... I'll say. That ship passed eons ago. ;-) and I do believe that good design can make a difference. Who could argue with that! :) Zope is great but it comes with a learning curve. Yup! :( __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: php wikis
Hello David and y'all, Found another one recently: did you know that the first Wiki was developed in HyperCard... then the guy looked at porting it to MC... Not developped in HyperCard. Only *inspired* by it. Btw, the guy's name is Ward Cunningham, he's a colleague of Kent Beck (which visited us recently while he was on tour); together, they started the whole trend of Agile methodologies, e.g. Rapid Application Development (RAD), not unlike what we're used to with HyperCard. Take a look at this about the history of wikis http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiHistory Check out this page of their wiki too: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HyperCard It's a wiki, so I took the liberty of adding my own bit at the end of the page. It seemed like a good place to plug FreeCard because (1) FreeCard is being programmed in Java, (2) the methodology used is the same one being used by the members and promoters of this wiki, e.g. XP, and (3) I am a *member* of the XP group being hosted on this wiki. Small world, eh! :)) PS: Blogs are very hot right now. FreeCard has its own blog now, at : http://www.communautic.uqam.ca/blog/ . A blog is similar to a wiki, and many existing blogs were crafted with wiki source-code. But the 'kicker' is that all blogs ( apparently some wikis too) can be remotely controlled via any client that supports XML-RPC, and ... I've just started a project to craft such a client with MetaCard. IOW, you will soon be able to use my MC-stack to edit blogs and wikis, from within MetaCard FreeGUI, without the need for a *separate* web-browser or e-mail client. It's all coming together. What a trip! :)) Alain Farmer __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
