Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Walt, First of all , I've asked the list HOW do you access the archives, and to date i still don't know how the hell to do it nor have I received any kind of help on the matter. Second , What have you against these two gentlemen. Hey, they tutored me over the phone for a year , and did'nt screw me out of a lot of hard earned money .They sold me museum quality specimens because I did my homework and knew what a museum quality specimen should look like. It means a flawless 1/8 diamond saw slice of Imilac, 50% olivine 50% Ni/Fe that you can see your reflection in like a perfect mirror. So, Walt, please tell me how I can access the ARCHIVES and tell me what I will find there?. What, some uninformed joker trashing Ron Farrell and the bravest meteorite hunter and dealer of quality meteorites in history, Bob Haag, a fair seller and donator of free specimens to scientific institutions. Robert haag alone has contributed more to the science we're all trying to learn more about together on this (IMCA) of ours. Is that why you started off your Reply that way- what's up with that?. I honestly don't get it . What did they ever do to you?. I'm not trying to be nasty or anything like that Walt, just really would like to know your reason for starting off your post that way. What part of my homework did'nt I do? Seriously, how do you access these frieken archives everybody refers to. Thanks for any info. and explanation. Roman N. (IMCA# 0583) From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:04:48 -0500 Roman- You wrote: ...and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and with established World Class Reputable Dealers and ...know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. and Do your homework... Roman, with all due respect, I think the time it took you to write this message would have been better spent doing homework of your own. The list archives would be a good place to start -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com - Original Message - From: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Anyone buying meteorites should do their homework before purchasing a meteorite as far as I'm concerned. I spent a whole year studying -up on meteorites. With Bob Haag's and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and the many phone call's that they graciously put up with , I bought the right pieces for the right prices- no hacksaw'ed pallasites with uneven cuts and lousy polishes and rust stained , no 95% fusion crust that's only 20%, no Canyon Diablo's that were some cheap-ass Chinese fall- you get the picture. If people want to deal with these Dealer Wannabes on E-bay who are less than reputable, and not with established World Class Reputable Dealers then it's on them.I personally buy from catalogs and know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. Stay away from E-bay (rhyme) Do your homework or possibly get Srewed and receive a (mica schist ) Allende with CAI'S and Wowy Gee Willickers, a one of a kind slag meteorite from an unknown mining civilization in our own Solar System, no less. There's really no excuse except laziness and the rush to recklessly buy these unclassified , unanalyzed, just totally unethical sellers of pseudo-meteorites and thousands of other items through Thievery web sites. I don't care if the Dealer Wannabe's think they're selling real meteorites, it's the persons job - the one buying the meteorite - to make sure one way or another that it is a meteorite- the real deal Have A Good Night. ( I M C A # 0583) Roman N. -Informed Collector From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:12:28 + Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in Former Members. as someone has already pointed out, such an arraingment would open one's self up to liable, as a specific person is making the statement, as opposed to the imca if it were ever incorporated. if the imca is going to allow / force
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now (list archive)
At 03.27 28/02/2004 -0500, you wrote: First of all , I've asked the list HOW do you access the archives, and to date i still don't know how the hell to do it nor have I received Here is the link to the meteorite list archives: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/ They are very useful. bye, Dave __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
From: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Second , What have you against these two gentlemen. *snip* What, some uninformed joker trashing Ron Farrell and the bravest meteorite hunter and dealer of quality meteorites in history, Bob Haag not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I bet ya a nickle that ron farrell was the sole intended target of the previously mentioned 'trashing' _ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Thanks Kelly From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 02:44:52 -0600 The URL of the Archives is: http://www.meteoritecentral.com/archives.shtml Sterling K. Webb - Roman Nakonechny wrote: Walt, First of all , I've asked the list HOW do you access the archives, and to date i still don't know how the hell to do it nor have I received any kind of help on the matter. Second , What have you against these two gentlemen. Hey, they tutored me over the phone for a year , and did'nt screw me out of a lot of hard earned money .They sold me museum quality specimens because I did my homework and knew what a museum quality specimen should look like. It means a flawless 1/8 diamond saw slice of Imilac, 50% olivine 50% Ni/Fe that you can see your reflection in like a perfect mirror. So, Walt, please tell me how I can access the ARCHIVES and tell me what I will find there?. What, some uninformed joker trashing Ron Farrell and the bravest meteorite hunter and dealer of quality meteorites in history, Bob Haag, a fair seller and donator of free specimens to scientific institutions. Robert haag alone has contributed more to the science we're all trying to learn more about together on this (IMCA) of ours. Is that why you started off your Reply that way- what's up with that?. I honestly don't get it . What did they ever do to you?. I'm not trying to be nasty or anything like that Walt, just really would like to know your reason for starting off your post that way. What part of my homework did'nt I do? Seriously, how do you access these frieken archives everybody refers to. Thanks for any info. and explanation. Roman N. (IMCA# 0583) From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:04:48 -0500 Roman- You wrote: ...and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and with established World Class Reputable Dealers and ...know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. and Do your homework... Roman, with all due respect, I think the time it took you to write this message would have been better spent doing homework of your own. The list archives would be a good place to start -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com - Original Message - From: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Anyone buying meteorites should do their homework before purchasing a meteorite as far as I'm concerned. I spent a whole year studying -up on meteorites. With Bob Haag's and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and the many phone call's that they graciously put up with , I bought the right pieces for the right prices- no hacksaw'ed pallasites with uneven cuts and lousy polishes and rust stained , no 95% fusion crust that's only 20%, no Canyon Diablo's that were some cheap-ass Chinese fall- you get the picture. If people want to deal with these Dealer Wannabes on E-bay who are less than reputable, and not with established World Class Reputable Dealers then it's on them.I personally buy from catalogs and know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. Stay away from E-bay (rhyme) Do your homework or possibly get Srewed and receive a (mica schist ) Allende with CAI'S and Wowy Gee Willickers, a one of a kind slag meteorite from an unknown mining civilization in our own Solar System, no less. There's really no excuse except laziness and the rush to recklessly buy these unclassified , unanalyzed, just totally unethical sellers of pseudo-meteorites and thousands of other items through Thievery web sites. I don't care if the Dealer Wannabe's think they're selling real meteorites, it's the persons job - the one buying the meteorite - to make sure one way or another that it is a meteorite- the real deal Have A Good Night. ( I M C A # 0583) Roman N. -Informed Collector From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:12:28 + Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now (list archive)
Thank You for the link , Dave. I had to get it from Italy and I'm in Pennsylvania, U.S.A. . Aint that a Cadella. Good Morning Over the Great Blue Atlantic From: Basilicofresco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now (list archive) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:07:01 +0100 At 03.27 28/02/2004 -0500, you wrote: First of all , I've asked the list HOW do you access the archives, and to date i still don't know how the hell to do it nor have I received Here is the link to the meteorite list archives: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/ They are very useful. bye, Dave __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Get fast, reliable access with MSN 9 Dial-up. Click here for Special Offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Hi Roman and all, Roman Nakonechny wrote: They sold me museum quality specimens because I did my homework and knew what a museum quality specimen should look like. This might be more true than you realize. Contact me off list and I will offer you other sources to get your information from. Also check out in the British Catalog of Meteorites (newest, Monica Grady) Nova 1, Nova 2 and Nova 3 for some interesting reading. --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites (who only sells museum like quality meteorites :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Hi Al and List, Ahhh yes. I had forgotten about the Nova meteorites. Also, there was that business of selling unauthorized copies of Fred's Ensisheim print. And wasn't it last year when some Canyon Diablo appeared on ebay for what, about $5.00/gram? -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com - Original Message - From: almitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Hi Roman and all, Roman Nakonechny wrote: They sold me museum quality specimens because I did my homework and knew what a museum quality specimen should look like. This might be more true than you realize. Contact me off list and I will offer you other sources to get your information from. Also check out in the British Catalog of Meteorites (newest, Monica Grady) Nova 1, Nova 2 and Nova 3 for some interesting reading. --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites (who only sells museum like quality meteorites :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
My first meteorite was a Canyon Diablo, that I bought from Farrell. As I remember, it was pretty expensive. He's got some great looking catalogs, but his prices our out of the range of most people in my opinion. I remember getting an issue of Astronomy that had an article on collecting meteorites and after the article, there was a listing of meteorite collectors. I couldn't believe there were so many people that were selling meteorites besides the one. My second set of meteorites came from Al Mitterling and I still have them. I've also bought from a number of other dealers. Mike Farmer, Rob Elliot, Sergey Vasiliev, Bob Haagand Mike Casper to name a few. Everyone of the dealers I have bought from have sent me great specimens and the prices were great. Also, these dealers are all very honest and have taken the time to choose the right specimens for me. If I only had a few hundred to spend (or less), it didn't matter. There are varying degrees of quality for meteorites, I agree, but the above dealersthat I mentioned and more that I haven't have museum quality specimens for sale or can obtain them if that is what you want. Some people may have differing opinions of Mr.. Casper but he was always very helpful to meso we won't get in to that :-) Jamie
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Anyone buying meteorites should do their homework before purchasing a meteorite as far as I'm concerned. I spent a whole year studying -up on meteorites. With Bob Haag's and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and the many phone call's that they graciously put up with , I bought the right pieces for the right prices- no hacksaw'ed pallasites with uneven cuts and lousy polishes and rust stained , no 95% fusion crust that's only 20%, no Canyon Diablo's that were some cheap-ass Chinese fall- you get the picture. If people want to deal with these Dealer Wannabes on E-bay who are less than reputable, and not with established World Class Reputable Dealers then it's on them.I personally buy from catalogs and know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. Stay away from E-bay (rhyme) Do your homework or possibly get Srewed and receive a (mica schist ) Allende with CAI'S and Wowy Gee Willickers, a one of a kind slag meteorite from an unknown mining civilization in our own Solar System, no less. There's really no excuse except laziness and the rush to recklessly buy these unclassified , unanalyzed, just totally unethical sellers of pseudo-meteorites and thousands of other items through Thievery web sites. I don't care if the Dealer Wannabe's think they're selling real meteorites, it's the persons job - the one buying the meteorite - to make sure one way or another that it is a meteorite- the real deal Have A Good Night. ( I M C A # 0583) Roman N. -Informed Collector From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:12:28 + Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in Former Members. as someone has already pointed out, such an arraingment would open one's self up to liable, as a specific person is making the statement, as opposed to the imca if it were ever incorporated. if the imca is going to allow / force individual members to put their neck out in exposing fruad / possible fraud, then there really isnt much point for the group to exist, at least not if the type of efforts the list is talking about are to be actually followed through on.. _ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With Bob Haag's and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge... Um. If people want to deal with these Dealer Wannabes on E-bay who are less than reputable, and not with established World Class Reputable Dealers then it's on them.I personally buy from catalogs and know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. Um. Stay away from E-bay Umyour self-apprised "informed" advice is to buy from Ron Farrell, but stay away from ebay? Do your homework Um. There's really no excuse except laziness and the rush to recklessly buy from.[snip]. just totally unethical sellers Roman N. - Informed Collector Always room for MORE information. ;-) GregoryJ. Gregory Wilson2118 Wilshire Blvd. #918Santa Monica, CA 90403
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Roman- You wrote: ...and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and with established World Class Reputable Dealers and ...know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. and Do your homework... Roman, with all due respect, I think the time it took you to write this message would have been better spent doing homework of your own. The list archives would be a good place to start -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com - Original Message - From: Roman Nakonechny [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Anyone buying meteorites should do their homework before purchasing a meteorite as far as I'm concerned. I spent a whole year studying -up on meteorites. With Bob Haag's and Ron Farrell's advice and great knowledge and the many phone call's that they graciously put up with , I bought the right pieces for the right prices- no hacksaw'ed pallasites with uneven cuts and lousy polishes and rust stained , no 95% fusion crust that's only 20%, no Canyon Diablo's that were some cheap-ass Chinese fall- you get the picture. If people want to deal with these Dealer Wannabes on E-bay who are less than reputable, and not with established World Class Reputable Dealers then it's on them.I personally buy from catalogs and know who I'm talking to and it's the same two mentioned above. Stay away from E-bay (rhyme) Do your homework or possibly get Srewed and receive a (mica schist ) Allende with CAI'S and Wowy Gee Willickers, a one of a kind slag meteorite from an unknown mining civilization in our own Solar System, no less. There's really no excuse except laziness and the rush to recklessly buy these unclassified , unanalyzed, just totally unethical sellers of pseudo-meteorites and thousands of other items through Thievery web sites. I don't care if the Dealer Wannabe's think they're selling real meteorites, it's the persons job - the one buying the meteorite - to make sure one way or another that it is a meteorite- the real deal Have A Good Night. ( I M C A # 0583) Roman N. -Informed Collector From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:12:28 + Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in Former Members. as someone has already pointed out, such an arraingment would open one's self up to liable, as a specific person is making the statement, as opposed to the imca if it were ever incorporated. if the imca is going to allow / force individual members to put their neck out in exposing fruad / possible fraud, then there really isnt much point for the group to exist, at least not if the type of efforts the list is talking about are to be actually followed through on.. _ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Doug and List, I met Doug for the first time at the Tucson Show just a few weeks ago. He was one of the people on my to meet short list because I have been very impressed with his depth of vision and a superb ability to express it in type. This is the best post I've seen in the last several years dealing with the issue of Ebay and the selling of suspect meteorites. Over the years, there have been several attempts by well-meaning people to do something to curb the sales of non-meteoritic material as genuine meteorites. All of us know what the result has been: our in-boxes get filled with endless threads about so-and-so bad guy selling meteorwrongs on ebay. What have we accomplished in the past, say, four years? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an admirable goal to want to make the wrong things in this world right, but unless progress is being made and the end result matches the original goal, what is the point? Back in 1999, a former list member started the Meteorite Sheriff Posse. He personally selected the members he wanted to be in the group and then galloped off on his cyber stallion to rid Ebay of fraudulent meteorite sellers. While there were some interesting moments with this group, the overall result was failure and a lot of wasted time. If the IMCA leadership think policing Ebay should be part of their mission, I suggest they take a good look at what Mexico Doug has to say. Personally, I think that unless a deceptive dealer is a member of the IMCA, no direct action should be taken. A lot of resources that could be applied in a positive and rewarding direction are being used up trying to fight the bad guys one at a time. Thank you Doug for getting us to take a different look at an old problem. Best, John Gwilliam At 11:40 PM 2/23/2004 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe: Unless you become a victim, there is not a whole lot you can do legally. And that IS sad. I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider: First, what is the goal? Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance: 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning power? Ans: No. 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group. 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing. 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway ... no perceived problem. It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $. I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members interested in policing the eBay world start
Re: Spam Alert: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Doug, I want to applaud your suggestion. I have tried something similar on my web site. I listed current questionable auctions. However, I could not contact the people that were bidding or had purchased due to ebay rules. eBay Policy "* Members are not allowed to interfere with another member's transaction. * Members are not permitted to email buyers in an open or completed transaction to warn them away from a seller or item. If you have a problem with a transaction, please use the feedback forum and review our Fraud Protection Program. " Also, I learned the hard way that my web site could also be used against me. My decision was to limit it only to IMCA members, but have been too busy to work on it lately. I am convinced that it is wise to keep any negative info within the bounds of IMCA. IMCA has a closed forum that allows its members to be warned in advance. I run auctions, the purpose to direct interested ones to IMCA membership. This glassface1 can burn some newbies. However, those burnt will learn of IMCA and ask for membership. If there are legal ways to help, I am open to suggestions. I really like "We are a non-profit organization helping buyers get authentic meteorites." A web page or two devoted to what to look for, what to ask, when to walk away, etc. would be nice! Best, Ken Newton http://www.imca.cc/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe: Unless you become a victim, there is not a whole lot you can do legally. And that IS sad. I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider: First, what is the goal? Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance: 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning power? Ans: No. 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group. 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing. 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway ... no perceived problem. It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $. I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose. Now the three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to spend it efficiently? ... The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being marketed as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing efforts. For example every time I make a search on Google for meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by one distinguished member who has his
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
First, thanks to John Gwilliam for the real nice comments and hope there is an idea or two worth discussing in my contribution... just hoping I can still to do some cussing once in a while without any eloquence. The last post on fraudbusting was an investment of time, mainly for the reasons John cited: a filled up inbox of complaints that I am sympathetic to, but that become tediously repetitive. Further I´d like to agree that keeping things positive is probably the nicest message for the IMCA to go. Let me qualify that by saying I met the IMCA directors by briefly crashing uninvited their quite serious meeting to address recent unrelated issues, in hopes of meeting some new meteorite people, not even being a member, and yet to sell a meteorite in this lifetime. So the value of my opinion is still as an outsider with no real interest other not to make anyone too irate over what I say and maybe try to make a few like minded friends. Next, and only second in order because I would prefer to stay positive - it is good for IMCA's image - Ken mentioned ebay policy regarding contacting buyers. If taken properly out of context, which is assumed, ebay is clearly more worried about preventing potential chaos from dubious messages to buyers in the purchase process and requires a victim to go it alone even when intentions are good. That seems a bit of a departure from the rules of a real flea market, and probably enough to kill the idea of throwing a wrench into fradulent transactions directly. But it doesn't mean there the website isn't open to inviting potentiasl victims to learn more and act on fraud one it is confirmed they were and feel victimized. That seems a better route to go anyway. So some variation of the strawman letter in my last post appropriately and posted on the IMCA website. While it is a must to work in the confines of the rules (Drawing the distinction between ebay rules and illegality, keeping in mind who the real suspected offenders are), perhaps an honest variation of a subsequent meek contact might be ok, if it is based on a question of feedback that they left. I.e., you left positive feedback for "Galaxyglassyhead" yet I have heard from some IMCA members (link imca.org) that this person (not a direct link, but a clear way to link to the complaint page against "Galaxyglassyhead" on the IMCA site) is suspected of selling fakes. Can you give me any information on your experience with authenticating your item? Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: "While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in "Former Members". Ken, finally you said: "This glassface1 can burn some newbies. However, those burnt will learn of IMCA and ask for membership." I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. My first "meteorite" purchases were a few rocks from a "suspected" dishonest person: my entire travel budget for that trip - and although that person - a rancher - had no use for a computer, I was burnt just the same. Call it a rite of passage, I bet this is the rule with most of the list members. That was $100 embarrassingly well spent on rocks from a cattle ranch for me, because it motivated me to study the subject seriously, buy a microscope and use it, reference books, join this list, and learn a heck of a lot in a short time. If someone tried to prevent me from touching the hot stove and getting burnt at that first time, I am not sure I would have been overly receptive given that it was the fantasy I was buying and it was real good while it lasted. I am not even sure what I would tell the cowboy if I saw him again. He didn't give me a written guaranty although he expressed HE was sure they were meteorites. I still have doubts what he knew. The only painful detail is that I still have the stones and each one has evidence of having been subjected to a streak test before I ever saw them. I relate this story because it seems appropriate that I recall what mindset I had as a first time buyer and how I would have best been won over by the IMCA as such - definitely not as a policeman ... seems to go against human nature and most importantly developing fun and trust. Hope not to be too wordy or inconsistent! Saludos! Doug
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in Former Members. as someone has already pointed out, such an arraingment would open one's self up to liable, as a specific person is making the statement, as opposed to the imca if it were ever incorporated. if the imca is going to allow / force individual members to put their neck out in exposing fruad / possible fraud, then there really isnt much point for the group to exist, at least not if the type of efforts the list is talking about are to be actually followed through on.. _ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Hello Stan and list, The IMCA consists of a pretty good group of people and the IMCA's intentions are great! A lot of problems on ebay would be solved if all of the honest sellers would just join the group! If just about every seller was a member and stated the IMCA's intentions on there auctions, buyers could soon see, that the IMCA members are the ones to buy from and would stay clear of the others. Great sellers like Mike Farmer not being a member (or at least not mentioning on his auctions) make things tough on those new buyers, well he's a great seller (from feedback) and he is not a member so I guess this seller glassface1 must be ok to! Mike, please join! : ) and all you other non members. If you do not like the IMCA, then maybe it is time to start a second group? Thanks, Tom peregrineflier IMCA #6168 - Original Message - From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Finally, the IMCA, if going that route, can play the same game as ebay: While all of our members are in good standing, the organization is not responsible for the comments of the anti fraud squad section of the website, and provides it only as a convenient free service to interchange feedback of potential interest to buyers concerned with authenticity of their purchases. Comments reflect the opinions of the posters, and IMCA does not permit members in good standing to post knowingly false or misleading feedback. Any member doing so will be expelled and such expulsion documented on this site in Former Members. as someone has already pointed out, such an arraingment would open one's self up to liable, as a specific person is making the statement, as opposed to the imca if it were ever incorporated. if the imca is going to allow / force individual members to put their neck out in exposing fruad / possible fraud, then there really isnt much point for the group to exist, at least not if the type of efforts the list is talking about are to be actually followed through on.. _ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Spam Alert: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Hi Ken and Mexico Doug, Reading Ken's message got me to thinking a bit. I am at the bottom of the list messages for today so this may have already been addressed but will go ahead and post. We may not be allowed to interact with uncompleted auctions or auctions that have ended (like contacting a bidder or buyer) but when we see something that isn't quite right or fraud, wouldn't that be a great time to mysteriously mail an invitation to those bidders or buyers to join the IMCA (tell what we are about) and let them know about auctions we find questionable. It would then be them contacting us and us avoiding interfering with ebay policy. Having some links to rights and wrongs they could begin to understand. It would also allow them to give the appropriate feedback to the real frauds out there. I run across people all the time who truly think they have a meteorite and such people may list there meteorite on places like ebay not knowing. It is important to educate those people and not jump on them. Perhaps they will come across something some other time and it will result in a new meteorite. I know talking to one recent auction listee of such a wrong was harassed something terrible by a number of IMCA members. I doubt she will ever contact anyone ever again with any find she may run across because of this. Let the leaders of the IMCA do their work so we get others involved and so they have a positive experience rather than getting mobbed by our less desirable members. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Dear List, This feller' Mr. Doug is a genious I feel. Very well put. Dave With an F, a big proud F. John K. Gwilliam wrote: Doug and List, I met Doug for the first time at the Tucson Show just a few weeks ago. He was one of the people on my to meet short list because I have been very impressed with his depth of vision and a superb ability to express it in type. This is the best post I've seen in the last several years dealing with the issue of Ebay and the selling of suspect meteorites. Over the years, there have been several attempts by well-meaning people to do something to curb the sales of non-meteoritic material as genuine meteorites. All of us know what the result has been: our in-boxes get filled with endless threads about so-and-so bad guy selling meteorwrongs on ebay. What have we accomplished in the past, say, four years? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an admirable goal to want to make the wrong things in this world right, but unless progress is being made and the end result matches the original goal, what is the point? Back in 1999, a former list member started the Meteorite Sheriff Posse. He personally selected the members he wanted to be in the group and then galloped off on his cyber stallion to rid Ebay of fraudulent meteorite sellers. While there were some interesting moments with this group, the overall result was failure and a lot of wasted time. If the IMCA leadership think policing Ebay should be part of their mission, I suggest they take a good look at what Mexico Doug has to say. Personally, I think that unless a deceptive dealer is a member of the IMCA, no direct action should be taken. A lot of resources that could be applied in a positive and rewarding direction are being used up trying to fight the bad guys one at a time. Thank you Doug for getting us to take a different look at an old problem. Best, John Gwilliam At 11:40 PM 2/23/2004 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe: Unless you become a victim, there is not a whole lot you can do legally. And that IS sad. I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider: First, what is the goal? Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance: 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning power? Ans: No. 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group. 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing. 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway ... no perceived problem. It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $. I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you buy with
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Title: Nachricht well, hasn't someone bought from this seller now? Therefore, when the article arrives, it should be analyzed by one of our experts, and a signedanalysis submitted for mail fraud. - Original Message - From: Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 1:36 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Someone from the US just HAS to report this seller to ebay: http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2227843817category=3239 Bernhard
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Hello list and Mark, Mark asked "well, hasn't someone bought from this seller now? Therefore, when the article arrives, it should be analyzed by one of our experts, and a signedanalysis submitted for mail fraud." This seller also has no feedback. Perhaps the IMCA could create a eBay account, like "fakemeteoritebuyer", "Ionlybuyfakemeteorites", "biddingonfakemeteorites" or the like. I am sure we could keep a little fund going to purchase the cheaper ones, then they could recycled back onto eBay like John's auction.. Mark Bostick www.meteoritearticles.com
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Mark and list, There is an artifact collector who goes by the name I buy fakes. Don't know if he's still using that handle but he would bid on fakes. Other potential bidders would see his bid, and perhaps curious, click on his about me ebay page, where they would find a dissertation on the great proliferation of fake artifacts on ebay, and how to avoid them. Perhaps 30% of Native American artifacts on ebay are fake, and this was his way of doing his part to fight back. Regards, Charlie ---BeginMessage--- Hello list and Mark, Mark asked "well, hasn't someone bought from this seller now? Therefore, when the article arrives, it should be analyzed by one of our experts, and a signedanalysis submitted for mail fraud." This seller also has no feedback. Perhaps the IMCA could create a eBay account, like "fakemeteoritebuyer", "Ionlybuyfakemeteorites", "biddingonfakemeteorites" or the like. I am sure we could keep a little fund going to purchase the cheaper ones, then they could recycled back onto eBay like John's auction.. Mark Bostick www.meteoritearticles.com ---End Message---
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
At one point, there used to be someone on ebay whose handle was fraudbuster. He would do the same thing as ibuyfakes, but usually only for meteorites. I think he failed to pay or bid-retracted on one too many auctions, and the handle fell into disuse or was NARU'd. Inititally, I like the thought of having an IMCA ebay account to buy up fakes, but you get someone like golfyx with dozens of pseudo-meteorite auctions, or glassface with one or two with outrageous starting bids, and the fund would be tapped fairly quickly. Then you get into the whole hassle of trying to get your money back from a fake (obviously, you don't want to let the fakers keep their ill-gotten gains). Why SUPPORT frauds, in any way? Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Devine) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (MARK BOSTICK) CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Meteorite List) Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:47:59 -0500 (EST) Mark and list, There is an artifact collector who goes by the name I buy fakes. Don't know if he's still using that handle but he would bid on fakes. Other potential bidders would see his bid, and perhaps curious, click on his about me ebay page, where they would find a dissertation on the great proliferation of fake artifacts on ebay, and how to avoid them. Perhaps 30% of Native American artifacts on ebay are fake, and this was his way of doing his part to fight back. Regards, Charlie _ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
> Someone from the US just HAS to report this seller to ebay Those living in the LA area (residence of 'glassface1') can report this to attorney general's office. The AG may act without an actual victim, if enough complain. (you can always volunteer to be a fraud victim :>( Those who are frustrated at ebay's lack of co-operation in allowing circumstances like this can speak to them directly. But expect little: eBay Corporate Offices: (408) 558-7400 (408) 558-7401 1-800-322-9266 1-888-749-3229 1-408-558-7400 1-408-376-6554 FAX Hours: 7:30AM - 5:30PM PT M-F Employee's Extension: press 1 Dial by name directory: press 0 Customer Service: press 2 Operator: press 3 I only suffered additional frustration as the ebay oprator directed me back to the ebay web site. ( If you have 'pop-up blockers- on' you cannot see key safety harbor reporting form links.) I spoke to an organization that helps in reporting interent fraud http://www.fraud.org/ . They report to the FTC. They admitt the FTC only deals with reports by victims who have actually lost money. Unless you become a victim, there is not a whole lot you can do legally. And that IS sad. Best, ken # 9632 P.S. I wonder if the 'hint of' or 'actually' reporting the matter to the Press, would shake things up? Bernhard \"Rendelius\" Rems wrote: Someone from the US just HAS to report this seller to ebay:http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2227843817category=3239Bernhard
Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe: Unless you become a victim, there is not a whole lot you can do legally. And that IS sad. I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider: First, what is the goal? Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance: 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning power? Ans: No. 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group. 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing. 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway ... no perceived problem. It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $. I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose. Now the three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to spend it efficiently? ... The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being marketed as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing efforts. For example every time I make a search on Google for meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by one distinguished member who has his marketing act together. Why don't I see the IMCA there, too. "We are a non-profit organization helping buyers get authentic meteorites. Click for a free guide on-line auction fraud and eBay offenders." How much could that cost? Less than the policing effort? I would think so. And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there if I had nothing else to do. No inventing of clever ways to alert bidders... A wrong plus another wrong doesn't always work well. Rather, perhaps a little patience, and then follow-up to the buyers who were truly robbed. Subject "International Meteorite Collectors Association" Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: We are the IMCA, an organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity with a special group that polices on-line auction fraud. Several members routinely peruse eBay auctions and bring fraud to attention when it is suspected. While we recognize some buyers may not be concerned with the authenticity of their recent meteorite purchase for their own personal reasons, we direct this message to those who are concerned with authenticity. First, IMCA agrees with the definition in __ dictionary: A rock or iron originating from outer space that can be proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage through the Earth's atmosphere. If this is what you intended to purchase, we feel there is
[meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.
Title: Nachricht Someone from the US just HAS to report this seller to ebay: http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2227843817category=3239 Bernhard
