Re: [meteorite-list] Re-2: Titicaca meteorite-- phinally, photos
Hello Listoids and Listoid Emeritus Bernd --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, no chance under such circumstances. The Kirin (Jilin) meteorite main mass was found at a depth of almost six meters and this was only possible because the ground (loessal clay) was still almost frozen ... quite unlike this waterhole filled with filthy water Recovered meteorites are no stranger to water... Norton County and the Carancas fragments remind me so much of the very friable meteorite Bjurböle, which fell in Finland in 1899. As reported below, it was extracted from 7 meters of mud through a foot of sea ice by divers in the days before heated SCUBA suits ... Amazing! Bjurböle is the biggest meteorite fall or find in Finland so far. This meteorite was broken in many pieces when it hits the sea ice of gulf of Finland after widely observed bright fireball and sonic booms. Pieces were recovered from 8 meters deep (0.4 meter ice 0.5 meter water and 7 meters mud) by divers. Meteorite made 4 meter wide hole in the ice and mud was spread over 24 x 33 m wide area around the hole. This meteorite is famous by its big condrules and because it is very fragile. ...Jarmo Moilanen's website http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/met/mbjurb_e.htm Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Slickensides vs. Shock Veins..was Nice photos of Carancas Meteorite
Hi Elton, you are right with the slickensides. But some comments on Maskelynite: It is NOT from olivine ! it is a glassy mineral which has a composition of plagioclase feldspar. It results from quenching from shock induced melt ! ref: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc99/pdf/5047.pdf Harald - Original von: Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Graham,List and-- Expeditionary Members, wherever you are It is an easy mistake in the broad scheme of things but the striation features in these photos are not shock veins but slickensides. Slickensides are the slippage surfaces of micro/macro faults where each side is ground down in a natural milling process. In terrestrial geology, they may be filled with any of several clay sediments-- some of which includes melt/fusion particles (Google slickenside to see that there is a book's worth of information that slickensides can reveal about rock and soil dynamic history. One branch of my collecting is assembling and cataloging slickensides samples and locations..self gratuitous grin inserted here) Slickensides accumulate a rock flour-like debris which tends to lubricate and as a demarcation of chemical and physical bonding between opposing surfaces-- it keeps the adjacent sides from cementing. Unhealed, they are natural lines of weakness. It makes perfect sense that on one of those fragments pictured late flight fragmentation shows a secondary fusion on a preserved slickenside: probably a rare, even unique surface feature as I know of no other example preserved outside of post flight/ground impact fragmentation. (e.g. Zag) Shock veins on the other hand, are filled with the mineral maskelynite which is the ultra compact spinel form of olivine. It forms in very high pressure environments such as asteroid collisions/shock events or deep within planets. Maskelynite is one of the major mineral forms in deep mantle here inside Earth. In meteorites, the shock vein acts to cement the sides together ceramically--known as a healed fracture, it becomes stronger and less likely to fracture along the shock vein itself. Elton --- ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This looks like the real thing when compared to others I have seen or heard discribed. Any comments about the features welcome. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list --- Versendet durch aonWebmail (webmail.aon.at) Hier spielt die Musik! Über zwei Millionen Songs zum Downloaden. http://www.aon.at/musikdownload __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article
Hi List amigos, Just curious ... Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly powder inside, especially for a meteorite that sheds like this one particularly along its natural 'fault' lines. Let me add that the collision physics probably is greatly different as the ground is a great deal more compressible than a typical collision where the rate of the speed of sound traveling from end and back determines the stresses experienced. This is basically the difference between dividing by zero time to dividing by an extended time caused by the detrital inclusions in the energy absorbing sink. The six meter depth of the crater in all likelyhood is an indication of significant damping more than anything else. As is the great diameter a testimony of the characteristic of the ability of the ground to absorb shock. The difference between falling from an altitude to a marble floor or a to bank of snow where you leave a big hole. Even a three tone stone meteorite wouldn't be expected to maintain any cosmic velocity, and if it did by some stretch, it should have long sheered apart as it hit dense atmosphere. Another random comment I have is that despite the observed peeing in the crater, the marly clay soil is quite basic (pH = 7.8 vs. acidic), so we may be lucky in that the meteorite remains preserved more than we think. Finally, without any disrespect meant, I wanted to nominate the informal name of this meteorite to be the Pisco Sour meteorite (even though it is now quite alkaline). Best health, Doug PS Randall, with all respect due and no malice intended, that joke you told about the Arequipan Republic makes you as the joke teller a homosexual girl, a result I don't think you intended (and please don't shoot the messenger). Run by your wife the version you posted exactly and see if she busts out laughing like we did. But hey a little joshing is good for the soul... - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article Hi, The only good news here is that the notorious meteoritotrafficantes americanos have hopefully slipped across the bandit border into Boliva. police had searched for the meteorite hunters at their hotel but were unable to catch them because they had left. I was thinking it was getting near the time to get out of Dodge; wasn't everybody? Mike, get out of there. It will be interesting to watch the local scientific authorities remove the massive multi-ton meteorite from the muddy pit, from under five meters of water, without draining it, as they said they would, before the crater vanishes in a few months (as they also said it would). Just kidding. Only problem is, after kicking numbers and reports around for a day or two, I don't think that there's anything under that mud but more mud. According to the INGEMMET report, the windows of a dwelling over 1000 meters away from the crater were broken and blown out by the impact. I believe that is diagnostic of a hypersonic impact (greater than 340 m/s). Using the figure for average terrestrial rock, it only takes about 100 joules per gram to powder it to dust. At the speed of sound, each gram of the meteoroid has 60 joules of kinetic energy; at Mach 1.3 (450 m/s), it has 100 joules per gram. At 1000 m/s (or about Mach 3), it has over 500 joules per gram. Mike Farmer said, The meteorite is very fragile, very porous... I doubt very much that it would take 100 joules (granite takes 100 joules) to be dusted. Mike also mentioned locally taken photos that showed incredible amounts of meteorite powder. And lastly, it seems from those photos Mike saw (and the photgrapher's story) that the fireball's ablative smoke trail was visible pretty much all the way to the crater location and the mushroom cloud. That would mean that the object was in ablative flight all the way to the ground. (It's worthwhile to point out that ablation requires more than merely hypersonic speeds.) Then there's Dr. Daniels a.k.a. Gregory's report of the tiny dust-like particles he meteoritotrafficanted from a little old lady -- that's evidence that the crushing strength of the material was exceeded, and because it was outside the crater, must have come from the most protected part of the impactor: its backside. That meteorite is dust. No matter what it massed, there's nothing in that mudpit. And it's OK with me if I'm wrong and somebody winches a ton or two of meteorite out of the mud; it would be a great day. But... don't hold your breath. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007
[meteorite-list] CARANCAS STORY, nothing but the facts, in order and to set story strait
List members, I am home after 22 hours of travel today, thank god. I am exhausted, no sleep for at least 3 days, imagine how I do not want to write this tonight, but must get my side out there. I am going to give you all the exact truth about this debacle, take it as you will. Moritz Karl, Robert Ward and myself traveled to Peru and arrived at the crater on Saturday. We arrived in Desaguadero and immediately went to the border police (you walk across a bridge from Bolivia so the police stand there on the bridge). I am FLUENT IN SPANISH, so I spoke with the police about the meteorite. Within seconds I had bought pieces from them, as they all had pieces of the meteorite in their pockets. They agreed to take us to the crater, and the called Major Anaya to confirm, he suggested armed guards since the locals do not like the police and we went in TWO police trucks to the crater. When we arrived, there was a kid there from Puno university doing some study with an antenna and laptop. The crater was closed off by the locals. I spoke with them, told them who I was and that we were here to see the meteorite crater and to buy pieces. Within minutes we were allowed into the crater, and the university kid begged me to get him in too, the locals had refused him entry. This is the same kid who wrote in the Peru newspaper yesterday that I had him barred from the crater and interfered with his studied by telling the locals to banish him! I got him in to the crater, and what did he do, lie to the newspaper! We bought many pieces over the next few hours, and the police left us at the crater, the landowner Javier, told us he would drive us back to town later. He was extremely nice, and we bought pieces of meteorite from him and paid him well each day to be our guide. We found pieces ourselves and spoke with all of the locals. I impressed the local elders and was informed that they would call a town meeting later, and we were to be invited to speak about meteorites and give advice on what to do. We attended the town assembly and I was asked to address the villagers and explain to them about meteorites, the importance of this meteorite, and what to do about it. I told them that the meteorite was harmless (the government scientists and police all told the locals that it was dangerous and could poison them and their animals while they took all of the larger pieces). I told them that the crater would be destroyed upon the first rains, and that the main mass of the meteorite was underground. the scientists had told them that the meteorite vaporized into the poison steam and there was nothing in the hole. I told them that for their town, and for science, the meteorite must be dug up as soon as possible, to preserve it from rotting in the water, and every day in the water was destroying the meteorite. They thought that tourists would come to pay to see the crater, I told them the tourists would more likely come to see the meteorite, not a mud-pit. I told them that their village was in the news all over the world, and that by digging up and protecting the meteorite, they would have even more fame, instead of regret if they let the meteorite rot in the mud. The entire town cheered me, and voted at that time to dig out the meteorite and do it carefully, preserving the crater as best they could but saving the meteorite first, since that is the important part. Sunday was uneventful, we spent the day taking video and finding pieces of the meteorite as well as buying pieces form the locals, who it seemed were all dragging speaker magnets around the area and were picking up small fragments. On Monday ,the entire town came to dig out the meteorite, the mayor of Desaguadero addressed the crowd, brought the pump, and after hours of prayers and ceremonies, began pumping out the water. After about two hours, the crater was nearly dry, then the mayor called an end to work and said that we would continue on Tuesday. We were frustrated at the 1 pm end of day and protested that the crater would just fill with water again, to no avail. Later that afternoon, we went to town and were caught by the police, Major Anaya, and interrogated in the police headquarters. There was a man from Puno who had arrived and asked us questions for about an hour or so. He seemed quite nice, wanted my advice on the meteorite, and I told him the same thing, that the meteorite must be saved at all cost and speed. He wanted me to speak to a group who would arrive on-site the next day. He said he heard we were there and came to stop the digging up of the meteorite. I told him I wanted to buy pieces, which I already had done, and in the interest of science, to have the meteorite dug up. The police were nice enough, but took our passports and information down and faxed Lima. Then they demanded that we show them where our hotel was. Needless to say, things got dicey from then on. We were a little freaked out, but not worried. Later that evening we had dinner and
[meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the submission to the Meteoritical Society? Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Regards, Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
again? Two balls Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:33:03 -0700 (PDT) So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the submission to the Meteoritical Society? Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Regards, Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
Please explain what that means Matteo. Do you find this funny? Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: again? Two balls Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:33:03 -0700 (PDT) So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the submission to the Meteoritical Society? Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Regards, Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
we have understand you have received this this and this emails, is not necessary repeat every time all... Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Please explain what that means Matteo. Do you find this funny? Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: again? Two balls Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:33:03 -0700 (PDT) So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the submission to the Meteoritical Society? Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Regards, Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article
Hi, Doug, Much has been made of the fact this is wet soil. Yes, it has a high water table and underground streams and so forth. But this is high mountain plains (Altiplano), an ancient limestone intermountain basin. The soil is rocky. Several strata of rock are visible in the crater walls. It's not a cushion. The crater depth is reported as just over 4 meters (as estimated by poling), but it was already full of water when the first local witnesses arrived, so that's an uncertain datum. I'd have to stand by my very much earlier post on the energy requirements of meteorite destruction and the velocities of that energy: Energy to powder a hard meteorite = 100 joules per gram = 450 m/s. Energy to melt a rock meteorite = 1,200 joules per gram = 1500 m/s. Energy to vaporize a meteorite = 18,000 to 25,000 joules per gram = 6000 m/s. You're absolutely right that the crater takes up the energy from the impactor. In modeling large events, it seems that the imapctor and the target share it almost evenly. But in small events, it doesn't transfer as well and the impactor hogs most of it. The Carancas crater is from an impact equal to perhaps 3 +/- 2 tons of TNT. The seismograph says five tons TNT but includes the atmospheric boom as well, so is exaggerated. The crater is characteristic of a 1 to 2 ton TNT impact. But, let me bury five or ten 50-lb cases of dynamite and I'll make you a bigger crater than that. I would rate the crater as getting about 25% of the energy out of the impact, at most. The figure of 100 joules per gram to crush rock is derived from Earthly rocks, like granite and such. I wouldn't be surprised if this meteorite crushed at far less pressure, fragile and very porous, Mike said. It would crush test at less than half the 100 joule per gram mark. Maybe much less. Gimme a piece and I'll squash it in a strain guage; we'll see. Deep craters are not a mark of the excellent cushioning qualities of the the target material, any more than a deep bullet wound is the mark of the excellent cushioning properties of the human body. Frankly, the target material does not get much of a voice in the result. The theoretical ideal crater is three times wider than it is deep, and conical, for a simple crater without rebound, breccia accumulation in the floor, and all that other stuff. The Carancas crater is 13 m by 4 m, or 3:1 just like the models, and conical. It's a classic crater. It's not an impact pit; it's an explosive crater. The cratering result is entirely (or 95%) the result of the energies involved. Working out the models showed that changing impactor material (iron vs. ice) or the target material (sand vs. basalt) didn't change the results at all. Energy rules. Even a three ton stone meteorite wouldn't be expected to maintain any cosmic velocity, and if it did by some stretch, it should have long sheered apart as it hit dense atmosphere. It's a miracle that ANYTHING makes it to the ground. I think this was a very large object that ablated away, dropping chucks the whole way, for tens of kilometers along the line of flight. It just got to the ground before it was all gone. I suspect a low entry angle helped. Mike described the boy's photos of the smoke trail from Carancas, five miles away and said that after the boy took that picture, he went to the crater. I put on my deerstalker. How did he know where the crater was? At the time the meteor flew over the village, no one knew the location of the crater. The boy followed the smoke trail to the mushroom cloud, I surmise. This would nean that the object ablated the whole way to the crater and that mushroom cloud. This does not sound like a gentle impact to me. It sounds like hypersonic ablative flight, a violently energetic impact, a thermal explosive event, a thunderous boom of passage (witnesses said it lasted for 15 minutes, but my guess it only seemed like 15 minutes), a long persisting smoke trail. The highly nervous response and illnesses of the villagers suggests a semi-traumatic event. We blab about big impacts -- oh, boy! -- on this list all the time, but what would it be like to be IN one? I know Mike is full of the dream of the big one down there in the crater bottom, but so was Barringer, absolutely convinced that there was a fortune in nickel-iron in the deep basement rock of his crater. It's a dream that's easy to catch and hard to give up. We'll see if the Peruvians come up with anything. I'm betting against it. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New Peru article Hi List amigos, Just curious ... Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly
Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos
It makes me wonder what soil/rock layers there are at the impact site. If there are some samples of the harder rock that Mike mentions maybe it is an indication of how deep the impactor went as it may have thrown up material from deeper down. Just a thought. Given how wet and muddy the surface layer seems to be, it's not hard to see that such a large mass might penetrate quite deeply down. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer To: Chris Peterson ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos Chris, it is a hell of a crater, at least 13 meters in diameter, more than one meter of uplift, looks identical to Meteor Crater to me, on a much smaller scale. There in fact does seem to be shocked material at the crater, I found only inside and just outside the crater, large pieces of compacted sandstone, yet there is no sandstone there, it seems to have solidified on the impact, everything else is more like soft mud. Large, and I mean larger pieces of sod, weighing at least 40 or 50 kilograms were thrown more than 50-100 meters, and smaller dirt clod debris thrown up to 15o meters in all directions. This is a serious impact, I mean you can call it what you want, but with the uplift, the incredible debris field thrown to all sides, the huge size, and volume of the crater itself, certainly leads me to believe that the mass weighed many tons and is obviously in the hole under some meters of fallback debris. The locals report mushroom cloud lingered for more than a hour. As far as more pieces, this meterite came in over lake Titikaka, and if you have never seen this lake, it is HUGE! I would guess that as fragil as the meteorite is, that tons of debris fell off but would most likely have all fallen into the lake, or perhaps some on the mountains just inside of Bolivia. It is not populated there, and I assume from talking to most witnesses, that the large main mass, which was a massive ball of fire much larger and brighter than the Sun, caught everyones attention pretty well, and would be so bright that smaller pieces would be drowned out by the intensity of the main mass. That is what I think happened, surely many more pieces broke off but from where the main mass hit, back down the flightpath is nothing but swamps and high mountains for about 10 miles, then 15 miles of lake. Perfect for most material to be lost. Michael Farmer --- Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What remains to be determined is if this is actually a crater, or just a big splash. In the first case, some shocked material should show up, and I think it's likely that nothing is left in the bottom. If there really is a big meteorite at the bottom, then this probably isn't a crater in the usual sense (that is, produced by a large energy release as the parent body explodes/vaporizes). I don't believe I've seen anything credible to suggest that the water was actually boiling or steaming. It doesn't take much energy to make a hole this size in soft ground- probably around 100 kg TNT equivalent. And that's not enough to heat up that much water very much. So I expect that any apparent bubbling was nothing more than an effect of ground water filling in the new hole. If the recovered material is shocked fragments, it may be structurally quite different from the parent body. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carnacas smoke-trail photos On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Is it indeed possible that a mass of say 3-7 tons could cause such intense heat on impact? We think that the compression of the soil, in an instant to many meteors deep could also cause intense heating. Every person we interviewed decribed boiling water, lots of steam, and horrible sulfer type smell. The What I wonder is if maybe the pressure/heat could have caused dissolved gases to bubble out from the water? So it might not have been at a boiling temperature, but still bubbling/steaming? Too bad we don't have samples of the groundwater and soil from the area to see if there is anything weird/extensively poluted about it. Also odd, of course, is a fraglie, porus stone as you describe surviving to the ground big enough and fast enough to make the crater. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map resources
Having received some request for more online map information, here are some tips for locating free on line maps.(Primarily USA). The good news is that there is a federal program to publish digital products online that will provide complete national coverage. The bad news is that it is a federal program... subject to manpower and funding constraints but it is a very good start. The Internet is a source for many maps of other countries. I have viewed geological maps of Oman and even the Moon and Mars online. Geological and Geophysical Maps: Finding The Map you need: Traditionally, one went to a state bookstore to purchased a paper map hoping it was still in print. The trend today is to publish them online with free access. Tennessee will no longer be printing maps in advance. Maps that arent online can be purchased for $20 a map, printed straight from a digital file. The quick and easy solution for links to state geological maps is About.com http://geology.about.com/ AND/OR http://geology.about.com/library/bl/blcontent_a-z.htm?terms=about+geology About.com pre-searches and assembles all types of classes of information. If you go to their Geology or Maps sections and poke around there are pages for State Geological Maps AND State Geological Organizations. (There is also geology.com with similar sources.) They also list state authorities and link to their websites. Once in those you may frequently find a free downloadable map for the local area you are looking for. The USGS , as mentioned above has taken great steps to centralize the search for geological maps. State and regional authorities aren't uniformly named. In many states they are under DNR(Dept. of Nat'l. Resources) some are under State Mining authorities, some are simply quasi-public such as Geological Society(e.g. Alabama). About.com lists them all. You can also Google for maps but it can be trial and error to structure your inquiry given the lack of standardization. The US Geological Survey has a master database of maps both online and paper at this portal: http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ --unfortunately it has a convoluted search system, having recently merged other catalogs. Of note: Kentucky is one of the only states that has placed it's entire geological map quads set online. Back Doors: Owing to forward thinking, many states and federal agencies have designated certain public and university libraries as repositories for map products even for far away places. Some of those libraries have scanned paper maps into their online collections even where states have not. These are usually in Adobe Acrobat Format as they werent generated digitally. Some maps generated for say an environmental project or mining district will include bedrock geological information. I searched for years for any copy of an out of print Pennsylvania map only to find it in online in a California University system. So if you dont find it initially get creative in your searches. What Maps there maybe: Quads (short for Quadrangles: the basic map sheet format) are indexed, usually on a state map which graphically shows the name and position of all the quad map sheets in that state. Some indexes will just show the name of the map sheet. In that case you can always fall back on the Federal Index of Topo (topological) maps to locate the name of the sheet you are looking for. Geological quads follow the name of the topo quads, which in turn are named after a town, community, or feature fond on that sheet. The sheet will be named at the top and have the names of the eight adjacent sheets around the edges. Quads come in different scales aka sizes-- the basic size is called the 7.5 minute Quad because it spans 7.5 minutes of latitude and 7.5 minutes of longitude(high latitudes of course cover more than 7.5 minutes owing to convergence of longitude towards the poles). I wont cover map reading here because there are several online lessons on how to read topological and geological maps. In the interest of brevity I suggest one google How to read a topo/geological/map etc. Quads also come in larger formats which may include several portions of states. For example the Knoxville, TN Quad covers parts of 10 states. This brings up regional/ special geological maps(e.g. The Grand Canyon, New Madrid Seismic Zone, etc.) These may cover parts of several quads. Geological quads may be published in bedrock or surfacial versions in glaciated areas where one needs to distinguish between ancient and tertiary-aged deposits. Printed quads falling along political boundaries are occasionally truncated to the parts within the state publishing the map, however, the digital quads usually will include the full map data from adjacent parts which overlap state lines. Sometimes you can get geological data by reverse searching adjacent state quad indexes to find published data when the home state hasn't published their maps online. Digital maps follow formats which are derived from
Re: [meteorite-list] Slickensides vs. Shock Veins correction Ringwoodite
I am so sorry Mia Culpa! I was covering writing several articles tonight and had a computer glitch along with a brain freeze. I lost something in the process. What I should have said was: Ringwoodite a mineral and is the spinel polymorph of olivine. Maskelynite is not a mineral but a glass derived from feldspars that have been shock melted. Smectite also not a mineral, is a broad term covering the mostly clay substance (e.g feldspar weathering products)in terrestrial slickensides. I suspect that the material in slickensides from meteorites will also fall under the classification smectite. Thanks for paying attention! Elton --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Elton, you are right with the slickensides. But some comments on Maskelynite: It is NOT from olivine ! it is a glassy mineral which has a composition of plagioclase feldspar. It results from quenching from shock induced melt ! ref: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc99/pdf/5047.pdf Harald __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor Lights Up Sky in Melbourne, Australia
This has been a little lost with everything else that is going on but this event was probably the largest in Australia in the past several years. Bigger than the Western Australia event a year or two ago. In fact this was seen upto around 400-500km away from Melbourne in a number of directions. From the reports I've heard though it would be somewhere south of Melbourne meaning any material may have landed in the sea. That said though, the Cranbourne iron was found in that same area south of Melbourne. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke To: Meteorite Mailing List Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteor Lights Up Sky in Melbourne, Australia http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/03/2049439.htm Meteor lights up Melbourne sky By Jan Deane Australian Broadcasting Corporation October 2, 2007 The Astronomical Society of Victoria says a meteor was the source of an array of coloured lights seen in skies across the state last night. The vice president, Perry Vlahos says the meteor was first spotted in north eastern Victoria just before 10:00pm, and it was also seen in some areas of South Australia. Callers to the ABC reported seeing the lights in several locations, including Leongatha in Gippsland and in the Melbourne suburb of Doncaster. He says while meteors often enter the Earth's atmosphere, this one put on a brilliant display. In some reports it appears to have lit up the ground and cast strong shadows so that's a fairly impressive sight, he said. Some other reports have indicated that it may have had a green tinge to its colour which betrays the presence of some copper in its makeup, Mr Vlahos said. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
As to the mention of dense atmosphere, doesn't 90% of the mass of the atmosphere lie below 2.5 miles above sea level/asl? I surmise that the shear(no pun) height of the ground there with the combination of a large meteoroid mass may have allowed for more retention of cosmic velocity then expected. The meteorite had the happenstance of hitting the ground before the atmosphere had the opportunity to deliver its main blow. Five miles was the traditional estimate of the lower limit where ablative flight was possible. I know of a case where a bolide apparently was incandescent at nearly 3 miles asl. If the event in Peru was at 2.6 miles asl and while, ablation all the way to the ground may seem unlikely--For only another half mile± of flight, this sucker may have still been smoking when it landed! Inquiring minds ya know. Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Ebay Auctions ending
Good Morning All I have auctions ending tonight, ebay ID catchafallingstar.com. ALL started just at 99 Cents!!! http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcatchafallingstar.com Full recap with photos on Paul and Jim's website: http://www.meteorite.com/meteorites/ebay/catch_a_falling_star_meteorites.htm We still have some Campo del Cielo and NWA 869 coins available at: http://www.meteoritecoins.com/ Thanks for looking Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV 26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - October 4, 2007
http://www.spacerocksinc.com/October_4_2007.html ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map resources
Mr EMan wrote: Having received some request for more online map information, here are some tips for locating free on line maps.(Primarily USA). There are some web pages, which provide links for where free GIS data, including scans of topographic and other maps, called DRGs for various states. They include: 1. Maps and GIS Resources: United States, by State, compiled by the University of Oregon Libraries. http://libweb.uoregon.edu/map/map_section/map_Statedatasets.html 2. Libre Map Project - The purpose of the Libre Map Project is to aggregate and make digital maps and related GIS data available for Free. The URLs are: http://libremap.org/ and http://libremap.org/data/ 3. Websites for Digital GIS Data - Stanford University http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/gis/web.html URLs for International GIS Data: http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/gis/bookmark.htm 4. FINDING UNITED STATES DEMs - “Digital Elevation Models for the United States can be downloaded at no cost from several locations on the Internet.” http://www.visualizationsoftware.com/3dem/finddems.html 5. Guide to Mostly On-Line and Mostly Free U.S. Geospatial and Attribute Data - University of Arkansas Compilation. http://libinfo.uark.edu/gis/us.asp One way of finding digital map data is to search using your favorite search engine and a combination of the key words GIS, DRG, and the name of the state, for which a person is looking for data. Most states now have GIS archives, which contain DRGs of topographic maps and other digital data. In terms of geologic maps, a person can go to the National Geologic Map Database at: http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ngmdb/ngm_quicksearch.html It contains DRGs and other digital copies of various geologic maps for parts of the United States. Digital geologic maps accompany the United States Geological Survey (USGS) publications, which can be downloaded free from the USGS Publications Warehouse at; http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/index.jsp?view=adv and http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/index.jsp For example, a geological map of a geologic dome, which was initially mistaken for an impact crater, can be found in “The geology and mechanics of formation of the Fort Rock Dome, Yavapai County, Arizona, Professional Paper no. 1266, at: http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp1266 Yours, Paul H. Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 04:15:35 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites? Sputnik became a meteor in the end... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Exactly 50 light-years! What do I win? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
Ok Matteo, whatever, I think I will explain my situation thank you, there were more than 100 emails since I posted from Bolivia, most of them saying incorrect things about us. It is not only myself involved, Moritz and Robert were also accused. Not neccesary for you to report every time you post a new meteorite on your collection pag, but you tell us, and we all say nothing, so if you dont like me or what is happening to me, ignore it. Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we have understand you have received this this and this emails, is not necessary repeat every time all... Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Please explain what that means Matteo. Do you find this funny? Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: again? Two balls Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:33:03 -0700 (PDT) So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the submission to the Meteoritical Society? Dr. Richard Daniels __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com === message truncated === __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Bassikounou
Hello Floyd, Dean, List, Floyd Griff Griffith's Bassikounou - 252.8 grams is today's RFS and a beautiful stone it is. Congratulations! You just gotta love this stark contrast between the jet-black, pristine fusion crust and the light- to medium-gray equally pristine interior of this fresh chondrite! There is an absolutely fresh slice from Hanno Strufe in my collection. It was one of the first to come out of Africa and its fusion crust is so very fresh that you can spot unoxidized, silvery FeNi specks snugly nestled into the fusion crust. I recently added a broken individual that I purchased from Dean. Thank you, Dean. It arrived today and it almost defies description. Here it is: http://www.meteoriteshop.com/metsale/Bassikounou.html It's #24 and Dean describes it like that: Bassikounou-39.3 Grams. One of the best examples on any meteorite of primary and secondary crust. And when he added in his private mail: I can assure you that this is one that you will really love. Nicer than my photo and when you see it you really can see where it broke apart and then new crust started forming. And the broken area is loaded with the greyest area ... ..well, I thought that he was probably exaggerating a little. I was dead wrong! The picture does *not* do it justice! Not only does it have a pitch-black primary fusion crust but also three(!) kinds of secondary crust that reflect different stages in the meteorite's descent and breakup: 1. one side shows a thick, black, dull coating of secondary crust totally covering the broken ripple-like surface beneath; 2. The downside displays a slightly thinner secondary fusion crust and looks like the warty, rear side of a flight-oriented meteorite. It is not oriented...I'm only trying to describe what it looks like. 3. The freshest secondary fusion crust can be seen where a piece must have broken off very late in its descent through the atmos- phere (lower left side in Dean's picture). Here I can see fusion crust in its incipient stage: small, feathery, black patches that look almost like fresh dentrites. Dean, thank you so much for this one! Best wishes and off to a PTA meeting! Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
everytime ridiculus...if I well remember I have put a messagge of collection update at 2-3 months agoor I have to ask the permito to you for put similar messagges? Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Ok Matteo, whatever, I think I will explain my situation thank you, there were more than 100 emails since I posted from Bolivia, most of them saying incorrect things about us. It is not only myself involved, Moritz and Robert were also accused. Not neccesary for you to report every time you post a new meteorite on your collection pag, but you tell us, and we all say nothing, so if you dont like me or what is happening to me, ignore it. Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we have understand you have received this this and this emails, is not necessary repeat every time all... Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Please explain what that means Matteo. Do you find this funny? Michael Farmer --- M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: again? Two balls Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:33:03 -0700 (PDT) So what is your name? You insult me and my wife, make fun of the fact that my wife has lost children, try to have me arrested, buy meteorites from the cops, try to sell them on this list, not you try to make it all better by telling racist jokes? Dude, you are one messed up piece of human filth. These emails have all been forwarded to the US Embassy in Peru, who are doing an investigation on this incident and the crimes of the police who along with yourself, colluded to steal money from me and arrest me in Peru. Have a nice day, perhaps you yourself should flee the country while you still have a chance. Michael Farmer --- Dr. Richard Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Fowler, This may be my last post as Dr. Richard (Jack) Daniels. a.k.a Dr. Dick. I'll make a test. If it goes through, then I switch over, permanently. Apparently you have lost your sense of humor. It is a common Peruvian joke. The Bolivians think it's funny also. I make no apologies. There's another one that I tell all the time. When asked if I married, I tell them yes, but my wife is not Peruvian, she's Arequipeña. Arequipeans like to think of themselves as an independent country in Peru. The exact joke is: Tu Cansada? Si Tu Esposa Peruana? No Que Pais? Arequipa Republic Independente! and the burst out laughing. If I were you, I would start looking for your sense of humor. It's probably hiding under your bed. Or maybe you accidently flushed it down the toilet. Randall On 10/3/07, Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is high time for Randall Gregory to sign his own emails and stop using a phony name, with a phony Dr. attached! I also think that if he is so sensitive to the feelings of the local people as he claims, he should never have repeated that joke about caca for the Bolivians Bolivians are people too, and that remark is very offensive! Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago Additonally, naming it Lake Titicaca allows Bolivia to share. It is right on the boarder (political). There is a saying in Peru about the lake. Peru has the titty and Boliva has the caca. :) A meteorite couldn't have hit in a more beautiful place. I propose Lake Titicaca meteorite. I also propose that the met-list votes on this. Then, would anyone like to support start the
Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name
In the name of sanity, can you please take this off-list? Mark M come Meteorite Meteorites wrote: everytime ridiculus...if I well remember I have put a messagge of collection update at 2-3 months agoor I have to ask the permito to you for put similar messagges? Matteo - Original Message - Da : Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Dr Daniels - proposal for new name Data : Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Ok Matteo, whatever, I think I will explain my __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hi Larry Damn that is a long way away. Hard to fathom how far away 50 light years is though. I wonder what the chances are of the signal directly hitting anyone of those 800 star/star systems. It is neat to think that the signal is so far away but unfortunately the signal would be unrecognizable to any alien cultures. It would just be too spread out (think of a radio station at a great distance) for anyone to pick it up. -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Dr. Richard Daniels is a pseudonym for RandallGregory
Is this the Pete Pete that came to this list pretending to be two different people using two different email addresses? You know the one defending the name of him which shall not be said here( Hint :Gao)? The one who tipped his hand when he replied to a personal email to his pretend address using his other address address denying ownership of the pretend address? Is it Him? Them? No problem either way, I was just wanting to sort out the hypocrites from the instigators, the crooks and, just plain regular lynch mob participants. I don't have the playbill of characters so I have to ask. Maybe it was another Pete Pete; there are so many names floating around perhaps we need a list Directory. I half way expected Matteo to jump in on this multiple name thing. As to attacking name de Plumes and pseudonyms Who exactly is Pete Pete RSVP? Was it someone famous said Ye who are without sin cast the first stone? or as it People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? All this stoning stuff more complicated then all this name stuff. Or People without meteorites shouldn't live in glass houses near a crater? Wait who said This leads me to believe that you are of low ethics, and have no respect for other members of the List? Really sorry Mr. Pete if Pete is really your last name, it would be a first for me. nuknuknuk. Thanks for helping me illustrate the point that there are a lot of folks here that might look like they are trying to keep secrets but have perfectly plausible reasons for trying to keep secrets. Elton aka Eman OOps I guess I am a hypocrite, too. --- Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Dr. Richard Daniels is a pseudonym for RandallGregory, my way of not asking peo Dear Randall, snip... I have to say that your posing as Dr Richard Daniels, and in at least one post you made as him you had the audacity to refer to Randall Gregory (yourself!) in a positive light! This leads me to believe that you are of low ethics, and have no respect for other members of the List. Another List member asked you for specific details of your Doctor title. Will you answer him? Until you do, I will have to consider you as a fraud without any credibility. Sincerely, Pete __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas
Hi Robert, all - At least the newspaper got it right - 5 meteorite traficantes - Farmer had 3 in his party, so you were in the company of someone else. And yes, la mordida is a bane, of which you have mastery. There is one thing that can be said for Farmer, at least he openly reported his bribes - you haven't. Others here have pointed out that you ripped off the locals by preying on their ignorance of the market and offering them low prices. In Canada, this kind of thing would not happen because of the laws there. On the other hand, a lot of Moss Lake was lost. The question here is did you enter into a contract with the land owner, and if so when? Did the land owner allow others to collect on his land? The money from the sales of the pieces that the police seized from the finders must either be given to them or to the land owners. But there is a fat chance of that happening. So how about a list of who bought what from whom when you go to catalog? Say Oficer Jose or Mayor Jorge? Robert, you're being just plain nasty here. Please stop insulting Farmer, and please stop using a false name and false title. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas
I had three people in my party, so how they reported 5 Americans is beyond me. It shows the lack in information that they use in Peru to print the news. I have been on the phone for hours with the press in Peru, and the embassy, and I have a funny feeling that this will get much nastier now, that I have denounced the police and Randall and forwarded his emails to the press in Peru! This should be fun, especially the report of Randall that he bought a 4 kilo stone from the chief of police, the same one who came to arrest me for trafficking meteorites. I guess his own sales were ok, but not my purchases from him:) I think the police in that town are about to be in a little trouble, as the Peruvian press is loving to hear my side of the story, with emails to prove it! I speak fluent Spanish, I guess Randall did not know this. Too bad for him. Michael Farmer By the way, I did not pay bribes, I paid EXTORTION money, and I assure you that if you were in our shoes, you would pay when extorted, of course I played dumb and paid them little, and got out of there. --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Robert, all - At least the newspaper got it right - 5 meteorite traficantes - Farmer had 3 in his party, so you were in the company of someone else. And yes, la mordida is a bane, of which you have mastery. There is one thing that can be said for Farmer, at least he openly reported his bribes - you haven't. Others here have pointed out that you ripped off the locals by preying on their ignorance of the market and offering them low prices. In Canada, this kind of thing would not happen because of the laws there. On the other hand, a lot of Moss Lake was lost. The question here is did you enter into a contract with the land owner, and if so when? Did the land owner allow others to collect on his land? The money from the sales of the pieces that the police seized from the finders must either be given to them or to the land owners. But there is a fat chance of that happening. So how about a list of who bought what from whom when you go to catalog? Say Oficer Jose or Mayor Jorge? Robert, you're being just plain nasty here. Please stop insulting Farmer, and please stop using a false name and false title. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Nakhla Dog Meteorites warmly remembers all dogs in space, dogs that became meteors, and dogs hit by them. Rob Wesel http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 The True Story of Laika the Dog By Anatoly Zak Staff Writer posted: 03:12 pm ET 03 November 1999 On November 3, 1957, the U.S.S.R. stunned the world with a space sensation -- the launch of Sputnik 2 with a live dog on-board. But many details of what happened to the mission have only recently been revealed. The Space Age had started less than a month before, with the launch of the first Soviet satellite on October 4, 1957. Sputnik 1, a 40-pound sphere, carried a simple transmitter and was considered very heavy compared to the U.S. spacecraft under development at the time. Enter Sputnik 2. The Soviet press boasted about the 250-pound object equipped with a cabin, providing all the necessary life support for a dog named Laika. Well, almost. The Soviets admitted soon after the launch that the spacecraft would not return, meaning that the animal was doomed from the start. Years after Sputnik 2 burned up in the atmosphere, conflicting scenarios of Laika's death were circulating in the West. Recently, several Russian sources revealed that Laika survived in orbit for four days and then died when the cabin overheated. The design of the cabin was derived from the nose sections of experimental ballistic missiles that carried dogs into the upper atmosphere in short and relatively slow-speed flights, ending in a parachute landing. With Sputnik 2, the Cold War politics left no time for designers to develop a life-support system for a long-duration flight, not to mention to protect a spacecraft for a fiery reentry. Laika's story started soon after the Sputnik 1 triumph, when Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet leader at the time, hosted a big reception for leading rocket designers. Among those present was Sergei Korolev, the founder of the Soviet space program. At the reception, Khrushchev made the suggestion that another Sputnik be launched to mark the 40th Anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution celebrated on November 7. At the time, Korolev had a sophisticated research satellite in the works. However, it could not possibly be ready for takeoff before December 1957. That satellite would later become Sputnik 3. To meet the November anniversary deadline, an entirely new design for Sputnik 2 emerged. According to various Russian sources, the official decision to launch Sputnik 2 before November 7 was made on October 10 or 12, 1957. In any case, Korolev's team had less than four weeks to design and build the spacecraft. All traditions developed in rocket technology were thrown out (during work on the second satellite), wrote Boris Chertok, deputy to Sergei Korolev. The second satellite was created without preliminary design, or any kind of design. According to Chertok's memoirs, most elements of the spacecraft were manufactured from sketches, while engineers moved into production facilities to assist workers on site. The common belief is that Sputnik 2 failed to separate from its booster. In reality, the satellite was designed to remain attached to the upper stage of its launcher, so that the rocket's own telemetry system could be used to transmit data from the spacecraft. The scientists did their best to benefit from this opportunity created by Cold War politics. Laika's cabin was equipped with a television camera, along with sensors to measure ambient pressure and temperature, as well as the canine passenger's blood pressure, breath frequency and heartbeat. These instruments allowed ground controllers to monitor how Laika functioned and died in space. Above the dog's cabin, the engineers mounted a spherical container that was developed for Sputnik 1. It held a radio transmitter and an instrument to register ultraviolet and x-ray radiation. After a successful launch, Sputnik 2 exhausted its electrical batteries after six days in orbit. With all systems dead, the spacecraft continued circling the Earth until April 14, 1958, when it reentered the atmosphere after 2,570 orbits. The Sputnik 2 flight exemplified how science was propelled by Cold War politics -- a trend that would become more pronounced on both sides of the Atlantic in later years. Although advertised as another example of the superiority of the Soviet system, Laika's mission also brought a few unintended results. In the West, Sputnik 2 renewed the debate over the treatment of animals, while in the U.S.S.R., the flight was widely ridiculed by ordinary citizens as propaganda. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas
Mike, By the way... welcome back and I am happy to see that all (3) of you made it back safe and sound. I am very happy to hear that you are alright and at home. I don't think people really know how iffy and dangerous meteorite hunting really can be and what situations are likely to arise while in the field, especially in areas where you might have corrupted officials lurking about. I applaud your extra efforts in bringing justice to that area and maybe the villagers will actually be better off in that area, after those corrupt police and officials are exposed. Tourism is big bucks in Peru these days, and especially American Dollars, so it really is in the best interest of a lot of economic reasons that these police officials, and others are given what they deserve. Maybe a lot of folks will be better off after all of this... Best Wishes Michael Cottingham -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Farmer Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:15 PM To: E.P. Grondine; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas I had three people in my party, so how they reported 5 Americans is beyond me. It shows the lack in information that they use in Peru to print the news. I have been on the phone for hours with the press in Peru, and the embassy, and I have a funny feeling that this will get much nastier now, that I have denounced the police and Randall and forwarded his emails to the press in Peru! This should be fun, especially the report of Randall that he bought a 4 kilo stone from the chief of police, the same one who came to arrest me for trafficking meteorites. I guess his own sales were ok, but not my purchases from him:) I think the police in that town are about to be in a little trouble, as the Peruvian press is loving to hear my side of the story, with emails to prove it! I speak fluent Spanish, I guess Randall did not know this. Too bad for him. Michael Farmer By the way, I did not pay bribes, I paid EXTORTION money, and I assure you that if you were in our shoes, you would pay when extorted, of course I played dumb and paid them little, and got out of there. --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Robert, all - At least the newspaper got it right - 5 meteorite traficantes - Farmer had 3 in his party, so you were in the company of someone else. And yes, la mordida is a bane, of which you have mastery. There is one thing that can be said for Farmer, at least he openly reported his bribes - you haven't. Others here have pointed out that you ripped off the locals by preying on their ignorance of the market and offering them low prices. In Canada, this kind of thing would not happen because of the laws there. On the other hand, a lot of Moss Lake was lost. The question here is did you enter into a contract with the land owner, and if so when? Did the land owner allow others to collect on his land? The money from the sales of the pieces that the police seized from the finders must either be given to them or to the land owners. But there is a fat chance of that happening. So how about a list of who bought what from whom when you go to catalog? Say Oficer Jose or Mayor Jorge? Robert, you're being just plain nasty here. Please stop insulting Farmer, and please stop using a false name and false title. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Mike Farmer-Moritz-Robert---Welcome Home!
Welcome to your homes and it sure is good to hear from Mike about their adventure.I am glad you were able to acquire some of the meteorite for your collections and probably for science.Your description really puts a human perspective to meteorite hunting and retreival of specimens.YOU GUYS ARE TOUGH and i personally knew that you would weather anything the police and jealous adversaries could throw at you. Good luck and thanks for your reports to the list. Best Regards;Herman Archer. IMCA#2770 ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Presenting my 50mm Uruacu Sphere
Hello and good day David, Wow, nice looking sphere. I really like the etch from Uruacu. Would you please send me a link to your web site. I would like to see the other additions to your collection. Best to you, Griff Parker, Colorado - Original Message - From: David Kitt Deyarmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:52 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Presenting my 50mm Uruacu Sphere This week I added 3 new spheres to my collection and I plan to do a huge web site update Friday. But I had to show this beauty off now. One failed attempt and a lot of work went into this sphere and the whole process was quite stressful but the end result made it all worth while. It's 50mm in diameter and weighs 533 grams http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/SPUruacu.jpg The etch doesn't have a lot of contrast but if it's like my Campo it should darken with age. However, this material is all about the inclusions and this sphere is loaded with them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hi, The Sputnik signal was very weak, powered as it was by fading batteries, and of short duration. But the true picture is that it was orbiting a rock sphere that was ablaze in the radio spectrum, that was already a powerful interstellar radio anomaly. For the last 100 years, a strange astrophysical phenomenon happened in our otherwise normal solar system. A strange dark body, very small, in orbit around this ordinary unremarkable star, suddenly brightened in the radio spectrum until, within decades, it outshone its star in emitted radio energy. If there are any radio astronomers within 100 light years, on planets of the 10,000+ stars within that radius, most (all) have discovered this inexplicable event. Using the high resolution possible with radio astronomy, they have observed that the invisible but ultrabright radio source shifts from side to side by many mega-glucks in a period of millions of ticks, and have rightly deduced that it is a planetary body that has gone incredibly radio bright. And over time, the growth of that brightness has been virtually exponential. That can mean only one thing. Critters. Us. If you wonder if the others know we're here, rest your mind. We are the neighbor with the 5700 watts of yard lights or the stereo playing heavy metal at 1200 watts with lots of bass boost... or both. We are Radio Raheem with the largest boombox in this neck of the Galaxy. Or, more like it, the 316,000 watt Christmas yard display going all year long because it just too pretty to turn off. Every time we shift some tranmissions to newer, non-emissive modes (fiber optics, satellites), we fill the void with new types of transmissions. Cell phones! We stay bright, and we continue to brighten. Think what it will be like when we have spread across the solar system and have every kind of interplanetary radiowave networks, a million meteor detection pulsed radars, and a 100 billion cellphones. We will be the brightest radio source in many thousand light years. Sadly, it also means that if they were anybody even remotely like us within 100 light years, they would look exactly the same to us. And there isn't any such radio source --- noisy, multi-banded, bright --- anywhere. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50 Hi Larry Damn that is a long way away. Hard to fathom how far away 50 light years is though. I wonder what the chances are of the signal directly hitting anyone of those 800 star/star systems. It is neat to think that the signal is so far away but unfortunately the signal would be unrecognizable to any alien cultures. It would just be too spread out (think of a radio station at a great distance) for anyone to pick it up. -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
I never thought of that elton, but indeed, at that atitude, it was hard to breath, I had altitude sickness much of the time, there, shortness of breath, headaches and loss of apetite. At that altitude, the air is very thin. I am sure that helped the meteorite retain some speed, not to mention the fact that it must weigh some tons. mike --- Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As to the mention of dense atmosphere, doesn't 90% of the mass of the atmosphere lie below 2.5 miles above sea level/asl? I surmise that the shear(no pun) height of the ground there with the combination of a large meteoroid mass may have allowed for more retention of cosmic velocity then expected. The meteorite had the happenstance of hitting the ground before the atmosphere had the opportunity to deliver its main blow. Five miles was the traditional estimate of the lower limit where ablative flight was possible. I know of a case where a bolide apparently was incandescent at nearly 3 miles asl. If the event in Peru was at 2.6 miles asl and while, ablation all the way to the ground may seem unlikely--For only another half mile± of flight, this sucker may have still been smoking when it landed! Inquiring minds ya know. Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Hello Sterling: You need to take the ionosphere into account. If memory serves me, AM radio does not get through, while FM does. TV gets through, too. Hence the images of Hitler at the opening of the Olympics being picked up and re-transmitted in Contact. Or I Love Lucy in an episode of Amazing Stories. But, yes, your are right, we are filling space with noise. Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 12:11 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, The Sputnik signal was very weak, powered as it was by fading batteries, and of short duration. But the true picture is that it was orbiting a rock sphere that was ablaze in the radio spectrum, that was already a powerful interstellar radio anomaly. For the last 100 years, a strange astrophysical phenomenon happened in our otherwise normal solar system. A strange dark body, very small, in orbit around this ordinary unremarkable star, suddenly brightened in the radio spectrum until, within decades, it outshone its star in emitted radio energy. If there are any radio astronomers within 100 light years, on planets of the 10,000+ stars within that radius, most (all) have discovered this inexplicable event. Using the high resolution possible with radio astronomy, they have observed that the invisible but ultrabright radio source shifts from side to side by many mega-glucks in a period of millions of ticks, and have rightly deduced that it is a planetary body that has gone incredibly radio bright. And over time, the growth of that brightness has been virtually exponential. That can mean only one thing. Critters. Us. If you wonder if the others know we're here, rest your mind. We are the neighbor with the 5700 watts of yard lights or the stereo playing heavy metal at 1200 watts with lots of bass boost... or both. We are Radio Raheem with the largest boombox in this neck of the Galaxy. Or, more like it, the 316,000 watt Christmas yard display going all year long because it just too pretty to turn off. Every time we shift some tranmissions to newer, non-emissive modes (fiber optics, satellites), we fill the void with new types of transmissions. Cell phones! We stay bright, and we continue to brighten. Think what it will be like when we have spread across the solar system and have every kind of interplanetary radiowave networks, a million meteor detection pulsed radars, and a 100 billion cellphones. We will be the brightest radio source in many thousand light years. Sadly, it also means that if they were anybody even remotely like us within 100 light years, they would look exactly the same to us. And there isn't any such radio source --- noisy, multi-banded, bright --- anywhere. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50 Hi Larry Damn that is a long way away. Hard to fathom how far away 50 light years is though. I wonder what the chances are of the signal directly hitting anyone of those 800 star/star systems. It is neat to think that the signal is so far away but unfortunately the signal would be unrecognizable to any alien cultures. It would just be too spread out (think of a radio station at a great distance) for anyone to pick it up. -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk: 1 light year = 9.46 X 10^15 meters or 9.46 x 10^12 km. So, in 50 years: 4.7 x 10^14 km (470 trillion kilimeters). That is within range of a lot of stars. There are a 100 stars within 7.63 parsecs (almost 25 light years), so if you double the distance, there are about 800 stars (star systems) that have heard from Sputnik! Larry On Thu, October 4, 2007 4:15 am, drtanuki wrote: Hi List, Sputnik is now 50! Time flys. What does this have to do with meteorites?...much more than you might first think!...it totally changed our history and this One Step for Mankind will continue to lead to our future (survival/destruction) as well. Congrats to the dedicated Russians/Germans/Amerikans/Humans that worked dearly, for this feat regardless of the negatives it ushered in with all of the positives. Their personal sacrifice should be remembered. Anyone want to tune in their radio? bleep..bleep... BTW how far into space has Sputnik`s message now traveled after 50years??? Sterling...anyone??? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:33:12 -0700 (MST), you wrote: Hence the images of Hitler at the opening of the Olympics being picked up and re-transmitted in Contact. Or I Love Lucy in an episode of Amazing Stories. Or when the people of Omicron Persei 8 missed the series finale of Single Female Lawyer, and the deadly conciquences. http://stage6.divx.com/Futurama-dvd-quality/video/1694412/Futurama---S02E03---When-Aliens-Attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Aliens_Attack __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
As to the mention of dense atmosphere, doesn't 90% of the mass of the atmosphere lie below 2.5 miles above sea level? From my mountain climbing days, I remember that the rule of thumb was that 50% of the atmosphere was below 3.5 miles or 18,000 feet. The highest I made was the summit of Popocatepetl in Mexico, 17,800 feet above sea level. Mike Fowler Chicago __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Flaming ball spotted in Minn
This was on the local new yesterday . I will be out looking !! Ken Regelman Astronomical Research Network Flaming ball spotted in Minn., NW Iowa sky may have been meteor Wednesday, October 03, 2007 MINNEAPOLIS (AP) Residents from the Twin Cities to the southwestern corner of Minnesota and into Iowa reported seeing a flaming object shooting through the sky Wednesday, and experts said they may have been watching a meteor. Shortly after 2 p.m., people across the Twin Cities reported seeing a ``metallic'' object or ``flaming ball'' falling from the sky, according to broadcasters and emergency dispatchers who got hundreds of calls from people in Edina, Maple Grove and other suburbs. The callers said they saw the object traveling from the northeast to the southwest. Meanwhile, residents in Lyon County in far southwestern Minnesota reported hearing a loud boom Wednesday. ``Oh man. To me it was like being on a (Navy) carrier ... when they break the sound barrier with an F14,'' Navy reservist Greg Devereaux, who lives near Amiret, told the Marshall Independent. ``It sounded like a sonic boom from an F14 maybe 300 yards away. That's what it felt like. It shook the house and when I walked outside the ground was still shaking.'' Mike Fuhs, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Sioux Falls, S.D., said several residents reported sightings of fireballs in the sky in northwestern Iowa, especially near Sioux City. As of 3:15 p.m. Wednesday, the Federal Aviation Administration hadn't received reports of anything falling from airplanes in the area. That led to speculation that the object was a meteor that had burned up in the atmosphere. Ken Murphy, a physics professor at Southwest Minnesota State University in Marshall and director of the school's planetarium, said a chunk of a meteor called a bolide can make a noise that sounds like thunder. ``That's just a possibility of what this thing is,'' Murphy said. Murphy said his wife Sandy heard a thunder-type sound both Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon. Lyon County Sheriff Chief Deputy Mark Mather said deputies investigated near Amiret but found no evidence of an explosion __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Property Ownership in Peru/History's Highest Meteorite Fall
Hola a todos: I would like to comment on some of the aspects of the Peru meteorite. This will be message One of Two. First, I would like to share the following, transmitted to me and used by permission from Astronomer Gonzalo Pereira of the Planetario Max Schreirer in La Paz, Bolivia. Before the arrival of the Farmer team, he was likely the most qualified scientist to visit and investigate the site. Not all the land of Peru is private; it depends on where the presence of Aymara, Quechua and Uru Indians is strong. They live like pre-Columbian times organized in communities (comunidades). In the case of the crater region for example, the name of the community is Carancas and has five sectors: La Casilla, Patani, Siricaya, Irpa Siricalla and Huanocollo. In the last sector fell the meteorite. The authority of this community is Mr. Maximiliano Trujillo and every sector has is own authority or Teniente. All of these are now working to keep the crater. These authorities are elected by the members of the community, and are a local power parallel to the State of Peru (police, majors, etc). They decide how to transfer the land to the people, as the owners of this land are all the people of the community. The authorities decide which land corresponds to someone and whether this land is for agriculture or for the llamas. Nobody can sell this land because nobody is the particular owner. If some authority sells parts of the land, the community can condemn him to die (Communitarian Justice). Based on this, I wonder if or how these traditional property rights would apply to Dr. Randall Jack Daniels Gregory's written description of his handshake deal to purchase the land and subsequent claim of ownership of land adjacent to and/or including the crater. If Dr. Daniels-Gregory is not a citizen of Peru, I also wonder if a foreigner is even allowed by Peru or traditional law to own such land. Further, it is impossible to steal meteorites if those who control the land willfully sell them or allow their collection. The legitimacy of the agreed, final price of the specimen is irrelevant if there is a meeting of the minds. Personally, I don't find those who feel happily obliged to pay a Peruvian's year's wages for a rock specimen to be praise-worthy. This dislocates the local economy and now prevents local scientists there from affording any other recovered specimens. Local economies vary, and I feel no guilt paying my gardener $1.60/hr here in Costa Rica and not the $15/hour I would pay him were we in Florida. In the Florida economy I cannot afford this service and do my own gardening there since conversely, no one is willing to work in my garden for the wage they earned in Mexico. With due respect to Dr. Grossman and his comment about a Tibetan met, presently, Sevaruyo H5, found at 3,749m on June 11, 2001 by the team of Kevin Kichinka, Blaine Reed, Rubber Munoz and Martin Choquetuanca, Bolivia's first authenticated find, presently holds the only fully documented altitude record verified by GPS. I mention this because I am very proud to have put this group together that worked cheerfully as a team under difficult circumstances and succeeded in the mission. It would seem likely that the short list of possible names for this as yet unclassified meteorite will include Huanocollo or Carancas. More to follow. Kevin Kichinka __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer
http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4832-environmentnature-meteorite-crater-guarded-perus-police-after-u-s-citizens-attempt-traffick-it oh o.is good Farmer not return in Perù Matteo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer
Make sure you check out the link for the other meteorite story at the end of this article. Has a nice photo of Mike at the crater. Good job and welcome back, Mike! M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4832-environmentnature-meteorite-crater-guarded-perus-police-after-u-s-citizens-attempt-traffick-it oh o.is good Farmer not return in Perù Matteo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
Part Two of Two I am curious how dealers price self-recovered meteorites. Certainly, a rare species of low TWK with a story is max value. But there has been mention in the past by certain dealers that new specimens were being priced according to the money spent by that recoverer. Based on this marketing theory, and all things being equal, Randall's Lima, Peru close proximity to the fall site versus Mike Farmer's home locale of Tucson should indicate that Randall's specimens be priced far less than Mike's. I wonder now if we should consider that the distance traveled (or the sum of gifts donated to the local government) to recover a specimen has anything whatsoever to do with its value. If so, we should all hunt meteorites after arriving in-country on self-chartered private jets after gala nights spent at the casino of our Five Star Hotel, then arriving on site in limousines. I will be interested to see how these hunters price their rocks. And this last comment only represents my opinion and is not directed at anyone in particular. Hunting and dealing meteorites is not a heroic achievement as some seem to indicate in their messages to this board. Diving in the water to save a stranger's life is heroic. Falling on a hand grenade to save your buddies is heroic. Having the means to fly anywhere one wants on a whim is a personal blessing. Surveying the landscapes of countries-not-your-own is personal adventure. Making a plan and achieving your goal is what we all aspire to. Taking them time to share this excitement via the internet with others is noble and a good way to save your memories. But buying and selling meteorites is a business, its about the money. And that's terrific, I fully support capitalism. But let's not award any Purple Hearts for flying Coach. Much good has already come from this fall. Gonzalo tells me that for the first time ever, scientists from Peru and Bolivia are working together with a common goal. I suspect that their knowledge of meteorites will grow exponentially from the work related to this fall. And Gonzalo also relates that the Coleccion de Meteoritos Blaine Reed in La Paz is now being shown to standing-room only crowds (OK, there are no chairs in the museum) as this historic fall is well documented in local newspapers. Blaine's quiet gift of mid-five figure dollar value meteorites to the people of Bolivia, not even a tax write-off, is characteristic of the type of man he is. Next time your are in La Paz, Bolivia, be sure to visit the museum and among the Mars and Lunar specimens, take a look at the main mass of Sevaruyo H5, the meteorite we recovered there in 2001, as we have returned it back to the country of its origin. Observations from the coffee fields at Nine Degrees North. Kevin Kichinka __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hi, Mike, List, At Carancas the meteoroid only traveled though 58% of the Earth's atmospheric mass and density. Pressure is just the mass of the atmosphere that is above where you are. Picture a square inch cross-section column rising from the surface of the planet out to the vacuum of space. The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams. When you climb to where the pressure is halved, so is the mass of air above you and the mass of the air below you is the same as the amount above you. This happens at 5486 meters or 18,000 feet. At 8376 meters, or 27,480 feet, one-third of the atmosphere is above you and two-thirds below, and you are still not at the summit of Everest. But, oxygen partial pressure is down to less than 1 lb., and you are seriously short. (Pilots are recommended to go on Ox at 15,000 feet just to be sure they don't get whacky. Or is it required?) For all practical purposes, as a biological entity, you're in space at 23,000 feet, for this is the absolute limit of long-term survival without breathing aparatus, with 1.3 lbs of oxygen partial pressure. At 16,132 meters, or 52,926 feet, 90% of the air is below you and in another 10,000 feet, there's danger your blood will begin to boil lightly in the warmest parts of your body. At 30,901 meters, or 101,381 feet, 99% of the atmosphere is below you. If you're flying something with wings, they are totally useless. You'll notice pressure falls off quickly, exponentially actually, as a power of e or would if the atmosphere were the same temperature at all altitudes, but the cold upper atmosphere is heavier than the formula says... The formula is: Pressure at altitude A meters = Pressure at sea level X e ^ ( - ( A / 8500 ) ) (Sea level pressure is 14.7 lbs. per sq. in., or 1.2 kg. per sq. meter. 8500 meters is the scale height where pressure goes down to 1/e. And e goes on forever like pi. 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775 7247093699959574966967627724076630353547 5945713821785251664274274663919320030599 218174135966290435729003342952605956307... I just use 2.72, OK? You can use the formula to get a rough idea of the oxygen percentage at the top of any mountain of known height, instead of just flopping down unconscious when you get there. You can also use it to calculate the density of air at any altitude, since pressure and density are just two ways of counting the number of molecules in a cube of air. More than you ever wanted to know, right? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Mike Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:53 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru As to the mention of dense atmosphere, doesn't 90% of the mass of the atmosphere lie below 2.5 miles above sea level? From my mountain climbing days, I remember that the rule of thumb was that 50% of the atmosphere was below 3.5 miles or 18,000 feet. The highest I made was the summit of Popocatepetl in Mexico, 17,800 feet above sea level. Mike Fowler Chicago __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: Re: Apology - Reply from Randall
List members, here is a reply from Randall who admits he is not a Doctor. He wanted me to post it to the list, so read it and laugh some more at this pathetic person. People like this are very dangerous. Michael Farmer --- Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Apology - Reply from Randall To: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mr. Farmer (please post) My congressman (Sander M. Levin) is not pathetic the card is though. You posted my apology when it was only meant for your eyes. spank spank. Everyone knows that I couldn't post using Yahoo. I still wonder why your posts make it and mine don't. That was the reason and only reason I switched names. I offended professionals by using Doctor. I am nowhere near a doctor and my specialty is not in meteoritics, even though I am acutely interested as everyone knows. The Aplao meteorite fall in Arequipa was the event that started me down this path. Now, just as before, I have been scorned, ridiculed, and tag-teamed by every dealer on this list. It is now time to resign. Art, could you please remove any and all my subscriptions. Thank you. And to all the wonderful people that supported me, I won't forget and I am eternally grateful. Mike I would like the list to know what I am working on. Please post my recent private e-mail to the list so they can know what future events will unfold. Now that will be one hell of a show and everyone is invited. BTW, None of my stones have been sold and there is a high degree of probability that they never will. I'll wait for my check to arrive then go back to the Lake Titicaca meteorite crater. I will apologize to all the people involved. I hope they will still welcome me as a friend. These are my people through marriage and I'm very proud to be associated with them. Even though they are poor, they have beautiful hearts, minds, and especially souls. The police made a grave error selling to you. They started selling because scientists were offering to buy. They had never knew there were traffikers. Remember, the police were first on the scene and they collected the stones to protect the people who were getting sick. I was just made aware that there are nucleur-powered satellites. Should this fall have been a satellite instead of a meteorite, these police would be dead by now. All of them. And all of them got sick from exposure just like the inhabitants in the imediate vicinity. My wife and I got mildly sick when we started pouring grains that Justina had collected with a car speaker magnet. Remember her? Justina and I spent a few hours sitting an chewing coca leaves. Took care of my altitude sickness with absolutely no side effects. She's a wonderful woman, and when I return to the crater, I chew some more leaves with her. Kinda like smokin a peace pipe. Heh? Randall (no other name) Gregory Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so let me get this strait, you use different names, you threaten me, you insult me, you then apologize, tehn you threaten me again with some pathetic congressman's business card? Have a nice day, your emails with admissions of buying pieces, and trying to sell them have been forwarded to the Peruvian news agencies, you will be in a little trouble yourself soon. Enjoy, you poked me in the eye, now deal with the blowback! Michael, the only name I use. --- Randall Gregory wrote: You can do with this what you like. Post or not. But this is from me Mike, the real me. I deeply apologize to you for the terrible things I said both now and in the past. These were made in a state of anger and frustration and written without thought. Pure reactions. I apologize for the things I said about the Aplao meteorite fall and the consequences of tresspassing. I apologize for making physical references. I apologize for making educational references. You certainly have earned a degree in the field of meteorite studies. I think everyone on the list will agree. I apologize for the threats I made to you, but believe me I would have never carried them out. And finally, and this one really bothered me and I chastised myself over and over with this. I sent it in haste without thought. I wanted to hurt, just like you did. Was reference to the fact that you don't have any children. That was terrible and stupid. I expect to be punished for that one and I know I deserve it. Please let me change that now. You are welcome to Peru anytime you want. If you want to hunt for meteorites at the Lake Titicaca site and be an integral part of this amazing event I will give you all the help I can. I know Peru was quite a shock to you. The first time I came here, I had a night of non-stop nightmares. It can be a scary place at
Re: [meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer
Hello, This is the wrong kind of press for the positive promotion of meteorite collecting. Is it just me or is this long repetitious string becoming boring? I have callouses on my index finger from deleteing. Collectors should be pleased that there is a new fall but as is the norm, jealousys, greed and bickering soon follow. And to think, falls are worth more than finds? Adam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New Peru article
Finaly the press presents my side and some facts! http://www.livinginperu.com/news/4840 We will see what happens to Mr Randall now, perhaps the Peruvian government will come get their stolen piece back from him since he thinks that he is the only person who can buy meteorites in Peru. Mike __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:34:55 -0600, you wrote: Peru close proximity to the fall site versus Mike Farmer's home locale of Tucson should indicate that Randall's specimens be priced far less than Mike's. Yes, it should. Hunting and dealing meteorites is not a heroic achievement as some seem to indicate in their messages to this board. Diving in the water to save a stranger's life is heroic. Falling on a hand grenade to save your buddies is heroic. A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. (Please point out who said Mike was a hero, because I missed it). __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50
Thanks Rob, a very interesting update. I had recently been discharges from the Navy. The memories are very fresh nevertheless. The media was all over our hapless efforts to catchup. Live TV debacles were aired much to the chragrine of our government as one after another launch exploded or fissled on the pad. The dog was the last straw and new energy and money and alternatives finally got us off the ground. As a long time dog person, I regreted the loss of the poor mutt as did so many at the time. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Rob Wesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Happy Birthday Sputnik...50 Nakhla Dog Meteorites warmly remembers all dogs in space, dogs that became meteors, and dogs hit by them. Rob Wesel http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 The True Story of Laika the Dog By Anatoly Zak Staff Writer posted: 03:12 pm ET 03 November 1999 On November 3, 1957, the U.S.S.R. stunned the world with a space sensation -- the launch of Sputnik 2 with a live dog on-board. But many details of what happened to the mission have only recently been revealed. The Space Age had started less than a month before, with the launch of the first Soviet satellite on October 4, 1957. Sputnik 1, a 40-pound sphere, carried a simple transmitter and was considered very heavy compared to the U.S. spacecraft under development at the time. Enter Sputnik 2. The Soviet press boasted about the 250-pound object equipped with a cabin, providing all the necessary life support for a dog named Laika. Well, almost. The Soviets admitted soon after the launch that the spacecraft would not return, meaning that the animal was doomed from the start. Years after Sputnik 2 burned up in the atmosphere, conflicting scenarios of Laika's death were circulating in the West. Recently, several Russian sources revealed that Laika survived in orbit for four days and then died when the cabin overheated. The design of the cabin was derived from the nose sections of experimental ballistic missiles that carried dogs into the upper atmosphere in short and relatively slow-speed flights, ending in a parachute landing. With Sputnik 2, the Cold War politics left no time for designers to develop a life-support system for a long-duration flight, not to mention to protect a spacecraft for a fiery reentry. Laika's story started soon after the Sputnik 1 triumph, when Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet leader at the time, hosted a big reception for leading rocket designers. Among those present was Sergei Korolev, the founder of the Soviet space program. At the reception, Khrushchev made the suggestion that another Sputnik be launched to mark the 40th Anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution celebrated on November 7. At the time, Korolev had a sophisticated research satellite in the works. However, it could not possibly be ready for takeoff before December 1957. That satellite would later become Sputnik 3. To meet the November anniversary deadline, an entirely new design for Sputnik 2 emerged. According to various Russian sources, the official decision to launch Sputnik 2 before November 7 was made on October 10 or 12, 1957. In any case, Korolev's team had less than four weeks to design and build the spacecraft. All traditions developed in rocket technology were thrown out (during work on the second satellite), wrote Boris Chertok, deputy to Sergei Korolev. The second satellite was created without preliminary design, or any kind of design. According to Chertok's memoirs, most elements of the spacecraft were manufactured from sketches, while engineers moved into production facilities to assist workers on site. The common belief is that Sputnik 2 failed to separate from its booster. In reality, the satellite was designed to remain attached to the upper stage of its launcher, so that the rocket's own telemetry system could be used to transmit data from the spacecraft. The scientists did their best to benefit from this opportunity created by Cold War politics. Laika's cabin was equipped with a television camera, along with sensors to measure ambient pressure and temperature, as well as the canine passenger's blood pressure, breath frequency and heartbeat. These instruments allowed ground controllers to monitor how Laika functioned and died in space. Above the dog's cabin, the engineers mounted a spherical container that was developed for Sputnik 1. It held a radio transmitter and an instrument to register ultraviolet and x-ray radiation. After a successful launch, Sputnik 2 exhausted its electrical batteries after six days in orbit. With all systems
[meteorite-list] New email from Gregory, total change of tone.
Ok, now Randall, or the Doctor claims that the money extracted from me was for police expenses/ I guess they forgot to collect them from us on the way to the crater, they decided to do it in plain-clothes at 9 pm and 5 am, demanding hundreds of $$$ each. Um, yeah, okk. It seems that my discussions with the local press and the landowner are hitting home now. Note the change in tone in this email? Randall, I think the local government will be coming for your meteorite piece, you admitteed yourself that you bought 4 kilos from Major Anaya, the press are eating that up and I think you had better prepare for the knock on your door at 5 am. Randall, if you kick the tiger in the balls, you had better plan to deal with it's teeth! Michael Farmer --- Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas (whoops) Lake Titicaca meteorite fall To: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike, I didn't know you spoke Spanish. Que Tal? It's quite possible you misunderstood what transpired. You paid the police a service fee for driving you out to the site in their 2 trucks. Gasoline is very expensive there. Four dollars $4 a gallon if I recall. Additionally, they provided you with round the clock protection on their own time to protect you from would be bandits. They woke you up because they heard reports that some Bolivians got wind there was a millionare Gringo staying in Desaguadero. Remember how close to the border you were? You were less than 1/2 mile. They could have taken you though the truck route at the other bridge where it's very dark and trucks pass with little or no inspection of the contents. This area is the land of the Quechua and they speak a mixture of Spanish and native language. My wife kids me because I speak Spanglish. It is the center for Peruvian Folklore and the language is preserved. Try to recall what they said exactly to you and since you were a Language major in college, I would recommend getting the book Compendio de Gramatica y Vocabulario Quechua - Aymara by Villamor, German. I believe it's $18. Then see if anything they said might have been a misinterpretation. Look deep and I think you'll find your answer. ;) Mike, I believe this event was a gift from God. Randall P.S. Please change the name from Carancas to Lake Titicaca. We can share with the Bolivian people, they're all Quechua - Aymara. Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had three people in my party, so how they reported 5 Americans is beyond me. It shows the lack in information that they use in Peru to print the news. I have been on the phone for hours with the press in Peru, and the embassy, and I have a funny feeling that this will get much nastier now, that I have denounced the police and Randall and forwarded his emails to the press in Peru! This should be fun, especially the report of Randall that he bought a 4 kilo stone from the chief of police, the same one who came to arrest me for trafficking meteorites. I guess his own sales were ok, but not my purchases from him:) I think the police in that town are about to be in a little trouble, as the Peruvian press is loving to hear my side of the story, with emails to prove it! I speak fluent Spanish, I guess Randall did not know this. Too bad for him. Michael Farmer By the way, I did not pay bribes, I paid EXTORTION money, and I assure you that if you were in our shoes, you would pay when extorted, of course I played dumb and paid them little, and got out of there. --- E.P. Grondine wrote: Hi Robert, all - At least the newspaper got it right - 5 meteorite traficantes - Farmer had 3 in his party, so you were in the company of someone else. And yes, la mordida is a bane, of which you have mastery. There is one thing that can be said for Farmer, at least he openly reported his bribes - you haven't. Others here have pointed out that you ripped off the locals by preying on their ignorance of the market and offering them low prices. In Canada, this kind of thing would not happen because of the laws there. On the other hand, a lot of Moss Lake was lost. The question here is did you enter into a contract with the land owner, and if so when? Did the land owner allow others to collect on his land? The money from the sales of the pieces that the police seized from the finders must either be given to them or to the land owners. But there is a fat chance of that happening. So how about a list of who bought what from whom when you go to catalog? Say Oficer Jose or Mayor Jorge? Robert, you're being just plain nasty here. Please stop insulting Farmer, and please stop using a false name and false title. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the
Re: [meteorite-list] Mike Farmer-Moritz-Robert---Welcome Home!
What Herman said! -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:47 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Mike Farmer-Moritz-Robert---Welcome Home! Welcome to your homes and it sure is good to hear from Mike about their adventure.I am glad you were able to acquire some of the meteorite for your collections and probably for science.Your description really puts a human perspective to meteorite hunting and retreival of specimens.YOU GUYS ARE TOUGH and i personally knew that you would weather anything the police and jealous adversaries could throw at you. Good luck and thanks for your reports to the list. Best Regards;Herman Archer. IMCA#2770 ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New email from Gregory, total change of tone.
...if you kick the tiger in the balls, you had better plan to deal with it's teeth! Michael Farmer Tiger Mike! It has a ring to it! (the name, not the balls ;] ) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:10:03 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] New email from Gregory, total change of tone. Ok, now Randall, or the Doctor claims that the money extracted from me was for police expenses/ I guess they forgot to collect them from us on the way to the crater, they decided to do it in plain-clothes at 9 pm and 5 am, demanding hundreds of $$$ each. Um, yeah, okk. It seems that my discussions with the local press and the landowner are hitting home now. Note the change in tone in this email? Randall, I think the local government will be coming for your meteorite piece, you admitteed yourself that you bought 4 kilos from Major Anaya, the press are eating that up and I think you had better prepare for the knock on your door at 5 am. Randall, if you kick the tiger in the balls, you had better plan to deal with it's teeth! Michael Farmer --- Randall Gregory wrote: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Randall Gregory Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas (whoops) Lake Titicaca meteorite fall To: Michael Farmer Mike, I didn't know you spoke Spanish. Que Tal? It's quite possible you misunderstood what transpired. You paid the police a service fee for driving you out to the site in their 2 trucks. Gasoline is very expensive there. Four dollars $4 a gallon if I recall. Additionally, they provided you with round the clock protection on their own time to protect you from would be bandits. They woke you up because they heard reports that some Bolivians got wind there was a millionare Gringo staying in Desaguadero. Remember how close to the border you were? You were less than 1/2 mile. They could have taken you though the truck route at the other bridge where it's very dark and trucks pass with little or no inspection of the contents. This area is the land of the Quechua and they speak a mixture of Spanish and native language. My wife kids me because I speak Spanglish. It is the center for Peruvian Folklore and the language is preserved. Try to recall what they said exactly to you and since you were a Language major in college, I would recommend getting the book Compendio de Gramatica y Vocabulario Quechua - Aymara by Villamor, German. I believe it's $18. Then see if anything they said might have been a misinterpretation. Look deep and I think you'll find your answer. ;) Mike, I believe this event was a gift from God. Randall P.S. Please change the name from Carancas to Lake Titicaca. We can share with the Bolivian people, they're all Quechua - Aymara. Michael Farmer wrote: I had three people in my party, so how they reported 5 Americans is beyond me. It shows the lack in information that they use in Peru to print the news. I have been on the phone for hours with the press in Peru, and the embassy, and I have a funny feeling that this will get much nastier now, that I have denounced the police and Randall and forwarded his emails to the press in Peru! This should be fun, especially the report of Randall that he bought a 4 kilo stone from the chief of police, the same one who came to arrest me for trafficking meteorites. I guess his own sales were ok, but not my purchases from him:) I think the police in that town are about to be in a little trouble, as the Peruvian press is loving to hear my side of the story, with emails to prove it! I speak fluent Spanish, I guess Randall did not know this. Too bad for him. Michael Farmer By the way, I did not pay bribes, I paid EXTORTION money, and I assure you that if you were in our shoes, you would pay when extorted, of course I played dumb and paid them little, and got out of there. --- E.P. Grondine wrote: Hi Robert, all - At least the newspaper got it right - 5 meteorite traficantes - Farmer had 3 in his party, so you were in the company of someone else. And yes, la mordida is a bane, of which you have mastery. There is one thing that can be said for Farmer, at least he openly reported his bribes - you haven't. Others here have pointed out that you ripped off the locals by preying on their ignorance of the market and offering them low prices. In Canada, this kind of thing would not happen because of the laws there. On the other hand, a lot of Moss Lake was lost. The question here is did you enter into a contract with the land owner, and if so when? Did the land owner allow others to collect on his land? The money from the sales of the pieces that the police seized from the finders must either be given to them or to the land owners. But there is a fat chance of that happening. So how about a list of who bought what from whom when you go to catalog? Say Oficer Jose
Re: [meteorite-list] Peruvian Petrol prices
--- Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You paid the police a service fee for driving you out to the site in their 2 trucks. Gasoline is very expensive there. Four dollars $4 a gallon if I recall. I gotta move to Peru. That's about half the cost of gasoline in the UK at the current exchange rate. (there are 4.55 l/gal though I think a US gallon is only 3.79 l. I'm paying $9/USgal where I live). While the strength of Sterling does make buying from the States very economical right now, I can't help but imagine just how big the rocks I could buy would be if I weren't spending so much of my salary on fuel Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New email from Gregory, total change of tone.
There is a definite change in tone in his apology email and this one too. Is it sincere? Or is it like our old friend Ssssteve? Only time will tell. Mike Fowler Chicago __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
i also don't recall anyone having suggested that mike has been heroic. however, mike's efforts and successes in meteorite recovery are nothing short of extraordinary. regardless of what anyone personally thinks of mike or his off-topic missives, any future overview of meteorite hunters which neglects to cite mike's accomplishments should be regarded with suspicion---as it would be conspicuously weak in scholarship. On Oct 4, 2007, at 6:42 PM, Darren Garrison wrote: Hunting and dealing meteorites is not a heroic achievement as some seem to indicate in their messages to this board. Diving in the water to save a stranger's life is heroic. Falling on a hand grenade to save your buddies is heroic. A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. (Please point out who said Mike was a hero, because I missed it). __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hi, Paul, List, I just posted: The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams... Wrong! Grabbing numbers from a column of numbers, in a hurry, whoops! 1033 grams per sq. cm. is sea level atmospheric pressure in metric. The 1200 gram figure is the weight of a cubic meter of dry air at sea level, in case you're wondering... 14.7 pounds is 6.668 kg. Now, if politicians would correct their mistakes as fast... Sterling -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru In a message dated 10/4/2007 6:40:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams. Not to quibble...but I always thought that 14 pounds equaled about 6,000 plus or minus a few grams. Have I missed something? Best regards, Paul Martyn Savannah, GA See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:51:56 -0400, you wrote: i also don't recall anyone having suggested that mike has been heroic. however, mike's efforts and successes in meteorite recovery are nothing short of extraordinary. regardless of what anyone personally thinks of mike or his off-topic missives, any future overview of meteorite hunters which neglects to cite mike's accomplishments should be regarded with suspicion---as it would be conspicuously weak in scholarship. While I agree Mike isn't a hero for recovering meteorites (and nobody used that word) using the word heroic could arguably fit within the definition of that word: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heroic having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures http://www.answers.com/heroicr=67 Impressive in size or scope; grand Of a size or scale that is larger than life I would think that dropping everything to jet to any corner of the world to face down guns and corrupt officials (not to mention desert heat) should rank right up there. /end rear-smooching __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Soil at the impact site
Hi, List Just to reinforce a point... If you go that second story: http://www.livinginperu.com/news/4840 and click to enlarge the picture, you will see a marvelous view of the material excavated by the impact that is now turned over in the rim. The great majority of it is blocks of country stone. I would say that 75% of the crater ejecta is shattered rocky strata. (The Peruvian sources say it is mostly Cenozoic limestone.) Big blocks of stone, and dirt a minority component. This was NOT a wet soil soft landing. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer Make sure you check out the link for the other meteorite story at the end of this article. Has a nice photo of Mike at the crater. Good job and welcome back, Mike! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. What? -Walter Branch, Ph.D. (child and adolescent psychologist) - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:34:55 -0600, you wrote: Peru close proximity to the fall site versus Mike Farmer's home locale of Tucson should indicate that Randall's specimens be priced far less than Mike's. Yes, it should. Hunting and dealing meteorites is not a heroic achievement as some seem to indicate in their messages to this board. Diving in the water to save a stranger's life is heroic. Falling on a hand grenade to save your buddies is heroic. A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. (Please point out who said Mike was a hero, because I missed it). __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Per ù kaput for Farmer
As more of a reader than poster please take your snipes off-line. No one cares what you have to say - really! Kelly M come Meteorite Meteorites wrote: http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4832-environmentnature-meteorite-crater-guarded-perus-police-after-u-s-citizens-attempt-traffick-it oh o.is good Farmer not return in Perù Matteo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome
i believe this is a reference to literary archetypes. take care susan - Original Message - From: Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. What? -Walter Branch, Ph.D. (child and adolescent psychologist) - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On Meteorite Pricing and A Good Outcome On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:34:55 -0600, you wrote: Peru close proximity to the fall site versus Mike Farmer's home locale of Tucson should indicate that Randall's specimens be priced far less than Mike's. Yes, it should. Hunting and dealing meteorites is not a heroic achievement as some seem to indicate in their messages to this board. Diving in the water to save a stranger's life is heroic. Falling on a hand grenade to save your buddies is heroic. A hero kills people, people that wish them harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma, or out of a disaster that must be avenged. (Please point out who said Mike was a hero, because I missed it). __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Carancas meteorite crater, and list of all known craters
http://www.star-bits.com/impact-craters.htm Hi everyone, Eric Olson is at my house to see the Carancas meteorites, and he asked me to post this link. It is a list of every known impact crater of more than 10 meters in diameter, from which meteorites had been found. Of all of those craters, not one, ZERO is associated with a chondrite. Jilin and Norton County, both masses well over a ton, had craters less than 50% the size of the Carancas meteorite. This is very interesting and proves how rare such a chondrite fall is! Michael Farmer I am ready to forget and ignore the controversy and focus on the science of this spectaclar event at this time, I have had my say and told my story. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Post from Randall
I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall
Will people stop posting for this guy ? I think we heard enough about this crap already. Mike, start selling please. BE - Original Message - From: fausta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall
Randall, I will not return my pieces, under Peruvian law they belong to the landowner and Comunidad, I purchased them from all of the locals, they got lots of money, and were happy. I saved a few hundred grams from being lost,. The government can take the thousands of kilos of rust in two months when they plan do excavate it, they said it in the news today, that they will wait two months Nice job, great scientific minds down there, they don't need advice from a meteorite expert like me I guess. The meteorite hit and penetrated below the water table, that is why the crater refilled minutes after we pumped it out. The water is lowest at this moment, as they are coming out of winter, the dry season, and within weeks the rains will start, the creek will flood, and the crater will cease to exist. You cant manipulate the water table there, so they can not protect the crater. For the love of sanity, DIG OUT THE METEORITE NOW, PERU! Michael Farmer --- fausta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall
Why post for the guy? Tell him to post directly to Mike instead wasting the rest of our time. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 - Original Message - From: fausta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] QMIG update
Listoids Something to take your mind off the Peru bickering - I swear North Queensland is the best holiday destination on earth - great barrier reef sunshine sand palm trees coral and thats just the coastline - lets not forget about the outback and rainforests and... More of a downdate rather than an update today http://www.qmig.org The EMP machine at JCU went kaput after three of my chondrites went thru so the rest are gonna haveta wait - damn vacuum pump - I swear my chondrites are cursed I'm preparing my Nissan Skyline for launch this arvo - re-entry and splashdown at JCU later where I'll see if I can loiter for some more pictures Cheers __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Not so fast Sterling :-) The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... doesn't make mucked-up analyses a requirement! Short and simple as I just read your reply to me in which you somehow missed the central point I asked about when you insisted that the crater contains nothing but powder...let's take a little more of a scientific approach. My prior post began, Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly powder inside, especially for a meteorite that sheds like this one particularly along its natural 'fault' lines. Please answer that question clearly for my benefit rather than skipping and speaking of Canyon Diablo and Barringer. A much better comparison, btw, is Jilin. As to the ancillary stuff... Congratulations on ace Mountaineer Mike Fowler who mentioned that 50% of the atmosphere is under 3.5 miles elevation - it jives within 100 meters to the calculation I worked on and gives me the confidence I need for checking this calculation. When you state that only 58% of the atmosphere's mass was in the path of the Peruvian meteorite, just to keep a sensible argument going, I would suggest you don't introduce bias via adjectives like only into the interpretation. There is an incorrect implication that in this last 2 miles of atmosphere, cosmic velocity is typically damped. ---not true. According to my numbers, your 58% estimate was ok for the back of an envelope, though a little exaggerated. I calculated it to be 62.1% using a more accurate model (which agrees to M. Fowler's 3.5 mile figure within 100 m) for the atmosphere than your barometric formula. Rather than dump a bunch of numbers on the list, let me just share this graph, which I just generated that is useful from sea level to 25 kilometers altitude, so you can graphically see how much atmospheric mass is traversed for any bolide around at the Peruvian crater's around October. Don't forget that the ablative path for most meteorites stops much, much higher than 3800 meters! www.diogenite.com/Huanocollo.gif This graphically gives a great idea of how much % of the atmosphere any meteorite anywhere on Earth passes through to get to any altitude above sea level, and if you look at it you can see how much of a fraction of the atmosphere mass is traversed in any segment of the travel from 25Km on down. Just compare the blue area to the white and you get the idea of of the FRACTION of the atmosphere traversed. No arithmetic needed - the ratio of blue to blue+white is the % of the atmosphere for any geographical elevation and includes luminous paths too.. Sorry, but I can't accept your dismissing unscientifically the arrival of any meteoritical material generally to the ground as difficult to on one hand and then on the other calculate all these asides to things even you don't want to know to such precision! 62% is 62%, not only anything. 62% of the atmosphere is only where it starts in this case in Peru, but this is another subject. I.e., if it comes in at around a 45 degree angle instead of vertical, it passes through the full 100% since it doesn't take the straight path, and you are back to square one. These meteorite was observed to enter at an angle. Yes, I understand that on average meteorites reaching sea level will go through more atmosphere, but this is a non-issue when they are conveniently sized and in free fall for that 3800 meters. The one effect I will agree that will cause a higher velocity, which has nothing to do with retaining cosmic velocity, is that FREE FALL VELOCITY is greater in thinner air. There is plenty to be said about that as you would imagine such as a potential doubling of the energy of impact making a bigger crater for something the size of Jilin. I don't think it is likely a huge ball is at the bottom of the crater. Just that there are plenty of kilos that weren't pulverized in the mucky crater. Best health, Doug The numbers behind the graph, I could post if you want, along with the modeled temperature in F and C of the atmosphere over its lat/lon. I used the trapazoidal rule to estimate the percent of the atmospheric mass with the midpoints of intervals of 200 meters altitude for 0 - 25 kim above sea level.), and considered that the atmosphere ended at 100Km above sea level. - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru Hi, Paul, List, I just posted: The air in it weighs 14.7 pounds if you start at sea level, or 1200 grams... Wrong! Grabbing numbers from a column of numbers, in a hurry, whoops! 1033 grams per sq. cm. is sea level atmospheric pressure in metric. The 1200 gram figure is the weight of a cubic meter of dry air at sea
[meteorite-list] Japan's SELENE probe reaches lunar orbit
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7085693 Japan's SELENE probe reaches lunar orbit By ERIC TALMADGE Associated Press Writer News Fuze Article Launched:10/04/2007 05:46:19 PM PDT TOKYOJapan has placed a satellite in orbit around the moon for the first time, officials said Friday, in a major space breakthrough for the Asian nation. The mission involves positioning the main satellite at an altitude of about 60 miles and deploying two smaller satellites in polar orbits, according to the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, or JAXA. Researchers will use data gathered by the $279 million Selenological and Engineering Exploreror SELENEproject to study the moon's origin and evolution. The main orbiter will stay in position for about a year. Japanese officials claim the effort is the largest lunar mission since the U.S. Apollo program in terms of overall scope and ambition. We believe this is a big step, said project manager Yoshisada Takizawa. Everything is going well and we are confident. Project engineers put the probe through a maneuver late Thursday and confirmed early Friday it had achieved orbit, Takizawa said. It will gradually move into a lower orbit as it continues its mission to map and analyze the moon's surface. Takizawa said it will begin its observation phase in mid- to late-December. The timing was very delicate, he said at a news conference in JAXA's Tokyo headquarters. It was important to the completion of the mission, and it was successful. The project marks a key advance for Japanwhich launched its first satellite in 1972 but is now struggling to keep up with rival China. Japan launched a moon probe in 1990, but that was a flyby mission. It canceled another moon shot that was to have been launched in 2004 but had been repeatedly postponed because of mechanical and fiscal problems. The long-delayed SELENE was launched on Sept. 14 aboard one of the space program's mainstay H-2A rockets from Tanegashima, the remote island where the agency's space center is located. The missionfour years behind JAXA's original schedulecomes as China is planning to launch its own lunar probe, reportedly by year's end. China continues to lead Japan in Asia's space race. It sent shock waves through the region in 2003, when it became the first Asian country to put its own astronauts into space. More ominously, China also blasted an old satellite into oblivion with a land-based anti-satellite missile, the first such test ever conducted by any nation, including the United States and Russia. That test was widely criticized for its military implications. A similar rocket could be used to shoot military satellites out of space, and create a dangerous haze of space debris. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Great article in Peru news tonight
http://www.andina.com.pe/NoticiaDetalle.aspx?id=144322 I will translate it here for those who do not read spanish. Michael Farmer Police in Desaguadero Deny having sold pieces of meteorite to Americans Desaguadero, Oct 4. The cheif of police in Desaguadero, Major Victor Anaya denied having sold pieces of the luminous object that fell on the community of Carancas to an American Meteorite Hunter. According to Michael Farmer, known meteorite dealer, the local police sold him the majority of fragments. He affirmed as well, that Major Anaya sold to another american, a piece of meteorite of some 4 kilograms for two thousand dollars. After being contacted by the news agency, Andina, Major Anaya assured that that story is totally false and the local police had done very well in recovering fragments of the meteorite, but that they were later sent to different scientific institutions. He said he had documentation for shipments of meteorite and said that other local police kept no pieces of the meteorite. As told by Javier Atuhuachi, whos mother-in-law Gavino Ramos Madani, who is the landowner of the agricultural land there the meteorite fall on the 15th of September, agreed with Farmer in affirming that the police took most of the meteorite pieces left by the celetial body. The day that the meteorite fell, no local member of the community went to collect pieces because they were scared of contracting some form of sickness. Later when they learned that they were worth money, they began collecting pieces using magnets, but all of the larger pieces had been taken by the police he said. I have personal knowledge that the police sold these pieces for large sums of money? he said, although he clarified that he had seen none of the transactions he spoke about. On the otherhand, he said that his mother-in-law has received no compensation from the meteorite which fell on her agricultural land, in spite of more than 25 years of sowing Cebada and potatoes on this spot. Lastly, Atahuachi lamented that he now must abandon his home beacuse of the fear f sickness and because fragments of the meteorite destroyed the tin roof and damaged the walls of the home. End __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Great shor of the crater
http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/crater.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Great shor of the crater
Darren, Thanks that was a good laugh before I turn in for the night. Bob - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:12 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Great shor of the crater http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/crater.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall
Oh, I wouldn't say, that it is a waste of time. Other people are paying money to see such great films like The treasure of the Sierra Madre -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Greg Hupe Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 03:54 An: fausta Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall Why post for the guy? Tell him to post directly to Mike instead wasting the rest of our time. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 - Original Message - From: fausta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Post from Randall I was asked to post this: Hey Fausta, will you post for me? Please. I propose this to Mr. Farmer. That we both return all of our meteorite's to the Peruvian government and ask them permission if we can keep one for our respective collections. They can make that decision. And they can also decide how much we can keep. Then we apologize to the people of Carancas and offer to them to help preserve the crater and extract the main mass (if any). Just a thought. I like to call it Doing the right thing. Randall (no problemo) Gregory (Dragon Slayer) not a Tiger! I don't know him at all. Kelly __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WAAAAAH! Mikey got a booboo
Bob and list, Don't get me wrong: Dr. Randall Cirrhosis is obviously manipulative and has double standards, since he understands Peruvian cultural intricacies, and can thus behave like a colonialist. I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, since he has not made any attempt to hide his actions from our criticism, although Mark Bostick probably was correct assuming that Dr. Daniels is/was probably perpetually drunk. Without any defense of Randall Gregory, I ask how certain actions of Mike can be held inviolable, simply because list members wish to remain publicly unsympathetic to a man who is less useful as a collector's means to acquire new material. I believe I aptly label Mike by asserting that he has demonstrated on this list an arrogance and smugness, coupled with an adversarial, impulsive tendency to insult other list members openly at the distance of his security somewhere in cyberspace (I am pointing at myself here as well - here I admit a bit of hypocrisy, albeit only in the form of my recriminative attitude), peddling acquisitions and exulting in his commercial success as his right to be an insensitive chauvinist, whose character as a social being is evidently secondary in importance. --- Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thaddeus, Im sorry but I dont have time to read every post. Could you elaborate on your comments. Im curious about your opinion. Thanks, BE - Original Message - From: Thaddeus Besedin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 2:20 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] WAH! Mikey got a booboo List, Defend your source, but don't ask questions as to his ethics. With Mike's impulse disorder evident, who indeed is nursing a bottle? Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru
Hola, Doug, I think the variety of reports I've already posted and then referred to several times, are all that I can say to your dislike for my reconstruction of the event. I confess to being somewhat mystified by your comments. The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... Quite to the contrary, it is a textbook normal conical simple crater with a width/depth ratio of 3:1 (13.4 meters wide and 4+ meters deep), just like ideal theoretical crater. A much better comparison, btw, is Jilin. The Carancas crater bears no resemblance to Jilin, none whatsoever. Jilin is not a crater. Jilin is not even an impact pit. Jilin is a hole 6 meters deep and less than 2 meters wide. Jilin is a good example of your previous metaphor of a marble dropped in a snowbank. It was so slow-moving that it just poked a hole in the dirt. what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact The incredible amount of meteorite powder Mike mentioned is not a derivation from a model; it's a witness statement by someone who was there, an expert witness at that. The mechanism is back-spalling. The shock wave of impact, originating at the point of impact, extends both forward into the target material and backward through the impactor. If the speed of impact exceeds the speed of sound in the meteoritic material, the expanding shock wave shreds the meteorite and pushes the distrupting material back, away from the impact. [I insert here the fact that the few tests that have been performed on meteorites show that the speed of sound is less in meteorites than in comparable terrestrial rocks. The more porous the meteorite, the slower the speed of sound in it. Carancas was a dead duck, I'm afraid.] In a truly violent impact, only the central rear portion of the impactor survives as fragments. In less violent impacts, the rear quarter, third or more of the impactor is fragmented and ejected backwards (along with the powdered material closer to the point of impact). It is found radially distributed around the crater (or asymetrically if an oblique impact). I mentioned Canyon Diablo because Nininger first elucidated the mechanism, I believe, although I cannot cite chapter and verse. Googling, I discover that Jay Melosh claims to have discovered it. Shame, shame. How quickly they pick, not your bones, but your ideas... once you're dead. http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-documentdoi=10.1130%2F1052-5173(2002)012%3C0029%3AGKGA%3E2.0.CO%3B2ct=1 Melosh's Impact Cratering: A Geological Process is the standard work on impact mechanics. Amazon Canada has used copy for only $665.77. I guess it's priceless knowledge. Well, no; it has a price. And not in crummy US dollars either, but those rare and valuable Canadian dollars! the ablative path for most meteorites stops much, much higher than 3800 meters! I cited the witness evidence that indicates the ablative path continued to, or very near to, the crater, so this is another ditto. And if it was ablating to the ground, it clearly wasn't in free fall. I quote Jose Machero of INGEMMET (which I've done before): There was a strong explosion that was felt up to Desaguadero city 20 km from the impact site. Some window glasses of the Local Health Center (at 1 km from the site) were broken. An impact that was felt 20 kilometers away does not sound like free fall to me. I really like the graph. May a Lunar fall gently in your back garden. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Entry Dynamics in Peru Not so fast Sterling :-) The size of the crater, which is rare or even unique... doesn't make mucked-up analyses a requirement! Short and simple as I just read your reply to me in which you somehow missed the central point I asked about when you insisted that the crater contains nothing but powder...let's take a little more of a scientific approach. My prior post began, Sterling what model you have accounts for potato sized meteorites (and powder) scattered in and around meters from the impact, yet strictly powder inside, especially for a meteorite that sheds like this one particularly along its natural 'fault' lines. Please answer that question clearly for my benefit rather than skipping and speaking of Canyon Diablo and Barringer. A much better comparison, btw, is Jilin. As to the ancillary stuff... Congratulations on ace Mountaineer Mike Fowler who mentioned that 50% of the atmosphere is under 3.5 miles elevation - it jives within 100 meters to the calculation I worked on and gives me the confidence I need for checking this calculation. When
[meteorite-list] WARNING
List, Randall Gregory's last post (the one with an attachment) has a running script in it, i.e., may be viral or otherwise harmless. I burned it. What is a script? A script is basicly a program, and if your e-mail client opens it, it'll do whatever it was intended to do, which could be just about anything, including format your HD. That's what my favorite expert said. And I see RG's posted another with an attachment. I recommend destruction. And block him. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WARNING II
List, Randall Gregory's last post (the one with an attachment) has a running script in it, i.e., may be viral or otherwise harmless. I meant to say HARMFUL, not harmless obviously. We have a serial jerk running amuck on the List. I burned it. What is a script? A script is basicly a program, and if your e-mail client opens it, it'll do whatever it was intended to do, which could be just about anything, including format your HD. That's what my favorite expert said. And I see RG's posted another with an attachment. I recommend destruction. And block him. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
