Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On 6/27/07, Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? Unless you are a geography geek there is not that much sense in it. Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. For print you could just override the style in the print stylesheet. Well, to use it in any application that doesn't yet consume GEO (i.e. sadly a lot of them) you'd want to be able to cut and paste it at the minimum... -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Quoting Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why? Unless you are a geography geek there is not that much sense in it. Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. For print you could just override the style in the print stylesheet. I can't see any harm in displaying it people might want to copy/paste it into some kind of mapping application, or compare it with output from a GPS device, etc There's a lot of things a technically-minded users may *want* to do with that sort data. I would posit, though, that the average user (who, incidentally, also doesn't really like to read things like -MM-DDThh:mm:ss.sTZD) doesn't, and is far better served with functional buttons/links or Operator-like tools. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. Well, we just conducted usability tests on a local search application that displayed lat and lon and most users we tested on were confused as to what they were. You could put your argument under any of the other emails, though, as we do want to have geo in web sites, and assume it is useful for people to copy and paste, print out or whatever. I agree with patrick that an interface element that explains what that is before showing it is the best option. -- Chris Heilmann Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com Writing: http://icant.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. Well, we just conducted usability tests on a local search application that displayed lat and lon and most users we tested on were confused as to what they were. You could put your argument under any of the other emails, though, as we do want to have geo in web sites, and assume it is useful for people to copy and paste, print out or whatever. There is *evidence* that people want to, and do, publish coordinates; and in decimal format at that. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Wiki vandalism: species-brainstorming
On 27/06/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://microformats.org/wiki/species-brainstorming has been vandalised, such that it cannot be edited or read. I went back to the previous version and was able to edit this version, and therefore save it as current. Can you take a look and see if it's correct to you now? -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Quoting Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can doubt all you like, but the evidence is still there ;-) Flickr and Wikipedia are two prominent examples. Tellingly, Flickr hides that stuff by default. Wikipedia, being user generated, isn't always a beacon of best practice for usability and good web design, I'd say... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:22 AM, Christian Heilmann wrote: Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. This is kind of a pointless debate, for two reasons. First, it's impossible to retract an already-published standard. Second, the goal of microformats is to standardize markup of *already published* content, so if you're not already publishing latitude and longitude coordinates, geo is irrelevant to you. You shouldn't be adding content just for the sake of using a microformat, whether the microformat is geo or anything else. If you only want to map addresses, you don't necessarily need to publish latitude and longitude for that. There are plenty of services that will map plain text addresses to latitude and longitude coordinates, so a published addr is often enough for mapping. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Quoting Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can doubt all you like, but the evidence is still there ;-) Flickr and Wikipedia are two prominent examples. Tellingly, Flickr hides that stuff by default. Nope. Pages such as: http://flickr.com/photos/stevenhorner/612098574/ have coordinates exposed by default - look at the tags. They currently have: 250,911 results for photos matching geo:lon Wikipedia, being user generated, isn't always a beacon of best practice for usability and good web design, I'd say... Perhaps, but then we were discussing what people want to do, and what people do, not whether they do it well. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On 6/27/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. Pages such as: http://flickr.com/photos/stevenhorner/612098574/ have coordinates exposed by default - look at the tags. They currently have: 250,911 results for photos matching geo:lon Andy, I can't see this, but maybe I'm being stupid. Where on the page do you see this? I can see the geo tags, but only if I expand the 'machine tags' section, which seems like a nice comprimise for machine-targetted / human-targetted data. -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom - proposed move from draft to full spec
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Recently, there has been alot of discuss on the IRC about implementing hAtom in Operator. As long as there are outstanding issues and questions about how things work, then i don't consider the spec complete. Before moving to the specifications section, drop a note to microformats-discuss and wait a day or two for major objections. If none are forthcoming, move the microformat to the specifications area. This move will wake up any sleeping editors, and they may raise an objection and move you back to draft. If you have followed the process, now is the time to pin them down. At this juncture, any remaining issues should be easy to resolve. (Section quoted in full.) i'll try and get a full list of outstanding issues available. I believe that we need to flush out the test suite and compare several implementations. At the moment we have atleast 2 that i am aware of (maybe hKit too?). I think it is a matter for the Authors of the spec to suggest moving the spec from draft forward when they feel comfortable - maybe they are more aware of issues than others? That was written in April; is there any news? -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Geo -proposed move from draft to full spec (was: Geo - why still draft)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 4/9/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is geo still a draft, when it's included in the already-published hCard spec? It's the idea of pulling the GEO out of hCard and making it usable on its own that is a draft specification, I believe. GEO and ADR as stand-alone microformats outside of hCard came later, which is why they're at a less advanced stage than hCard. In that case, I think it satisfies the requirements, such as they are, at: http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Specifications and should be made a full specification. Any objections? I wrote that on 9 April, and there have been no objections, What now? -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Andy Mabbett wrote: On the page I cited, the coordinates are in plain text, in the tags, as stated. Do you have javascript disabled? In that case, yes the geo:lat and geo:long appear there in plain text by default. Otherwise, normal users never see them unless they bother to hit the Show machine tags link...and rightly so, as people who are not into code geekery, geocaching, or some other niche pursuit that will require them access to the actual raw lat/long data, will more likely want to see something like the map display. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Date of Death in hCard
There having been no comments, much less objections, I intend to proceed with this, using died as the property name, in five days from the time of posting. In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes There has been some previous discussion: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-suggestions#Deceased of adding a Date of Death (DoD) field to hCard, but no development work. I propose that we adopt one, immediately. IMPORTANCE Date of death is important in many ways: *It is a flag that the subject is deceased - but is more specific than a deceased, dead or other tag (which may not even be in English). *It is significant in genealogy *It differentiates between two people of the same name, born on the same day. *When a user agent offers the ability to generate an iCal for the subject's birthday, it will allow the user-agent to warn that the birthdays will not occur or to simply decline to do so; or to alternatively generate a differently-worded anniversary of birth iCal. *It allows user agents to calculate the subject's age at death (where Date of Birth, DoB, is known) In short, it offers additional semantic richness. EVIDENCE There are a plethora of DoDs published on the web; not least in almost every Wikipedia biography for a dead person; Google finds about 1,520,000 for died on alo. NAMING The hCard DoB property is called bday. A DoD property could therefore be called dday, or perhaps dod, death or died. BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY *The addition of DoD would be fully backwards- compatible. Parsers (and publishers) may simply ignore it. Parsers which recognise it would simply ignore it when exporting vCards. *Its use would require a small change to the existing boilerplate wording: using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL) properties and values in semantic XHTML. to something like: using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL) properties and values, with additional properties, in semantic XHTML. or using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL]) properties and values, with an additional property for date of death, in semantic XHTML. (A future modification of vCard may choose to implement a matching DoD field; however, this is outside the control of the microformats community, and vCard development appears to be stagnant. ) *All current hCard documentation would remain valid, even before being updated. PROPERTIES The field's properties should be identical to those for bday. REQUEST FOR COMMENTS Is there any reason why DoD should not be included in hCard? Are there any preferences for the property name? Are there any preferences for the boilerplate wording? NEXT STEPS As soon as a property-name is agreed, I propose to ask Mike Kaply to kindly parse an hCard DoD field in Operator, and to seek agreement on Wikipedia-EN to include DoD in biographical infobox templates (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_biography, of which there are already over 5,000 deployments alone). Parser authors may then wish to write code to calculate a subject's age at death (and, indeed, the age of living subjects); and to export anniversary of birth iCals (and, indeed, iCals for birthdays for living people) -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On 6/27/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/ thanks for the link, it has been on and off the radar for a good 6 months now: The thread started back in september 2006 http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-September/005485.html -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On 6/27/07, John Beales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/ -- Andy Mabbett Why are they set up on their own, did we poo-poo the concept at microformats.org or something? No, they just decided to do their own thing and use the microformats name. I brought this up a few months ago actually Regards, etc -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Date of Death in hCard
Hi, I'm kind of late commenting, but perhaps, because of its similarity to the existing bday we should use dday? Although, died is easier to understand at first glance it could be construed as died = at the hands of another or something. Just my 2-bits, either way it'll be handy as I have a project coming up involving dead people. John On 6/27/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There having been no comments, much less objections, I intend to proceed with this, using died as the property name, in five days from the time of posting. In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes There has been some previous discussion: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-suggestions#Deceased of adding a Date of Death (DoD) field to hCard, but no development work. I propose that we adopt one, immediately. IMPORTANCE Date of death is important in many ways: *It is a flag that the subject is deceased - but is more specific than a deceased, dead or other tag (which may not even be in English). *It is significant in genealogy *It differentiates between two people of the same name, born on the same day. *When a user agent offers the ability to generate an iCal for the subject's birthday, it will allow the user-agent to warn that the birthdays will not occur or to simply decline to do so; or to alternatively generate a differently-worded anniversary of birth iCal. *It allows user agents to calculate the subject's age at death (where Date of Birth, DoB, is known) In short, it offers additional semantic richness. EVIDENCE There are a plethora of DoDs published on the web; not least in almost every Wikipedia biography for a dead person; Google finds about 1,520,000 for died on alo . NAMING The hCard DoB property is called bday. A DoD property could therefore be called dday, or perhaps dod, death or died. BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY *The addition of DoD would be fully backwards- compatible. Parsers (and publishers) may simply ignore it. Parsers which recognise it would simply ignore it when exporting vCards. *Its use would require a small change to the existing boilerplate wording: using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL) properties and values in semantic XHTML. to something like: using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL) properties and values, with additional properties, in semantic XHTML. or using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426 [URL]) properties and values, with an additional property for date of death, in semantic XHTML. (A future modification of vCard may choose to implement a matching DoD field; however, this is outside the control of the microformats community, and vCard development appears to be stagnant. ) *All current hCard documentation would remain valid, even before being updated. PROPERTIES The field's properties should be identical to those for bday. REQUEST FOR COMMENTS Is there any reason why DoD should not be included in hCard? Are there any preferences for the property name? Are there any preferences for the boilerplate wording? NEXT STEPS As soon as a property-name is agreed, I propose to ask Mike Kaply to kindly parse an hCard DoD field in Operator, and to seek agreement on Wikipedia-EN to include DoD in biographical infobox templates (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_biography, of which there are already over 5,000 deployments alone). Parser authors may then wish to write code to calculate a subject's age at death (and, indeed, the age of living subjects); and to export anniversary of birth iCals (and, indeed, iCals for birthdays for living people) -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 6/27/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/ thanks for the link, it has been on and off the radar for a good 6 months now: The thread started back in september 2006 http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-September/005485.html It's a pity, then, that any mention of such things is quickly excised from the 'wiki'; it would be far easier to keep track of them if there was a page listing them. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On Wed, June 27, 2007 3:43 pm, David Janes wrote: On 6/27/07, John Beales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/ -- Andy Mabbett Why are they set up on their own, did we poo-poo the concept at microformats.org or something? No, they just decided to do their own thing and use the microformats name. I brought this up a few months ago actually Is there actually any substance there yet? I had a quick glance around, but I couldn't see anything resembling even a draft spec, so I presume they're still at the brainstorming/wishlists state. Is that the case, or did I overlook something? Angus ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Date of Death in hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Beales [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I'm kind of late commenting, but perhaps, because of its similarity to the existing bday we should use dday? I discovered that that was ruled out, in earlier discussion, not least because of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On 6/27/07, Angus McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, June 27, 2007 3:43 pm, David Janes wrote: On 6/27/07, John Beales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/ -- Andy Mabbett Why are they set up on their own, did we poo-poo the concept at microformats.org or something? No, they just decided to do their own thing and use the microformats name. I brought this up a few months ago actually Is there actually any substance there yet? I had a quick glance around, but I couldn't see anything resembling even a draft spec, so I presume they're still at the brainstorming/wishlists state. Is that the case, or did I overlook something? Here's their announcement from the Social Media mailing list. I've actually communicated with these guys and they're fairly reasonable, but their intention is to do their own thing and call it a microformat. --- As Chris announced on SocialMediaRelease.org, I'm going to be helping out with completing the hRelease recommendation and getting the working group going again. My plan is to focus on the low-hanging fruit first and make progress on the core elements of hRelease. The working group will focus primarily on technical aspects of hRelease. Don't worry, though, the final recommendation will not be decided by a bunch of gearheads. Recommendations will be presented to this group for review and discussion. I'd like to setup a conference call for the working group in early August and then have monthly calls thereafter. If you are interested in joining the working group, you can email me privately at swhitley[at]whitleymedia.com. You do not need to be a technical guru to join this group, but I would recommend a basic understanding of HTML. Representatives from the wire services are encouraged to participate. Briefly, this is how I intend to utilize our online resources: hRelease Wiki (http://www.socialtext.net/hRelease) - This is where ideas, drafts, and detailed information will be posted. Working Group Discussion Group - A separate discussion group will be established for the working group. The working group will discuss details of the hRelease specification. New Media Release Group (this group) - Recommendations will be presented to this group. There will be an opportunity to comment on the recommendations and we will discuss necessary modifications and/or additions. I appreciate the opportunity to work on this project and look forward to your feedback as we complete the development of our new hRelease Microformat. Shannon Whitley Whitley Media --- -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On Jun 27, 2007, at 2:14 PM, David Janes wrote: I've actually communicated with these guys and they're fairly reasonable, but their intention is to do their own thing and call it a microformat. It looks like they may need to make that a little more clear to their own community to prevent confusion. I was just reading this page [1], which says hRelease has not yet made it to ‘draft’ status yet) with draft linked to the microformats wiki list of drafts, suggesting hRelease will one day be in that list. If they're not following the microformats process, that's never going to happen. It's not really our concern until people start coming here and asking questions about hRelease, but if you're talking to them you might want to mention this. As the microformats community doesn't have any answers to questions about hRelease, it would probably be in everyone's interest to avoid suggestions that we do. [1] http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt- release/ -- Scott Reynen, Web Developer 303-717-1543 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hRelease
On Jun 27, 2007, at 2:14 PM, David Janes wrote: I've actually communicated with these guys and they're fairly reasonable, but their intention is to do their own thing and call it a microformat. It looks like they may need to make that a little more clear to their own community to prevent confusion. I was just reading this page [1], which says hRelease has not yet made it to ‘draft’ status yet) with draft linked to the microformats wiki list of drafts, suggesting hRelease will one day be in that list. If they're not following the microformats process, that's never going to happen. It's not really our concern until people start coming here and asking questions about hRelease, but if you're talking to them you might want to mention this. As the microformats community doesn't have any answers to questions about hRelease, it would probably be in everyone's interest to avoid suggestions to that effect. [1] http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt- release/ Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Hello Thom, On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user facing site showing what you can do with these things. We could call it: Intelligent Web Pages or Smart Web Pages Web pages that are intelligent enough or smart enough to do stuff :-) -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ All the Vlogging News on One Page http://vlograzor.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
I definitely agree that the microformats community should consider a user facing name. Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the user as Web Feeds and microsummaries are exposed to the user as Live Bookmarks, microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need a name. What does everyone think it should be called? -Alex On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:04 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello Thom, On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user facing site showing what you can do with these things. We could call it: Intelligent Web Pages or Smart Web Pages Web pages that are intelligent enough or smart enough to do stuff :-) -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ All the Vlogging News on One Page http://vlograzor.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Yeah, exactly that kind of thing. A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP, maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI stuff it did was really good. IntelliTags Infolets Infobits Open Smart Tags? ;-) Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello Thom, On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user facing site showing what you can do with these things. We could call it: Intelligent Web Pages or Smart Web Pages Web pages that are intelligent enough or smart enough to do stuff :-) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
From: Alex Faaborg [EMAIL PROTECTED] I definitely agree that the microformats community should consider a user facing name. Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the user as Web Feeds and microsummaries are exposed to the user as Live Bookmarks, microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need a name. What does everyone think it should be called? To take an idea from Charles, I think that IntelliSmart is a good description of them. IntelliSmart Web Pages. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft received when they considered including the feature in IE6. There are obviously some very important distinctions between the two systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site creators place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting them). But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some initial confusion if the user facing name is similar. -Alex On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Thom Shannon wrote: Yeah, exactly that kind of thing. A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP, maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI stuff it did was really good. IntelliTags Infolets Infobits Open Smart Tags? ;-) Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello Thom, On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user facing site showing what you can do with these things. We could call it: Intelligent Web Pages or Smart Web Pages Web pages that are intelligent enough or smart enough to do stuff :-) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
From: Alex Faaborg [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft received when they considered including the feature in IE6. There are obviously some very important distinctions between the two systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site creators place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting them). But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some initial confusion if the user facing name is similar. While reflecting on this over lunch I came to similar conclusions. Perhaps we should use terms that we already have and know, and call the pages Semantically Rich, or something. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is. I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats, like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality, these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before. The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a nice spec, had a more generically used acronym. As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is talking to developers and advanced content producers. Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly. It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about technology and magic? T ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Oh and non-experts/non-developers don't talk about data (or content,
really), they talk about:
addresses
photos
blog posts (now)
videos
events
reviews
resumes
etc.
SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).
T
On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.
As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.
Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.
It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?
T
--
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
co-founder CMO
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
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microformats-discuss mailing list
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
From: Tara Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly. This means that the tools people use to create their web pages will need to provide a mechanism for them to add microformat data to their content, without necessarily having to dig into the code. So, first steps. Select an area of text to be used as an hCard and click an hCard button When an hCard area of text is defined, buttons become available to define different sections Select text to be the persons name and click a name button - if the name appears to be parsable as a fn, ask if the given name is one of a series of example formats - if the name isn't a correct format, let them pick and choose which parts are what Select phone number and click a phone number button - if an appropriate type is not included with the selected phone number, but one is nearby, ask if that should be included as the type It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about technology and magic? it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - usability for the masses. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Paul Wilkins wrote: From: Tara Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about technology and magic? it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - usability for the masses. The Clark quote is any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line recently: if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently advanced. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
For me, the question is what does the non-developer end-user perceive when they see the SmartData icon? How does that relate to their world? It isn't about the formatting or the HTML tags... Those are things that end-users don't really care about or even conceptuallize. In case anyone is curious what is going on with microformat UI design for Firefox 3, we are considering presenting microformatted content to the user with an icon in the location bar, similar to RSS (and possibly RSS and microformats will be grouped into a more generic send data to application icon, which was brought up in a different thread on microformats-discuss): http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070204-detectionUI/ locationBarMenu.jpg_large.jpg Additionally, when the user hovers the mouse over an area of the page that contains microformatted content, we will change the cursor to display the associated application (or a generic icon if no default has been selected): http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070426-detectionUI2/ cursorChange.jpg The mouse cursor change will also hopefully apply to file types and protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.) I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats, like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality, these are pretty descriptive. In our designs we avoid showing the user the microformat name, and focus on the associated application. Instead of seeing geo or adr the user will only see Google Earth (or a generic picture of a globe if they haven't chosen an application yet, probably on microformat green). Due to privacy concerns the browser can't expose the user's default applications to Web sites, so I think Web developers should be encouraged to design based on actions, not data. A green button that says Send to Calendar is considerably more useable than a green button that says hCal (actually these are often red for some reason, http://microformats.org/wiki/icons). Also, I personally think Web designers should be encouraged to use images instead of acronyms. In addition to being more descriptive, they localize better. Here are some I've been showing in various talks: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20061213-fundamentalTypes/ fundamentalTypesStatic.jpg_large.jpg -Alex On Jun 27, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote: From: Tara Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly. This means that the tools people use to create their web pages will need to provide a mechanism for them to add microformat data to their content, without necessarily having to dig into the code. So, first steps. Select an area of text to be used as an hCard and click an hCard button When an hCard area of text is defined, buttons become available to define different sections Select text to be the persons name and click a name button - if the name appears to be parsable as a fn, ask if the given name is one of a series of example formats - if the name isn't a correct format, let them pick and choose which parts are what Select phone number and click a phone number button - if an appropriate type is not included with the selected phone number, but one is nearby, ask if that should be included as the type It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about technology and magic? it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - usability for the masses. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP, maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI stuff it did was really good. I haven't seen the Smart Tags stuff (where do I find it?)... could it be somehow adapted for use with microformats? ... or would a tool to convert between them be useful? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
