Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Daniel Barowy wrote: > On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, J.C. Roberts wrote: > > > > Any chance you know the brand name of the upgraded processor? > > > > It's a FastMac. 1.2 GHz G4. I _think_ the model # is APP-5582. > FastMac seems to have removed most of the information for this > upgrade from their website. > > > As for the missing serial (thanks Nick), I tracked down one vendor > > who made the add-on connector used to enable the on-board serial. > > It was generally called a "gPort" (also "g3Port" and "g4Port") and > > was made by a company called Griffin Technologies. From my reading, > > it seems there were a few different versions of the add-on > > connector for the various Apple systems. I *think* some of them > > replace the internal modem (RJ11). > > Interesting, thanks for the info. Did you also happen to find out > where to actually get one of these? > Dan, The message below from Brynet was not threaded, so I'm not sure if you missed it but it has a cool link! > Hey, > > There is an interesting guide related to some guys effort at turning > his old Mac into an OpenBSD router/firewall, he mentions the G4Port, > so it may be useful. > > http://nuxx.net/wiki/Trashwall#G4Port > > That entire page is an interesting read, but that's just me.. I like > stuff like that. > > -Brynet As for buying one of these "gPort" devices, finding them for sale is not easy, and as Nick mentioned, they're not cheap (usually priced around $50 USD or so). Many of the places that sold them are currently out of stock, but it seems I found one company that has them: http://www.galaxyhp.com/Input/input_serial.html You should read the text on the page to determine if your G4 Sawtooth is an "early G4" or not. -- J.C. Roberts
Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, J.C. Roberts wrote: Any chance you know the brand name of the upgraded processor? It's a FastMac. 1.2 GHz G4. I _think_ the model # is APP-5582. FastMac seems to have removed most of the information for this upgrade from their website. As for the missing serial (thanks Nick), I tracked down one vendor who made the add-on connector used to enable the on-board serial. It was generally called a "gPort" (also "g3Port" and "g4Port") and was made by a company called Griffin Technologies. From my reading, it seems there were a few different versions of the add-on connector for the various Apple systems. I *think* some of them replace the internal modem (RJ11). Interesting, thanks for the info. Did you also happen to find out where to actually get one of these?
Re: Install freezes on macppc
Hey, There is an interesting guide related to some guys effort at turning his old Mac into an OpenBSD router/firewall, he mentions the G4Port, so it may be useful. http://nuxx.net/wiki/Trashwall#G4Port That entire page is an interesting read, but that's just me.. I like stuff like that. -Brynet
Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:52:59 -0400 Daniel Barowy wrote: > Paul M wrote: > > > > I was bitten by a similar issue on i386 hardware - freezes during > > install, or shortly thereafter. > > After too many hours bashing on it, I reinstalled the original > > windows disk, and it worked perfectly. I stress tested it for > > several days without a single (aparent) problem, but swapping out > > the disk and attempting a reinstall of 4.3, it would freeze again > > every time. Turned out to be bad RAM. > OK, I finally sat down today and fiddled with this some more. > > First, I pulled all of the RAM, plugged in 1 x 256 MB SIMM, cleared > the PRAM for good measure, and then ran the installer again. It froze > as before. > > Next, I pulled the upgraded processor, dropped in a stock 350 MHz > Apple processor, cleared the PRAM again, and then ran the installer > again. This time, the installer ran all the way through, the machine > booted without any issues, and seemed to run fine through all the > normal tasks I gave it to do (network transfers, disk formatting, > installing a package, etc). > > Then I shut the machine down and put the original 2GB memory back in, > cleared PRAM, and started up again. No issues. > > Then I shut down and put the upgraded processor back in, cleared > PRAM, and booted again. Within a couple minutes, the machine froze > again. I was able to reproduce this several times. So it looks like > the processor is the culprit (bummer). > > Interestingly, though, the line from the dmesg that Nick pointed out, > "mem at mainbus0 not configured", did not appear in the installed > copy of OpenBSD regardless of which processor or how much memory was > in the machine. That only showed up when I booted from the CD. > > Also, as a side note-- this machine does not have a serial port. At > least, none that I am aware of. There's nothing remotely serial-like > (not counting USB, that is) on the back panel. Just USB, IEEE1394a, > RJ-45, RJ-11, and audio. Maybe there's some kind of header on the > motherboard, but I think I'm done messing around with this machine > for today. > > Dan Thanks Dan for the info. The processor issue is good to know. Any chance you know the brand name of the upgraded processor? It seems there were a few companies making after-market CPU upgrades for various Apple systems (PowerLogix, OWC, Sonnet). Some used IBM chips while others used Motorola chips. Users have reported varying degrees of success/failure with the various upgrades. The biggest collection of user reports I've found is here: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/g4articles.html As for the missing serial (thanks Nick), I tracked down one vendor who made the add-on connector used to enable the on-board serial. It was generally called a "gPort" (also "g3Port" and "g4Port") and was made by a company called Griffin Technologies. From my reading, it seems there were a few different versions of the add-on connector for the various Apple systems. I *think* some of them replace the internal modem (RJ11). Even if it's not actually usable on the boards destined for end users (i.e. the "production run" of manufacturing) due to missing chips, components or connectors, the vast majority of system-like electronics designs actually have either serial or JTAG hidden someplace on the circuit board. The reason why the functionality "exists" is so the engineers can debug the hardware, but often on production runs they strip off the "unnecessary" components to save money. If I'm correctly second guessing the practices at Apple when these systems were built, instead of having "unstuffed" (missing) components on production boards, they just created an add-in card (like the "gPort") to enable the serial interface. -- J.C. Roberts
Re: Install freezes on macppc
Paul M wrote: I was bitten by a similar issue on i386 hardware - freezes during install, or shortly thereafter. After too many hours bashing on it, I reinstalled the original windows disk, and it worked perfectly. I stress tested it for several days without a single (aparent) problem, but swapping out the disk and attempting a reinstall of 4.3, it would freeze again every time. Turned out to be bad RAM. OK, I finally sat down today and fiddled with this some more. First, I pulled all of the RAM, plugged in 1 x 256 MB SIMM, cleared the PRAM for good measure, and then ran the installer again. It froze as before. Next, I pulled the upgraded processor, dropped in a stock 350 MHz Apple processor, cleared the PRAM again, and then ran the installer again. This time, the installer ran all the way through, the machine booted without any issues, and seemed to run fine through all the normal tasks I gave it to do (network transfers, disk formatting, installing a package, etc). Then I shut the machine down and put the original 2GB memory back in, cleared PRAM, and started up again. No issues. Then I shut down and put the upgraded processor back in, cleared PRAM, and booted again. Within a couple minutes, the machine froze again. I was able to reproduce this several times. So it looks like the processor is the culprit (bummer). Interestingly, though, the line from the dmesg that Nick pointed out, "mem at mainbus0 not configured", did not appear in the installed copy of OpenBSD regardless of which processor or how much memory was in the machine. That only showed up when I booted from the CD. Also, as a side note-- this machine does not have a serial port. At least, none that I am aware of. There's nothing remotely serial-like (not counting USB, that is) on the back panel. Just USB, IEEE1394a, RJ-45, RJ-11, and audio. Maybe there's some kind of header on the motherboard, but I think I'm done messing around with this machine for today. Dan
Re: Install freezes on macppc
For less than $3 you can get old usb-r232 mobile phone data cables that don't include a level shifter so they're compatible with TTL serial ports directly. You just need to guess the pinouts. It's somewhat dumb to first shift levels from TTL to real RS232 and then have them shifted again in the USB serial converter, which you usually need to use if your other computer is a laptop. I've used loads of said data cables to interface microcontrollers etc. They're usually cheaper than a level shifter and DE-9 jack, and often the computers I want to interface with don't have real RS-232 ports anyway. -- Jussi Peltola
Re: Install freezes on macppc
J.C. Roberts wrote: ... > I've got no clue what kind of serial connector is used on your G4 > Sawtooth, but if it uses MiniDIN-8F, you can easily find a converter to > DE-9. Run a null-modem cable between the G4 and your x86. well..here's another "feature" of the newer MacPPC systems: no serial port. Actually, in at least some (most?) the hardware exists inside the machine, intended for a (special) modem, but doesn't have the line drivers needed for real RS232. However, for a lot more than the $3 it would have cost Apple to put the serial port on the back of the machine, you CAN buy a doo-hickey which provides line drivers and a connection to the outside world. Baring that, however...no serial. Nick.
Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:40:22 -0400 Daniel Barowy wrote: > >> umass0 at uhub0 port 1 configuration 1 interface 0 "Memorex > >> Flashdrive 303B" rev 2.00/1.10 addr 2 > >> umass0: using SCSI over Bulk-Only > >> scsibus1 at umass0: 2 targets, initiator 0 > >> sd0 at scsibus1 targ 1 lun 0: > >> SCSI0 0/direct removable > >> sd0: 122MB, 15 cyl, 255 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sec, 251776 sec > >> total > > > > um. I'd remove this until you figure out your issue... > > > > > Actually-- this was here so that I could dump the dmesg. I wanted to > try to do it quickly before the machine froze again. So no, it does > not appear to be a USB issue-- I did do that. Serial is your best friend! --Yes, your friend does have a habit of picking fights when he's drunk, but none the less, he's still your best friend, and he will help you out of most bad situations. On the G3 Beige I have here, there are two serial ports, albeit one is marked with a "phone" icon (TTYA), and the other is marked with a "printer" icon (TTYB). The serial ports use a MiniDIN-8F connector, rather than the DE-9 (mistakenly called "DB-9") connector more typically seen on x86 systems. I've got no clue what kind of serial connector is used on your G4 Sawtooth, but if it uses MiniDIN-8F, you can easily find a converter to DE-9. Run a null-modem cable between the G4 and your x86. On your x86 box just use cu(1): $ sudo cu -l /dev/tty00 -s 38400 Boot into OpenFirmware. Cmd-Opt-O-F > setenv auto-boot? false > setenv output-device ttya > setenv input-device ttya > reset-all If you need to go back to the original values (i.e. get your apple keyboard and display working again), just run `printenv` to see what they were (usually "display" and "kbd"). -- J.C. Roberts
Re: Install freezes on macppc
Hi Nick, Thanks for looking at this... Nick Holland wrote: Keep in mind the Macs are basically closed, secretive hardware, supported by a closed, secretive OS provided by the same vendor...so they can stick workarounds in for odd hardware quirks that no one else knows about (and they do have some odd hardware quirks...like the inaccessible, incomplete gem(4) found on one of my machines...that apparently was replaced by an on-board dc(4)...???) I am well aware of this-- we have about two dozen OpenBSD machines running on i386 and amd64. They run great, and when we have issues, they're usually very easy to track down. However, it pains me to have this machine sitting around doing nothing (our designers now turn their noses up at these machines), so I thought I'd poke around with it again. May not be worth it, but we'll see! mainbus0 at root: model PowerMac3,1 cpu0 at mainbus0: 7455 (Revision 0x303): 1200 MHz: 256KB L2 cache, 2MB L3 cache mem at mainbus0 not configured That doesn't look good... and not like my otherwise somewhat similar machine: This was my next step after JCR's suggestions. The trick is to track down the old processor. I know it's around here somewhere... umass0 at uhub0 port 1 configuration 1 interface 0 "Memorex Flashdrive 303B" rev 2.00/1.10 addr 2 umass0: using SCSI over Bulk-Only scsibus1 at umass0: 2 targets, initiator 0 sd0 at scsibus1 targ 1 lun 0: SCSI0 0/direct removable sd0: 122MB, 15 cyl, 255 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sec, 251776 sec total um. I'd remove this until you figure out your issue... Actually-- this was here so that I could dump the dmesg. I wanted to try to do it quickly before the machine froze again. So no, it does not appear to be a USB issue-- I did do that. Another data point-- I quickly installed Linux (Ubuntu) on this machine to see if anything similar popped it. Like the MacOS, it seems to run fine. JCR suggested that I try NetBSD, so if the processor swap doesn't work, I'll try that as well. Many thanks everyone, Dan
Re: Install freezes on macppc
Daniel Barowy wrote: > Hello everyone, > >A little searching on the lists and Google don't reveal anyone else > having this problem, so I thought I'd ask for help. I originally tried > installing 4.3 on this machine awhile back, and when I ran into this > problem, I had other things to do, so I never followed up on it. Now that > I have my shiny 4.4 CD, I thought I'd give it a try again, alas, I'm still > having the same problem. > >In short, the machine freezes at some point during the install process. > It does not respond to any keypresses. It always gets past OpenFirmware > and the OpenBSD boot prompt. I am usually able to start the installer. > But then, at some arbitrary point, it hangs. Sometimes this is during the > boot process; sometimes this is while I'm in the middle of typing > something; sometimes it is while the installer sets up the disks. As I > mentioned before, this happens with both 4.3 and 4.4. > >Oh-- and I've tried multiple hard disks, and I even tried plugging in a > Sonnet PCI IDE controller, in case there was something broken with the > integrated one. > >This machine is a standard Sawtooth G4, except that it has a different > CD-ROM drive than the original, and the processor has been upgraded. You > can see that in the dmesg below. Danger, Will Robinson... I looked at a link you provided later in this thread about the "sawtooth G4" systems, and thought, "hey, that looks familiar, but NOT like my 1+GHz macppc, but more like my 500MHz macppc...then went back and saw your "processor has been upgraded" comment. Keep in mind the Macs are basically closed, secretive hardware, supported by a closed, secretive OS provided by the same vendor...so they can stick workarounds in for odd hardware quirks that no one else knows about (and they do have some odd hardware quirks...like the inaccessible, incomplete gem(4) found on one of my machines...that apparently was replaced by an on-board dc(4)...???) It is entirely possible you are the only person who has a 1.2GHz proc upgrade in their 400-500MHz MacPPC attempting to run OpenBSD. And, it is entirely possible that THAT combination doesn't work for some reason (and I'd bet a US quarter that it is due to a HW bug the OS is expected to work around). Your machine is very similar to one of mine, which works pretty well, so I'm looking at the differences..and that one leaps out at me. Few other notes below: >I just reinstalled the MacOS on the machine (10.5), and that runs OK. > I haven't tried any other OSes, but I suppose I could. > >Anyway, here's my dmesg. Anyone have any suggestions, or things I could > try to get some kind of debug info back? > > [ using 245420 bytes of bsd ELF symbol table ] > console out [ATY,Pheonix_A]console in [keyboard] , using USB > using parent ATY,PheonixParent:: memaddr 9800 size 800, : consaddr > 9c008000, : ioaddr 9002, size 2: memtag 8000, iotag 8000: width > 1280 linebytes 1280 height 1024 depth 8 > Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > Copyright (c) 1995-2008 OpenBSD. All rights reserved. > http://www.OpenBSD.org > > OpenBSD 4.4 (RAMDISK) #1544: Mon Aug 11 13:51:46 MDT 2008 > dera...@macppc.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/macppc/compile/RAMDISK > real mem = 2147483648 (2048MB) > avail mem = 2078171136 (1981MB) Great Gobbs of Memory, Batchman! um. just for giggles, might want to knock that way down... > mainbus0 at root: model PowerMac3,1 > cpu0 at mainbus0: 7455 (Revision 0x303): 1200 MHz: 256KB L2 cache, 2MB L3 > cache > mem at mainbus0 not configured That doesn't look good... and not like my otherwise somewhat similar machine: OpenBSD 4.4-current (GENERIC) #2: Wed Jan 28 22:41:31 EST 2009 n...@ftp.in.nickh.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/macppc/compile/GENERIC real mem = 536870912 (512MB) avail mem = 509669376 (486MB) mainbus0 at root: model PowerMac3,3 cpu0 at mainbus0: 7400 (Revision 0x209): 500 MHz: 1MB backside cache mem0 at mainbus0 spdmem0 at mem0: 512MB SDRAM ECC PC100CL2 memc0 at mainbus0: uni-n (yep, need to upgrade it) (the memory is kinda odd, but I had it and it worked in this machine and not much else...so there it is...) > memc0 at mainbus0: uni-n > kiic0 at memc0 offset 0xf8001000 > mpcpcibr0 at mainbus0 pci: uni-north, Revision 0xff > pci0 at mpcpcibr0 bus 0 > pchb0 at pci0 dev 11 function 0 "Apple Uni-N AGP" rev 0x00 > vgafb0 at pci0 dev 16 function 0 "ATI Radeon 9000" rev 0x01, mmio > wsdisplay0 at vgafb0 mux 1: console (std, vt100 emulation) > mpcpcibr1 at mainbus0 pci: uni-north, Revision 0xff > pci1 at mpcpcibr1 bus 0 > pchb1 at pci1 dev 11 function 0 "Apple Uni-N" rev 0x00 > ppb0 at pci1 dev 13 function 0 "DEC 21154 PCI-PCI" rev 0x05 > pci2 at ppb0 bus 1 > macobio0 at pci2 dev 7 function 0 "Apple Keylargo" rev 0x02 > openpic0 at macobio0 offset 0x4: version 0x4614 little endian > macgpio0 at macobio0 offset 0x50 > ma
Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Daniel Barowy wrote: > > Needless to say, getting an operating system to play nice with > > firmware that is in an unknown patch state is a major pain in the > > ass. The first thing you should try is getting the OpenBSD > > 4.5-current ISO since your issue may have been fixed since > > 4.4-Release was completed in Sep 08. > >I also downloaded this and booted from it. Same problem-- this > time it froze while setting up the disk, so it seems like we're still > in the same boat. BTW, here's more information on the machine: > >http://lowendmac.com/ppc/sawtooth-power-mac-g4-agp.html > >Any other suggestions? Are there any boot-time options that I > could try? As far as I've read in OpenBSD INSTALL.macppc (mandatory reading) and on the NetBSD website/docs, the suggested firmware options such as load-base and similar are geared towards just getting the kernel to boot properly. You are already past this hurdle. With the information provided, I cannot guess the reason why you're having problems with disk access, but at least the problem is fairly consistent. I'm curious if you've searched the archives of the p...@openbsd mailing list for similar issues? It would be a better list for this topic. One of the things you could try is seeing if you can get NetBSD running on the machine. My thinking is if you have an unknown hardware problem (failing disk or similar), NetBSD will most likely have similar failures. On the other hand, if NetBSD works, then we know we have a issue in OpenBSD (driver?, geometry?, flux-capacitor?, ...). -- J.C. Roberts
Re: Install freezes on macppc
Hi J.C., Thanks for the post... if any, patches were stored in your NVRAM. The only way to get rid of the patches is by doing a "Parameter RAM" (PRAM) reset via Opt-Cmd-P-R on boot. Booting into MacOS is known to re-patch the firmware, but I'm I did a PRAM reset, and indeed, the boot console looked different. It was more like the blocky, low-res console that you see on i386 instead of the hi-res one I saw before, so your procedure at least cleared out the display size setting. However, booting and installing from the 4.4-RELEASE CD did not change anything. It still freezes part-way through the install. Needless to say, getting an operating system to play nice with firmware that is in an unknown patch state is a major pain in the ass. The first thing you should try is getting the OpenBSD 4.5-current ISO since your issue may have been fixed since 4.4-Release was completed in Sep 08. I also downloaded this and booted from it. Same problem-- this time it froze while setting up the disk, so it seems like we're still in the same boat. BTW, here's more information on the machine: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/sawtooth-power-mac-g4-agp.html Any other suggestions? Are there any boot-time options that I could try? Thanks again, Dan
Re: Install freezes on macppc
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Daniel Barowy wrote: >I just reinstalled the MacOS on the machine (10.5), and that runs > OK. I haven't tried any other OSes, but I suppose I could. > >Anyway, here's my dmesg. Anyone have any suggestions, or things I > could try to get some kind of debug info back? As time allows I've recently been working on getting OpenBSD running on an (unsupported) PowerMacintosh G3 Beige in spite of it's infamously buggy firmware. I am not real familiar with apple product names and nicknames, so your description of "G4 Sawtooth" doesn't mentally register. None the less, it is still one of the older "new-world" macs (i.e. "new-world" == G4 or better). The fact you've had MacOS 10.5 on there means you've had the Apple BootX (i.e. the BootX part of Darwin, not the "BootX" of linux) do it's firmware patching magic to your NVRAM. Yes, OpenFirmware can be patched and this is done by saving the patches (written in Forth) into the NVRAM of the system. There are two ways that Apple does it's magic firmware patching; (1) using the BootX part of Darwin, and (2) an application for MacOS 9.x and earlier called "System Disk." Swapping hard drives or disk controllers would have no effect on what, if any, patches were stored in your NVRAM. The only way to get rid of the patches is by doing a "Parameter RAM" (PRAM) reset via Opt-Cmd-P-R on boot. Booting into MacOS is known to re-patch the firmware, but I'm unsure of the exact MacOS versions that do this. Needless to say, getting an operating system to play nice with firmware that is in an unknown patch state is a major pain in the ass. The first thing you should try is getting the OpenBSD 4.5-current ISO since your issue may have been fixed since 4.4-Release was completed in Sep 08. # ftp ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/macppc/install45.iso # cdio tao install45.iso If you're unable to install with the current ISO, you can try resetting your PRAM via Opt-Cmd-P-R and see if you have any better luck with the mystery firmware patches removed. Since you're OpenFirmware has a working ELF loader, it's at least version 3.0 or better. If your system has OpenFirmware version 3.0 you need to be very careful when messing with the firmware settings. Due a bug in these systems, it is possible to actually over-write the firmware itself, resulting in a serious mess. -- J.C. Roberts
