re: obligatory leaving letter

[leo_tck]

Haai,

I just read the responses of Ingo & Espie, among others. Yes, just now,
in the archives, since for some mysterious reason, they weren't cc'd to
me (despite that I clearly stated that I had left).

Y'know, I could go on a long rant again (I'm rather prone to them, ain't
I?), but I won't bother you with that. What I will bother you with is my
response to the two fellows named above (accompanied by a hearthy laugh):

You g{irl,uy,whatever}s are incorrigible. But that's kind of okay. You
see, well, since you didn't appear to get the hint before, I'll spell it
out to you: the reason I left really is that I don't want to be in the
way.

Keep up the good work everyone, really. Our goals may differ, our
methods may differ, our entire mindset may differ, but that's okay to
me, even if (going by Ingo & Espie's responses) it might not be to you.

Then there's the emerging "who got pissed off first and thus had the
right to be an ass" contest. I think I'll pass: my goal is not to
create (or sustain) drama. To the measure that I fail in that goal, I
apologize.

I hope this finally closes the matter of my departure.

Good day everyone,

Baai,

--zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!

what is UNIX about? (was: Re: obligatory leaving letter)

[leo_tck]

Since I don't want to be guilty of spreading unfounded information, I'll
still respond, if tersely, to Rod{erick,rigo}, who doesn't appear to
have cc'd me either.

I'll quote [0]:
> What we wanted to preserve was not just a good environment in which to
> do programming, but a system around which a fellowship could form. We
> knew from experience that the essence of communal computing, as
> supplied by remote-access, time-shared machines, is not just to type
> programs into a terminal instead of a keypunch, but to encourage close
> communication.

dmr also (somewhat awkwardly) read that up from his tty in a promotional
video once. Thinking about the atmosphere depicted in the video, perhaps
'fellowship' is a more appropriate term than 'family', indeed.

Not that Rod{erick,rigo} was that much off: he simply looked at it from
a different angle.

--zeurkous.

[0] https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html

-- 
Friggin' Machines!

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Robert Peichaer]

Well said, Ingo

-- 
-=[rpe]=-

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Charlie Eddy]

Can someone advise what occurred in NetBSD re this user?

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Marc Espie]

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 02:26:44AM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> Admittedly, if you look at the list of developers, it is impossible
> to deny that OpenBSD is not the most succcessful project ever with
> respect to inclusiveness.  

I had to do a double-take to grok that one.

EDOUBLENEGATIVEABUSE

You're usually clearer, Ingo :)

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Marc Espie]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 05:17:05PM -0600, Jay Williams wrote:
> As a new user to OpenBSD, who is trying to learn as much as I can, seeing a
> message like this is very disheartening. OpenBSD's security focus and passion
> for clean, minimal and secure code is something that the world definitely
> needs.

Don't feel like this, the guy is an ass who managed to piss of both the
NetBSD and the OpenBSD community.

It takes a special kind of talent to do that.

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Jay,

Jay Williams wrote on Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 05:17:05PM -0600:

> As a new user to OpenBSD, who is trying to learn as much as I can,
> seeing a message like this is very disheartening.

Please do not worry about this particular case.  The user who wrote
this message contributed almost nothing - a few very simple bug
reports at best - but caused several developers (myself included)
to waste time because they answered his mails.  Besides, he vastly
overestimated his own importance.

Yes, it did happen in the past that developers left for reasons that
were sad in various ways.  Some of them came back later.  Some of
them i still miss.

OpenBSD uses an extremely terse communication style.  That style
is useful to keep technical communication concise in a very small
group doing huge amounts of work (i'm one of the few developers who
are notorious for being wordy at times and blunt at others).  One
downside of this efficient style is that it will unavoidably seem
impolite to many cultural expectations, in particular in instances
where it comes together with people getting upset, and when it comes
together with the well-known effect that email communication usually
appears more aggressive than face-to-face comminucation, even when
that isn't intended.

The concise communication style also has the side effect of attracting
people to the list - not developers! - who misinterpret the terse
style as a license for being disrespectful.  That is not OK, mutual
respect is essential even in strong disagreement.

Admittedly, if you look at the list of developers, it is impossible
to deny that OpenBSD is not the most succcessful project ever with
respect to inclusiveness.  I think it would be good to do a bit
better in that respect, in particular since technical merit and
inclusiveness are in no way a hindrance to each other, but it is
well-known that improvement in that respect is with necessity a
very slow process in a project that, by its stated goals and unwritten
culture, has an exlusive focus on technical innovation and a general
consensus to avoid all formalities.

That said, i'm convinced that all developers try to judge contributions
solely by their technical merit, and without regard to the person
submitting them, and welcome contributions by everybody, which is
one of the necessary conditions to slowly improve inclusiveness.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Sterling Archer]

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:17 AM, Jay Williams  wrote:
> As a new user to OpenBSD, who is trying to learn as much as I can, seeing a
> message like this is very disheartening. OpenBSD's security focus and passion
> for clean, minimal and secure code is something that the world definitely
> needs.
>
> Despite the worldwide trend, especially here in the USA, I hope we can find
> ways to get along and work together toward common goals, rather than be 
> divided
> against ourselves.
>
> Best of luck on your new endeavor!
>
> --
> Jay Williams
>
>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 4:43 PM, leo_...@volny.cz wrote:
>>
>> Haai,
>>
>> I think it's about time I write this.
>>
>> I am De Zeurkous. I used the nick 'schaafuit' (originally devised for a
>> prank elsewhere) in an attempt not to let past preconceptions (for those
>> who don't know, I have a somewhat bad history with the NetBSD project)
>> rule the present. The story about using my bf's e-mail address is true,
>> however; the only act of deception was the assumption of another nick.
>>
>> Despite ongoing personal problems (which are not at all relevant here),
>> I extended my UNIX experience considerably since 2007 (the year of the
>> NetBSD trouble). Things have settled considerably for me since then, so
>> I suggest that we let the past be the past and focus on what has been 
>> happening recently.
>>
>> I admit to having some troll blood in my veins. However, I have been
>> here to contribute to OpenBSD discussion and have found myself genuinely
>> distraught the many times it descended into outright flamage. If that
>> makes me too soft material for OpenBSD, as Theo at least once implied,
>> well, so be it.
>>
>> Now that is out of the way, I can get to the point.
>>
>> In all honesty, I have come to the sad conclusion that the various BSD
>> projects, with their leaders being full of entitlement, don't really
>> appreciate what UNIX is all about (nevermind that gnu weenies are even
>> worse in this regard).
>>
>> As dmr often pointed out (though perhaps not quite in the terms that I
>> will use here), UNIX is about community. I'd even argue that early UNIX
>> sites were like families, anticipating each other's needs and building
>> upon individual strenghts to achieve something that was not just
>> technically adequate, but something to be proud of. Unfortunately, I can
>> no longer verify this with dmr, but I'd imagine that UNIX did not just
>> feel familiar, but like something shared and even homely.
>>
>> Unfortunately, UNIX development seems to have become profoundly
>> seperated from UNIX use. Whether related or not, it also appears to have
>> become a bare battle of egos, something that is quite alien to me, and
>> to UNIX itself as well.
>>
>> I chose OpenBSD because of its somewhat desirable technical properties,
>> and I had hoped to be able to contribute. Alas, I am forced to concede
>> that for me this is not possible, as I appear to have quite different
>> goals (and a very different mindset) from its principal contributors,
>> despite my profound appreciation for the project's focus on security.
>>
>> Now, by this point, you might suspect that I have some alternative in
>> mind, and possibly in development; this is indeed the case. You might
>> also suspect that I'm going to plug it here; however, I won't.
>>
>> Since I have no particular desire to be a disruptive force to anyone,
>> I will leave you folks to your project.
>>
>> And me to mine =)
>>
>> Best of luck and greetings,
>>
>> Baai,
>>
>>--zeurkous.
>>
>> P.S.: attached is a main(3) header file and manual page, as a little...
>> 'going-away present'.
>>
>> --
>> Friggin' Machines!
>

I know I'm just adding to the fucking noise right now, but I for one
am just glad a trollish person's gone and there will be less noise
(hopefully) from now on. Until the next one shows up...

-- 
:wq!

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Jay Williams]

As a new user to OpenBSD, who is trying to learn as much as I can, seeing a
message like this is very disheartening. OpenBSD's security focus and passion
for clean, minimal and secure code is something that the world definitely
needs.

Despite the worldwide trend, especially here in the USA, I hope we can find
ways to get along and work together toward common goals, rather than be divided
against ourselves.

Best of luck on your new endeavor!

-- 
Jay Williams

> On Nov 28, 2017, at 4:43 PM, leo_...@volny.cz wrote:
> 
> Haai,
> 
> I think it's about time I write this.
> 
> I am De Zeurkous. I used the nick 'schaafuit' (originally devised for a
> prank elsewhere) in an attempt not to let past preconceptions (for those
> who don't know, I have a somewhat bad history with the NetBSD project)
> rule the present. The story about using my bf's e-mail address is true,
> however; the only act of deception was the assumption of another nick.
> 
> Despite ongoing personal problems (which are not at all relevant here),
> I extended my UNIX experience considerably since 2007 (the year of the
> NetBSD trouble). Things have settled considerably for me since then, so
> I suggest that we let the past be the past and focus on what has been 
> happening recently.
> 
> I admit to having some troll blood in my veins. However, I have been
> here to contribute to OpenBSD discussion and have found myself genuinely
> distraught the many times it descended into outright flamage. If that
> makes me too soft material for OpenBSD, as Theo at least once implied,
> well, so be it.
> 
> Now that is out of the way, I can get to the point.
> 
> In all honesty, I have come to the sad conclusion that the various BSD
> projects, with their leaders being full of entitlement, don't really
> appreciate what UNIX is all about (nevermind that gnu weenies are even
> worse in this regard).
> 
> As dmr often pointed out (though perhaps not quite in the terms that I
> will use here), UNIX is about community. I'd even argue that early UNIX
> sites were like families, anticipating each other's needs and building
> upon individual strenghts to achieve something that was not just
> technically adequate, but something to be proud of. Unfortunately, I can
> no longer verify this with dmr, but I'd imagine that UNIX did not just
> feel familiar, but like something shared and even homely.
> 
> Unfortunately, UNIX development seems to have become profoundly
> seperated from UNIX use. Whether related or not, it also appears to have
> become a bare battle of egos, something that is quite alien to me, and
> to UNIX itself as well.
> 
> I chose OpenBSD because of its somewhat desirable technical properties,
> and I had hoped to be able to contribute. Alas, I am forced to concede
> that for me this is not possible, as I appear to have quite different
> goals (and a very different mindset) from its principal contributors,
> despite my profound appreciation for the project's focus on security.
> 
> Now, by this point, you might suspect that I have some alternative in
> mind, and possibly in development; this is indeed the case. You might
> also suspect that I'm going to plug it here; however, I won't.
> 
> Since I have no particular desire to be a disruptive force to anyone,
> I will leave you folks to your project.
> 
> And me to mine =)
> 
> Best of luck and greetings,
> 
> Baai,
> 
>--zeurkous.
> 
> P.S.: attached is a main(3) header file and manual page, as a little...
> 'going-away present'.
> 
> -- 
> Friggin' Machines!

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Roderick]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017, leo_...@volny.cz wrote:


As dmr often pointed out (though perhaps not quite in the terms that I
will use here), UNIX is about community.


Or about simplicity? UNIX as the opposite to MULTICS?

And this is the impression I get when I read Ritchies and Thompson
paper "The Unix Time-Sharing System".

And even if it is not so simple, they were able to explain it so,
that one gets this impression. This is by the way my experience
on speches and lectures of best scientists.

This is why I like much more the answer of Otto Moerbeek than the one
of Theo, but it seems there was a background not known by everyone.



[...] as I appear to have quite different
goals (and a very different mindset) from its principal contributors,
despite my profound appreciation for the project's focus on security.


Well, there is not a lot of alternatives. You will have to create
the system that follows your goals.

Rodrigo.

Re: obligatory leaving letter

[Edgar Pettijohn]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 11:43:15PM +0100, leo_...@volny.cz wrote:
> Haai,
> 
> I think it's about time I write this.
> 
> I am De Zeurkous. I used the nick 'schaafuit' (originally devised for a
> prank elsewhere) in an attempt not to let past preconceptions (for those
> who don't know, I have a somewhat bad history with the NetBSD project)
> rule the present. The story about using my bf's e-mail address is true,
> however; the only act of deception was the assumption of another nick.
> 
> Despite ongoing personal problems (which are not at all relevant here),
> I extended my UNIX experience considerably since 2007 (the year of the
> NetBSD trouble). Things have settled considerably for me since then, so
> I suggest that we let the past be the past and focus on what has been
> happening recently.
> 
> I admit to having some troll blood in my veins. However, I have been
> here to contribute to OpenBSD discussion and have found myself genuinely
> distraught the many times it descended into outright flamage. If that
> makes me too soft material for OpenBSD, as Theo at least once implied,
> well, so be it.
> 
> Now that is out of the way, I can get to the point.
> 
> In all honesty, I have come to the sad conclusion that the various BSD
> projects, with their leaders being full of entitlement, don't really
> appreciate what UNIX is all about (nevermind that gnu weenies are even
> worse in this regard).
> 
> As dmr often pointed out (though perhaps not quite in the terms that I
> will use here), UNIX is about community. I'd even argue that early UNIX
> sites were like families, anticipating each other's needs and building
> upon individual strenghts to achieve something that was not just
> technically adequate, but something to be proud of. Unfortunately, I can
> no longer verify this with dmr, but I'd imagine that UNIX did not just
> feel familiar, but like something shared and even homely.
> 
> Unfortunately, UNIX development seems to have become profoundly
> seperated from UNIX use. Whether related or not, it also appears to have
> become a bare battle of egos, something that is quite alien to me, and
> to UNIX itself as well.
> 
> I chose OpenBSD because of its somewhat desirable technical properties,
> and I had hoped to be able to contribute. Alas, I am forced to concede
> that for me this is not possible, as I appear to have quite different
> goals (and a very different mindset) from its principal contributors,
> despite my profound appreciation for the project's focus on security.
> 
> Now, by this point, you might suspect that I have some alternative in
> mind, and possibly in development; this is indeed the case. You might
> also suspect that I'm going to plug it here; however, I won't.
> 
> Since I have no particular desire to be a disruptive force to anyone,
> I will leave you folks to your project.
> 
> And me to mine =)
> 
> Best of luck and greetings,
> 
> Baai,
> 
> --zeurkous.
> 
> P.S.: attached is a main(3) header file and manual page, as a little...
>  'going-away present'.
> 
> -- 
> Friggin' Machines!

--- main.3.orig Tue Nov 28 17:24:40 2017
+++ main.3  Tue Nov 28 17:25:40 2017
@@ -53,7 +53,7 @@
 .Nm
 routine normally returns
 .Dv 0
-on succes; otherwise, a different value is returned (but see
+on success; otherwise, a different value is returned (but see
 .Sx NOTES ,
 below).
 .Sh NOTES

obligatory leaving letter

[leo_tck]

Haai,

I think it's about time I write this.

I am De Zeurkous. I used the nick 'schaafuit' (originally devised for a
prank elsewhere) in an attempt not to let past preconceptions (for those
who don't know, I have a somewhat bad history with the NetBSD project)
rule the present. The story about using my bf's e-mail address is true,
however; the only act of deception was the assumption of another nick.

Despite ongoing personal problems (which are not at all relevant here),
I extended my UNIX experience considerably since 2007 (the year of the
NetBSD trouble). Things have settled considerably for me since then, so
I suggest that we let the past be the past and focus on what has been 
happening recently.


I admit to having some troll blood in my veins. However, I have been
here to contribute to OpenBSD discussion and have found myself genuinely
distraught the many times it descended into outright flamage. If that
makes me too soft material for OpenBSD, as Theo at least once implied,
well, so be it.

Now that is out of the way, I can get to the point.

In all honesty, I have come to the sad conclusion that the various BSD
projects, with their leaders being full of entitlement, don't really
appreciate what UNIX is all about (nevermind that gnu weenies are even
worse in this regard).

As dmr often pointed out (though perhaps not quite in the terms that I
will use here), UNIX is about community. I'd even argue that early UNIX
sites were like families, anticipating each other's needs and building
upon individual strenghts to achieve something that was not just
technically adequate, but something to be proud of. Unfortunately, I can
no longer verify this with dmr, but I'd imagine that UNIX did not just
feel familiar, but like something shared and even homely.

Unfortunately, UNIX development seems to have become profoundly
seperated from UNIX use. Whether related or not, it also appears to have
become a bare battle of egos, something that is quite alien to me, and
to UNIX itself as well.

I chose OpenBSD because of its somewhat desirable technical properties,
and I had hoped to be able to contribute. Alas, I am forced to concede
that for me this is not possible, as I appear to have quite different
goals (and a very different mindset) from its principal contributors,
despite my profound appreciation for the project's focus on security.

Now, by this point, you might suspect that I have some alternative in
mind, and possibly in development; this is indeed the case. You might
also suspect that I'm going to plug it here; however, I won't.

Since I have no particular desire to be a disruptive force to anyone,
I will leave you folks to your project.

And me to mine =)

Best of luck and greetings,

Baai,

--zeurkous.

P.S.: attached is a main(3) header file and manual page, as a little...
 'going-away present'.

--
Friggin' Machines!

main.tar.gz
Description: main.tar.gz