Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Bernhard Praschinger]

Hallo

> > > What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
> > > than a look at the stream ?
> 
> > I get the error "unsupported field order" and no stream.
> 
> I can report some progress on this front:  upon checking the yuvkineco
> code for this error message, I discovered that the .dv file being
> generated by dvgrab is created (or at least flagged as) bottom field
> first, which yuvkineco apparently can't deal with.  Nothing that a bit
> of fiddling with yuvcorrect can't work around, though.  So, I modify the
> test chain from section 3.4.3 of the HOWTO as follows:
> 
>   smil2yuv -f 40 test.dv | \
> yuvcorrect -T LINE_SWITCH -T INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST | \
> yuvkineco -F 1 | \
> y4mtoppm | pnmsplit - pnm/image%.pnm
> 
> and out the other end, I get 31 non-interlaced frames (out of the
> original 40 from smil2yuv), which all appear to be paired up properly.
> It even seems to properly catch cases where the cycle changes, as seems
> to happen consistently around scene changes.
Fine. :)

> So, does this mean that I am in fact seeing 3:2 pulldown?  If so, I
> assume I'll have to be careful when editing out commercials in Kino, to
> make sure I stay on the cycle -- or can yuvkineco detect and correct for
> cycle changes introduced upstream in that fashion?  For conversion to
> NTSC SVCD MPEG2, I assume I'll need to use the -F 4 setting for
> yuvkineco, which will presumably duplicate frames as necessary.
As far I know the source is not Interlaced. Enterprise is also broadcast
in Europe. And there it is not interlaced.  So I would suggest what you
have alreaddy found out. First correct the wrong interlacing and than
run yuvkineco. You can also use yuvplay instead of pnmsplit to see what
happens.

One note: Scene changes can happen every field. 

auf hoffentlich bald,

Berni the Chaos of Woodquarter

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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 08:17:23PM -0400, I wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:20:10PM +0200, Bernhard Praschinger wrote:

> > What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
> > than a look at the stream ?

> I get the error "unsupported field order" and no stream.

I can report some progress on this front:  upon checking the yuvkineco
code for this error message, I discovered that the .dv file being
generated by dvgrab is created (or at least flagged as) bottom field
first, which yuvkineco apparently can't deal with.  Nothing that a bit
of fiddling with yuvcorrect can't work around, though.  So, I modify the
test chain from section 3.4.3 of the HOWTO as follows:

  smil2yuv -f 40 test.dv | \
yuvcorrect -T LINE_SWITCH -T INTERLACED_TOP_FIRST | \
yuvkineco -F 1 | \
y4mtoppm | pnmsplit - pnm/image%.pnm

and out the other end, I get 31 non-interlaced frames (out of the
original 40 from smil2yuv), which all appear to be paired up properly.
It even seems to properly catch cases where the cycle changes, as seems
to happen consistently around scene changes.

So, does this mean that I am in fact seeing 3:2 pulldown?  If so, I
assume I'll have to be careful when editing out commercials in Kino, to
make sure I stay on the cycle -- or can yuvkineco detect and correct for
cycle changes introduced upstream in that fashion?  For conversion to
NTSC SVCD MPEG2, I assume I'll need to use the -F 4 setting for
yuvkineco, which will presumably duplicate frames as necessary.

TIA as always; I'll get this nailed down yet, I will...

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 12:09:03PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> > Actually, I'm probably using the 0.2.0 release; I couldn't find any
> > mention of an associated CVS repository.

>   It is a bit hard to track down - try this:
> 
> :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvsroot/kino

Oh, Sourceforge.  Okay, I know how to get stuff from there.

>   How are you doing the capture?   With 'dvgrab' perhaps?

Yep, --format raw.  Should I be using something else?  (I'm hoping to
automate this, so Kino is probably out.)

>   If you play the raw DV data what does it look like?

The combing effect is visible with playdv, mostly on changes of camera
angle or objects moving against a contrasting background.  I can also
see the effect in Kino when stepping frame-by-frame.

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Tue, Aug 26, 2003 at 08:53:20AM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> > The combing effect is visible with playdv, most clearly on changes of

>   U, I thought the problem was 'juddering' which would indicate
>   a field order problem of some type. [...]

Again, I may be using the wrong terminology, but it's clear in the
output that the wrong fields are being put together in the same frame.
And for reference, I'm displaying it via TV-out on a TV, so it shouldn't
be a progressive-display problem.  Besides, that still wouldn't explain
what I'm observing in Kino:  three "right" frames followed by two
"wrong" frames, repeating consistently (well, except for camera-angle
changes, which always seem to be wrong-fields-together no matter where
they land in the cycle).  I've put up a couple sample frames extracted
from Kino:

  
  

>   You might try deinterlacing on playback to see if that makes
>   a difference.   I know MPlayer+ffmpeg offer a number of
>   deinterlacing filters that can be tried.

Xine's 'onefield' filter looks fine, but the name suggests that it's
just papering over the problem by throwing one of the fields away.  My
ultimate goal is to convert this to SVCD format, which means I need to
actually fix the problem.

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Steven M. Schultz]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> [Hmm, this hasn't shown up on the list for twelve hours, so I'm assuming
>  it got lost in the shuffle and resending it.  We Apologize for the
>  Inconvenience.(TM)]

SF is just backlogged - sometimes worse than other times.   I've
seen stuff I sent out delayed enough I had forgotten I sent it ;)

> > :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvsroot/kino

Yep - smilutils is off of the kino project, should be
straightforward to check out the latest smilutils

> > How are you doing the capture?   With 'dvgrab' perhaps?
> 
> Yep, --format raw.  Should I be using something else?  (I'm hoping to

dvgrab with the raw format is a very good way to do it - I use
that myself and then kino to do the trimming/cutting.

> > If you play the raw DV data what does it look like?
> 
> The combing effect is visible with playdv, most clearly on changes of

U, I thought the problem was 'juddering' which would indicate
a field order problem of some type.  "combing" is just an
unfortunate side effect of displaying interlaced video on a
computer/progressive display.   

> camera angle or objects moving against a contrasting background.  I can
> also see the effect in Kino, particularly when stepping frame-by-frame.

You might try deinterlacing on playback to see if that makes
a difference.   I know MPlayer+ffmpeg offer a number of
deinterlacing filters that can be tried.

Steven Schultz



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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

[Hmm, this hasn't shown up on the list for twelve hours, so I'm assuming
 it got lost in the shuffle and resending it.  We Apologize for the
 Inconvenience.(TM)]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 12:09:03PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> > Actually, I'm probably using the 0.2.0 release; I couldn't find any
> > mention of an associated CVS repository.

>   It is a bit hard to track down - try this:
> 
> :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvsroot/kino

Oh, Sourceforge.  Okay, I know how to get stuff from there.

>   How are you doing the capture?   With 'dvgrab' perhaps?

Yep, --format raw.  Should I be using something else?  (I'm hoping to
automate this, so Kino is probably out.)

>   If you play the raw DV data what does it look like?

The combing effect is visible with playdv, most clearly on changes of
camera angle or objects moving against a contrasting background.  I can
also see the effect in Kino, particularly when stepping frame-by-frame.

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Steven M. Schultz]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:56:05PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> 
> > If you're using the CVS version of smilutils then that's the
> > latest :)
> 
> Actually, I'm probably using the 0.2.0 release; I couldn't find any
> mention of an associated CVS repository.

It is a bit hard to track down - try this:

:pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvsroot/kino

> The yellow/white/red video/audio inputs, whichever those are called.
> I can never keep the names straight... :-}

Those would be the 'composite' (red&white usually), the yellow is
usually the audio.

> No such luck, alas; I'm no longer getting the weird half-interlaced bits
> like before (that I've seen, at least), but I am still getting the
> 2-3-2-3 field pattern (though it varies sometimes; scene changes in

That is very very strange - I've not seen anything like it.

How are you doing the capture?   With 'dvgrab' perhaps?

> the channels I'm interested in seem to be affected.  I couldn't have
> damaged the hardware permanently, could I?

Very unlikely.

If you play the raw DV data what does it look like?   For that
there is 'playdv' from the libdv project.   If you've mplayer
installed it also can play DV files (probably best to use -nosound
unless you have a very fast system).   Then too just the video
can be played with "smil2yuv DVFILE | yuvplay".   If these work
fine then the problem is in the parts of the pipeline being used
to process the data.

Cheers,
Steven Schultz



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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:56:05PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> > Yeah, I couldn't find any more recent version of smil2yuv, which is my
> > first guess as the source of that problem.

>   If you're using the CVS version of smilutils then that's the
>   latest :)

Actually, I'm probably using the 0.2.0 release; I couldn't find any
mention of an associated CVS repository.

> > The video source is a Time Warner Cable digital cable box; it's branded
> > Pioneer, and the model number on the back is BD-V1100.  The video
> > capture card (I assume that's what you mean) is a Canopus ADVC-50.

>   Ah, another Canopus user - congratulations!

Thanks, assuming I can get all this worked out...

>   The -50 is the internal (or mounts in a drive bay) modle, correct?

As you say.

> > One possibility which occurred to me after I sent the last e-mail was
> > pilot error:  the ADVC-50 has both a component video input and an
> > S-video input and I had both plugged in at once, and it occurred to me
> > that the two might be interfering with each other.  The problem seems to

>   I believe that's "composite" video input (RCA style connector),
>   the only "component" (Y'PrPb) converters I know of are *far*
>   more expensive than a ADVC-50 or ADVC-100.

The yellow/white/red video/audio inputs, whichever those are called.
I can never keep the names straight... :-}

> > recording another episode of the same show; if this turns out to have
> > been the source of the trouble, then We Pre-emptively Apologize for the
> > Interruption(TM). :-}

No such luck, alas; I'm no longer getting the weird half-interlaced bits
like before (that I've seen, at least), but I am still getting the
2-3-2-3 field pattern (though it varies sometimes; scene changes in
particular almost always seem to end up a frame behind, even if they
were in the "correct" part of the pattern).  It seems to depend on which
channel I record from --- but pursuant to Murphy's Law, of course, all
the channels I'm interested in seem to be affected.  I couldn't have
damaged the hardware permanently, could I?

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Steven M. Schultz]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Scott Bigham wrote:

> Yeah, I couldn't find any more recent version of smil2yuv, which is my
> first guess as the source of that problem.

If you're using the CVS version of smilutils then that's the
latest :)

There were a number of bugs in te smil2wav program that have been
fixed recently.   It seems that some programs (mp2enc, etc) are
do not pay attention to the fields in the RIFF/WAV header but
some (such as Apple's AC3 encoder) do.
> 
> The video source is a Time Warner Cable digital cable box; it's branded
> Pioneer, and the model number on the back is BD-V1100.  The video
> capture card (I assume that's what you mean) is a Canopus ADVC-50.
> 
Ah, another Canopus user - congratulations!

The -50 is the internal (or mounts in a drive bay) modle, correct?

> One possibility which occurred to me after I sent the last e-mail was
> pilot error:  the ADVC-50 has both a component video input and an
> S-video input and I had both plugged in at once, and it occurred to me
> that the two might be interfering with each other.  The problem seems to

I believe that's "composite" video input (RCA style connector),
the only "component" (Y'PrPb) converters I know of are *far*
more expensive than a ADVC-50 or ADVC-100.

And yes, having both attached will do Bad Things.

The Canopus boxes (I've a -100) can auto (or manually) select
analog or digital inputs but having two analog connectors at
once confuse the box.

> recording another episode of the same show; if this turns out to have
> been the source of the trouble, then We Pre-emptively Apologize for the
> Interruption(TM). :-}

Not to worry - I think we've all made our fair share of similar
reports 

Cheers,
Steven Schultz



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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 06:16:58PM +0200, Bernhard Praschinger wrote:

> [I wrote:]

> > On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:20:10PM +0200, Bernhard Praschinger wrote:

> > > What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
> > > than a look at the stream ?

> > I get the error "unsupported field order" and no stream.

> Ups.

Yeah, I couldn't find any more recent version of smil2yuv, which is my
first guess as the source of that problem.

> Which video source and video card do you use ?

The video source is a Time Warner Cable digital cable box; it's branded
Pioneer, and the model number on the back is BD-V1100.  The video
capture card (I assume that's what you mean) is a Canopus ADVC-50.

One possibility which occurred to me after I sent the last e-mail was
pilot error:  the ADVC-50 has both a component video input and an
S-video input and I had both plugged in at once, and it occurred to me
that the two might be interfering with each other.  The problem seems to
correct itself in preliminary testing if I use only the S-video and
component audio.  I'm going to do an acid test tomorrow night by
recording another episode of the same show; if this turns out to have
been the source of the trouble, then We Pre-emptively Apologize for the
Interruption(TM). :-}

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Bernhard Praschinger]

Hallo

> On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:20:10PM +0200, Bernhard Praschinger wrote:
> > What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
> > than a look at the stream ?
> I get the error "unsupported field order" and no stream.
Ups.

> > >   
> 
> > That would look more like some strange interlacing.
> 
> Yeah, that's what's got me worried:  that my capture card is somehow out
> of sync with the video input, and that's the source of my problems.
Which video source and video card do you use ? If you use a VCR please
try it again with a other source. 

Some other weird thought could it be that someone made a framerate
conversation and inserted (copied/overlay/bend) frames/fields ? 

auf hoffentlich bald,

Berni the Chaos of Woodquarter

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Scott Bigham]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 07:20:10PM +0200, Bernhard Praschinger wrote:
> What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
> than a look at the stream ?

I get the error "unsupported field order" and no stream.

> >   

> That would look more like some strange interlacing. 

Yeah, that's what's got me worried:  that my capture card is somehow out
of sync with the video input, and that's the source of my problems.

-sbigham


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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Weird interlacing -- 3:2 pulldown?

[Bernhard Praschinger]

Hallo


> I was having what looks like interlacing problems with a recording I'd
> done (via a Canopus ADVC-50 and dvgrab, for reference), so I performed
> the test described in section 3.4.3 of the HOWTO.  Now, according to the
> HOWTO, I should have seen groups of two nearly identical subframes; what
> I saw instead was a group of two followed by a group of three, and
> repeating two-three-two-three, with obvious combing effects in places.
> As a reference sample, I've put up some of the subframes from the test
What happens if you revert that pulldown with yuvkineco (-F 1) and take
than a look at the stream ?

> Is this the infamous 3:2 pulldown I've heard so much about?  I thought
> that only happened with movies converted to TV; but this is a TV show I
> recorded (indeed, after further exploration, I found similar effects
> even in the commercials).
I would think that wou have a differnte problem than. But please try to
revert the "effect" and take than a look at the stream. 

> The question, then:  is there any way to fix this?  yuvcorrect doesn't
> seem to have an option for this.  For 3:2 pulldown, the HOWTO suggests
> yuvkineco -- what does that do exactly?  What really worries me, though,
> are the subframes that look like they got changed halfway through, like:
Have you alreaddy take a look at the manpage an the howto, section:
optimizing the stream ?

>   
> 
> I wouldn't doubt there's no way to fix things like this.  TIA, at any
> rate.
That would look more like some strange interlacing. 

auf hoffentlich bald,

Berni the Chaos of Woodquarter

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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