Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Correct, and that is why, if you go into the auction archives at Heritage, the realized prices includes the buyers premium. Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.comhttp://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/ - Original Message - From: Claude Littonmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUmailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL -- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.comhttp://www.tourtracker.com/?NCID=aolmus0005000112! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
That's the best one I've heard so far. Sorry for not responding to all the replys. I am normally off the computer Sunday and Monday. I didn't realize what a can or worms I was opening, but glad it sparked a good discussion. Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.comhttp://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/ - Original Message - From: Dale Diltsmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUmailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? For the married folks out there. If you bid out a poster at 1000.00, but the checking account is missing 1200, is your spouse going to think you paid 1000 or 1200 :) Paid = cost to own, has nothing to do with being a dealer or a collector. -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby McDaniel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:23 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUmailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.nethttp://www.movieart.net/ On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUmailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.comhttp://www.filmfan.com/ ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i'm Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorldhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.comhttp://www.filmfan.com
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
At 05:31 PM 7/13/2008, JOHN REID Vintage Movie Memorabilia wrote: I agree with Rich. Just looking at my Heritage invoice and I'm really only interested in the total amunt I have to pay which includes the buyers premium. As far as I'm concerned thats what I paid for the poster/s. That is, indeed, what you paid. That isn't the value of the poster, as defined as what it sells/sold for. The price of a hamburger at a restaurant is $8. There's sales tax and a tip to the waiter on top of that. But the hamburger still costs $8, no matter that you paid more than that in total. You're confusing value with total paid. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
A related theoretical question: If you buy a lot of, say, four posters for $400, what do you consider you paid for each poster? $100? Maybe... Okay, now let's say one of them is worth about $300, another about $100, and the other two are posters you can't give away (unless you bundle 'em with nice ones). Now how much did you pay for each poster? -S Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Hello all, Possibly I am a bit late on this subject at hand, however, I have a single question. Who determines a posters(any title) value? Where does this appraisal come from? I was under the impression that the value is determined by what it has been selling for.or, more importantly, what someone was willing to pay for it!! If a collector was willing to pay $11, 900 for a one sheet; regardless how you divide that final costs up.it certainly has to be ConsideredAgain, the question is, just who is appraising the item? Who say's it was only worth $10,000.00?..Certainly the buyer thought differently.This, of course, is my opinion and will hold no one liable for my comments; haha...Vaughn If that is the caseAt 06:41 PM 7/13/2008 -0700, Jeff Potokar wrote: this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Claude Litton To: mailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUMoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Me, too. Richard Del Belso Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:42:16 +1000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU What Claude said. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
what toochis said On Jul 12, 2008, at 9:57 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art wrote: what Phil said At 09:42 PM 7/12/2008, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Roland Lataille Cinerama web site: http://www.cineramahistory.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Susan, I would agree with you. Technically the buyer paid $600 for that item, not the sale price of $500. When this sale is quoted I think it would be accurate to say the item sold for $600. However if you want to be technically correct you can say the item sold for $600 inclusive of the premium and most people will understand what you're saying. FRANC -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Heim Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:10 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Buyers premiums are a tool to help auctions trick sellers into thinking they are paying less in commissions than they really do. I hated them when I ran auctions through other auction houses because of their deceptive nature and that is why I don't use them now. Most bidders are savvy enough to factor in the 19.5% or 20% BP in their bid (they bid $500 because they are willing to pay $600), but it is a different story with sellers. A guy finds a bunch of posters in his attic or barn, and contacts a bunch of auctions about selling them. Most will tell him their selling commission, with no mention of the buyers premium (or it will be buried in fine print). That guy will often call me and tell me I had the highest commission rate of anyone who they contacted, because I take 20% on a $1,000+ item, and everyone else takes less. I then have to explain why BP is (they have never heard of it), and I have to lead them through the math, and finally they go, That's pretty underhanded. But most people never get that explanation. It is also why some auctions list selling price as the hammer price, because that way, the consignor doesn't learn about the BP even AFTER the sale. And, as Phil points out, there are also the profit centers of mark-up on restoration, insurance fees, catalog fees, photography fees, color photography fees, unsold premiums, return shipping fees, etc. I have known many cases over the years where the consignor of a group of items (who was both naive and trusting and simply sent their items) ended up OWING the auction house money on their total consignment! How about a discussion of auction houses that charge BUYERS outrageous shipping (which becomes one of their greatest profit centers)? Bruce On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
[MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
as both a collector and a seller the purchase price must include both the buyers premium and any other related costs ie: shipping Check out our shop video HYPERLINK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-n2AznLA8ohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0 -n2AznLA8o HYPERLINK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCP7PaO-2tkfeature=relatedhttp://www.youtu be.com/watch?v=lCP7PaO-2tkfeature=related HYPERLINK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fojAZcbvL7Efeature=relatedhttp://www.youtu be.com/watch?v=fojAZcbvL7Efeature=relatedHYPERLINK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xPL8Ik037s; HYPERLINK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xPL8Ik037s; jim episale Unshredded Nostalgia 323 South main St. Route 9 Barnegat, N.J. 08005 800-872-9990 609-660-2626 Money back if not satisfied MasterCard Visa Discover American Express _ From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Franc Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:27 AM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Susan, I would agree with you. Technically the buyer paid $600 for that item, not the sale price of $500. When this sale is quoted I think it would be accurate to say the item sold for $600. However if you want to be technically correct you can say the item sold for $600 inclusive of the premium and most people will understand what you're saying. FRANC -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Heim Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:10 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue HYPERLINK http://www.hollywoodposterframes.comwww.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release Date: 7/9/2008 6:32 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release Date: 7/9/2008 6:32 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Phil:?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / I'd be happy to comment. Like most major auction houses, the final sale price reported in our process realized (and in our auction archives) is the hammer price plus the Buyer's Premium. That has always been what we show since that is what auction buyers are used to seeing. We do not show items that did not sell nor have we ever. If an item is returned or is not paid for after the auction, the website automatically updates as a Not Sold. I always tell potential consignors about the Buyer's Premium upfront. It is very much in the scope of the consignor's need to know. That way we avoid any discussion after the fact. I have never wanted to make life more difficult than it already is. For our Signature auctions, the Buyer's Premium basically covers Heritage's cost of the printed catalog and print advertising, both of which we believe attract more buyers who add significantly to our prices realized. In our Internet Only auctions, our average lot value is only about $75-100, since we try to maximize prices for our consignors by minimizing any bulk-lotting of collectible posters. Heritage does charge a Seller's Commission, but often much lower than other firms, especially on lower value items, for which some charge significant fees. That Seller's Commission is negotiated based on the value and quality of the consignment and is never reflected in our reported final price, nor any other auctioneer's prices as far as I know. Heritage, by the way, does not charge for photography, nor for insurance while the items are in our possession. We certainly do not use restoration nor shipping as profit centers, and overall I think we offer excellent value for both buyers and sellers, and I believe most of our bidders and consignors would agree. Best regards, Grey Smith http://www.ha.com/Movieposters Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Phil Edwards Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 12:31 AM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I have no idea what HA's policy is on this, but in years gone by and perhaps HA would like to comment here themselves, other auction houses used to list their final sale price - and it included BP, sale commission (yes, some have it going and coming) the cost they charged for the restoration and linen backing to the consignor (at the ratesTHEY charged for the resto, not the actual discount rates most auction houses get from the resto business due to volume of work they give them), the fees that some auction used to (and maybe still do) for the photography of the item and it's inclusion in a catalogue, et al, ad nausea. The final achieved price can often appear grossly inflated - especially on the middle range stuff. And the obvious reason is simply - it allows any auction house to announce a record overall sales totalfor the day, and it makes potential consignors look at the results and perhaps without knowing how that final achieved price was achieved... be attracted to that auction house becuase they seem to get great results. What the consignor gets out of it may be considerably less. If all one has to do is deduct HA's BP and seller's commission (if they have one) then one can see the final bid price. The final sale price is the bid price plus BP. One can factor in shipping if one wants to as the total one paid for the piece as well. There is another side of the coin that might also be worth discussing, however, and one that makes trawling through old Posterprice Alamanacs fascinating - knowing or wondering of the prices realised on the auction house listings by some houses include all thos extraneous add-ons to give a final number. Phil - Original Message - From: Brek Andersonmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUmailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hi, When Heritage lists what a poster sold for in the auction archives it doesn't say $5000 plus a BP. It just says $6000 with no mention of the hammer price. Same with any other auction house's auction archives only results listed include the BP. Brek -- Original message -- From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
right on martin someone else who also sees the light... i was beginning to feel like the odd man out. this was the whole point of the post i wrote last night: have a good one. jeff my feeling is this: the BP is a fee or commission charged and gathered by the auction house, so this fee cannot be added to a poster's final value. here's a hypothetical question: a high end poster is taken to an appraiser and valued at $10K--maximum value. this poster now sells at heritage for that price. but with the 19.5% BP, it costs another 1950.00 to the buyer to be able to obtain the poster. the appraised value of said poster is still $10K. it hasn't suddenly jumped in value by almost 2 thousand dollars, simply because the buyer got it via an auction house--this is the fee the buyer had to pay, in order to acquire his or her $10K poster. have a great weekend all. jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 12:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I agree with Claude that I should not be getting involved in this nonsense. Whatever happened to Sue Heim? I guess she's smarter than me and decided to abandon this conversation. Anyway, when we pay $4.50 for a gallon of gas, I know deep inside that we are only paying $2.00 for that gas, because the other $2.50 is a combination of local taxes, gas storage fees, transportation/ trucking fees, facility maintenance fees, employee fees, etc. $2.00 for a gallon of gas is quite reasonable. -rk On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Susan Heim wrote: Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Hi everyone, I want to make clear that I was not disagreeing with Sue Heim. I agree with what she wrote re: values. I just offered what I deal with regarding added cost to a price. What is everyone's take on this recent auction? I'd love to hear. Have a great Sunday, toochis - Original Message From: Jeff Potokar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 12:51:02 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? right on martin someone else who also sees the light... i was beginning to feel like the odd man out. this was the whole point of the post i wrote last night: have a good one. jeff my feeling is this: the BP is a fee or commission charged and gathered by the auction house, so this fee cannot be added to a poster's final value. here's a hypothetical question: a high end poster is taken to an appraiser and valued at $10K--maximum value. this poster now sells at heritage for that price. but with the 19.5% BP, it costs another 1950.00 to the buyer to be able to obtain the poster. the appraised value of said poster is still $10K. it hasn't suddenly jumped in value by almost 2 thousand dollars, simply because the buyer got it via an auction house--this is the fee the buyer had to pay, in order to acquire his or her $10K poster. have a great weekend all. jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 12:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
For the married folks out there. If you bid out a poster at 1000.00, but the checking account is missing 1200, is your spouse going to think you paid 1000 or 1200 :) Paid = cost to own, has nothing to do with being a dealer or a collector. -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby McDaniel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:23 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i'm Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
well, smart married men keep an unknown bank account for these issues that way it only cost $25 At 03:49 PM 7/13/2008, Dale Dilts wrote: For the married folks out there. If you bid out a poster at 1000.00, but the checking account is missing 1200, is your spouse going to think you paid 1000 or 1200 :) Paid = cost to own, has nothing to do with being a dealer or a collector. -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby McDaniel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:23 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i'm Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Cost to Own does not equal Value or even Price. Cost to Own is the Price plus additional expenses entailed in acquiring it. How much you spent isn't the same thing as how much the item sold for. If you bought something for the auction price of $1,000 but you had a $200 credit with the auctioneer, you can write a check for $800. Does that mean the price is $800 or $1000? To get rid of other spurious elements, it isn't a credit based on a transaction but based on a gift (a la a gift card at a store) or winning a contest. So you're actually only spending $800. Does that mean the value of the poster has just gone down? The value is the sales price. Buyers Premiums are the cost of doing business with that seller. (If you bought the item in, say, Las Vegas or Portland, Oregon, where there's no sales tax, does that mean the value of the poster is less than if you bought it in Los Angeles or New York where there is? The sales tax is not part of the valuation of the poster, just as the BP is not. That you have to pay it is separate from the value of the item.) Craig. At 03:49 PM 7/13/2008, Dale Dilts wrote: For the married folks out there. If you bid out a poster at 1000.00, but the checking account is missing 1200, is your spouse going to think you paid 1000 or 1200 :) Paid = cost to own, has nothing to do with being a dealer or a collector. -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby McDaniel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:23 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i'm Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
It's what you spent but it wasn't just the price of the poster. There was also a commission charged by the seller. And taxes. And maybe shipping. And if you're planning to resell it -- or if you put it up in your please of business as office decoration, there's a deduction you take on your taxes. You don't deduct that from the amount when you declare the cost, I assume. But you should if you were calculating the true cost to you, which is not the same as the price. Craig. At 03:23 PM 7/13/2008, Kirby McDaniel wrote: Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ The i'm Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Craig Once again you hit the nail on the head. Thanks, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:09:30 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Cost to Own does not equal Value or even Price. Cost to Own is the Price plus additional expenses entailed in acquiring it. How much you spent isn't the same thing as how much the item sold for. If you bought something for the auction price of $1,000 but you had a $200 credit with the auctioneer, you can write a check for $800. Does that mean the price is $800 or $1000? To get rid of other spurious elements, it isn't a credit based on a transaction but based on a gift (a la a gift card at a store) or winning a contest. So you're actually only spending $800. Does that mean the value of the poster has just gone down? The value is the sales price. Buyers Premiums are the cost of doing business with that seller. (If you bought the item in, say, Las Vegas or Portland, Oregon, where there's no sales tax, does that mean the value of the poster is less than if you bought it in Los Angeles or New York where there is? The sales tax is not part of the valuation of the poster, just as the BP is not. That you have to pay it is separate from the value of the item.) Craig. At 03:49 PM 7/13/2008, Dale Dilts wrote: For the married folks out there. If you bid out a poster at 1000.00, but the checking account is missing 1200, is your spouse going to think you paid 1000 or 1200 :) Paid = cost to own, has nothing to do with being a dealer or a collector. -Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby McDaniel Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:23 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Funny, but when I pay for that poster it seems like that was the price to me. Lock, stock and barrel. Kirby McDaniel www.movieart.net On Jul 13, 2008, at 2:40 PM, martin s wrote: FINALLY, someone who gets it! Thanks Craig, that's it exactly... The sales price of the poster is the $ amount when the auctioneer says SOLD. Everything added after that is a fee, tax, or shipping charge. As you said, it breaks down into collectors and dealers. Dealers need to roll all of those extra expenses into the total price paid, however, that is NOT the price that the poster SOLD for. If I paid 10K for a poster, 2k for BP, 825. for tax, and 100. for shipping, My total paid is $12,925, but the sale price of the poster is still 10K. Everything else is fees, taxes and other charges. Best wishes, M Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:03:14 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU At 04:51 AM 7/13/2008, Roland Lataille wrote: I just won a one sheet Cinerama roadshow Circus World poster from Heritage for $60 plus $11.70 for BP. I would say I paid $71.70 for it. I think I got a pretty good deal as I was willing to pay a lot more for it. You don't see this Cinerama roadshow poster on Ebay very often. Seems to me there's a difference between the sales price (i.e. what the poster sold for) and the cost of acquiring it. If I buy a poster -- or anything -- from someone in person (or from someone from whom I can pick it up) there is no shipping fee. That doesn't mean the item sold for less. It means there were no added fees. While a Buyer's Premium is something I would have to pay if I bought a poster through an auction house, it is a fee that I need to be willing to pay but isn't truly part of the poster's price, no more than sales tax, or money later spent to fix up, linenback, or frame a poster. Those may be part of what I need or want to spend on the poster, but they aren't part of the price. Frankly, saying it is sounds more like dealers trying to find ways to push up the price of a poster. It sold for $1000 plus a 20% BP, so the real price is $1200. Next time, someone should pay $1150 plus a BP of 15% so the value will be $1440. It's a fee on a fee on a fee that people are using to artificially inflate the value. It is, I'll concede, more accurate to say the *cost* of the poster was the auction price plus all other expenses incurred. But that doesn't make it the value of the poster. Craig. ~ Craig MillerWolfmill Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Grey - Thanks for taking the time to reply on this. Kind regards, Phil - Original Message - From: Smith, Grey - 1367 To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Phil: I'd be happy to comment. Like most major auction houses, the final sale price reported in our process realized (and in our auction archives) is the hammer price plus the Buyer's Premium. That has always been what we show since that is what auction buyers are used to seeing. We do not show items that did not sell nor have we ever. If an item is returned or is not paid for after the auction, the website automatically updates as a Not Sold. I always tell potential consignors about the Buyer's Premium upfront. It is very much in the scope of the consignor's need to know. That way we avoid any discussion after the fact. I have never wanted to make life more difficult than it already is. For our Signature auctions, the Buyer's Premium basically covers Heritage's cost of the printed catalog and print advertising, both of which we believe attract more buyers who add significantly to our prices realized. In our Internet Only auctions, our average lot value is only about $75-100, since we try to maximize prices for our consignors by minimizing any bulk-lotting of collectible posters. Heritage does charge a Seller's Commission, but often much lower than other firms, especially on lower value items, for which some charge significant fees. That Seller's Commission is negotiated based on the value and quality of the consignment and is never reflected in our reported final price, nor any other auctioneer's prices as far as I know. Heritage, by the way, does not charge for photography, nor for insurance while the items are in our possession. We certainly do not use restoration nor shipping as profit centers, and overall I think we offer excellent value for both buyers and sellers, and I believe most of our bidders and consignors would agree. Best regards, Grey Smith Original Message- From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Phil Edwards Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 12:31 AM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I have no idea what HA's policy is on this, but in years gone by and perhaps HA would like to comment here themselves, other auction houses used to list their final sale price - and it included BP, sale commission (yes, some have it going and coming) the cost they charged for the restoration and linen backing to the consignor (at the ratesTHEY charged for the resto, not the actual discount rates most auction houses get from the resto business due to volume of work they give them), the fees that some auction used to (and maybe still do) for the photography of the item and it's inclusion in a catalogue, et al, ad nausea. The final achieved price can often appear grossly inflated - especially on the middle range stuff. And the obvious reason is simply - it allows any auction house to announce a record overall sales totalfor the day, and it makes potential consignors look at the results and perhaps without knowing how that final achieved price was achieved... be attracted to that auction house becuase they seem to get great results. What the consignor gets out of it may be considerably less. If all one has to do is deduct HA's BP and seller's commission (if they have one) then one can see the final bid price. The final sale price is the bid price plus BP. One can factor in shipping if one wants to as the total one paid for the piece as well. There is another side of the coin that might also be worth discussing, however, and one that makes trawling through old Posterprice Alamanacs fascinating - knowing or wondering of the prices realised on the auction house listings by some houses include all thos extraneous add-ons to give a final number. Phil - Original Message - From: Brek Anderson To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hi, When Heritage lists what a poster sold for in the auction archives it doesn't say $5000 plus a BP. It just says $6000 with no mention of the hammer price. Same with any other auction house's auction archives only results listed include the BP. Brek -- Original message -- From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
man I tell ya folks, it's hard to me to understand how anyone can say that the extra $390 I gave Geritage on a $2000 poster is just evaporation if you went to the supermarket your bill came to $120 and the cashier says we also have the buyer's premium of 10% so your bill is $132 I think you would all go ballistic. You're paying the full cost of the item. But here's where you'll find the most obvious example of what true cost is if you buy a poster for $10,000 at Heritage and they add $1950 and you pay $100 to get it shipped to you... your insurance policy will pay you $11,950 when it burns up in your house fire north of L.A. Period end of story your cost is $11,950 however your shipping cost IS evaporation. The insurer will not refund to you the cost of shipping.. when I bid $3000 I know I'm really bidding $3585. that is my cost.. my cost is my check, not my check minus $585 anyone who thinks otherwise is NUTS Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
This makes the best sense to me. I'll go with this one. Andrea On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art wrote: man I tell ya folks, it's hard to me to understand how anyone can say that the extra $390 I gave Geritage on a $2000 poster is just evaporation if you went to the supermarket your bill came to $120 and the cashier says we also have the buyer's premium of 10% so your bill is $132 I think you would all go ballistic. You're paying the full cost of the item. But here's where you'll find the most obvious example of what true cost is if you buy a poster for $10,000 at Heritage and they add $1950 and you pay $100 to get it shipped to you... your insurance policy will pay you $11,950 when it burns up in your house fire north of L.A. Period end of story your cost is $11,950 however your shipping cost IS evaporation. The insurer will not refund to you the cost of shipping.. when I bid $3000 I know I'm really bidding $3585. that is my cost.. my cost is my check, not my check minus $585 anyone who thinks otherwise is NUTS Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Let us resolve and work toward achieving some very simple propositions: There are no acceptable limits and there are no acceptable prejudices in the twenty-first century. - Sen Hillary Rodham Clinton Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you will not say 1000---period. I guess by now you can tell I am relaxing because I never write such long emails. My children are at my home for the week and they are putting my grandchildren to bed. CJL **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I agree with Rich. Just looking at my Heritage invoice and I'm really only interested in the total amunt I have to pay which includes the buyers premium. As far as I'm concerned thats what I paid for the poster/s. Sign up for my regular newsletter on movie memorabilia: http://www.moviemem.com/pages/page.php?mod=accountgo=register Visit my Website: www.moviemem.com All About Australian posters: http://search.reviews.ebay.com/members/johnwr_W0QQuqtZg My eBay Store and Lisitngs: http://myworld.ebay.com/johnwr/ Exhibitions: http://www.moviemem.com/pages/page.php?page=15 JOHN REID VINTAGE MOVIE MEMORABILIA PO Box 92 Palm Beach Qld 4221 Australia - Original Message - From: Richard Halegua Comic Art [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? man I tell ya folks, it's hard to me to understand how anyone can say that the extra $390 I gave Geritage on a $2000 poster is just evaporation if you went to the supermarket your bill came to $120 and the cashier says we also have the buyer's premium of 10% so your bill is $132 I think you would all go ballistic. You're paying the full cost of the item. But here's where you'll find the most obvious example of what true cost is if you buy a poster for $10,000 at Heritage and they add $1950 and you pay $100 to get it shipped to you... your insurance policy will pay you $11,950 when it burns up in your house fire north of L.A. Period end of story your cost is $11,950 however your shipping cost IS evaporation. The insurer will not refund to you the cost of shipping.. when I bid $3000 I know I'm really bidding $3585. that is my cost.. my cost is my check, not my check minus $585 anyone who thinks otherwise is NUTS Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you will not say 1000---period. I guess by now you can tell I am relaxing because I never write such long emails. My children are at my home for the week and they are putting my grandchildren to bed. CJL -- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
The reason it's being debated is simple: everyone is talking about different things, and some people are not realizing it. The price you paid is not the same as the sale price of the poster. This was outlined very well a few emails ago.sorry I didn't save it after reading, but it was quite succinct. From: MoPo List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Edwards Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:07 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you will not say 1000---period. I guess by now you can tell I am relaxing because I never write such long emails. My children are at my home for the week and they are putting my grandchildren to bed. CJL Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I have come to the conclusion that all should agree to disagree if they do so, or if not, do not. I, for one, see salient comments on both sides. I cannot disagree with the idea that 'the price paid in order to acquire the poster is the price paid, aka value that the buyer has or will assign to the poster. Can't say for sure if that means anyone else will value it at that price, but the Buyer certainly has all sorts of reasons to come to that conclusion. Then again, does this mean that if I fly to Texas for the Heritage Auction I can add the price of the flight and hotel to the increased value of the poster? And if not, why not, for these costs, too, were incurred in acquiring said poster? Bottom line, I'm watching ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and it's far more interesting than this fast becoming threadbare thread. Therefore, I will take the New and Improved position of agreeing with everyone as if I were a Swiss Poster. Everyone's right, everyone 'wins.' Which reminds me of what Sue Heim once asked me after I told her, excitedly, that I'd won a certain poster on Ebay. Congratulations, you won the poster! said Sue, adding Does that mean you don't have to pay for it? Patrick On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Jeff Potokar wrote: this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Appraised value/value and the cost of the item are two completely different things in my book. If I bid 10,000 and the bottom line is 12,000 to get here, it COST me 12,000. I don't care if it appraises for .50 it cost me 12,000 to get it to me to hang it on my wall. Goes in my books as cost of goods = 12,000. -- Original message -- From: Jeff Potokar [EMAIL PROTECTED] this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you will not say 1000---period. I guess by now you can tell I am relaxing because I never write such long emails. My children are at my home for the week and they are putting my grandchildren to bed. CJL Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
AIN'T IT THA' TRUTH? K. On Jul 13, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art wrote: man I tell ya folks, it's hard to me to understand how anyone can say that the extra $390 I gave Geritage on a $2000 poster is just evaporation if you went to the supermarket your bill came to $120 and the cashier says we also have the buyer's premium of 10% so your bill is $132 I think you would all go ballistic. You're paying the full cost of the item. But here's where you'll find the most obvious example of what true cost is if you buy a poster for $10,000 at Heritage and they add $1950 and you pay $100 to get it shipped to you... your insurance policy will pay you $11,950 when it burns up in your house fire north of L.A. Period end of story your cost is $11,950 however your shipping cost IS evaporation. The insurer will not refund to you the cost of shipping.. when I bid $3000 I know I'm really bidding $3585. that is my cost.. my cost is my check, not my check minus $585 anyone who thinks otherwise is NUTS Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
No, I don't think it does make sense. What is an appraisal but an estimation of value? And how is the value of something better measured that the amount one has to part with to acquire that something. If the BP is part of what you have part with, then it must be factored as meaningful in determining worth. When MovieArt pays an auction house, for example, $1000 + 195.00BP for a poster, we don't just forget the $195.00. In fact, that money goes into our account right along with the price to determine the cost of goods. Similarly, when appraisals are made in the future about that particular item, this BP is counted, too. John Kisch included the BPs in his POSTER PRICE DATABASE. It only makes sense. On the other hand the seller's premium is really more of a service fee. K. On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:41 PM, Jeff Potokar wrote: this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
An appraisal is an opinion -- hence subjective. However, actual cost is OBJECTIVE, even if it changes tomorrow. Whether you're talking about a house, a car or a Rembrandt -- to a buyer -- fees, insurance, taxes all figure into an item's REAL cost. This is where the expression, everything, out-the-door -- originated -- as it relates to a potential buyer's thinking before a purchase. The buyer's premium MUST ALWAYS be included in the actual cost of an item. It represents real dollars leaving your pocket. An appraisal -- like a pre-auction estimate -- is just that -- a hypothetical figure presumably based on past performance, hence entirely speculative. -d. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Love the discussion. It's been entertaining. However, one of the comments made earlier asked why weren't other fees included in the final price of a poster~ such as restoration costs and shipping? Those are options. IF you live in the same town where an auction is being held, you have the option of picking up the poster and not paying the shipping charges. Same goes for a poster you purchase that needs restoration. You have the option of restoring it or not restoring it. However, when it comes to auctions, you do not have the option of deciding whether or not to pay the buyer's premium. If you don't pay it, you don't get the poster. Therefore, it IS part of the final purchase price of the poster. Ron Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Decent discussion. Horse dead. Well kicked. New topic at further inflaming the MoPoer passions: What, in your opinion is the absolute worst 1Sheet Art for a great or favorite film? On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Ron Moore wrote: Love the discussion. It's been entertaining. However, one of the comments made earlier asked why weren't other fees included in the final price of a poster~ such as restoration costs and shipping? Those are options. IF you live in the same town where an auction is being held, you have the option of picking up the poster and not paying the shipping charges. Same goes for a poster you purchase that needs restoration. You have the option of restoring it or not restoring it. However, when it comes to auctions, you do not have the option of deciding whether or not to pay the buyer's premium. If you don't pay it, you don't get the poster. Therefore, it IS part of the final purchase price of the poster. Ron Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I'm sorry Mr. Tupy, but Michael B. already cleverly tried to veer us off topic (with a discussion about your favorite framed poster for a film you haven't seen; Mine is Keep 'em Laughing with a great shot of Jack Benny at the microphone), but fortunately we all saw through his deception and kept talking about the buyer's premium. This discussion has enough life to drag on for at least two more days. Sincerely, rk On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:49 PM, Patrick Michael Tupy wrote: Decent discussion. Horse dead. Well kicked. New topic at further inflaming the MoPoer passions: What, in your opinion is the absolute worst 1Sheet Art for a great or favorite film? On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Ron Moore wrote: Love the discussion. It's been entertaining. However, one of the comments made earlier asked why weren't other fees included in the final price of a poster~ such as restoration costs and shipping? Those are options. IF you live in the same town where an auction is being held, you have the option of picking up the poster and not paying the shipping charges. Same goes for a poster you purchase that needs restoration. You have the option of restoring it or not restoring it. However, when it comes to auctions, you do not have the option of deciding whether or not to pay the buyer's premium. If you don't pay it, you don't get the poster. Therefore, it IS part of the final purchase price of the poster. Ron Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand? Actually, I usually sit.....
This post is taking on a life of its own for no reason. The best threads on any forum usually do. It's called a conversation where one thing leads to another and makes for a hell of a lot more fun place at MOPO than the usual list of FS/FAs and reminders of FAs and FSs, which after a while start reading like a bunch of FUs. Keep it going. Phil - Original Message - From: Ron Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Love the discussion. It's been entertaining. However, one of the comments made earlier asked why weren't other fees included in the final price of a poster~ such as restoration costs and shipping? Those are options. IF you live in the same town where an auction is being held, you have the option of picking up the poster and not paying the shipping charges. Same goes for a poster you purchase that needs restoration. You have the option of restoring it or not restoring it. However, when it comes to auctions, you do not have the option of deciding whether or not to pay the buyer's premium. If you don't pay it, you don't get the poster. Therefore, it IS part of the final purchase price of the poster. Ron Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
SOYLENT GREEN IS BP! How 'bout favorite quotes from ANY film? ANYTHING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT!!! No headway is being made, everyone's preaching to their selective choir! How 'bout fave films with churches featured in the artwork? Make it stop... Best Belgian poster featuring a monkey?! PMT On Jul 13, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Roger Kim wrote: I'm sorry Mr. Tupy, but Michael B. already cleverly tried to veer us off topic (with a discussion about your favorite framed poster for a film you haven't seen; Mine is Keep 'em Laughing with a great shot of Jack Benny at the microphone), but fortunately we all saw through his deception and kept talking about the buyer's premium. This discussion has enough life to drag on for at least two more days. Sincerely, rk On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:49 PM, Patrick Michael Tupy wrote: Decent discussion. Horse dead. Well kicked. New topic at further inflaming the MoPoer passions: What, in your opinion is the absolute worst 1Sheet Art for a great or favorite film? On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Ron Moore wrote: Love the discussion. It's been entertaining. However, one of the comments made earlier asked why weren't other fees included in the final price of a poster~ such as restoration costs and shipping? Those are options. IF you live in the same town where an auction is being held, you have the option of picking up the poster and not paying the shipping charges. Same goes for a poster you purchase that needs restoration. You have the option of restoring it or not restoring it. However, when it comes to auctions, you do not have the option of deciding whether or not to pay the buyer's premium. If you don't pay it, you don't get the poster. Therefore, it IS part of the final purchase price of the poster. Ron Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand? Actually, I usually sit.....
here, here phil..i agree with that thought... :) jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: it makes for a hell of a lot more fun place at MOPO than the usual list of FS/FAs and reminders of FAs and FSs, which after a while start reading like a bunch of FUs. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME (do cathedrals count???) jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 9:09 PM, Patrick Michael Tupy wrote: How 'bout fave films with churches featured in the artwork? Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?i
I agree with my good friend Claudewell put ! Philipp Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Claude Litton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:39:42 To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? My initial reaction to all this was ridiculous and I replied as such. i now find it amusing and relate it to a number of experiences in my profession which I will relate to you. I have represented owners of real estate in NYC for many years and I spend most of my time negotiating commercial leases. These leases require tenants to pay annual rent. Rent consists of base rent which is the cost per sq. ft. and is the same for every year of the lease. Then there are escalation clauses which increase the amount that the tenant pays and they are based on certain expenses which increase for the landlord and are passed through to each tenant. Some of these are operating escalation, tax escalation, fuel escalation, capital expenses required by law escalation, asbestos removal cost escalation, etc. Many times when a lease has been in effect for years a tenant is shocked to learn that the $100,000 base rent is now $180,000 due to the escalations in the lease. When the tenant gets a renewal lease for more than $180,000 he calls and wants to know why the rent is going from $100,000 to $200,000 instead of from $180,000 to $200,000. The tenant never took the escalation into account even though he paid it all the years of the lease and many just cannot grasp this concept. No matter how you pay the rent or look at the auction results, the price you paid was the bottom line. For all of you who think the price is the hammer price and the rest are only incidentals, I have a question. When you bid, do you take the buyer's premium into consideration? My final statement concerns a poster you bought at auction and decide to sell at a later date. Let's assume you paid $1000 plus $200 BP. When someone asks you what you paid for it, do you tell him 1000 or 1200. If you are trying to sell it for 1500 and the person asks what you paid, I guarantee you will not say 1000---period. I guess by now you can tell I am relaxing because I never write such long emails. My children are at my home for the week and they are putting my grandchildren to bed. CJL **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I recently did an apparaisal of a large collection for insurance purposes. Kirby is of course correct when he says: What is an appraisal but an estimation of value? This collection was acquired over several years and the appraisal had to be based on what the approximate current replacement value would be to determine the premium. Now given that several pieces were absolutely one of a kind in some regard, one had to use somewhat significantly different yardsticks to apply a replacement value for something that cannot be replaced with an identical item. None of this is new for most people contributing here, but it's worth looking at different aspects. I can assure you that the items that this collector purchased had a starting value of what he had paid for them (including any BPs and any additional fees accrued inthe acquisition of the item, bank charges for transfers, exchange rates at the time that impacted purcahse price in US$, et al) and then we started looking at what it would be to replace that item now, and looking forward. Ken Schacter has made no secret of his ownership of the METROPOLIS three sheet... so let's use Ken's poster as an example. What did he pay for it (his business) and how was that money organised for payment (his business) did it require loans and interest calculations et al (again, his business) but the bottom line is. the poster had a final purchase price BUT in the event of a worst case scenario - HOW DOES HE ESTIMATE A REPLACEMENT VALUE. Let's face it, apart from a couple in private collections that might be levered out, where does one go to replace the irreplacable? How does one one value the irreplacable? Phil - Original Message - From: Kirby McDaniel To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? No, I don't think it does make sense. What is an appraisal but an estimation of value? And how is the value of something better measured that the amount one has to part with to acquire that something. If the BP is part of what you have part with, then it must be factored as meaningful in determining worth. When MovieArt pays an auction house, for example, $1000 + 195.00BP for a poster, we don't just forget the $195.00. In fact, that money goes into our account right along with the price to determine the cost of goods. Similarly, when appraisals are made in the future about that particular item, this BP is counted, too. John Kisch included the BPs in his POSTER PRICE DATABASE. It only makes sense. On the other hand the seller's premium is really more of a service fee. K. On Jul 13, 2008, at 8:41 PM, Jeff Potokar wrote: this whole topic is deviating from the original idea of an item's appraised value, not necessarily it purchase price. here is the scenario, AGAIN-- plain and simple: A poster has been taken to appraiser number 1, and is said to be worth $10K. (follow me folks..). the owner of this poster consigns it to heritage, and heritage also estimates that it is worth between $9-10K, and states this fact on the auction page. .. again, so we are clear-- this poster has an appraised value of 10 grand... the auction may realize a winning bid that is less, or possibly higher than this appraised amount. the winning bidder gets the poster for 10K. in order for the winner to take the poster home, he must also pay the 19.5% BP, which is the auction house fee/commission (plus shipping, if he isn't in dallas personally). the winning bidder (who is in dallas), picks up his poster and pays a total of $11,950.00. he goes home, happy, and decides to take his new treasure to another appraiser, for a second opinion. Appraiser number 2 looks at the poster, and tells the winning bidder that he would also appraise the piece at $9500-10K. The winning buyer, in a huff, tells the appraiser he is wrong--- that he has just had to pay a 1950.00 BP at an auction house and the poster is, in the buyer's own opinion, now worth just under $12K, because that was the buyer's total outlay. It IS worth 2000.00 more because i had to pay that, in addition to the ten grand! cries the winning bidder. i guarantee that appraiser number 2 (or 3, 4 or 5) would tell him that he was wrong. a paid fee for an item (whether it be a poster, antique furniture, rare coin, etc) is not added on to suddenly elevate an item's appraised value. that appraised value is in the object itself. make sense? jeff On Jul 13, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said - again. Not sure why some folks are finding this a debatable subject. You paid what you paid, however the amount was arrived at. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, July 14
[MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item. How could it be anything else? Saul - Original Message - From: Susan Heim To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
it's hard to believe that anyone would call the buyers premium a tax with no consequences I suspect it's just their way of justifying paying someone less than what someone may be asking, or as we call them - buying tactics whenever I bid, I always count my total cost and I may even count the cost of shipping to me At 06:10 PM 7/12/2008, Susan Heim wrote: Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue http://www.hollywoodposterframes.comwww.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I AGREE 100% BUT, ALSO, ADD SHIIPPING.? when i tell some what i've paid, i respond, $ XXX WITH shipping. my investment is the total cost. michael gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item.? How could it be anything else? ? Saul -Original Message- From: Saul H. Chapman, Ph.D [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item.? How could it be anything else? ? Saul - Original Message - From: Susan Heim To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, ?? I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell,? quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium.? I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then infor m me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item.? For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000?? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? ? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I'm on the same page with you both, Saul and Rich, and Rich, you are right on with the motives. If you have an item that isn't that costly, give or take $50 to $100 isn't a big deal. But if you have a poster that gaveled at $10,000 and the buyer's premiums adds another $2000, that puts that poster into a whole different price structure. I mean if someone bought the Attack of the 50' Woman for $12,000 but with the buyer's premiums the final cost was $14,400 and his friend asks him what his poster is worth, I'm sure he won't say $12,000. Sue Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:28:24 -0700To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand?it's hard to believe that anyone would call the buyers premium a tax with no consequencesI suspect it's just their way of justifying paying someone less than what someone may be asking, or as we call them - buying tacticswhenever I bid, I always count my total cost and I may even count the cost of shipping to me At 06:10 PM 7/12/2008, Susan Heim wrote: Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com___How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing ListSend a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-LThe author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
To use your hypothetical example... I think this guy is arguing that the consigner of the Breakfast at Tiffany's poster only made $5000 (or even less if there's a seller's premium), therefore, there may be other sellers that are also willing to sell for under $5000. On the other hand, the auction proved that there is at least one buyer who was willing to pay $6000. Therefore, other sellers may try to get this amount. So, I think it's valid that your fellow collector is trying to get the poster for $5000, but that doesn't mean he'll succeed. -rk On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Susan Heim wrote: Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
and Insurance then. gavel price + buyer's premium + SH + insurance (if not included in SH) = financial investment = final cost of item (not including the dime here and there if you had to call in the bid using a non-800 phone number) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I AGREE 100% BUT, ALSO, ADD SHIIPPING. when i tell some what i've paid, i respond, $ XXX WITH shipping. my investment is the total cost. michael gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item. How could it be anything else? Saul -Original Message- From: Saul H. Chapman, Ph.D [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item. How could it be anything else? Saul - Original Message - From: Susan Heim To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. -- The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Sue, I'm with you. The total price for an auction item is the price the buyer paid. If a Breakfast at Tiffany’s hammer price was $5,000. and with the premium $6,000., the buyer paid $6,000. for the poster, not $5,000. Best, Todd Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:10:23 +From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand?To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
3?weeks ago, i purchased a poster from someone who doesn't accept paypal.? cost me a stamp michael and Insurance then. ? gavel price + buyer's premium + SH + insurance (if not included in SH) = financial investment = final cost of item ? (not including the dime here and there if you had to call in the bid using a non-800 phone number) -Original Message- From: Saul H. Chapman, Ph.D [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? and Insurance then. ? gavel price + buyer's premium + SH + insurance (if not included in SH) = financial investment = final cost of item ? (not including the dime here and there if you had to call in the bid using a non-800 phone number) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I AGREE 100% BUT, ALSO, ADD SHIIPPING.? when i tell some what i've paid, i respond, $ XXX WITH shipping. my investment is the total cost. michael gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item.? How could it be anything else? ? Saul -Original Message- From: Saul H. Chapman, Ph.D [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? gavel price + buyer's premium is final cost of item.? How could it be anything else? ? Saul - Original Message - From: Susan Heim To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, ?? I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell,? quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium.? I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then infor m me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item.? For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000?? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? ? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Hello all, It's a great question. I guess because the premium is a service fee I don't count it. Because it's a commission. Because I deal in commissions all the time, I don't usually count them as part of the cost of the talent. I agree that the fees are large enough to warrant being part of the price. Toochis - Original Message From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:10:23 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
i agree with you, toochis... my feeling is this: the BP is a fee or commission charged and gathered by the auction house, so this fee cannot be added to a poster's final value. here's a hypothetical question: a high end poster is taken to an appraiser and valued at $10K--maximum value. this poster now sells at heritage for that price. but with the 19.5% BP, it costs another 1950.00 to the buyer to be able to obtain the poster. the appraised value of said poster is still $10K. it hasn't suddenly jumped in value by almost 2 thousand dollars, simply because the buyer got it via an auction house--this is the fee the buyer had to pay, in order to acquire his or her $10K poster. have a great weekend all. jeff On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Toochis Morin wrote: Hello all, It's a great question. I guess because the premium is a service fee I don't count it. Because it's a commission. Because I deal in commissions all the time, I don't usually count them as part of the cost of the talent. I agree that the fees are large enough to warrant being part of the price. Toochis - Original Message From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:10:23 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
okay how's this: a collector buys a poster from Heritage in teh signature auction, however he buys it via the ebay system bot HALive he gives Heritage a check for $11,950.00 which represents $10,000 bid price 19.5% vig then Heritage gives ebay (oops, I mean fleaBay) $350 resulting a net sale of $9650.00 how much did the buyer really pay?? Now the other side: a collector sells a poster via Heritage. It sells for $10,000 and the buyer pays Heritage $11,950 Heritage pays the seller $7000, but before they send a check they also bill the seller for linenbacking of this 6 sheet poster for $800 and the seller gets $6200 how much did the buyer really pay?? === At 07:13 PM 7/12/2008, Jeff Potokar wrote: i agree with you, toochis... my feeling is this: the BP is a fee or commission charged and gathered by the auction house, so this fee cannot be added to a poster's final value. here's a hypothetical question: a high end poster is taken to an appraiser and valued at $10K--maximum value. this poster now sells at heritage for that price. but with the 19.5% BP, it costs another 1950.00 to the buyer to be able to obtain the poster. the appraised value of said poster is still $10K. it hasn't suddenly jumped in value by almost 2 thousand dollars, simply because the buyer got it via an auction house--this is the fee the buyer had to pay, in order to acquire his or her $10K poster. have a great weekend all. jeff On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Toochis Morin wrote: Hello all, It's a great question. I guess because the premium is a service fee I don't count it. Because it's a commission. Because I deal in commissions all the time, I don't usually count them as part of the cost of the talent. I agree that the fees are large enough to warrant being part of the price. Toochis - Original Message From: Susan Heim mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUMoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:10:23 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue http://www.hollywoodposterframes.comwww.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at http://www.filmfan.comwww.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at http://www.filmfan.comwww.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I think I disagree with Mr. Potokar, although he may disagree with my assertion that we're in disagreement. As a buyer, if I think a poster is worth $10,000, then I'll pay a final price of $10,000 regardless of whether it's at a flea market or fancy auction house. If I'm buying it at a fancy auction house, I will adjust my max bid to $8300 so that my final price comes out to $10,000 after fees. (This assumes that I don't get swept up in the moment and bid twice my supposed maximum.) -rk On Jul 12, 2008, at 7:13 PM, Jeff Potokar wrote: i agree with you, toochis... my feeling is this: the BP is a fee or commission charged and gathered by the auction house, so this fee cannot be added to a poster's final value. here's a hypothetical question: a high end poster is taken to an appraiser and valued at $10K--maximum value. this poster now sells at heritage for that price. but with the 19.5% BP, it costs another 1950.00 to the buyer to be able to obtain the poster. the appraised value of said poster is still $10K. it hasn't suddenly jumped in value by almost 2 thousand dollars, simply because the buyer got it via an auction house--this is the fee the buyer had to pay, in order to acquire his or her $10K poster. have a great weekend all. jeff On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Toochis Morin wrote: Hello all, It's a great question. I guess because the premium is a service fee I don't count it. Because it's a commission. Because I deal in commissions all the time, I don't usually count them as part of the cost of the talent. I agree that the fees are large enough to warrant being part of the price. Toochis - Original Message From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:10:23 PM Subject: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
Hi, When Heritage lists what a poster sold for in the auction archives it doesn't say $5000 plus a BP. It just says $6000 with no mention of the hammer price. Same with any other auction house's auction archives only results listed include the BP. Brek -- Original message -- From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer's premium. They will then infor m me t hat since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
What Claude said. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL -- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
And Todd, and Sue. Phil - Original Message - From: Claude Litton To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL -- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
what Phil said At 09:42 PM 7/12/2008, Phil Edwards wrote: What Claude said. Phil - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Claude Litton To: mailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDUMoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? I try not to get involved with nonsense but this is beyond me. The buyer paid what he wrote a check for to a seller or the auction house. The seller received what he got from the auction house in a check. I just bought a poster from heritage for $1200 plus the buyers premium and the shipping charge to be added. Anyone who thinks I paid less needs math lessons. If you are trying to value a poster based on prices hammered, prices realized after additional charges,etc., you are tilting at windmills. Prices at any given moment are only an indication of the values at that particular time and a guide for the future. There is a major difference between an auction house that advertises well in advance, publishes a beautiful book and holds a live auction which includes bidders from all over via telephone, the floor, the internet and faxes, as opposed to a person not known (ebay hides sellers identities) who puts a poster on ebay for a week and hopes at least two people will engage in a bidding war. CJL -- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112Check out TourTracker.com! Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
Re: [MOPO] O.k....Where do you stand?
I have no idea what HA's policy is on this, but in years gone by and perhaps HA would like to comment here themselves, other auction houses used to list their final sale price - and it included BP, sale commission (yes, some have it going and coming) the cost they charged for the restoration and linen backing to the consignor (at the ratesTHEY charged for the resto, not the actual discount rates most auction houses get from the resto business due to volume of work they give them), the fees that some auction used to (and maybe still do) for the photography of the item and it's inclusion in a catalogue, et al, ad nausea. The final achieved price can often appear grossly inflated - especially on the middle range stuff. And the obvious reason is simply - it allows any auction house to announce a record overall sales totalfor the day, and it makes potential consignors look at the results and perhaps without knowing how that final achieved price was achieved... be attracted to that auction house becuase they seem to get great results. What the consignor gets out of it may be considerably less. If all one has to do is deduct HA's BP and seller's commission (if they have one) then one can see the final bid price. The final sale price is the bid price plus BP. One can factor in shipping if one wants to as the total one paid for the piece as well. There is another side of the coin that might also be worth discussing, however, and one that makes trawling through old Posterprice Alamanacs fascinating - knowing or wondering of the prices realised on the auction house listings by some houses include all thos extraneous add-ons to give a final number. Phil - Original Message - From: Brek Anderson To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] O.kWhere do you stand? Hi, When Heritage lists what a poster sold for in the auction archives it doesn't say $5000 plus a BP. It just says $6000 with no mention of the hammer price. Same with any other auction house's auction archives only results listed include the BP. Brek -- Original message -- From: Susan Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all, I was talking with a fellow collector yesterday about auctions. A subject came up that seems to have some controversary of opinions regarding auction results. Let's say the gavel comes down for an item sold at $500, but with the buyer's premium the total cost is $600. I often hear many people say that item sold for $500, but in my opinion it sold for $600. I have had many people say to me you don't count the buyer's premium, but that sounds ridiculous to me since the overall cost of the item to the buyer was $600. That final value means alot when you have items closing in the thousands and the buyer's premiums add several thousand more. I have customers looking for certain titles and they will quote recent auction sales and often, especially when seeking to buy not sell, quote the gavel price without the buyer's premium. I will mention to them that the price they are quoting isn't the true selling price that you have to include the buyer 's premium. They will then inform me that since they are looking to buy from a private party, the buyer's premium doesn't apply. As I shake my head, I suggest that if you are going to quote auction prices, you have to include the buyer's premium as that is really the final cost of the item and what someone was willing to pay total for said item. For instance, if Breakfast at Tiffany's gaveled at $5000, but the final cost was $6000, how can you say Breakfast at Tiffany's just sold for $5000? I'm rambling, I know..What do you all think? Sue www.hollywoodposterframes.com Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
