Re: [Mpls] dropouts
--- Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neither has progressive educational philosophy helped educators effectively teach children. Many teachers and parents are not even aware of the philosophical assumptions underlying instructional practices. This is understandable in the case of teachers, because many teaching colleges do not even require students to take classes in the philosophy of education. Teacher programs are more indoctrination, than education. First, education is indoctrination. Second, I do not agree that progressive education has failed. I would argue that the public school system that has failed is a system which relies far too much on memorization of facts, preparing for standardized tests, and too little on the students themselves. How many MPS look more like something Dewey was wishing for (progressive) than a factory, or common school? jon kelland bryant __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] dropouts/attendance
Just a little factoid: students who attend school 95% or better are overwhelmingly likely to progress and succeed by most measures, students who attend 85% or less are far more likely to fail - regardless of the educational philosophy of the school. Just curious: whose responsibility do you think it is to get children to school each day? Ann Berget Kingfield 10-10
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
jon kelland wrote: the public school system that has failed relies far too much on memorization of facts It's been popular for a long time to disparage rote learning as not relying on the native intelligence of children. However, there is some rote learning that is necessary. One is the times tables so that one can always figure basic math in one's head or with the aid of a pencil. Another is parsing a sentence and the rules of grammar whatever the language. A third is spelling, particularly in English where it often seems we have no logical standard. (Plus, you could always win the national spelling bee, which is a rush for the kid who wins.) I'm not sorry for having had to learn the Preamble to the Constitution, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, the inscription on the pediment of the statue of liberty, or, my all time favorite, Sweeney Among the Literati. I'm not all that thrilled that I can still recite parts of the Baltimore Catechism, but that's life. The utilitarian value is often obscured, but here's an example: my father was a bookmaker. During October in election years, bookies regularly get arrested so the Sheriff can get some publicity just before the election. The way bookies are caught is through the evidence of betting slips on their person or in their digs/crib/office. My father never got arrested. He kept all the information in his head accurately. No way to arrest him. Course, like all the bookies he paid a little something into the police benevolent fund on a weekly basis. (This was in Cincy. I'm not casting aspersions on the local constabulary.) To quote something I learned by rote at age 10: Sweeney heard the sirens singing, heard the blandishments aringing Stuck his fingers in his ears, ordered several extra beers Chug-a-lugged to clear his throat and answered as follows and I quote: 'I don't understand this patter. I think my soul's a private matter. All this searching and this groaning and this introspective moaning All this cosmic indecision gripes me more than television. Ring around the rosy rose, balance seven on your nose. I would rather have arthritis than catch this neo-Neuman-itis.' You see the problem now, of course. Sweeney's a Communist or worse He has no roots, scorns all tradition, is clearly headed for perdition. by Robert W. Duncan I could go on. WizardMarks, Central ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I promise the list members (and Mr. Atherton) that I won't bait him any more by saying that he relishes attention. And I'll leave the heroism of his posts to the judgment of others. A promise in the first sentence and bait in the second. I'm not sure what the source of the reference to heroism is. Possibly, it was my citing Paths of Glory. Of course, if you've seen this film you'll know that the theme is not heroism. I can also assure you that being a hero to members of the list-sever does not particularly interest me. I believe that like many other posters, that access to the powers-that-be is what most attracts me. I have done more than wonder why the graduation rate of the MPS is no more than 50 percent: I have identified what I believe to be a few root causes, including lack of affordable housing causing transiency, the cultural adjustment of immigration, the stresses and deficiencies associated with poverty. You have identified problems, but have not proposed solutions. Mr. Atherton seems to believe these are not as germane to public school failure as is a self-perpetuating and inefficient bureaucracy staffed by incredibly cynical people out to save their own jobs at the cost of young peoples' education. I'll leave it to list members to determine whose viewpoint is more credible. Of course culture, home environment, and poverty are germane to the failure of the public schools. However, since it is unlikely that we'll be solving poverty any time soon, I think that we should focus on more practical solutions. I, as well, will leave it to list members to decide if the public schools are self-perpetuating and ineffective bureaucracies. Contrary to what Ms. Robson seems to think that I believe, I do think that there are many incredibly skilled and dedicated individuals working in the public schools. However, the philosophical view that the earth was flat, did not aid in the discovery of the Americas. Neither has progressive educational philosophy helped educators effectively teach children. Many teachers and parents are not even aware of the philosophical assumptions underlying instructional practices. This is understandable in the case of teachers, because many teaching colleges do not even require students to take classes in the philosophy of education. Teacher programs are more indoctrination, than education. Mr. Atherton does get somewhat specific in his explanation of continuation schools, but blithely states that because the kids fall under what would be classified as special education, then extra federal dollars would be forthcoming to pay for it. Right now, under the federal IDEA legislation for special education, the feds are supposed to be picking up 40 percent of the costs for their mandates. The actual federal dollars for these mandates amounts to only 15 percent of the cost. (I got my info from Nancy Reder at the National Association of State Directors of Special Education, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] And I won't even charge Mr. Atherton for the link!) Any of the self-serving education professionals Mr. Atherton decries will tell him that lack of federal monies for federal mandates is creating huge funding problems for the MPS and other schools. In other words, his solution isn't that simple. I would agree that at the implementation level my solutions are probably not that simple, however they are practical and doable. In regards to continuation classes and special education, I am well aware of the shortfall in Federal funds for special education program. However the 15% support does exist. The question is what is the difference in salaries between special education teachers and mainstream teachers? And, as I pointed out in my previous post removing problem kids from regular classes will allow funds to be shifted to continuation classes. List members are probably growing weary of this back and forth between Mr. Atherton and me--I think our areas of disagreement are pretty well stated. Any specific responses he wants to make to this post are welcome by me, and for my part will represent the last word on this particular thread. I hope that list members are not weary of this discussion, because the public schools are still there, and failing, and making little meaningful progress. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's true that in my last post I was critical of Mike Atherton's generalized attitude toward the MPS (not him personally, I don't know the man) rather than specific proposals he has made. Partly this was because I suspect he relishes the attention, but even moreso it was because I'm not sure how his proposals would come together in a practical and budgetary sense in the real world of classroom education. Have you ever wondered why after more than thirty years of progressive education we have 50% of high school students failing to graduate? Shipps outlined the dynamics of why reforms fail in her talk. One factor that she cites is what is called the Employment Regime, which consists of all those individuals, teachers, administrators, and others, whose jobs rely on maintaining the status quo. What she doesn't mention are the tactics these people use to defend what is essentially an indefensible position. How can you defend a system with a 50% failure rate? Or in other words, how do you defend something that is not rational? You use irrationality. This is why you will often see the defenders of the public schools using ad hominem arguments. I ask you, of what relevance is it that I might relish the attention generated by this discussion. Does this somehow negatively impact the veracity of my position? I will admit that I relish the chance to introduce new ideas into the debate, but by being outspoken and controversial I can only damage my career, not inherence it. This is because the Employment Regime includes not only public school teachers, it also includes professors and deans in colleges of education who have their own reasons for maintain the status quo. People have asked me why I would take such a risk; it's simply because I know social injustice when I see it and unlike many of my colleges I cannot stand by silently while the young people who need it most get the short end of our educational system. I am an educator because I want to help people, the only person I can help by remaining silent is myself (and my family as my wife reminds me). I suppose my father should never have taken me to see Paths of Glory when I was a kid. [You are an idealist -- and I pity you as I would the village idiot. General Broulard] I can only hope that the people that I rely on will have the ethical fortitude to do the right thing. Deep down inside they know that the true basis of education is the free exchange of ideas. Mr. Atherton has proposed a blizzard of potential reforms and innovations, making it clear that all of them should be tested out as to their viability. Some of them make sense to me--I too have seen the data on English immersion in the Calfornia schools and wonder if it might be something for the MPS to look into. Some of them, such as his recent suggestion that children with a great disparity between their chronological age and level of education be separated out into smaller classes, or, his continuing education proposals for disruptive and otherwise underperfoming students, who would be taught by highly trained professionals, seem expensive and difficult to achieve within the current constraints of public education. Put simply, I don't know how everything he says adds up. I suspect that it would cost more money and seem to remember (I know he'll correct me if I'm wrong here) that the only time he has addressed the cost of public education in real terms was to object to the proposed levy on lowered class size. A blizzard? People have identified problems and I have proposed solutions. I have not mentioned costs, because I believe that for the most part all that is necessary is a change in philosophy and implementation. We already have teachers, classrooms, and busses. I think that it is better to build good morale on success, rather than high pay and fancy buildings (but of course, high pay and fancy buildings always help). Let me explain how continuation schools could be financed. Remember that these schools would enroll students who have behavioral problems and don't fit into a mainstream classes. Many of these students already have learning disabilities (as well as behavioral problems), so they can be classified as disabled. This would allow some Federal dollars to be allocated for their instruction. These extra dollars can be then be used for the additional salary requirements for special education teachers. Removing the students from regular schools can reduce the unneeded expenses associated with problem students. The thrust of my last post was that the MPS faces huge obstacles due to the area's lack of affordable housing, the huge influx of students from other countries, and familial strife associated with poverty--problems that even the most dedicated and well-meaning reforms will have trouble addressing--and that critics of the system should acknowledge that fact, rather than cavalierly asserting that a new wrinkle
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
It's true that in my last post I was critical of Mike Atherton's generalized attitude toward the MPS (not him personally, I don't know the man) rather than specific proposals he has made. Partly this was because I suspect he relishes the attention, but even moreso it was because I'm not sure how his proposals would come together in a practical and budgetary sense in the real world of classroom education. Mr. Atherton has proposed a blizzard of potential reforms and innovations, making it clear that all of them should be tested out as to their viability. Some of them make sense to me--I too have seen the data on English immersion in the Calfornia schools and wonder if it might be something for the MPS to look into. Some of them, such as his recent suggestion that children with a great disparity between their chronological age and level of education be separated out into smaller classes, or, his continuing education proposals for disruptive and otherwise underperfoming students, who would be taught by highly trained professionals, seem expensive and difficult to achieve within the current constraints of public education. Put simply, I don't know how everything he says adds up. I suspect that it would cost more money and seem to remember (I know he'll correct me if I'm wrong here) that the only time he has addressed the cost of public education in real terms was to object to the proposed levy on lowered class size. The thrust of my last post was that the MPS faces huge obstacles due to the area's lack of affordable housing, the huge influx of students from other countries, and familial strife associated with poverty--problems that even the most dedicated and well-meaning reforms will have trouble addressing--and that critics of the system should acknowledge that fact, rather than cavalierly asserting that a new wrinkle here or there will solve the problem. (Maybe Atherton could supply some data to back up his inference that children learn at sufficient levels in war zones; just a website link, since I know that for anything further he wants to be paid for his research.) So let's cut to the chase: Does Atherton see any scenario by which he would send his child to a school that contained a typical cross-section of MPS students? If so, how would that school operate differently than the way MPS currently operates? Does he imagine that this new operation would be more or less expensive (or the same cost) than the current budget of the MPS? And if more, would he support a concomitant increase in his taxes? Answers to these questions would help me and other list members get a more specific sense of Atherton's educational philosophy so that we might get some context and more intelligently agree or disagree with him in the numerous critiques that he will surely file in the future. Britt Robson Lyndale
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
This may seem an odd question but here I go anyway. Judging from Dennis' post the high drop out rate has been a problem for quite a while. Has that drop out rate been configured into the school district budget? In other words, is the current budget dependent on a certain number of students dropping out og high school? What would be the educational/financial impact of a lower drop out rate? It seems to me that this could quickly become a cath-22 situation that more students leads to a tighter budget which leads to a lower quality of education which leads to more drop outs. Just my musings. Megan Thomas St. Paul ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] dropouts
Yes the current drop-out rate is figured into the school districts budget. We do not receive money for students who are not here. The challenge will be having the space for all of the students if the drop-out rate is significantly improved. A challenge, we would welcome! Megan Thomas - Mediaone wrote: This may seem an odd question but here I go anyway. Judging from Dennis' post the high drop out rate has been a problem for quite a while. Has that drop out rate been configured into the school district budget? In other words, is the current budget dependent on a certain number of students dropping out og high school? What would be the educational/financial impact of a lower drop out rate? It seems to me that this could quickly become a cath-22 situation that more students leads to a tighter budget which leads to a lower quality of education which leads to more drop outs. Just my musings. Megan Thomas St. Paul ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] dropouts
This drop out statistic for MPS is about more than MPS. We have systematically decreased social services over the past two decades, reduced accessibility to higher education), have not provided enough affordable housing, and many of our HMO's won't even pay for mental health care. So without support systems for families, higher education, affordable housing or good healthcare - how are we to expect that marginal families will survive in our schools? It's time to get off the surface solution and delve deeper into the real problems behind the statistics. Russ Peterson former Standishite ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
