Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Daniel Sterling]

Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,

At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games I've
played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well and
should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp makes
this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what ports to use,
upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one box instead of
letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems when multiple
xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and both xboxes are
fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, things do work. But
when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.

There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible
things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent device
/ gaming system.

It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's cuz
they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and it
wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support dual-stack.
just a guess there

-- Dan



On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one
> public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
> --
> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
> *To: *"Darin Steffl" 
> *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>
> I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work -
> two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment
> complex or hotel WiFi system, etc.
>
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
>
> 
> This isn't rocket science.
>
> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they
> will have open NAT to play their game and host.
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here
>> knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?
>>
>> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of
>> PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find
>> their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
>>
>> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening
>> ports or having systems that don’t work?
>
>
>

Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Mike Hammett]

Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one public IP, 
at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: "Darin Steffl"  
Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group"  
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM 
Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4 


I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two 
devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or 
hotel WiFi system, etc. 



On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl  wrote: 







This isn't rocket science. 


Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
have open NAT to play their game and host. 


On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net 
> wrote: 


I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why 
gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4? 

We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods? 

It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports 
or having systems that don’t work? 

Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Matt Hoppes]

I don’t game. It’s a plague. But I know plenty who do. 

I’ve often thought the games should just “net split” like IRC does. 

Got lag?  Suddenly you’re playing with a totally different group on the same 
lag as you. 

> On Sep 27, 2020, at 4:04 PM, info--- via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> 
> Call of duty is not a game, it’s a religion and you can’t compare this game 
> to classic voip. If your voip is a bit degraded, you will have a delay of few 
> milliseconds and/or weird background noise.
> In Call of Duty, a few milliseconds delay means you are dead before even 
> knowing it. Also, competitive ppl there like to DDoS your line just to win. 
> This game is full of cheat and hack to make sure the players will win.
>  
> On another hand, you are probably already aware of the 3 NAT types in gaming.
> Type 1 (Open): The system is directly connected to the Internet (no router or 
> firewall), and you should have no problems connecting to other PS4 systems.
> 
> Type 2 (Moderate): The system is connected through a router properly, and 
> generally you won’t have problems.
> 
> Type 3 (Strict): The system is connected through a router without open ports 
> or DMZ setup, and you may have problems related with the connection or voice 
> chat.
> 
> You can check your PS4 nat type in the network status.
>  
> If you have a Type 1 (Open) NAT you are sure that your game will connect 
> easily with others.
>  
> What is your NAT type in your PS4?
>  
> Jean
>  
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt 
> Hoppes
> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:51 PM
> To: i...@ddostest.me
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
> Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>  
> Call of Duty seems to be especially problematic. 
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:45 PM, info--- via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> 
> Not every game are made the same or use the same network engine.
>  
> Which games on PS4 are more problematic in your opinion?
>  
> Jean
>  
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt 
> Hoppes
> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:23 PM
> To: Darin Steffl 
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
> Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>  
> I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - 
> two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment 
> complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
> 
> 
> This isn't rocket science.
>  
> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
> have open NAT to play their game and host. 
>  
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes 
>  wrote:
> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows 
> why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  
> 
> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
> and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
> way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
> 
> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening 
> ports or having systems that don’t work?

RE: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[info--- via NANOG]

Call of duty is not a game, it’s a religion and you can’t compare this game to 
classic voip. If your voip is a bit degraded, you will have a delay of few 
milliseconds and/or weird background noise.

In Call of Duty, a few milliseconds delay means you are dead before even 
knowing it. Also, competitive ppl there like to DDoS your line just to win. 
This game is full of cheat and hack to make sure the players will win.

 

On another hand, you are probably already aware of the 3 NAT types in gaming. 

Type 1 (Open): The system is directly connected to the Internet (no router or 
firewall), and you should have no problems connecting to other PS4 systems.

Type 2 (Moderate): The system is connected through a router properly, and 
generally you won’t have problems.

Type 3 (Strict): The system is connected through a router without open ports or 
DMZ setup, and you may have problems related with the connection or voice chat.

You can check your PS4 nat type in the network status.

 

If you have a Type 1 (Open) NAT you are sure that your game will connect easily 
with others.

 

What is your NAT type in your PS4?

 

Jean

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:51 PM
To: i...@ddostest.me
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

 

Call of Duty seems to be especially problematic. 





On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:45 PM, info--- via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org> > wrote:



Not every game are made the same or use the same network engine. 

 

Which games on PS4 are more problematic in your opinion?

 

Jean

 

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-bounces+jean=ddostest...@nanog.org> > On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:23 PM
To: Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> >
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

 

I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two 
devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or 
hotel WiFi system, etc. 






On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:



This isn't rocket science.

 

Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
have open NAT to play their game and host. 

 

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> > wrote:

I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why 
gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  

We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?

It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports 
or having systems that don’t work?

Re: cloud automation BGP

[Mauricio Rodriguez via NANOG]

Dmitry,

Hello.  ThousandEyes might work for what you're looking for -
https://www.thousandeyes.com/solutions/bgp-and-route-monitoring.


Best Regards,

Mauricio Rodriguez

Founder / Owner

Fletnet Network Engineering (www.fletnet.com)

mauricio.rodrig...@fletnet.com

Office: +1 786-309-1082

Direct: +1 786-309-5493



On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 11:56 AM Dmitry Sherman 
wrote:

> Hello guys,
>
> Can you recommend software or cloud based solution which monitors if a
> prefix is advertised to a peer (via his Looking Glass for example) & if
> traffic is passing thru an interface and if one of them is false it
> announce this prefix via other upstream providers & remove blackholes?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dmitry
>

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Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Matt Hoppes]

Call of Duty seems to be especially problematic. 

> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:45 PM, info--- via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> 
> Not every game are made the same or use the same network engine.
>  
> Which games on PS4 are more problematic in your opinion?
>  
> Jean
>  
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt 
> Hoppes
> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:23 PM
> To: Darin Steffl 
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
> Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4
>  
> I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - 
> two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment 
> complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. 
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
> 
> 
> This isn't rocket science.
>  
> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
> have open NAT to play their game and host. 
>  
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes 
>  wrote:
> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows 
> why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  
> 
> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
> and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
> way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
> 
> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening 
> ports or having systems that don’t work?

RE: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[info--- via NANOG]

Not every game are made the same or use the same network engine. 

 

Which games on PS4 are more problematic in your opinion?

 

Jean

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 2:23 PM
To: Darin Steffl 
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

 

I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two 
devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or 
hotel WiFi system, etc. 





On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:



This isn't rocket science.

 

Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
have open NAT to play their game and host. 

 

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> > wrote:

I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why 
gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  

We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?

It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports 
or having systems that don’t work?

Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[William Herrin]

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:52 AM Matt Hoppes
 wrote:
> I’m curious if anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it 
> comes to IPv4?

They're trying to give your salesmen an opportunity to upsell. "Oh you
have an Z-Console? Those need a gaming enhanced IP address which we'll
happily sell you for an extra $5/month. You have three Z-Consoles? At
the same time? We gotcha covered!"

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Matt Hoppes]

I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two 
devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or 
hotel WiFi system, etc. 

> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
> 
> 
> This isn't rocket science.
> 
> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will 
> have open NAT to play their game and host. 
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes 
>>  wrote:
>> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows 
>> why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  
>> 
>> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
>> and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find 
>> their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
>> 
>> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening 
>> ports or having systems that don’t work?

Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Darin Steffl]

This isn't rocket science.

Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they
will have open NAT to play their game and host.

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows
> why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?
>
> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of
> PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find
> their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?
>
> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening
> ports or having systems that don’t work?

Gaming Consoles and IPv4

[Matt Hoppes]

I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why 
gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  

We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT 
and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their 
way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?

It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports 
or having systems that don’t work?

Re: cloud automation BGP

[William Herrin]

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 8:53 AM Dmitry Sherman  wrote:
> Can you recommend software or cloud based solution which monitors if a prefix 
> is advertised to a peer (via his Looking Glass for example) & if traffic is 
> passing thru an interface and if one of them is false it announce this prefix 
> via other upstream providers & remove blackholes?

Hello,

You seem to be looking for external automation to do something that's
baked into BGP. Any particular reason?

* Announce to all upstreams all the time.
* Use prepends on the less-preffered upstreams.
* If the less preferred upstream is localprefing to use your routes
despite the prepend, ask them what BGP community you should set to
disable that behavior.
* If an upstream propagates your route without passing your packets
often enough to need automation, cancel the contract.


I could see value in something local that measures things like packet
loss rates and cuts the primary if they get higher than acceptable,
but that wouldn't be a cloud service because the cloud wouldn't be
reliably reachable when you need to act on that information.

Regards,
Bill Herrin




--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

cloud automation BGP

[Dmitry Sherman]

Hello guys,
Can you recommend software or cloud based solution which monitors if a prefix 
is advertised to a peer (via his Looking Glass for example) & if traffic is 
passing thru an interface and if one of them is false it announce this prefix 
via other upstream providers & remove blackholes?

Thanks.
Dmitry