Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Keith Medcalf" 

>>Is nested virtualization really a thing?
> 
> Real Computers have been running VMs inside VMs for about 50 years.  Bringing
> this technology to "bitty boxes" is a recent thing.

Sure, but VM is a bit more mature than KVM.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Raymond Burkholder]

On 1/19/21 10:56 AM, Bryan Holloway wrote:

On 1/19/21 6:33 PM, Brandon Martin wrote:

On 1/19/21 11:44 AM, William Herrin wrote:

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.
It's worth pointing out that nested virtualization is a thing these 
days, and some providers might even support it!  That means you could 
buy one large instance and sub-divide it yourself into multiple VMs 
if you want to.


In practice, unless you need that flexibility to dynamically spin the 
VMs up and down with various specs AND don't want to or cannot use a 
provider's API for that, I'm not sure why you'd want to if you didn't 
have to for some crazy reason.


I mean, I'm not exactly trying to render Pixar's latest movie ... just 
trying to push some bits around (light web-sites, some e-mail ...)
There is actually a happy medium.  Spin up a large VM.  Install 
Proxmox.  But instead of spinning up heavy duty VM in KVM, or such, 
Proxmox knows how to spin up LXC containers.  You get light performant 
segregation between applications without the duplication of kernel.


Of course, if you need to run some sort of windows thingy that WinHQ 
can't solve, then you have the ability to spin up a 'heavy' VM.


For native Linux apps, as I know how to do container networking 
directly, many times I just skip the ProxMox abstraction and run the LXC 
commands and IP commands directly.


Raymond Burkholder
blog: https://blog.raymond.burkholder.net

RE: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Keith Medcalf]

>Is nested virtualization really a thing?

Real Computers have been running VMs inside VMs for about 50 years.  Bringing 
this technology to "bitty boxes" is a recent thing.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is the policy about sharing email offlist?

[Javier J]

Sounds like someone has more time to talk/type about political dogma with
random strangers than the purpose of this mailing list.

- J

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 6:58 AM J. Hellenthal 
wrote:

> Yeah he did the same dolt act to me to. Just a really bored dolt looking
> for nonsense with a crush on AOC.
>
> --
>  J. Hellenthal
>
> The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says
> a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 00:40, Javier J  wrote:
>
> 
> you too, why are you emailing me?
>
> I didn't ask anyone to contact me off list.
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:53 PM Sam Silvester 
> wrote:
>
>> Archives are browsable by anybody. How do you expect to keep political
>> types out of the discussion?
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 11:36 am, Javier J 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I couldn't agree more.
>>> If I want to talk politics, I will go to other places. I use this
>>> mailing list to talk about things relevant to technology and operation of
>>> networks in North American and other places.
>>>
>>> - Javier
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:19 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:
>>>
 javier,

 I concur. What we don’t need on Nanog is outside parties deciding to
 “reign in” our discussions on political grounds!

  -mel beckman

 On Jan 18, 2021, at 12:38 PM, Javier J 
 wrote:

 
 I agree 100%.

 I know the emails on this list are public and that is fine.  What I
 don't appreciate is that now my email address is in some politico's address
 list because of someone's behavior.

 - Javier

 On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:20 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:

> There's a world of difference between "don't expect list posts to be
> private to list members" and "don't forward the list to
> autoresponders."
> The stupidity of the latter, if it can be tracked down to who did it,
> should result in their removal from the list, at least until they
> explain
> what caused them to do that and have undone it.
>
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021, Paul Timmins wrote:
>
> > The list has public archives. Draw your own conclusions on the
> policy.
> >
> > https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/
> >
> > On 1/18/21 2:40 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote:
> >>  Not under that impression at all. That's very different from "what
> is the
> >>  policy" - at least in the groups I run, if the policy is "no
> sharing
> >>  offlist" and then someone does, there are consequences for that
> someone.
> >>  Anne
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Anne P. Mitchell,  Attorney at Law
> >>  Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> >>  Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal
> anti-spam law)
> >>  Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> >>  Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> >>  Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
> >>
> >
>
> --
>   Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
>   StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
> _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Matt Harris]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:27 PM Brandon Martin 
wrote:

> On 1/19/21 12:56 PM, Bryan Holloway wrote:
> >
> > I'm very curious about your assertion:
> >
> > Is nested virtualization really a thing?
> >
> > I mean, I'm not exactly trying to render Pixar's latest movie ... just
> > trying to push some bits around (light web-sites, some e-mail ...)
> >
> > It just seems inherently prone to issues.
> >
> > Could you back this up with any white-papers or documentation on the
> > subject? I'm genuinely interested ...
>
> With KVM, if you have a recent kernel and qemu, it pretty much "just
> works" on supported hardware.  AFAIK Xen supports "Xen on Xen", too, but
> I haven't used it and don't know much about it.
>
> The use case is pretty much exactly this.  You (the product consumer)
> are handed a product that amounts to a virtual machine on somebody
> else's $BIGBOX.  You want to deploy multiple virtual machines where you
> have direct control over their lifecycle, configuration, etc. and can
> bring in additional I/O resources, etc. at the hypervisor level
> (consider that, with KVM, the Linux kernel basically IS the hypervisor).
>   So, you run one or more VMs inside the top level VM that you're handed.
>
> It's full of lots of little wiggles and can be a pain to maintain if you
> have visibility into both levels of the equation, but it does seem to
> work and is surprisingly performant.
>

Nested virtualization is, however, pretty widely deployed for production
workloads. Take for instance Juniper's vSRX and vMX products. Both require
nested virtualization support as they run a Wind River Linux instance with
KVM directly on your virtual machine which may be on vmware, KVM, Hyper-V,
etc, and then Junos running nested within the WRL KVM virtual machine. So
it's not like this is something that's uncommon or not trustworthy, lots of
us are doing it every day with no serious problems and entirely acceptable
performance on modern hardware. I run a decent fleet of vSRX's on Hyper-V
and it works well. YMMV as always based on your own platform, but I don't
think that nested virtualization is something that we should be steering
clear of at this point.

- mdh

Matt Harris|Infrastructure Lead Engineer
816-256-5446|Direct
Looking for something?
Helpdesk Portal|Email Support|Billing Portal
We build and deliver end-to-end IT solutions.

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Brandon Martin]

On 1/19/21 12:56 PM, Bryan Holloway wrote:


I'm very curious about your assertion:

Is nested virtualization really a thing?

I mean, I'm not exactly trying to render Pixar's latest movie ... just 
trying to push some bits around (light web-sites, some e-mail ...)


It just seems inherently prone to issues.

Could you back this up with any white-papers or documentation on the 
subject? I'm genuinely interested ...


With KVM, if you have a recent kernel and qemu, it pretty much "just 
works" on supported hardware.  AFAIK Xen supports "Xen on Xen", too, but 
I haven't used it and don't know much about it.


The use case is pretty much exactly this.  You (the product consumer) 
are handed a product that amounts to a virtual machine on somebody 
else's $BIGBOX.  You want to deploy multiple virtual machines where you 
have direct control over their lifecycle, configuration, etc. and can 
bring in additional I/O resources, etc. at the hypervisor level 
(consider that, with KVM, the Linux kernel basically IS the hypervisor). 
 So, you run one or more VMs inside the top level VM that you're handed.


It's full of lots of little wiggles and can be a pain to maintain if you 
have visibility into both levels of the equation, but it does seem to 
work and is surprisingly performant.


See e.g. https://tips.graphica.com.au/nested-kvm/
--
Brandon Martin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Ward Vandewege]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 10:50:31AM -0800, William Herrin wrote:
> I use Vultr for my primary BGP exit and have found it largely
> painless. The VMs I have there DO NOT support nested virtualization.

That's odd, I have run Xen in standard Vultr VMs, and it works. It's not
fast, though.

Thanks,
Ward.

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Barnabas Toth via NANOG]

I would look at https://www.webhostingtalk.com forums and specifically the
"Dedicated Hosting Offers" forums
https://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36 for providers and
deals.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 1:34 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Maybe this will help:
>
> I use vultr.   I have also brought my own address space and am announcing
> it to them from one of their instances (vm's) with BGP.   They are set up
> such that you can use a private AS if you don't have your own and are ok
> with them announcing this from their AS (after they strip off the private
> as).
>
> If you told me right this second that you needed a Ubuntu Server spun up,
> I could be logged into the interface, select a location/size and have it
> running within 60 seconds - with the complete Ubuntu install done.  Most of
> my instances are running under their $5 plan which is 25GB of disk space, 1
> CPU, 1G of memory, and 1TB of transfer.  Oh, and one or two are on the $6
> plan which has slightly more disk and is on a faster CPU.  They
> obviously have various options that go up from there all the way to
> dedicated servers. In a couple of locations, they also have a smaller
> IPv6-only server for $2.50.
>
> I haven't found anything I need anything larger than their $5 or $6 plan
> for, but I also am not running any heavy workloads.   Basically a static
> webpage, a ticketing system, a couple of DNS servers, and the like.   I'm
> currently testing voip(Asterisk) on the platform as well, and based on
> testing so far will likely be moving it into full production in the next
> few weeks.
>
> I used ubuntu as an example, they also have all of the mainstream linux
> distros and the BSD's and I think in some locations windows available.
> They also have a pretty good selection of preconfigured applications (aka
> common CMS'es, eCommerce platforms, etc).   All of these are in the ~60
> seconds to spin up category. You can also upload your own ISO or use a
> pre-uploaded one from their library of less commonly used
> applications/operating systems.
>
> I've been running on the platform for about a year after having enough of
> a shared hosting provider for some of the stuff and running on my own metal
> in a datacenter for other stuff.   So far I'm very happy with them.
>
> If you want to try them out, I noticed as I logged in to look up what the
> $5 service includes that they're running a a "refer a friend and they get
> $100 to test the service" promo.  I normally don't pass on referral codes
> but I figured if you're evaluating this you might want the $100 credit (for
> up to 30 days of service).   If so, the link for that offer is
> https://www.vultr.com/?ref=8776996-6G .
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 10:39 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
>
>> You make an excellent point, Martijn ... (and I suspect this is what
>> Bill was pointing out ...)
>>
>> Virtualization on top of virtualization is inherently not the best idea.
>>
>> I guess I'm looking for flexibility in the sense of being able to spin
>> up additional VMs at my leisure. In which case #2 could be suitable in
>> the right environment.
>>
>> ... in which case SLAs would be tantamount to success ...
>>
>> So ... that said, any recommendations?  :)
>>
>>
>> On 1/19/21 6:32 PM, Martijn Schmidt wrote:
>> > For #1, are you trying to do "Cloud-ception" e.g. running your own
>> > proxmox virtualization on top of an already virtual machine, so that
>> > you're basically two layers deep?
>> >
>> > For #2, of course you need to be able to survive a hardware failure
>> > (using RAID1 or some flavour of DRBD for example) but having to think
>> > about such things is the "trade-off" of having access to the bare-metal
>> > layer.. it does have advantages, for example if you want to install
>> your
>> > own virtualization layer without any involvement from the hosting
>> > provider. You'd usually have agreements with the hosting provider about
>> > how/when hardware replacements would be done.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Martijn
>> > 
>> > *From:* NANOG  on
>> behalf
>> > of Bryan Holloway 
>> > *Sent:* 19 January 2021 18:18
>> > *To:* William Herrin 
>> > *Cc:* NANOG list 
>> > *Subject:* Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?
>> > Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
>> > prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
>> > vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?
>> >
>> > If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm
>> > looking for, if they exist.
>> >
>> > #2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies,
>> > it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.
>> >
>> > #3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway 
>> wrote:
>> 

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Brandon Martin]

On 1/19/21 1:50 PM, William Herrin wrote:

I haven't used Proxmox but from a 60 second glance through Google that
looks like you're asking for nested virtualization. If it works at
all, you'd take a double-hit on everything that wants to run in ring
0, a double-hit on virtualized I/O and a double-hit for OS overhead
making the result more than a little sluggish. Kinda has "bad idea"
written all over it.


KVM, at least, and I think Xen as well, have some features for 
"shunting" I/O and hypervisor calls through to the bare-metal hypervisor 
where possible and avoiding double processing and trampolining.  It's 
not nearly as bad as you might think in terms of performance as long as 
the hardware supports it (nested page tables being the big one).  The 
little I've played with it mostly has proven to be an administrative 
hassle rather than performance.


I would not recommend mixing and matching hypervisors (e.g. Xen on KVM 
or vice-versa), though.  I'm not even sure you can do so meaningfully, 
though I bet someone's working on it.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Tom Beecher]

Proxmox specifically isn't much more than a wrapper for standard Linux KVM,
which can support nested virtualization. In my limited experience with
nesting, it doesn't work half bad as one would expect, but I haven't used
it in a stressed environment with anything substantial running that way.


On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 1:53 PM William Herrin  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 9:18 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> > Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
> > prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
> > vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> I haven't used Proxmox but from a 60 second glance through Google that
> looks like you're asking for nested virtualization. If it works at
> all, you'd take a double-hit on everything that wants to run in ring
> 0, a double-hit on virtualized I/O and a double-hit for OS overhead
> making the result more than a little sluggish. Kinda has "bad idea"
> written all over it.
>
> As I understand it, you can "cat /sys/module/kvm*/parameters/nested"
> in one of the service provider's VMs and if the answer is "1" or "Y"
> for the CPU type which matches the exposed CPU then what you're asking
> for will probably work. For some definition of work anyway.
>
>
> I use Vultr for my primary BGP exit and have found it largely
> painless. The VMs I have there DO NOT support nested virtualization.
> They do claim a bare metal offering but it's currently listed as sold
> out in all of their data centers. They also claim to provide mountable
> block storage for compute instances up to 10TB per, but I haven't
> worked with that feature, I presume it only applies to virtual
> servers, and it looks like it's only available in one of their data
> centers.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
>
> --
> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 9:18 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
> prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
> vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?

Hi Bryan,

I haven't used Proxmox but from a 60 second glance through Google that
looks like you're asking for nested virtualization. If it works at
all, you'd take a double-hit on everything that wants to run in ring
0, a double-hit on virtualized I/O and a double-hit for OS overhead
making the result more than a little sluggish. Kinda has "bad idea"
written all over it.

As I understand it, you can "cat /sys/module/kvm*/parameters/nested"
in one of the service provider's VMs and if the answer is "1" or "Y"
for the CPU type which matches the exposed CPU then what you're asking
for will probably work. For some definition of work anyway.


I use Vultr for my primary BGP exit and have found it largely
painless. The VMs I have there DO NOT support nested virtualization.
They do claim a bare metal offering but it's currently listed as sold
out in all of their data centers. They also claim to provide mountable
block storage for compute instances up to 10TB per, but I haven't
worked with that feature, I presume it only applies to virtual
servers, and it looks like it's only available in one of their data
centers.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



--
Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Maybe this will help:

I use vultr.   I have also brought my own address space and am announcing
it to them from one of their instances (vm's) with BGP.   They are set up
such that you can use a private AS if you don't have your own and are ok
with them announcing this from their AS (after they strip off the private
as).

If you told me right this second that you needed a Ubuntu Server spun up, I
could be logged into the interface, select a location/size and have it
running within 60 seconds - with the complete Ubuntu install done.  Most of
my instances are running under their $5 plan which is 25GB of disk space, 1
CPU, 1G of memory, and 1TB of transfer.  Oh, and one or two are on the $6
plan which has slightly more disk and is on a faster CPU.  They
obviously have various options that go up from there all the way to
dedicated servers. In a couple of locations, they also have a smaller
IPv6-only server for $2.50.

I haven't found anything I need anything larger than their $5 or $6 plan
for, but I also am not running any heavy workloads.   Basically a static
webpage, a ticketing system, a couple of DNS servers, and the like.   I'm
currently testing voip(Asterisk) on the platform as well, and based on
testing so far will likely be moving it into full production in the next
few weeks.

I used ubuntu as an example, they also have all of the mainstream linux
distros and the BSD's and I think in some locations windows available.
They also have a pretty good selection of preconfigured applications (aka
common CMS'es, eCommerce platforms, etc).   All of these are in the ~60
seconds to spin up category. You can also upload your own ISO or use a
pre-uploaded one from their library of less commonly used
applications/operating systems.

I've been running on the platform for about a year after having enough of a
shared hosting provider for some of the stuff and running on my own metal
in a datacenter for other stuff.   So far I'm very happy with them.

If you want to try them out, I noticed as I logged in to look up what the
$5 service includes that they're running a a "refer a friend and they get
$100 to test the service" promo.  I normally don't pass on referral codes
but I figured if you're evaluating this you might want the $100 credit (for
up to 30 days of service).   If so, the link for that offer is
https://www.vultr.com/?ref=8776996-6G .

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 10:39 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:

> You make an excellent point, Martijn ... (and I suspect this is what
> Bill was pointing out ...)
>
> Virtualization on top of virtualization is inherently not the best idea.
>
> I guess I'm looking for flexibility in the sense of being able to spin
> up additional VMs at my leisure. In which case #2 could be suitable in
> the right environment.
>
> ... in which case SLAs would be tantamount to success ...
>
> So ... that said, any recommendations?  :)
>
>
> On 1/19/21 6:32 PM, Martijn Schmidt wrote:
> > For #1, are you trying to do "Cloud-ception" e.g. running your own
> > proxmox virtualization on top of an already virtual machine, so that
> > you're basically two layers deep?
> >
> > For #2, of course you need to be able to survive a hardware failure
> > (using RAID1 or some flavour of DRBD for example) but having to think
> > about such things is the "trade-off" of having access to the bare-metal
> > layer.. it does have advantages, for example if you want to install your
> > own virtualization layer without any involvement from the hosting
> > provider. You'd usually have agreements with the hosting provider about
> > how/when hardware replacements would be done.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Martijn
> > 
> > *From:* NANOG  on
> behalf
> > of Bryan Holloway 
> > *Sent:* 19 January 2021 18:18
> > *To:* William Herrin 
> > *Cc:* NANOG list 
> > *Subject:* Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?
> > Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
> > prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
> > vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?
> >
> > If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm
> > looking for, if they exist.
> >
> > #2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies,
> > it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.
> >
> > #3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.
> >
> >
> > On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:
> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> >>> I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what
> I'm
> >>> doing now.
> >>
> >> Hi Bryan,
> >>
> >> Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
> >> adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
> >> storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
> >> operating systems or hypervisors.
> >>
> >> Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. 

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Michael Thomas]

On 1/19/21 9:33 AM, Brandon Martin wrote:

On 1/19/21 11:44 AM, William Herrin wrote:

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.


It's worth pointing out that nested virtualization is a thing these 
days, and some providers might even support it!  That means you could 
buy one large instance and sub-divide it yourself into multiple VMs if 
you want to.


In practice, unless you need that flexibility to dynamically spin the 
VMs up and down with various specs AND don't want to or cannot use a 
provider's API for that, I'm not sure why you'd want to if you didn't 
have to for some crazy reason.



Except for the problem that you pay a premium for larger vm's. you can't 
compete with t instances on aws, for starters.


Mike

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Bryan Holloway]

On 1/19/21 6:33 PM, Brandon Martin wrote:


On 1/19/21 11:44 AM, William Herrin wrote:



Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.




It's worth pointing out that nested virtualization is a thing these 
days, and some providers might even support it!  That means you could 
buy one large instance and sub-divide it yourself into multiple VMs if 
you want to.


In practice, unless you need that flexibility to dynamically spin the 
VMs up and down with various specs AND don't want to or cannot use a 
provider's API for that, I'm not sure why you'd want to if you didn't 
have to for some crazy reason.


I'm very curious about your assertion:

Is nested virtualization really a thing?

I mean, I'm not exactly trying to render Pixar's latest movie ... just 
trying to push some bits around (light web-sites, some e-mail ...)


It just seems inherently prone to issues.

Could you back this up with any white-papers or documentation on the 
subject? I'm genuinely interested ...


- bryan

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Michael K. Spears]

AceHost.com or Hivelocity.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Get Outlook for Android


From: NANOG  on behalf of Bryan 
Holloway 
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 12:37:14 PM
To: Martijn Schmidt ; William Herrin 
Cc: NANOG list 
Subject: Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

You make an excellent point, Martijn ... (and I suspect this is what
Bill was pointing out ...)

Virtualization on top of virtualization is inherently not the best idea.

I guess I'm looking for flexibility in the sense of being able to spin
up additional VMs at my leisure. In which case #2 could be suitable in
the right environment.

... in which case SLAs would be tantamount to success ...

So ... that said, any recommendations?  :)


On 1/19/21 6:32 PM, Martijn Schmidt wrote:
> For #1, are you trying to do "Cloud-ception" e.g. running your own
> proxmox virtualization on top of an already virtual machine, so that
> you're basically two layers deep?
>
> For #2, of course you need to be able to survive a hardware failure
> (using RAID1 or some flavour of DRBD for example) but having to think
> about such things is the "trade-off" of having access to the bare-metal
> layer.. it does have advantages, for example if you want to install your
> own virtualization layer without any involvement from the hosting
> provider. You'd usually have agreements with the hosting provider about
> how/when hardware replacements would be done.
>
> Best regards,
> Martijn
> 
> *From:* NANOG  on behalf
> of Bryan Holloway 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2021 18:18
> *To:* William Herrin 
> *Cc:* NANOG list 
> *Subject:* Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?
> Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
> prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
> vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?
>
> If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm
> looking for, if they exist.
>
> #2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies,
> it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.
>
> #3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.
>
>
> On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
>>> I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm
>>> doing now.
>>
>> Hi Bryan,
>>
>> Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
>> adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
>> storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
>> operating systems or hypervisors.
>>
>> Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on
>> the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers.
>> You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the
>> service provider.
>>
>> Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical
>> equipment in your custom configuration.
>>
>> With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable
>> for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which
>> of these do you seek?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bill Herrin
>>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Bryan Holloway]

You make an excellent point, Martijn ... (and I suspect this is what 
Bill was pointing out ...)


Virtualization on top of virtualization is inherently not the best idea.

I guess I'm looking for flexibility in the sense of being able to spin 
up additional VMs at my leisure. In which case #2 could be suitable in 
the right environment.


... in which case SLAs would be tantamount to success ...

So ... that said, any recommendations?  :)


On 1/19/21 6:32 PM, Martijn Schmidt wrote:
For #1, are you trying to do "Cloud-ception" e.g. running your own 
proxmox virtualization on top of an already virtual machine, so that 
you're basically two layers deep?


For #2, of course you need to be able to survive a hardware failure 
(using RAID1 or some flavour of DRBD for example) but having to think 
about such things is the "trade-off" of having access to the bare-metal 
layer.. it does have advantages, for example if you want to install your 
own virtualization layer without any involvement from the hosting 
provider. You'd usually have agreements with the hosting provider about 
how/when hardware replacements would be done.


Best regards,
Martijn

*From:* NANOG  on behalf 
of Bryan Holloway 

*Sent:* 19 January 2021 18:18
*To:* William Herrin 
*Cc:* NANOG list 
*Subject:* Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?
Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?

If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm
looking for, if they exist.

#2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies,
it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.

#3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.


On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:

I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm
doing now.


Hi Bryan,

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.

Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on
the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers.
You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the
service provider.

Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical
equipment in your custom configuration.

With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable
for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which
of these do you seek?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Brandon Martin]

On 1/19/21 11:44 AM, William Herrin wrote:

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.


It's worth pointing out that nested virtualization is a thing these 
days, and some providers might even support it!  That means you could 
buy one large instance and sub-divide it yourself into multiple VMs if 
you want to.


In practice, unless you need that flexibility to dynamically spin the 
VMs up and down with various specs AND don't want to or cannot use a 
provider's API for that, I'm not sure why you'd want to if you didn't 
have to for some crazy reason.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Martijn Schmidt via NANOG]

For #1, are you trying to do "Cloud-ception" e.g. running your own proxmox 
virtualization on top of an already virtual machine, so that you're basically 
two layers deep?

For #2, of course you need to be able to survive a hardware failure (using 
RAID1 or some flavour of DRBD for example) but having to think about such 
things is the "trade-off" of having access to the bare-metal layer.. it does 
have advantages, for example if you want to install your own virtualization 
layer without any involvement from the hosting provider. You'd usually have 
agreements with the hosting provider about how/when hardware replacements would 
be done.

Best regards,
Martijn

From: NANOG  on behalf of Bryan 
Holloway 
Sent: 19 January 2021 18:18
To: William Herrin 
Cc: NANOG list 
Subject: Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what
prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian)
vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?

If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm
looking for, if they exist.

#2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies,
it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.

#3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.


On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
>> I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm
>> doing now.
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
> adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
> storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
> operating systems or hypervisors.
>
> Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on
> the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers.
> You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the
> service provider.
>
> Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical
> equipment in your custom configuration.
>
> With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable
> for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which
> of these do you seek?
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Mike Hammett]

I would assume that anyone providing a dedicated server has the means to 
facilitate timely hardware replacements. Ask for their SLA on that. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Bryan Holloway"  
To: "William Herrin"  
Cc: "NANOG list"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 11:18:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Hosting recommendations ... ? 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what 
prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian) 
vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server? 

If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm 
looking for, if they exist. 

#2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies, 
it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas. 

#3 I do now. Trying to move away from that. 


On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote: 
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote: 
>> I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm 
>> doing now. 
> 
> Hi Bryan, 
> 
> Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally 
> adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and 
> storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host 
> operating systems or hypervisors. 
> 
> Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on 
> the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers. 
> You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the 
> service provider. 
> 
> Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical 
> equipment in your custom configuration. 
> 
> With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable 
> for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which 
> of these do you seek? 
> 
> Regards, 
> Bill Herrin 
> 

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Josh Luthman]

I'm not sure spammers and AS paths really go together.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:27 AM William Herrin  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:20 AM Josh Luthman
>  wrote:
> > I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet
> you're providing your own IP space.
>
> Hi Josh,
>
> I'm not above discarding announcements with a "bulletproof" hoster in
> the AS path. Are you?
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:20 AM Josh Luthman
>  wrote:
> >
> > I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet
> you're providing your own IP space.
> >
> > It sounds more to me like you want to put 2-3 boxes in a data center.
> For that pretty much any decent sized data center in any state would work
> for the US.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Herrin  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:45 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> >> > Looking for a reputable (i.e., no hosting of spammers or other
> >> > ne'er-do-wells) hosting provider with possibly a global footprint. If
> >> > not, US is #1 desire; EU #2.
> >> >
> >>
> >> > * Desire to host 2-3 hypervisors, probably running something akin to
> >> > Proxmox ...
> >> > * ~5-10TB storage with the possibility of expansion ...
> >>
> >> Howdy,
> >>
> >> You should clarify what sort of hosting service you're looking for. A
> >> normal cloud service won't see you running your own hypervisors. A
> >> server farm will see you deploy your own hardware with whatever
> >> storage you choose to install. Only a "bare metal" cloud service would
> >> meet both of your listed requirements, where you lease both the
> >> equipment and hosting service from the provider. However, combined
> >> with your BGP requirement your options are very limited and expanding
> >> storage usually means "lease a different one of our servers."
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Bill Herrin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
>
>
>
> --
> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Bryan Holloway]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but in your #1 example "Cloud", what 
prevents me from running a Proxmox ISO (which is more or less Debian) 
vs. a "standard" Debian install on the provider's virtual server?


If I can, I've succeeded. That is the sort of hosting provider I'm 
looking for, if they exist.


#2 would be suitable, but it seems to be that if leased bare-metal dies, 
it will be some time for ETR. Less desirable, but I'm open to ideas.


#3 I do now. Trying to move away from that.


On 1/19/21 5:44 PM, William Herrin wrote:

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:

I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm
doing now.


Hi Bryan,

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.

Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on
the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers.
You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the
service provider.

Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical
equipment in your custom configuration.

With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable
for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which
of these do you seek?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:31 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm
> doing now.

Hi Bryan,

Cloud = you get virtual servers with virtual storage, generally
adjustable to meet your needs. You manage the operating systems and
storage within the virtual environment. You DO NOT manage the host
operating systems or hypervisors.

Bare metal = you lease physical equipment. You manage all software on
the equipment including any hypervisors needed to run virtual servers.
You DO NOT deal with hardware break/fix, that problem belongs to the
service provider.

Colocation = You lease space in a data center. You provide physical
equipment in your custom configuration.

With this terminology, at least one of your requirements is unmeetable
for contradicting the others. So I ask again for clarification: which
of these do you seek?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Bryan Holloway]

Fair questions -- answers in-line ...


On 1/19/21 5:19 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet 
you're providing your own IP space.


I care about the hosting environment's upstreams' opinions of the 
downstream.


That is, I don't want to be in a situation where some jamoke (or 
jamokes) does something which affects me from a collateral damage 
standpoint.


It sounds more to me like you want to put 2-3 boxes in a data center.  
For that pretty much any decent sized data center in any state would 
work for the US.


I would like to stop personally dealing with bare-metal. That's what I'm 
doing now.

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:20 AM Josh Luthman
 wrote:
> I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet you're 
> providing your own IP space.

Hi Josh,

I'm not above discarding announcements with a "bulletproof" hoster in
the AS path. Are you?

Regards,
Bill Herrin

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:20 AM Josh Luthman
 wrote:
>
> I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet you're 
> providing your own IP space.
>
> It sounds more to me like you want to put 2-3 boxes in a data center.  For 
> that pretty much any decent sized data center in any state would work for the 
> US.
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Herrin  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:45 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
>> > Looking for a reputable (i.e., no hosting of spammers or other
>> > ne'er-do-wells) hosting provider with possibly a global footprint. If
>> > not, US is #1 desire; EU #2.
>> >
>>
>> > * Desire to host 2-3 hypervisors, probably running something akin to
>> > Proxmox ...
>> > * ~5-10TB storage with the possibility of expansion ...
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> You should clarify what sort of hosting service you're looking for. A
>> normal cloud service won't see you running your own hypervisors. A
>> server farm will see you deploy your own hardware with whatever
>> storage you choose to install. Only a "bare metal" cloud service would
>> meet both of your listed requirements, where you lease both the
>> equipment and hosting service from the provider. However, combined
>> with your BGP requirement your options are very limited and expanding
>> storage usually means "lease a different one of our servers."
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bill Herrin
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/



-- 
Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Josh Luthman]

I'm kind of confused when your concern is the reputability and yet you're
providing your own IP space.

It sounds more to me like you want to put 2-3 boxes in a data center.  For
that pretty much any decent sized data center in any state would work for
the US.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 11:14 AM William Herrin  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:45 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> > Looking for a reputable (i.e., no hosting of spammers or other
> > ne'er-do-wells) hosting provider with possibly a global footprint. If
> > not, US is #1 desire; EU #2.
> >
>
> > * Desire to host 2-3 hypervisors, probably running something akin to
> > Proxmox ...
> > * ~5-10TB storage with the possibility of expansion ...
>
> Howdy,
>
> You should clarify what sort of hosting service you're looking for. A
> normal cloud service won't see you running your own hypervisors. A
> server farm will see you deploy your own hardware with whatever
> storage you choose to install. Only a "bare metal" cloud service would
> meet both of your listed requirements, where you lease both the
> equipment and hosting service from the provider. However, combined
> with your BGP requirement your options are very limited and expanding
> storage usually means "lease a different one of our servers."
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
>
> --
> Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
>

Re: Hosting recommendations ... ?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:45 AM Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> Looking for a reputable (i.e., no hosting of spammers or other
> ne'er-do-wells) hosting provider with possibly a global footprint. If
> not, US is #1 desire; EU #2.
>

> * Desire to host 2-3 hypervisors, probably running something akin to
> Proxmox ...
> * ~5-10TB storage with the possibility of expansion ...

Howdy,

You should clarify what sort of hosting service you're looking for. A
normal cloud service won't see you running your own hypervisors. A
server farm will see you deploy your own hardware with whatever
storage you choose to install. Only a "bare metal" cloud service would
meet both of your listed requirements, where you lease both the
equipment and hosting service from the provider. However, combined
with your BGP requirement your options are very limited and expanding
storage usually means "lease a different one of our servers."

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
Hire me! https://bill.herrin.us/resume/

Hosting recommendations ... ?

[Bryan Holloway]

Hey gang ...

Looking for a reputable (i.e., no hosting of spammers or other 
ne'er-do-wells) hosting provider with possibly a global footprint. If 
not, US is #1 desire; EU #2.


Requirements, more or less:

* Desire to host 2-3 hypervisors, probably running something akin to 
Proxmox ...


* ~5-10TB storage with the possibility of expansion ...

* 1G hand-off / 100 Mbps or less commit ... i.e., low BW, but burstable.

* Bringing my own IP space and need to be able to peer BGP with vendor.

* Cross-DC redundancy or mirroring or somesuch desirable.

* Backups are of interest, although I can do my own if need be.

Any recommendations that are non-Amazonian? Feel free to reach out 
off-list if you prefer.


#1 requirement ... the reputability part ...

Thank you all in advance!

- bryan

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/19/21 17:15, Sean Donelan wrote:


There is only one problem in engineering -- scaling.

Country internet shutdowns never go to zero.  There's usually 5% to 
15% left over connectivity. There are always a few embassies, 
international companies, NGOs and even government offices itself with 
left over service.


Satellites (even next-gen) are great for small outposts, ships, oil 
platforms.  But have scaling problems, i.e. billing millions of 
customers without the government noticing.  Large capacity earth 
stations and cable landing sites are noticable.


The mobile phone carriers and ISPs serving the other million(s) 
customers will obey the government shutdown orders. Its very difficult 
(cost, techincally, access) for the ordinary consumer to get around 
their own government's orders.  Yes, the rich can always afford/get 
sat-phones and sat-modems.


When an autocratic government notices too many people using something 
else, it can become very painful for those subscribers.


And of course, international treaties (ITU) covering satellites and 
international radio transmissions are written by governments.


Satellite solutions are not ideal for large scale use-cases. These would 
be for the odd business, the odd whale, that sort of thing.


At scale, satellite doesn't work anymore, not even in Africa.

That said, it's easy to hit people where it hurts by getting the mobile 
operators to block access, especially in Africa. That is how most people 
get (and stay) connected. For a tiresome gubbermint, the extra 5% - 15% 
connectivity that remains after all the blocking dust has settled, is a 
small price to pay to keep the remaining 85% - 95% disconnected.


Mark.

Re: Paging a TATA person?

[Anurag Bhatia]

Connected you off list with friends at Tata Comm.




On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 1:59 AM, Dan Mahoney  wrote:

> Someone in TATA networking, if you could please contact me off-list, I'd
> appreciate it.  This relates to my day job doing DNS things for ISC.
>
> -Dan
>
> --
>
> Dan Mahoney
> Techie,  Sysadmin,  WebGeek
> Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC
> FB:  fb.com/DanielMahoneyIV
> LI:   linkedin.com/in/gushi
> Site:  http://www.gushi.org
> ---
>
> --


Anurag Bhatia

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Sean Donelan]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, Mark Tinka wrote:
Satellite is hard to control, and there are several ways to get it into a 
country and have it function for purpose without any real drama.


It's where we came from :-)...


There is only one problem in engineering -- scaling.

Country internet shutdowns never go to zero.  There's usually 5% to 15% 
left over connectivity. There are always a few embassies, international 
companies, NGOs and even government offices itself with left over service.


Satellites (even next-gen) are great for small outposts, ships, oil 
platforms.  But have scaling problems, i.e. billing millions of customers 
without the government noticing.  Large capacity earth stations and 
cable landing sites are noticable.


The mobile phone carriers and ISPs serving the other million(s) customers 
will obey the government shutdown orders. Its very difficult (cost, 
techincally, access) for the ordinary consumer to get around their own 
government's orders.  Yes, the rich can always afford/get sat-phones and 
sat-modems.


When an autocratic government notices too many people using something 
else, it can become very painful for those subscribers.


And of course, international treaties (ITU) covering satellites and 
international radio transmissions are written by governments.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is the policy about sharing email offlist?

[Tom Beecher]

Everyone take a deep breath, calm down, and move on from this thread.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:22 AM Jeff P  wrote:

> I contacted you (and others) off list to avoid a public discussion on a
> board dedicated to the discussion of networking to call out your misogynist
> comment in a previous post with content that did not further any discussion
> relevant to networking... If the admins are interested in the full content
> of several messages that Javier J and I exchanged , I will provide the full
> email chains to provide context to the single email posted here to any who
> contacts me off list. But since you wish to make it a public discussion, I
> would like to call attention to your failure to follow the usage guidelines
> and code of conduct outlined in the NANOG terms of use as agreed to in
> subscribing to this list:
>
> https://www.nanog.org/about/code-conduct/
> https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
>
> I suggest any one who wants to threaten other users, leave misogynistic
> content, or leave irrelevant messages that are simply designed to degrade
> others should think twice before they post it on NANOG. And then just not
> do it. This is not the forum for that type of conversation. Please take it
> to Twitter or Gab or Parler or Facebook or your platform of choice, but
> NANOG as founded and conducted is for a technical discussion board for
> networking and is not the platform for that kind of content. It is a waste
> of time for those of us who are not interested in your opinion of any other
> subject not directly related to networking to have to read through a
> garbage post only to get slapped in the face with your lack of etiquette or
> sense of decorum. We all agreed to the rules, and we should all act
> accordingly.
>
> JeffP
> je...@jeffp.us
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 10:34 PM Javier J 
> wrote:
>
>> Why are you emailing me?
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:54 PM Jeff P  wrote:
>>
>>> SEE!?!
>>>
>>> With no evidence yet publicly acknowledged as to who added the AOC email
>>> to the list now they are just accusing some random "A woman!"
>>>
>>> Words (The Pen) are mightier than any brute force (The Sword).
>>>
>>> And you did it without thought, just piled on. It came as natural to you
>>> as putting on your shoes in the morning.
>>>
>>> JeffP
>>> je...@jeffp.us
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.*
>>>
>>> NOTICE:
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
>>> addressed. Use or dissemination by persons other than the intended
>>> recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
>>> error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail to correct our
>>> records. Please then delete the original message (including any
>>> attachments) in its entirety, including any backup processes that your
>>> system may perform. Please note that any views or opinions presented in
>>> this email are solely those of the author. Email transmission cannot be
>>> guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted,
>>> corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses.
>>> The sender, therefore, does not accept liability for any errors or
>>> omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of
>>> e-mail transmission.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Lorell Hathcock 
>>> Date: Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is
>>> the policy about sharing email offlist?
>>> To: Javier J 
>>> Cc: nanog 
>>>
>>>
>>> A-woman!
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Lorell Hathcock
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Javier J 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I agree 100%.
>>>
>>> I know the emails on this list are public and that is fine.  What I
>>> don't appreciate is that now my email address is in some politico's address
>>> list because of someone's behavior.
>>>
>>> - Javier
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:20 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:
>>>
 There's a world of difference between "don't expect list posts to be
 private to list members" and "don't forward the list to autoresponders."
 The stupidity of the latter, if it can be tracked down to who did it,
 should result in their removal from the list, at least until they
 explain
 what caused them to do that and have undone it.

 On Mon, 18 Jan 2021, Paul Timmins wrote:

 > The list has public archives. Draw your own conclusions on the policy.
 >
 > https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/
 >
 > On 1/18/21 2:40 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote:
 >>  Not under that impression at all. That's very different from "what
 is the
 >>  policy" - at least in the groups I run, if the policy is "no sharing
 >>  offlist" and then someone does, there are consequences for that
 

Call for Volunteers - 2021 IX-Denver Board Election

[Chris Grundemann]

Hail NANOG!

IX-Denver will be holding an election at our February 2021 members meeting.
The purpose of this election will be selecting three board members for one
year terms (2021) and four board members for two year terms (2021-2022). To
ensure that IX-Denver has the best possible leadership, we are now calling
for volunteers who are willing and able to serve our members as Directors.

Seven board seats are up for election in 2021

You can view all of the current board members here:

https://ix-denver.org/governance/board-of-directors/

We are seeking volunteers and nominations to fill these seven open board
seats. To be considered; please send: Name, email, and a brief biography to
peer...@ix-denver.org.

# Responsibilities

As an all volunteer organization, IX-Denver relies heavily on its Board of
Directors.

Some of the various tasks performed by current board members include:

* Financial planning and bookkeeping

* Setting strategic direction for the organization based on member input

* Providing technical leadership to the organization based on industry best
practices

* Proposing and conducting configuration changes, upgrades, new installs,
etc.

* Developing new and existing software tools

* Configuring member ports, route server sessions, etc.

* Communicating with members directly and via mailing lists

* Seeking out new members and partners and bringing them on-board

* Evangelizing the use of peering

* Website and social media updates

* Event planning and execution

* Accounts payable and accounts receivable

* Leading other volunteers

Not all members take on all of these tasks and this is not a comprehensive
list. You will need to commit at least 10 hours per month to this position
(2-4 hours per week), including monthly online board meetings. Twice a year
we meet in person (once that is practical again) for about a half a day.

Folks who live in Colorado and have Internet technology related experience
are preferred. Feel free to share this call with those you think are a
great fit.

# Important Dates

* 19 January 2021 - Call for Volunteers opens

* 4 February 2021 - Call for Volunteers closes

* 5 February 2021 - Slate of candidates announced

* 18 February 2021 - Members meeting and election

* 5 March 2021 - New Board announced

This information is also posted here:
https://ix-denver.org/governance/2021-election/

Thank you,

Chris Grundemann

Co-Founder, IX-Denver

-- 
@ChrisGrundemann
http://chrisgrundemann.com

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/19/21 16:28, Denys Fedoryshchenko wrote:



Starlink needs expensive modem, that is not only too expensive for 
such countries, hard to import, but can be also reason for very long 
prison sentence.
Some nanosatellite with amplified BLE compatible frontend might do 
miracles. It is impossible to block ISM band countrywide, anybody can 
climb a hill and point mobile to sky and receive regional news. No 
need even for custom software, just any software that can receive BLE 
data (development/debugging tools).
As kind of PoC, Norby cubesat with LoRa telemetry is being received 
over the world on 1000+km distances on DIY antennas.


Satellite is hard to control, and there are several ways to get it into 
a country and have it function for purpose without any real drama.


It's where we came from :-)...

Mark.

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Denys Fedoryshchenko]

On 2021-01-19 15:45, Mark Tinka wrote:

On 1/19/21 11:49, adamv0...@netconsultings.com wrote:

Hopefully starlink and other similar projects will help bring these 
numbers

down a bit.
But I think starlink has been already outlawed in some countries?


Moonshine satellite links abound in many places they shouldn't be.
It's cops & robbers stuff...

Mark.
Starlink needs expensive modem, that is not only too expensive for such 
countries, hard to import, but can be also reason for very long prison 
sentence.
Some nanosatellite with amplified BLE compatible frontend might do 
miracles. It is impossible to block ISM band countrywide, anybody can 
climb a hill and point mobile to sky and receive regional news. No need 
even for custom software, just any software that can receive BLE data 
(development/debugging tools).
As kind of PoC, Norby cubesat with LoRa telemetry is being received over 
the world on 1000+km distances on DIY antennas.

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/19/21 11:49, adamv0...@netconsultings.com wrote:


Hopefully starlink and other similar projects will help bring these numbers
down a bit.
But I think starlink has been already outlawed in some countries?


Moonshine satellite links abound in many places they shouldn't be. It's 
cops & robbers stuff...


Mark.

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/21 23:39, Alejandro Acosta wrote:



So sad to read this. How is it possible to think this is good to 
anybody?.., ok, maybe to the very high politicians of the country, but 
no one else. Not less than 44 million people negative affected.



That's it.


Just to give you a scale of the problem - ISP's were instructed to 
terminate services at their edge. So ATM's were also down, i.e., you 
can't pick up cash if you wanted to.


Mark.

Fwd: [apops] APRICOT 2021 call for presentations reminder

[Mark Tinka]

FYI.

Mark.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:[apops] APRICOT 2021 call for presentations reminder
Date:   Tue, 19 Jan 2021 17:59:19 +1000
From:   Philip Smith 
Organization:   Asia Pacific Regional Conference on Operational Technologies
To: ap...@apops.net



Hi everyone,

This is a short reminder that the call for papers for APRICOT 2021 is 
still open and the PC is eagerly awaiting your presentation or tutorial 
proposals. Please do not wait until the last minute, as the PC is 
filling the programme on a first-come first-served basis.


Please submit on-line at:

http://papers.apricot.net/user/login.php?event=128

Note that APRICOT 2021 is a virtual event, entirely on-line.

Because of this, the PC will only accept Peering and IXP Personals prior 
to the event starting. Submissions must be of a single slide listing the 
operator's PeeringDB entry. Please use the form at 
https://2021.apricot.net/program/peering-personals/ to submit your 
Peering or IXP Personal for APRICOT 2021.


Thanks!

philip
--
___
apops mailing list
ap...@apops.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apops
Website: www.apops.net
.

Re: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[Matthew Ford]

> On 18 Jan 2021, at 23:02, surfer  wrote:
> 
> ps.  So far, I know of https://internetshutdowns.in and
> netblocks.org. If anyone knows more than these that're
> updated regularly please let me know.  I am interested
> in 'real time' internet shutdowns globally.

https://insights.internetsociety.org/shutdowns is very much work-in-progress. 
With pages like https://insights.internetsociety.org/shutdowns/4992 we're 
trying to provide a curated archive of shutdown events. Not real time, but 
hopefully at least timely.

Feedback very welcome.

Mat

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is the policy about sharing email offlist?

[Jeff P]

I contacted you (and others) off list to avoid a public discussion on a
board dedicated to the discussion of networking to call out your misogynist
comment in a previous post with content that did not further any discussion
relevant to networking... If the admins are interested in the full content
of several messages that Javier J and I exchanged , I will provide the full
email chains to provide context to the single email posted here to any who
contacts me off list. But since you wish to make it a public discussion, I
would like to call attention to your failure to follow the usage guidelines
and code of conduct outlined in the NANOG terms of use as agreed to in
subscribing to this list:

https://www.nanog.org/about/code-conduct/
https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/

I suggest any one who wants to threaten other users, leave misogynistic
content, or leave irrelevant messages that are simply designed to degrade
others should think twice before they post it on NANOG. And then just not
do it. This is not the forum for that type of conversation. Please take it
to Twitter or Gab or Parler or Facebook or your platform of choice, but
NANOG as founded and conducted is for a technical discussion board for
networking and is not the platform for that kind of content. It is a waste
of time for those of us who are not interested in your opinion of any other
subject not directly related to networking to have to read through a
garbage post only to get slapped in the face with your lack of etiquette or
sense of decorum. We all agreed to the rules, and we should all act
accordingly.

JeffP
je...@jeffp.us

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 10:34 PM Javier J 
wrote:

> Why are you emailing me?
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:54 PM Jeff P  wrote:
>
>> SEE!?!
>>
>> With no evidence yet publicly acknowledged as to who added the AOC email
>> to the list now they are just accusing some random "A woman!"
>>
>> Words (The Pen) are mightier than any brute force (The Sword).
>>
>> And you did it without thought, just piled on. It came as natural to you
>> as putting on your shoes in the morning.
>>
>> JeffP
>> je...@jeffp.us
>>
>>
>>
>> *Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.*
>>
>> NOTICE:
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
>> addressed. Use or dissemination by persons other than the intended
>> recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
>> error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail to correct our
>> records. Please then delete the original message (including any
>> attachments) in its entirety, including any backup processes that your
>> system may perform. Please note that any views or opinions presented in
>> this email are solely those of the author. Email transmission cannot be
>> guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted,
>> corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses.
>> The sender, therefore, does not accept liability for any errors or
>> omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of
>> e-mail transmission.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Lorell Hathcock 
>> Date: Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is
>> the policy about sharing email offlist?
>> To: Javier J 
>> Cc: nanog 
>>
>>
>> A-woman!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Lorell Hathcock
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Javier J  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I agree 100%.
>>
>> I know the emails on this list are public and that is fine.  What I don't
>> appreciate is that now my email address is in some politico's address list
>> because of someone's behavior.
>>
>> - Javier
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:20 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> There's a world of difference between "don't expect list posts to be
>>> private to list members" and "don't forward the list to autoresponders."
>>> The stupidity of the latter, if it can be tracked down to who did it,
>>> should result in their removal from the list, at least until they
>>> explain
>>> what caused them to do that and have undone it.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021, Paul Timmins wrote:
>>>
>>> > The list has public archives. Draw your own conclusions on the policy.
>>> >
>>> > https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/
>>> >
>>> > On 1/18/21 2:40 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote:
>>> >>  Not under that impression at all. That's very different from "what
>>> is the
>>> >>  policy" - at least in the groups I run, if the policy is "no sharing
>>> >>  offlist" and then someone does, there are consequences for that
>>> someone.
>>> >>  Anne
>>> >>
>>> >>  --
>>> >>  Anne P. Mitchell,  Attorney at Law
>>> >>  Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
>>> >>  Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam
>>> law)
>>> >>  Board of Directors, Denver Internet 

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' Office is on NANOG?? Or, what is the policy about sharing email offlist?

[J. Hellenthal via NANOG]

Yeah he did the same dolt act to me to. Just a really bored dolt looking for 
nonsense with a crush on AOC.

-- 
 J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 00:40, Javier J  wrote:
> 
> 
> you too, why are you emailing me?
> 
> I didn't ask anyone to contact me off list.
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:53 PM Sam Silvester  
>> wrote:
>> Archives are browsable by anybody. How do you expect to keep political types 
>> out of the discussion?
>> 
>>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 11:36 am, Javier J  
>>> wrote:
>>> I couldn't agree more.
>>> If I want to talk politics, I will go to other places. I use this mailing 
>>> list to talk about things relevant to technology and operation of networks 
>>> in North American and other places.
>>> 
>>> - Javier
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:19 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:
 javier,
 
 I concur. What we don’t need on Nanog is outside parties deciding to 
 “reign in” our discussions on political grounds!
 
  -mel beckman
 
> On Jan 18, 2021, at 12:38 PM, Javier J  wrote:
> 
> 
> I agree 100%.
> 
> I know the emails on this list are public and that is fine.  What I don't 
> appreciate is that now my email address is in some politico's address 
> list because of someone's behavior.
> 
> - Javier
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:20 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:
>> There's a world of difference between "don't expect list posts to be 
>> private to list members" and "don't forward the list to autoresponders."
>> The stupidity of the latter, if it can be tracked down to who did it, 
>> should result in their removal from the list, at least until they 
>> explain 
>> what caused them to do that and have undone it.
>> 
>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2021, Paul Timmins wrote:
>> 
>> > The list has public archives. Draw your own conclusions on the policy.
>> >
>> > https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/
>> >
>> > On 1/18/21 2:40 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote:
>> >>  Not under that impression at all. That's very different from "what 
>> >> is the
>> >>  policy" - at least in the groups I run, if the policy is "no sharing
>> >>  offlist" and then someone does, there are consequences for that 
>> >> someone.
>> >>  Anne
>> >>
>> >>  --
>> >>  Anne P. Mitchell,  Attorney at Law
>> >>  Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
>> >>  Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam 
>> >> law)
>> >>  Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
>> >>  Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
>> >>  Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>> >> 
>> >
>> 
>> --
>>   Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
>>   StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
>> _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_

Re: Parler

[Masataka Ohta]

Eric Kuhnke wrote:


Googling "Rob Monster Epik" will tell you just about everything you need to
know about that organization.


It seems to me that that he is on the same side as Merkel means
the problem is not political one of right or left but that GAFA
administration is the fundamental evil.

To be purely technically, cloud is an intelligent intermediate
entity totally against the E2E principle and, thus, is the
fundamental evil.

Masataka Ohta

RE: Uganda Communications Commission shutdown order

[adamv0025]

> From: Sean Donelan
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 1:58 AM
> 
> In 2016, U.N. Human Rights Council, resolution A/HRC/RES/32/13: "condemns
> unequivocally measures to intentionally prevent or disrupt access to or
> dissemination of information online in violation of international human
rights
> law and calls on all States to refrain from and cease such measures".
> 
> https://thehill.com/policy/technology/286236-un-rights-council-condemns-
> internet-blocking
> 
> 
> Netblocks.org tracks internet shutdowns in near-realtime.  Access Now and
> Internet Society have been reporting on internet shutdowns for many years.
> 
> Top10VPN.com annual report give a reputable summary of intentional
> government internet shutdowns around the world.
> 
> https://www.top10vpn.com/cost-of-internet-shutdowns/
> The Global Cost of Internet Shutdowns in 2020
> 
> 93 major shutdowns took place in 21 countries in 2020
> 
> 27,165 hours: total duration of major disruptions around the world, up 49%
> from the previous year.
> Internet blackouts: 10,693 hours
> Internet throttling: 10,920 hours
> Social media shutdowns: 5,552 hours
>
Hopefully starlink and other similar projects will help bring these numbers
down a bit.
But I think starlink has been already outlawed in some countries? 


adam